Poll for Med Students: Exam Policies

FDoRoML · Aug 14, 2007

Hello To All Of My Fellow Medical Students!

I don't care what year you're in, as long as you've taken at least one examination. I'm conducting a survey on test policies and how students feel about them. Most specifically, I want to know if you're tests are proctored, if the rules are strict (they watch you like a hawk), is there more of an honor-system, etc. So, here goes... and please, provide comments for me regarding your feelings on your school's testing policies. I'm not injecting any of my personal bias into this poll question, but I certainly do have some!😀

Thanks,
FD

Test Procedures/Regulations at your Med School:
1. Can you come and go as you please during the exam?
2. Are there limited numbers of people allowed to leave during an exam (bathroom use, etc)?
3. Can you have food/drink during the exam (obviously, anatomy practicals excluded!)?
4. Do they explain an "honor code" and ask you to follow it regarding honesty/cheating?
5. Are you allowed to have bookbags/books/jackets/etc near you (whether on the desk or below it) for non-open book exams?
6. Is there a proctor watching your every move like a hawk?
7. Have you ever witnessed cheating during an exam (rumor mill not included!)?
8. Do you feel your school's testing procedures are demeaning or treat you like children/criminals (as in, they seem to EXPECT you will cheat)?
9. Do you feel your school's testing procedures uphold the idea of a civilized system and professionalism (AKA Honor System)?

Doctor Bagel · Aug 14, 2007

We are allowed to leave to go to the bathroom or drink from the drinking fountain provided that we stay within the part of the building close to the lecture hall. I think technically they can limit who leaves, but I've never seen that -- generally you just get up when you need to go. We cannot have drinks or food with us, and we're not supposed to take our bags into the examination room. However, sometimes this is allowed provided that you leave your bags at the front of the room. There's always a proctor, but I don't think they watch us hawkishly. Lots of times they're reading, using their computer or whatever.

I've never seen cheating, but I haven't been looking for it either. I generally try to keep my eyes on my own test. Umm, I guess I would say our rules are fair and not demeaning.

My main complaint is that our lecture room is small, so it's always crowded when you take exams. I'd like more room to spread out. Also, we're generally not allowed to review exams I guess out of fear that people will share questions with the next class. That makes it hard to make complaints about poorly written/wrong questions.

FDoRoML · Aug 15, 2007

Thanks to all who have voted already, and to Bagel for posting some thoughts. I'm just bumping to get more votes. You guys are great! 😍

Anyone with comments who goes to an "Ivy" vs someone who goes to a state school, I'd be interested to hear if there's a major difference between state vs private schools, etc. I personally know of one Ivy that is totally on the honor system, and a state school that is rather like 1940s Germany. I do wonder if this is perhaps a global quality, that Ivies seem to uphold the idea of professionalism and self-regulation (or not offending potential benefactors?).

smq123 · Aug 15, 2007

FDoRoML said:
Anyone with comments who goes to an "Ivy" vs someone who goes to a state school, I'd be interested to hear if there's a major difference between state vs private schools, etc. I personally know of one Ivy that is totally on the honor system, and a state school that is rather like 1940s Germany. I do wonder if this is perhaps a global quality, that Ivies seem to uphold the idea of professionalism and self-regulation (or not offending potential benefactors?).

I wonder how much of it has to do with preparing their students for the Step 1 atmosphere. My school went on the honor code - proctors outside of the room, freedom to take bathroom breaks whenever, food and drink inside the room, etc. Preparing for Step 1 was a huge difference. The Step 1 testing center did everything besides pat me down when I took the exam. You can only go to the bathroom in between sections (you can't step out whenever you feel like it), no food or drink in the computer room, and cameras everywhere. (Oh yeah, and no scrap paper either!) Totally different from my school's testing atmosphere.

