Rocky Vista Non-applicant related discussion and opinions

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gilbertjgreen

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As a hopeful matriculant with a fall of 2008 class, I was initially excited about the opening of Rocky Vista. In fact, my wife, who has always wanted to live in Colorado had dreamed not two months earlier about the possibility of my going to school in this state. At the time, she and I both knew that this wasn't a possibility. When I made a random search some two months later for, "colorado osteopathic school," and saw that Rocky Vista was already planned and underway, it was as if a dream had been answered!
But I have since read posts from pre-meds, osteopathic students, and D.O.'s on this forum decrying the opening of this school. I must admit, this has given me pause. I never bought the argument that the tax status of a school will affect its dedication to its students, but I was particularly affected by the assertion made that graduates of this school would be looked down upon. I don't believe this will be the case, but nonetheless, it was somewhat disheartening.
I took a look at their updated website today and, I'll be honest, was impressed with their response in a section under the "About RVUCOM" tab, titled "Addressing For Profit Status." Has anyone else read this? What are your impressions?
 
gilbertjgreen said:
As a hopeful matriculant with a fall of 2008 class, I was initially excited about the opening of Rocky Vista. In fact, my wife, who has always wanted to live in Colorado had dreamed not two months earlier about the possibility of my going to school in this state. Being a osteopathic hopeful, I knew that, at the time, this wasn't a possibility. When I made a random search some two months later for, "colorado osteopathic school," and saw that Rocky Vista was in the works, it was as if a dream had been answered!
Click to expand...

as long as your check clear syou shouldn't have a problem
 
yeah, i posted that accidentally before the entire thought was out.
 
JonnyG said:
as long as your check clear syou shouldn't have a problem
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If you take a look at their website, you'll see that they're hardly forsaking quality for the bottom line:

"
4. Preference will be given to students with a GPA of 3.25 or higher in the sciences and a cumulative grade point average (GPA) of 3.25 or higher.
  1. Note: On the average, students admitted to colleges of osteopathic medicine each of the past three years have GPA > 3.4.

5. All applicants are required to take the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) within two (2) years of application.
  1. Note: On the average, students admitted to colleges of osteopathic medicine have MCAT scores > 24.
    a. Scores of < 6 in any component of the MCAT are not acceptable for admission consideration.
    b. Score of M in writing is considered minimal
"
Although these parameters may not necessarily be an indicator of the exact statistics of the incoming class, such expectations certainly put this school on academic par with other osteopathic institutions:
http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm
 
cyclohexanol said:
Well then... apparently there are nooooo problems whatsoever, so just apply already.

Or marry the school... I can't really tell what your intent is.
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Are we in middle school? Seriously.

I posted because after I saw the new site, I jumped on the Pre-D.O. forum expecting to see a million posts over this thing. Seems like there were a ton about a month ago in opposition, but now nothing. And don't tell me it's because people are over it, or don't care, or have given up, or whatever. . .

Feelings were strong enough a month ago that I was expecting SOMETHING. So I started the post to create a dialogue.
 
cyclohexanol said:
Well then... apparently there are nooooo problems whatsoever, so just apply already.

Or marry the school... I can't really tell what your intent is.
Click to expand...

By conjuncture or not, what problems can you ascribe to this school's tax status?

I really am trying to make an informed decision.
 
gilbertjgreen said:
If you take a look at their website, you'll see that they're hardly forsaking quality for the bottom line:

4. Preference will be given to students with a GPA of 3.25 or higher in the sciences and a cumulative grade point average (GPA) of 3.25 or higher.
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Actually, preference will be given to being profitable because that is the obligation a "for profit" company owes to its shareholders. Any school would admit the most qualified candidates first. The difference is that a traditional school will limit admissions to "only" qualified candidates. A "for profit" school will by its nature need to fill its quota of students regardless of how low the qualifications of the entering class.
 
cyclohexanol said:
I don't know, I guess middle schoolers might create discussions for the sole purpose of answering their own questions in what seems like a weak disguise for an advertisement. :idea: If that is the case, then yes, we are in middle school.
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It's apparent you don't like this school, that's fine. I'm not a rep.

I don't think middle schoolers make arguments in this structure. I do think they resort to childish impulses, as they are still very much close to childhood. Use of the "marry" jab, even in the ironic sense, seems tired and silly as you get into adulthood.