FDoRoML · Aug 16, 2007

I agree that this is partially what they're thinking. But, we've been through an MCAT, right? We've taken other standardized exams... so, how is prepping for the USMLEs' highly regulated conditions really helping? Preparing for Step 1 (etc) is sort of a different animal completely and it deserves special comment. I guess the idea is, it seems to me more "upper echelon" schools seem to be treating their students more like colleagues, and professionals. Part of the proctored and really tight conditions at some schools are explicitly explained as "to discourage cheating" and it feels as such to the students. It seems that holding med students to a higher standard NOW will make them understand their responsibility and allow them to enjoy a mutual respect that comes with the profession. Plus, really, cheaters will always find a way to cheat. An honor code allows students to self-regulate, I think. The level of indignation that is felt by someone witnessing cheating when on an honor code is somehow higher than when being in an environment where conditions are strict.

smq123 said:
I wonder how much of it has to do with preparing their students for the Step 1 atmosphere. My school went on the honor code - proctors outside of the room, freedom to take bathroom breaks whenever, food and drink inside the room, etc. Preparing for Step 1 was a huge difference. The Step 1 testing center did everything besides pat me down when I took the exam. You can only go to the bathroom in between sections (you can't step out whenever you feel like it), no food or drink in the computer room, and cameras everywhere. (Oh yeah, and no scrap paper either!) Totally different from my school's testing atmosphere.

FDoRoML · Aug 16, 2007

Thought I'd bump for more votes and comments. I will probably keep this poll active for the next few weeks, until perhaps everyone (even 1st years) have had a chance to take exams.

Also, any other comments are both welcomed and appreciated. You guys/gals are really helping to build a picture, across multiple schools, what regular exam conditions are like. 👍

RockShox · Aug 16, 2007

I am not trying to be ridiculous but I assume you mean non-shelf exams as our rules are much more lax than the NBME.

45408 · Aug 16, 2007

For our regular exams, we're split in two groups, and you can only leave to go to the bathroom. All bags have to be in the aisles (not near you), and the procters just sit in the front of the room. On our computerized exams, they ID everybody going into the room, you have to leave your bags in the hallway, and our monitors have the screens on them that prevent people next to you from seeing what's on your monitor. You can have snacks/soda with you.

I think it's reasonable/fair. I know that I wouldn't cheat on an exam (it's my $30,000 a year I'm spending, and you can't really cheat on the boards), but it's nice to know that nobody else is either (or at least, 99% of them aren't). If someone else is cheating, it throws off the average and could potentially affect my final grade. That's not fair, but with our testing conditions, that's also extremely unlikely.

Non-TradTulsa · Aug 16, 2007

Dr. Bagel and I share a medical school. We're allowed to leave to go to the bathroom on the honor system - the only thing I would find too demeaning is if I couldn't have some privacy in a stall - theoretically, you could look at some notes while on the potty. Bags aren't allowed in the exam room, although some instructors do allow us to leave them at the front of the auditorium. There is a test form "A" and "B", which alternates by seat since we're so close together (same exam - different order of questions). We get a tear sheet where you can record your answers for when the key is posted and you can jot notes on questions you want to challenge, if you have enough time to write out some notes.

It would be nice if we were allowed a bottle of water, but we're not. I am a Nicorette fiend even though I quit smoking in 2001 - I unwrap 2-3 pieces for a long exam and put them out with my pencils - nobody has ever challenged that, and I even asked a professor who had a rep for rigidly following the rules last year. We are not allowed ball caps, which is bad if you didn't have time to shower - although I know one guy who has wrapped his hair in a bandana, and nothing was said.

The rules are pretty strict, but in an auditorium with 170 seats on seven levels, there would be plenty of opportunities for misbehavior if it wasn't that way, so I think our rules are mostly reasonable. With the strict rules, at least the proctors stay at the front of the room and don't walk around, which would drive me ape.

What bugs me a lot more is the luck of the draw as to who I'm sitting by (we have random, computer-assigned seating). One guy last year kept having long sighs, snorts, and various swear words and entreaties to a higher power under his breath during the exam. He also kept shifting in his seat and went to the bathroom at least three times during the exam. I was ready to haul off and knock him out of his chair - it really interrupted my concentration.

I honestly can't imagine cheating on a med school exam. There's way, way too much on the line. People do get desperate, I guess.

FDoRoML · Aug 17, 2007

Oh, yes, I probably should have specified "regular exams during the preclinical years". I wasn't really considering shelf exams, or any other standardized exam (which I assume comes with a heightened level of security, anyway).

RockShox said:
I am not trying to be ridiculous but I assume you mean non-shelf exams as our rules are much more lax than the NBME.

FDoRoML · Aug 18, 2007

I appreciate everyone's vote and comments so far. I am always amazed at the variance of methods, specifically the school's assumption of how they need to control cheating. At schools entirely on the honor code, even if one ***** tries to cheat, it's reasonable to expect other students to call him/her on it. After all, they like a level playing field and it's kind of frightening to think about a cheater as a future physician. Would you want them as your doc? Would you, even as a student, want one of them as your partner on the wards? Probably not, so short of being a rat, I imagine there are student-student interactions to control cheating. I guess what surprises me, as an older student, is how strict some schools can be but they seem to all come out with the same level of cheaters as those totally lax and on the honor code-- probably < 1%.

So, for those who've come from undergrad institutions on the honor code, and gone to med schools that had strict testing conditions, was it a shock? What about the opposite (people who came from strict undergrad testing conditions to an all-honor-code med school where they may be a proctor but you can eat/drink, go to the bathroom when you need to, etc)? I'm just curious what the transition was like.

logos · Aug 18, 2007

We do bags outside the room, no food/drinks, only one person out of the room to the restroom at any one time. There are sheilds that make it impossible to see the computer of the person next to you and it wouldnt matter anyway because everyones questions are randomized differently anyway. Two or three procters in the room watching the whole time. There is even a whole office within the school devoted to testing, with a few employees.

MrBurns10 · Aug 18, 2007

Our testing procedures seem to be much more lax than the previous posters'. We take our tests in our lab rooms, where we have 16 people per room. There are usually no proctors, and the profs stay in a general area where you can go and ask questions. People can leave as frequently as they want to go to the bathroom since no one really knows anyway. People can drink or munch on something if they get hungry, and I had one classmate that sat next to me that would wear big bose headphones during the test to minimize distractions. We also can show up to the exam anytime between 9 and 12, provided you finish the test by noon (most would get there on-time to have the full time allotted).

We take our tests online and they're password protected, so that helps with security. Even when concerns were raised that a couple people might be texting the password to classmates so they could access the test from at home, things didn't really change. For the most part, I have a very conscientious class.

lord_jeebus · Aug 18, 2007

FDoRoML said:
So, for those who've come from undergrad institutions on the honor code, and gone to med schools that had strict testing conditions, was it a shock?

It was refreshing.

I knew that the Honor Code meant nothing to a significant minority of premeds at my undergrad and cheating was probably rampant. As a student it's hard to actually catch someone in the act when there are no proctors unless they are really stupid about it, yet a number of people managed to get caught in many of the premed courses I took. I often found myself in situations where I realized that I could cheat and easily get away with it, and knew that everyone else was in the same position.

I trust most people in my med school class, but I know that they are ex-premeds and that there are probably some who would exploit an honor code. I would rather deal with a test proctor than wonder if I would have gotten honors in a course (capped at 15% of the class) if not for a few cheaters.

I do think some restrictions (eg. water bottles) are stupid, but my school just has proctors and restrictions on how many can go to the bathroom at once, which I think is perfectly reasonable.

FDoRoML · Aug 20, 2007

I'm really surprised at the variability of responses. The general consensus seems to be that *most* people haven't seen cheating regardless of the testing policy. Certainly, I saw plenty of wundergrad premeds being rather, er, dishonest to get those top grades. And I do often wonder if these people made it to med school (providing that interviewers didn't pick up on a personality issue) and, if so, are they around me thinking of doing the same now?