I did get off-topic in asking about "problems" created with their for-profit status. I've read all the arguments made against this school. My OP asked whether anyone had read the "Addressing For Profit Status" letter mentioned, because it seems that after so much conflaguration over the school's for-profit status (which, mind you, I lent an open ear to), someone would like to read what the opposition has to say.
 
Actually, for reasons completely related to triathlon, and not at all related to the study of medicine, I would love to go to school in colorado
 
gilbertjgreen said:
My OP asked whether anyone had read the "Addressing For Profit Status" letter mentioned, because it seems that after so much conflaguration over the school's for-profit status (which, mind you, I lent an open ear to), someone would like to read what the opposition has to say.
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Yes, I have read the "addressing for profit status" letter when it was posted on the AOA blog last week. I don't put much stock in a letter "addressing for profit status" written by a paid representative of a for profit organization.


gilbertjgreen said:
Use of the "marry" jab, even in the ironic sense, seems tired and silly as you get into adulthood.
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Says you.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
Actually, for reasons completely related to triathlon, and not at all related to the study of medicine, I would love to go to school in colorado
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Is it possible to maintain the disciplined regimen you need to be competive, and go to med school at the same time?
 
Not the way I'm doing it now, but I think I'll at least be able to maintain my cardio base, and maybe even sneak in a race from time to time
 
StrengthDoc said:
Actually, preference will be given to being profitable because that is the obligation a "for profit" company owes to its shareholders. Any school would admit the most qualified candidates first. The difference is that a traditional school will limit admissions to "only" qualified candidates. A "for profit" school will by its nature need to fill its quota of students regardless of how low the qualifications of the entering class.
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Thanks for your more constructive response to my question. I'll be interested to see if this is indeed the case, and they fall to the bottom of the osteopathic rankings.

I guess people are just tired of arguing about this one, which is fine with me, since this has already exhausted me. I really don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but, like many, am interested in the ways this status will affect them.
 
The arguments against RVU have been posted in numerous posts here (Pre-Osteo) and in the Osteo forums. A search will reveal a plethora of information.

Just remember that just because a website says "preference will be given" does not necessarily mean that the admission committee will adhere to the standards (esp if there are outside pressure to admit more to increase yield/attendance).

And yes, graduates of for-profit schools do face discrimination. If you have friends in the IT world, ask them about their opinions of grads from University of Phoenix, DeVry, ITT Tech, etc. If you have friends in business, ask them about their opinions on grads who received their MBA from University of Phoenix, DeVry, etc.

In another post of mine, I posted a summary of a research done by a former Stanford Business professor (now lecturer at Stanford) on the differences between For-Profit schools and not-for-profit schools - it's a lot more than just tax status (ask yourself this, if it is just tax status, why would the owner(s) not seek non-profit status? Surely having reduced tax burden is preferable when running a school? And being able to offer tax deduction to potential donors is a big perk that RVU won't be able to do? How will the school raise money for new buildings, research lab (if any), student centers, etc)

The take-home message is to view everything with a grain of salt. The school website is advertising itself so everything will be in the best possible light. Detractors will certainly have strong opinions so keep that in mind. You are doing the right thing by researching the school and seeking viewpoints from others.
 
The funny thing is that I feel myself getting pigeon-holed as some kind of for-profit supporter, which I'm reallty not. If it's bad for osteopathic medicine, than I'm not into it.
It's simply the case that there are many students like myself with a genuine interest in osteopathic medicine who, of course, would like any available opportunity to enter medical school.
The most compelling argument I've heard against RVUCOM, more than the case of stigma or lack of academic purity, is the potential for too many MDs/DOs and not enough residencies.
The question is, will the existence of one for-profit school create a domino effect? My sense is no. I mean, there was bound to be a school in the Rockies. If you looked at a map of DO schools in the US before Aug. 27th, you saw a big gap in the Rockies.
With the need for doctors, in general, to grow in the next ten years, is this residency shortage a real possibility?
 
gilbertjgreen said:
With the need for doctors, in general, to grow in the next ten years, is this residency shortage a real possibility?
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Some view RVU as a branch campus of AUC since it is being own and run by the same family that runs AUC (and even mentions the possibility of recruiting faculty from AUC to help out). If RVU succeeds, then expect other offshore operations to try their hand at this (it's easier to advertise your school when you can say you are in the US and don't have to worry about visa or licensure issues). Look at the new schools overseas that have just started up ... some with questionable charter issues, and others whose alumni cannot get licensed in ALL 50 states.