I've always assured myself that certain people would find a way to cheat no matter what conditions you imposed (short of retinal scans, perhaps). But I have hopes that even those people try to do so in the preclinical years that it will be nothing but obvious to their attendings when they hit the clinics. You really can't cheat your way through personal interactions-- unless your attending isn't paying attention or something. You can't scrub out to go read something and scrub back in to answer the surgeon's question mid-operation.

soleluna · Aug 21, 2007

Test Procedures/Regulations at your Med School:
1. Can you come and go as you please during the exam? During written exams no one is allowed to leave the room, not even to go to the bathroom
2. Are there limited numbers of people allowed to leave during an exam (bathroom use, etc)? No
3. Can you have food/drink during the exam (obviously, anatomy practicals excluded!)? Yes we can have bottled water. We don't have an anatomy practical exam though
4. Do they explain an "honor code" and ask you to follow it regarding honesty/cheating? Not really, but it's clear that there is one
5. Are you allowed to have bookbags/books/jackets/etc near you (whether on the desk or below it) for non-open book exams? We are. They trust the fact that we won't open then. Anyway, we don't have any open book exams.
6. Is there a proctor watching your every move like a hawk? There is
7. Have you ever witnessed cheating during an exam (rumor mill not included!)? I have
8. Do you feel your school's testing procedures are demeaning or treat you like children/criminals (as in, they seem to EXPECT you will cheat)? Yes
9. Do you feel your school's testing procedures uphold the idea of a civilized system and professionalism (AKA Honor System)? Not really

Anyway, here we have mostly oral exams. We have to go under at least 2, sometimes up to 5 professors. Each one asks you a couple of questions, and you talk with him/her for about 40 minutes.
We don't have an anatomy practical TEST, and we don't dissect.

We start rounds in the hospital during 4th year, and then we have practical exams on top of the oral ones.

If we have written exams, we always have the oral afterwards (except for physiopathology).

We don't have any open book exams

abraxas20 · Aug 23, 2007

I think our procedures are inconsistent and childish...

Test Procedures/Regulations at your Med School:
1. Can you come and go as you please during the exam?

In some of our exams. Pharm asked that only 1 girl and 1 guy be out at a time, but I never saw them enforce it.

2. Are there limited numbers of people allowed to leave during an exam (bathroom use, etc)?

Other than the above. Sometimes, I would go walk around the hospital hallways to clear my head during long exams.

3. Can you have food/drink during the exam (obviously, anatomy practicals excluded!)?

I don't remember much food other than granola bars, but water and sodas were a necessity.

4. Do they explain an "honor code" and ask you to follow it regarding honesty/cheating?

Explain, belabor...We sign it on every exam. Admin has some strange attitudes about what constitutes "professional" behavior though. (Our cheating honor code is part of a larger professional code).

5. Are you allowed to have bookbags/books/jackets/etc near you (whether on the desk or below it) for non-open book exams?

Again, this is inconsistent. In some tests (Path, Introduction to the Medical Profession, all lab exams).

6. Is there a proctor watching your every move like a hawk?

There are proctors. They watch some. In one of our last exams last year, one of the proctors had her iPod turned up so high one student asked her to turn it down. Of course the prof was there proctoring also...

7. Have you ever witnessed cheating during an exam (rumor mill not included!)?

Nope

8. Do you feel your school's testing procedures are demeaning or treat you like children/criminals (as in, they seem to EXPECT you will cheat)?

I think they do expect it. They make us sign an honor code and lecture us about it, but don't believe that we will follow it and hence make us put bags in front of the room and put proctors in the exams. Seriously, who would cheat from their stuff in a room of >100 people.

9. Do you feel your school's testing procedures uphold the idea of a civilized system and professionalism (AKA Honor System)?

I think the system could work, it just doesn't right now.

FDoRoML · Aug 23, 2007

abraxas20 said:
I think our procedures are inconsistent and childish...

Yeah, I know what you mean. As a non-trad (2nd career), I found it pretty demeaning to have people assume I'd cheat. Or to even assume that the rest of us wouldn't somehow influence a cheater to the path of righteousness 😛 . I also spent a lot of time in other academic institutions where they really taught the honor code and went by it-- students were given the freedom (a sign of respect, I thought) and most were nothing but honest. Also, certainly, the cheaters within a system like this are most often turned in (in my experience).