In terms of residency ... the funding for residency spots in the US is fixed thanks to the Congressional balanced budget act of 1997. With US MD schools increasing their enrollment numbers, an explosion of new DO schools, and expected surge in foreign graduates (thanks to new tougher standards in the UK) ... you have a fixed number of spots (at 1997 level) but a huge increase in applicants. What do you think the result will be?
 
group_theory said:
The arguments against RVU have been posted in numerous posts here (Pre-Osteo) and in the Osteo forums. A search will reveal a plethora of information.

Just remember that just because a website says "preference will be given" does not necessarily mean that the admission committee will adhere to the standards (esp if there are outside pressure to admit more to increase yield/attendance).

And yes, graduates of for-profit schools do face discrimination. If you have friends in the IT world, ask them about their opinions of grads from University of Phoenix, DeVry, ITT Tech, etc. If you have friends in business, ask them about their opinions on grads who received their MBA from University of Phoenix, DeVry, etc.

In another post of mine, I posted a summary of a research done by a former Stanford Business professor (now lecturer at Stanford) on the differences between For-Profit schools and not-for-profit schools - it's a lot more than just tax status (ask yourself this, if it is just tax status, why would the owner(s) not seek non-profit status? Surely having reduced tax burden is preferable when running a school? And being able to offer tax deduction to potential donors is a big perk that RVU won't be able to do? How will the school raise money for new buildings, research lab (if any), student centers, etc)

The take-home message is to view everything with a grain of salt. The school website is advertising itself so everything will be in the best possible light. Detractors will certainly have strong opinions so keep that in mind. You are doing the right thing by researching the school and seeking viewpoints from others.
Click to expand...

Great response. I appreciate it. There's no question a for-profit is for profit. I guess this is one of those "big moments" in osteopathic medicine. As such, I understand the heat people have behind their statements. I'm excited to be (hopefully, pending MCAT, etc.) entering this field, and would like to be a part of it for the best of intentions. I certainly wouldn't want to be an unwitting participant in the degradation of osteopathic medicine.
 
I'm still undecided currently, but I learning more towards the no side.
 
rocky-arms-l-poster.jpg
 
I'm not as much concerned with RVU as with the potential for many more for-profit universities opening up. I understand that there is a large need for physicians, but if a flood of for-profit DO Universities open up, won't the standards fall? I'm unsure about RVU, I can see both sides. Many of the existing Universities are pretty much for-profit anyways. However, I don't think people should attend RVU just because it's the only one they can get into. This is the worry...

I guess time will tell, I would have looked more kindly on RVU if they pursued traditional status as non-profit. I have chosen no to apply there mainly because of the doubt. Many believe this could be the fate of Osteopathic physicians.
 
gilbertjgreen said:
...It's simply the case that there are many students like myself with a genuine interest in osteopathic medicine who, of course, would like any available opportunity to enter medical school...
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That's the reason why I think that RVU will still have plenty of quality applicants. Don't get me wrong, because I'm in total disagreement with a for-profit school in principle, but now that it's pretty much a done deal I'm not going to treat its future graduates any differently. If they can pass all three steps of COMLEX then they deserve to be called a DO. People choose schools for many reasons and people will choose RVU just like any other place. The thing that I don't want to do is to make future RVU graduates feel like second-class citizens. DOs have always been a lot like a fraternity or sorority in many ways. The thing we need least is a lot of in-fighting amongst ourselves. If you really want to stop this in the future then join the AOA organization and let your voice be heard. Become a local or state officer and work you way up in the organization. The way to really change things is to become a part of the leadership organization of the future.

I've heard quite a few people say that they'll just stop paying their dues and that will show the AOA... but I don't believe that will work. There won't be any real change until the people who want change become a part of the leadership.
 
Interestingly enough it looks like students here wont be able to recieve federal financial aid. from the website..

"Financial Assistance

Students enrolling at RVUCOM for the academic year 2007-2008 will not be eligible to participate in federally guaranteed and supplemented
student-loan programs until the time the college achieves regional or
full accreditation. This process requires at a minimum two years from
the date the college begin classes. "

Also looks like tuition and fees here are going to be horendous. 38K plus a ton of nickel and dimeing.

"Financial Requirements

The tuition for 2008&#8211; 2009 (subject to change by the board of trustees without notice) has been established at $38,000. Qualified Colorado residents may receive a 10 percent tuition discount. For tuition purposes, a student's Colorado residency status will be determined upon acceptance to the university and will remain the same throughout the entire enrollment of the student at RVU. Accordingly, tuition will not be adjusted as a result of any change in residency status after initial enrollment and registration.
For first and second year students, a laboratory fee of $250 is required annually.
An RVU student services fee of $750 is required annually. This includes student health, yearbook, copying allowance, parking, student ID, student government fees etc.
Graduation fees are currently established at $750.
Medical malpractice fees of $200 annually.
Board review fee for OMS-II and OMS-III students of $750 per year.
Additional program fees may apply and may be announced by the administration at any time. "

This school is bush league and a disgrace to our profession.
 
EastCoaster78 said:
"Financial Assistance

Students enrolling at RVUCOM for the academic year 2007-2008 will not be eligible to participate in federally guaranteed and supplemented
student-loan programs until the time the college achieves regional or
full accreditation. This process requires at a minimum two years from
the date the college begin classes. "
Click to expand...

Ummm, what? That doesn't sound doable for probably 9/10 applicants. Although they do mention other loan opportunities, it would seem that federally guaranteed loans are probably your safest bet for most students, and perhaps with the lowest interest rate? I haven't even begun to think about paying for medical school, but it would seem to me that private loans would incur higher risk.
 
EastCoaster78 said:
Interestingly enough it looks like students here wont be able to recieve federal financial aid. from the website..

"Financial Assistance

Students enrolling at RVUCOM for the academic year 2007-2008 will not be eligible to participate in federally guaranteed and supplemented
student-loan programs until the time the college achieves regional or
full accreditation. This process requires at a minimum two years from
the date the college begin classes. "

Also looks like tuition and fees here are going to be horendous. 38K plus a ton of nickel and dimeing.

"Financial Requirements

The tuition for 2008&#8211; 2009 (subject to change by the board of trustees without notice) has been established at $38,000. Qualified Colorado residents may receive a 10 percent tuition discount. For tuition purposes, a student's Colorado residency status will be determined upon acceptance to the university and will remain the same throughout the entire enrollment of the student at RVU. Accordingly, tuition will not be adjusted as a result of any change in residency status after initial enrollment and registration.
For first and second year students, a laboratory fee of $250 is required annually.
An RVU student services fee of $750 is required annually. This includes student health, yearbook, copying allowance, parking, student ID, student government fees etc.
Graduation fees are currently established at $750.
Medical malpractice fees of $200 annually.
Board review fee for OMS-II and OMS-III students of $750 per year.
Additional program fees may apply and may be announced by the administration at any time. "

This school is bush league and a disgrace to our profession.
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Ouch. This is unbelievable (not the fees - the expense of the school - every school gets you with fees, but the board prep fees? What will they do for board prep?).

I hope the poor applicants realize this. 🙁 I wonder why this is so though b/c other new DO schools didn't have this issue, not my knowledge (LMU-COM)?

Full accreditation won't be given for 4 years?!?!?!
 
mshheaddoc said:
Ouch. This is unbelievable (not the fees - the expense of the school - every school gets you with fees, but the board prep fees? What will they do for board prep?).

I hope the poor applicants realize this. 🙁 I wonder why this is so though b/c other new DO schools didn't have this issue, not my knowledge (LMU-COM)?

Full accreditation won't be given for 4 years?!?!?!
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Ever shool has fees. But from a PCOM students standpoint these are above the norm. I've never heard of a school making students pay malpractice before either.
 
EastCoaster78 said:
Ever shool has fees. But from a PCOM students standpoint these are above the norm. I've never heard of a school making students pay malpractice before either.
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I have and about $200 is about right. Health fees I love, my husband's school didn't cover a damn thing, you had to pay for your TB tests, shots, etc. It only covered you "slightly" if you had to follow blood borne pathogen protocals. 🙄 I complained MULTIPLE times about this fee that he had to pay every semester ($75?) for nothing.
 
RVU's provisional accreditation is a disappointment. AOA & COCA blatantly ignored the wants and needs of its profession.

Aside from that: 38k is high but not exorbitant... WVSOM: 48k, MSU-COM: >50k (OOS) CCOM: 41k (OOS) PCOM: 36k, etc...