I do see the continuing pressure to "do better than everyone else" (the pre-med mindset) because of worries about residency, but in most med school curricula there is a way to evaluate students outside of the lecture hall... where the cheaters and phonies will be found out and not evaluated well. Perhaps there is some leftover pre-med thinking in the 1st year, but I personally think it's better for the profession to try and teach them the proper way to operate (pun intended) among their peers. After all, we're either hoping that they will "grow out of it" by the time they finish residency or, the scarier scenario, who will be holding their hands when they're caring autonomously for patients? 😱 (hence, my personal belief to start/continue proper behaviors from MS1)

FDoRoML · Aug 25, 2007

<bumping> for more votes... trying to hit a nice even 100!
😳

alwaysaangel · Aug 25, 2007

1. Can you come and go as you please during the exam?
Yup, we were told we are adults and they are trusting us not to have notes in the bathroom.
2. Are there limited numbers of people allowed to leave during an exam (bathroom use, etc)?
Not that I know of - but I'm sure if it was excessive it would raise eyebrows.
3. Can you have food/drink during the exam (obviously, anatomy practicals excluded!)?
Yup
4. Do they explain an "honor code" and ask you to follow it regarding honesty/cheating?
Yup
5. Are you allowed to have bookbags/books/jackets/etc near you (whether on the desk or below it) for non-open book exams?
Yeah as long as the biochem book isn't open on your desk they don't care - we were even told we're allowed to wear our ipods while taking the test if we wanted.
6. Is there a proctor watching your every move like a hawk?
There are proctors but they're more doing there own work and there to make sure there were no major problems than watching for cheating.

7. Have you ever witnessed cheating during an exam (rumor mill not included!)?
Not yet
8. Do you feel your school's testing procedures are demeaning or treat you like children/criminals (as in, they seem to EXPECT you will cheat)?
Nope
9. Do you feel your school's testing procedures uphold the idea of a civilized system and professionalism (AKA Honor System)?
Yeah I think its closer to this - they assume we are honest, ethical adults who will someday be doctors and they treat us like that.

FDoRoML · Aug 27, 2007

flindophile said:
Questionaires generally work better if the items are mutually exclusive.

Uh, thanks, but the way SDN generates polls wasn't conducive to mutually exclusive questions in this case. I figured this was better than linking out to an external site like survey monkey... ideally I'd like to compare some of the answers exclusively, but that's not a luxury of this polling generator. Hm, admins, can you make it better?😉

lord_jeebus · Aug 27, 2007

Perhaps I should just let this thread die, but for those who believe that strict testing conditions mean an assumption that you are going to cheat, do you believe that the boards should be administered under an Honor Code?

If not, what is the difference? Although one is more difficult and important, both are tests that determine whether or not you meet some of the requirements necessary to be a licensed doctor.

FDoRoML · Aug 28, 2007

lord_jeebus said:
Perhaps I should just let this thread die, but for those who believe that strict testing conditions mean an assumption that you are going to cheat, do you believe that the boards should be administered under an Honor Code?

If not, what is the difference? Although one is more difficult and important, both are tests that determine whether or not you meet some of the requirements necessary to be a licensed doctor.

While yes, theoretically there should be an honor code that everyone abides by, it's ridiculous to assume people would. First, the stakes are MUCH higher than a once every three weeks med school exam. Second, the boards are taken at testing centers-- inherent issues there would be that people don't know the students and the students often don't know each other. Clearly there is more opportunity to be dishonest and, given the stakes, more motivation (it wouldn't be unheard of for someone to consider paying a ringer to take the exam for them). Third, the boards are standardized exams and should be taken under standardized conditions... a level playing field for everyone across the country. I think they find it easier to drown test-takers in the procedures for security of the exam. This discourages people trying to take it in order to sell questions/answers and also discourages many other forms of dishonesty. If it was an honor code, I can only imagine all the crazy things people might try (med students and NON-med students).

The big difference I think is that med schools are held responsible for teaching us the "big competencies", right? Professionalism being one of them. I think using the honor code in a setting like med school, where everyone knows everyone else, and penalty of being caught cheating is "you are OUT, no exceptions", seems like a good place to start assuring we display professionalism. But, that's just me. I know not everyone is honest but I think if we have that many dishonest people getting into med school, there's an inherent flaw in the admissions process; something that needs to be fixed.