The inability of students to procure federal loans is a huge negative. Private loans are NOT fixed at an interest rate which makes them really dangerous for the life of an educational loan.
 
Does rocky vista sound like an apartment complex to anyone else?
 
Make no mistake, the floodgates are about to open. Wait till the rest of hte carib schools get ahold of this idea, they'll start advertising on their website about being an "american" medical school.
 
devildoc2 said:
Make no mistake, the floodgates are about to open. Wait till the rest of hte carib schools get ahold of this idea, they'll start advertising on their website about being an "american" medical school.
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I tried to keep an open mind, but this is really sounding more and more horrible for the profession. 🙁
 
MaximusD said:
RVU's provisional accreditation is a disappointment. AOA & COCA blatantly ignored the wants and needs of its profession.

Aside from that: 38k is high but not exorbitant... WVSOM: 48k, MSU-COM: >50k (OOS) CCOM: 41k (OOS) PCOM: 36k, etc...

The inability of students to procure federal loans is a huge negative. Private loans are NOT fixed at an interest rate which makes them really dangerous for the life of an educational loan.
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Yeah, I would imagine with the loan status the way it is at this school, all of the qualified applicants would stay away, which would leave what? Only applicants with marginal stats applying? I mean really, if you had decent stats why on earth would you apply to this school? Don't get me wrong, I lived in Colorado for almost 40 years (my entire life) and it was beautiful, but knowing that loans that could take me years to pay off could reach some crazy % would have me pretty :scared:
 
mshheaddoc said:
Ouch. This is unbelievable (not the fees - the expense of the school - every school gets you with fees, but the board prep fees? What will they do for board prep?).

I hope the poor applicants realize this. 🙁 I wonder why this is so though b/c other new DO schools didn't have this issue, not my knowledge (LMU-COM)?

Full accreditation won't be given for 4 years?!?!?!
Click to expand...

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that most of the other new schools are associated as branch campuses with existing schools, and thus are accredited under their parent schools. LMU-COM is a new DO but it is attached to an established university...just hypothesizing.

The lack of federal money makes me wonder if they will contract with private lenders...the potential for conflicts of interest w/ this situation seem enormous.
 
No federal student loans are going to kill the applicants. Once they get into the interviews, I hope they tell the students this. This will cause about 90% of the applicants (I'm guessing) to reject the school.
 
In order to qualify for federal loans (also known as Title IV loans), a school must be accredited by a regional accrediting body recognized by the US Department of Education or by a national accrediting body recognized by the US Department of Education.

The vast majority of DO schools, along with almost every other schools in the country (including Harvard, Hopkins, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, etc) have regional accreditation. These regional accrediting body accredits the entire school, and not one specific program.
For example, PCOM, NYIT (of which NYCOM is a part of), NYU, Columbia, etc. have regional accreditation from the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools. So far, there have been no mention of RVU seeking regional accreditation.

The AOA is a national accrediting body recognized by the US Department of Education for accrediting programs in osteopathic medicine. The LCME is the national accrediting body recognized by the US Department of Education for accrediting programs in medicine. Not all national accrediting bodies have the ability to provide eligibility for Title IV Federal Loans. For example, the American Optometry Association accreditation (needed for optometry school) does not provide eligibility for Title IV loans. Such programs will need to be accredited by another entity that will provide Title IV loans (such as regional accreditation).
The AOA (American osteopathic association) does have the ability to provide eligibility for Title IV loans. To quote the US DOE website, "Only freestanding schools or colleges of osteopathic medicine may use accreditation by this agency to establish eligibility to participate in Title IV programs."

Thus RVU will eventually be able to use the AOA to give its students eligibility for Title IV loans (such as Stafford, GradPlus, Perkins). However, I am uncertain of the rules and procedures as established by the AOA for this. Perhaps provisional accreditation or pre-accreditation does not entitle the school to use the AOA for Title IV eligibility? It seems, if what is posted is true, that you need full AOA accreditation before eligibility of Title IV loans through the AOA is granted.

Private loans are risky ... because eligibility and interest rates are determined by your credit scores, the credit scores of your co-signers, and the prevailing market interest rate. Subsidized federal loans is based on financial need. Unsubsidized federal loans is based purely on enrollment and meeting Title IV eligibility (like attending an accredited school).

So at least for the next 4 years ... you have tuition+fees at around $40k/year with no federal loans so students will have to rely on private loans. It puts an interesting twist on the admission process. Now you have to make sure the students admitted can afford to attend ... by making sure they can either obtain the money from private sources (mom/dad/grandparents/trust funds) or from private loans (based on credit report). It makes no sense if you accept 100 students for a class of 60 (assuming 60% yield), then find out that 80% of the students cannot secure private $200k loan ($40k/yr x 4 years + $40k cost of living in 4 years*) and thus cannot attend. Will a credit score and financial application be required in addition to application information? Will acceptance be conditional pending credit score and a letter from a financial institution saying that you're good for $200k?


*yes, I'm being extremely generous in cost of living. $40/4 years = $10k per year, or $833/month. Good luck with rent, grocery, travel expenses, etc. in Colorado. And not factoring in health insurance. It's doable.
 
gilbertjgreen said:
As a hopeful matriculant with a fall of 2008 class, I was initially excited about the opening of Rocky Vista. In fact, my wife, who has always wanted to live in Colorado had dreamed not two months earlier about the possibility of my going to school in this state. At the time, she and I both knew that this wasn't a possibility. When I made a random search some two months later for, "colorado osteopathic school," and saw that Rocky Vista was already planned and underway, it was as if a dream had been answered!
But I have since read posts from pre-meds, osteopathic students, and D.O.'s on this forum decrying the opening of this school. I must admit, this has given me pause. I never bought the argument that the tax status of a school will affect its dedication to its students, but I was particularly affected by the assertion made that graduates of this school would be looked down upon. I don't believe this will be the case, but nonetheless, it was somewhat disheartening.
I took a look at their updated website today and, I'll be honest, was impressed with their response in a section under the "About RVUCOM" tab, titled "Addressing For Profit Status." Has anyone else read this? What are your impressions?
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You bring up valid concerns and I agree with you that some of the responses have been childish. I don't think you will be looked down upon once you're a practicing physician wherever you decide to practice. As you mentioned, it's mostly students who are blowing this out of proportion as they have. The general public hasn't and most likely won't make a big deal out of this. All schools make a profit, at least their board of directors do. Their tax status won't change anything on how you, as a graduating physician, will be looked at or how much you're respected. You can make your dream a reality, go for it.
 
I don't mean to hijack a thread here...but group_theory points out an interesting topic in the financial aid discussion.

I'm hoping to matriculate @ PNWU in Yakima, which also just received provisional accreditation.

Anyone have any knowledge and/or opinions as to whether the loan situation will be the same?
 
OLYWA said:
I don't mean to hijack a thread here...but group_theory points out an interesting topic in the financial aid discussion.

I'm hoping to matriculate @ PNWU in Yakima, which also just received provisional accreditation.

Anyone have any knowledge and/or opinions as to whether the loan situation will be the same?
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Well good question b/c they have absolutely NO information on their website.
 
The argument of "it's not the fault of the students" is the same as the Germans saying, "I was only following orders," in 1939. RVU cannot succeed without the collaboration of administrators, faculty and students. There is substantial, widespread and intensely emotional opposition to this school from DO's in practice. Many share my opinion that this is a disgrace which has brought dishonor on our profession. The AMA and LCME are also watching this and have an even lower opinion of the shcool (if such a thing is possible). For-profit health profession schools are illegal in some states, such as neighboring Kansas. Although COCA has granted the school provisional accreditation, COCA's scope of authority does not extend to for-profit institutions and it has to apply to the US Department of Education for an expansion of its scope. This is not over.
Association with this school at any level, administrative, faculty and yes, even student, is considered by many of us to be unethical and I expect that these individuals will be treated accordingly.
 
DO Anes said:
The argument of "it's not the fault of the students" is the same as the Germans saying, "I was only following orders," in 1939.
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Comparing RVU students to Nazi sympathizers is a bit strong, but I get the idea.
 
This whole RVU thing is starting to piss me off. It really bugs me that they could potentially hurt/tarnish a DO degree. I tried to igonre this/not worry about it for a long time, but it is starting to concern me. There is no way I will apply there, but I hope it doesn't lessen the DO degree from other schools.
 
There seems to be some legitimate concerns mainly the fact that students will not be able to obtain federal student loans. I am applying for a navy HPSP scholarship (yes I have read the threads and know whatI am getting into I spent four years as Marine Infantry I am sure I can deal with the lifestyle).