CCLCMer · Sep 1, 2007

None of the above. We don't have exams at CCLCM. 🙂

VeerTheTIGuy · Sep 4, 2007

for us, no one is allowed to leave in the first and last half hour of the exam (in a 2 hour exam)

Depakote · Sep 5, 2007

My school has a very strict exam policy... mainly designed to simulate the USMLE.

No bags, everyone in assigned seats, strict no cell phone rules... bands of proctors scouring the isles.

It's a bit of a hassle, but it isn't that bad. I guess by the time step I rolls around I'll be pretty much used to it.

Orthodoc40 · Sep 18, 2007

Definitely can't come & go. You can go & not come back. During certain times, that is. (For 1 class, not 'til 1 hr is up, & not w/in a half hour before it is over.) No books, no bags, they make any hat wearers turn the cap so it faces behind them. We come in and the exams are already on the desks, spaced out around the room. We have to show our ID when we hand in the exam. Several proctors roam the room.

Haven't seen cheating but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it happens, SOMEhow. How? I don't know exactly - they give us 2 or 3 different versions of the tests.

soleluna · Sep 19, 2007

Orthodoc40 said:
No books, no bags, they make any hat wearers turn the cap so it faces behind them.

This sounded really weird for me, since in Italy it's REALLY rude to wear hats indoors and I thought this was the rule in the US also.
We can't wear hats indoors at university!

Orthodoc40 · Sep 19, 2007

soleluna said:
This sounded really weird for me, since in Italy it's REALLY rude to wear hats indoors and I thought this was the rule in the US also.
We can't wear hats indoors at university!

After the 1st test, you'd figure people would think to just leave 'em off!
Maybe they turn them around for the people sitting behind them, though :laugh:

FDoRoML · Sep 19, 2007

soleluna said:
This sounded really weird for me, since in Italy it's REALLY rude to wear hats indoors and I thought this was the rule in the US also.
We can't wear hats indoors at university!

That's amusing (well, in a warped sort of way my mind works). Yes, it is absolutely against proper etiquette in the US to wear hats indoors. But we're also a rather casual society, especially in the university setting. It's not unusual to see people in their pajamas (and hats) rolling into lecture. Perhaps my warped sense of humor laughed at it b/c hats indoors were always a peeve of my grandmother (and subsequently, my father)... they got absolutely irate about it. 😀

soleluna · Sep 19, 2007

I hope you are kidding abou the pajamas..😱

Orthodoc40 · Sep 19, 2007

Some styles in stores look like PJs - it wouldn't surprise me these days! 🙄

soleluna · Sep 20, 2007

I feel like an old prude.. an old lady with hat hat and violet perfume :laugh:

I am not conservative, but I would't wear hats or pajama styled things to class. At all.

FDoRoML · Sep 20, 2007

Oh, I meant in undergrad universities it is not unusual at all to see people (no, I'm not kidding) in their pajamas. Not nightgowns or anything crazy like that, but your average flannel PJs are seen in early morning lectures regularly at some places. At med school I have seen an occasional person looking like they just rolled out of bed in sweats or yoga attire, but I don't recall the flannel PJs (thank goodness!). But yes, hats abound.

You know it's bad when we have clinical skills days where ~1/3 to 1/2 of the class will be in the clinic seeing patients, so they dress appropriately-- the major comment from faculty who don't realize what's going on is "why is everyone so dressed up today?" Sad.😛

Orthodoc40 · Sep 20, 2007

That IS sad!!!

Real PJ's? Good Lord. In HS I used to have a recurring nightmare I showed up at school in my PJ's by accident!!!! 😱

Poll for Med Students: Exam Policies

What are your med school's exam policies?

I can come and go as I please during an exam.

They limit the number of people allowed to leave during an exam.

I can have food/drink during the exam.

They tell us about an honor code and we are expected to follow it.

I can have bags/books/etc near me during the exam (but I'm trusted not to look at them).

There is a proctor who is there mainly to watch for cheating during the exam.

I have personally witnessed cheating by fellow med students.

My school's exam procedures are demeaning and they seem to treat us like children or criminals.

My school's exam policy upholds the idea of a civilized society and promotes professionalism.

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