The fact that it is a for profit school is not necessarily disturbing as it may seem. What are they doing with their profits should be a concern. What if they are using it to do. If they are using it for bonuses to proffessors ato entice better and better faculty then that seems reasonible to me. Also look at the world of business. A profitable company must provide a good product no matter what the business. This means that their students must also be good products. In a non-profit it seems that the need to provide a good product would be less.

So thinking that to be profitable they need to last over four years to get their money that is locked up for possible legal actions if they fail accreditation (like any schools just starting up) then it is easy to see that they would need to produce good students to continue onto good placements to even reach the break even point.
As for the quality of applicants that they will produce their should not be a stigma for D.O.'s from RVU just as their shouldn't be a stigma of D.O.'s from the M.D. world. The graduates from this university should be judged on their individual merit not the "idea" that they graduated from a lesser institution.

"Education's purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one." Malcolm Forbes
 
libo1369 said:
The fact that it is a for profit school is not necessarily disturbing as it may seem. What are they doing with their profits should be a concern. What if they are using it to do. If they are using it for bonuses to proffessors ato entice better and better faculty then that seems reasonible to me.
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I'm sorry, but that doesn't hold true. If available money is put into faculty salary (bonus or otherwise), upgrading resources, etc. then it is not profit because it was used internally for an operating expense.

American Heritage - Profit - The return received on a business undertaking after all operating expenses have been met.

The problem with a for-profit is that is creates a conflict between using resources for facilities, salaries, etc and paying out profits to investors.
 
libo1369 said:
There seems to be some legitimate concerns mainly the fact that students will not be able to obtain federal student loans.

As for the quality of applicants that they will produce their should not be a stigma for D.O.'s from RVU just as their shouldn't be a stigma of D.O.'s from the M.D. world. The graduates from this university should be judged on their individual merit not the "idea" that they graduated from a lesser institution.
Click to expand...


Actually I am quite concern about the quality of the "product"

First - what type of students will they get? They are a brand new school, with no ability to get federal loans or federal aid, and some stigma associated with being for-profit. Clinical rotations are a big mystery at this moment. If you were a competitive student, would you choose RVU over another DO (or MD) school? Some might due to location/family.

Also, the type of students who can attend school is limited by the mere fact that federal loans are off limit (at least for the first 4 years). Private loans will require credit checks and co-signers. Private loans also don't offer loan deferment during residency that borrowers of federal loans are legally entitled to. Forbearance is up to the lender to decide.

So you need students who are willing to attend a brand new school, ignore the stigma associated with being a DO and being a product of a for-profit school, and can get at least $200k in private loans who can make monthly payments during residency.

That's what you are starting out with. So the question is - will the school get a big enough applicant pool that standards are not compromised? Or will the school have to lower their standards to admit enough people to cover operating expenses? (one of the criticism against current for-profit colleges is a general lack of admission standards and having admission officers be more like recruitment officers)

So if the school does lower its standards ... how well will these students do on boards? On rotations when compared to other medical school students? How well will the students do come application time for residency, when they have to compete against other DO and MD students?
 
As I have stated before most of the DO schools now have about 4 faculty members (fulltime) and charge 40000 and let you do your rotations in a "large" 50 bed hospital in the middle of nowhere. RVU will hopefully imporve upon this model and be a true medical school unlike several DO schools out there. Don't bash the school until it has been up and running for a few years by then you would see that this is great for investors and for students and hopefully it will open the door for more schools and change the way current schools operate.
 
To those posters saying that "for profit schools need to produce something of quality for profit" don't forget that Rocky Vista's endgame is profit to shareholders, and the like the Caribbean schools, as long as all pay tuition, its not a big deal if 1/3 don't pass the pre-clinical years as long as they filled every last seat in that classroom for those 2 years. If more for-profits are allowed to open, I wouldn't be surprised if you had 10 of these schools in 10 years and a crapload of kids failing out or not being matched. MOST DOs HAVE TO MATCH MD, and I sure as hell don't think Rocky Vista DOs would be looked at too well at programs where DOs have been favored over American IMGs. Whether an American IMG or a Rocky Vista DO gets looked at more favorably is up in the air. But from what I've seen from my school almost all graduate and those who do match. What Rocky Vista is bringing to the table is wrong, it may be all right for an offshore MD school, but this is wrong for DOs and the American medical school system.
 
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