"Boom Time for Dentists, but Not for Teeth" - MUST READ

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dentwannabe

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Damn, bad publicity and its not even fair that they didn't provide the other perspective clearly. Yea I know its always in the news -- but this is on the front page of nytimes.com as the "main" headline.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/business/11decay.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
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Boom Times for Dentists, but Not for Teeth
By ALEX BERENSON

For American dentists, times have never been better.

The same cannot be said for Americans’ teeth.

With dentists’ fees rising far faster than inflation and more than 100 million people lacking dental insurance, the percentage of Americans with untreated cavities began rising this decade, reversing a half-century trend of improvement in dental health.

Previously unreleased figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that in 2003 and 2004, the most recent years with data available, 27 percent of children and 29 percent of adults had cavities going untreated. The level of untreated decay was the highest since the late 1980s and significantly higher than that found in a survey from 1999 to 2002.

Despite the rise in dental problems, state boards of dentists and the American Dental Association, the main lobbying group for dentists, have fought efforts to use dental hygienists and other non-dentists to provide basic care to people who do not have access to dentists.

For middle-class and wealthy Americans, straight white teeth are still a virtual birthright. And dentists say that a majority of people in this country receive high-quality care.

But many poor and lower-middle-class families do not receive adequate care, in part because most dentists want customers who can pay cash or have private insurance, and they do not accept Medicaid patients. As a result, publicly supported dental clinics have months-long waiting lists even for people who need major surgery for decayed teeth. At the pediatric clinic managed by the state-supported University of Florida dental school, for example, low-income children must wait six months for surgery.

In some cases, the results of poor dental care have been deadly. A child in Mississippi and another in Maryland died this year from infections caused by decayed teeth.

The dental profession’s critics — who include public health experts, some physicians and even some dental school professors — say that too many dentists are focused more on money than medicine.

“Most dentists consider themselves to be in the business of dentistry rather than the practice of dentistry,” said Dr. David A. Nash, a professor of pediatric dentistry at the University of Kentucky. “I’m a cynic about my profession, but the data are there. It’s embarrassing.”

A defender of the profession is Dr. Terry D. Dickinson, a practicing dentist who is also the executive director of the Virginia Dental Association. He says he believes that dentists are charitable and want to provide care to poor patients. But dentists are also in business; they must pay rent and employee salaries, and they deserve fair fees, he said.

“Charity is not a health care system,” Dr. Dickinson said.

Dentists, of course, are no more obligated to serve the poor than are lawyers or accountants. But the issue from a public health standpoint, the critics say, is that even as so many patients go untreated, business is booming for most dentists. They are making more money while working shorter hours, on average, even as the nation’s number of dentists, per person, has declined.

The lack of dental care is not restricted to the poor and their children, the data shows. Experts on oral health say about 100 million Americans — including many adults who work and have incomes well above the poverty line — are without access to care.

A federal survey shows that 27 percent of adults without insurance saw a dentist in 2004, down from 29 percent in 1996, when dental fees were significantly lower, even after adjusting for inflation. For adults with private insurance, the rate was virtually unchanged, at 57 percent, up from 56 percent. Since 1990, the number of dentists in the United States has been roughly flat, about 150,000 to 160,000, while the population has risen about 22 percent. In addition, more dentists are working part time.

Partly as a result, dental fees have risen much faster than inflation. In real dollars, the cost of the average dental procedure rose 25 percent from 1996 to 2004. The average American adult patient now spends roughly $600 annually on dental care, with insurance picking up about half the tab.

Dentists’ incomes have grown faster than that of the typical American and the incomes of medical doctors. Formerly poor relations to physicians, American dentists in general practice made an average salary of $185,000 in 2004, the most recent data available. That figure is similar to what non-specialist doctors make, but dentists work far fewer hours. Dental surgeons and orthodontists average more than $300,000 annually.

“Dentists make more than doctors,” said Morris M. Kleiner, a University of Minnesota economist. “If I had a kid going into the sciences, I’d tell them to become a dentist.”

But despite the allure of rising salaries, the shortage of dentists will almost certainly worsen, because the nation has fewer dental schools and fewer dentists in training than a generation ago. After peaking at 5,750 in 1982, the number of dental school graduates fell to 4,440 in 2003, as several big dental schools closed their doors. The average dentist is now 49 years old, according to the American Dental Association, and for at least the next decade retiring dentists will probably outnumber new ones.

Even if more students wanted to enter the profession, states are not moving aggressively to expand dental schools or open new ones. Training dentists is expensive, because dental schools must provide hands-on training — unlike medical schools, which send doctors to hospitals for training after they graduate. Hospitals receive federal subsidies for the training they provide to medical interns and residents, but the equivalent system does not really exist in dentistry.

Meanwhile, the A.D.A. does not support opening new dental schools or otherwise increasing the number of dentists. The association says it sees no nationwide shortage of dentists, though it acknowledges a shortage in rural areas. Dentists note that in the early 1980s, when schools were graduating nearly twice as many dentists relative to the overall size of the population as they are now, some dentists struggled to keep their practices afloat.

Dr. Kathleen Roth, president of the A.D.A., said that the association is working to increase Medicaid’s reimbursement rates to make it more cost-effective for dentists to treat low-income patients. While Medicaid is supposed to cover both basic care and emergency procedures for children, the program will pay only for emergency procedures — not basic care — for adults in most states.

“Access to dental care, especially for children, has been a growing problem for 10 years,” Dr. Roth said. “State and federal programs have decreased the amount of dollars available.”

Besides calling for higher Medicaid reimbursement, Dr. Roth said, the association supports putting health aides with basic dental training into public schools. The aides would help get appointments for children who need them and teach children basic habits like brushing teeth.

But critics say the association’s plans would do little to solve the basic problem of access to care. Moreover, even in states that have raised Medicaid payments, most dentists still do not accept Medicaid patients. Virginia, for example, overhauled its Medicaid program in 2005, raising rates 30 percent. But only about 25 percent of all Virginia dentists now accept Medicaid patients, compared with 15 percent before the changes.

Some dentists do not accept Medicaid patients because they frequently miss appointments, which means lost revenue, said Dr. L. Jackson Brown, the former managing vice president for health policy at the A.D.A.

With little dental care available for poor children, pediatricians are teaching themselves how to apply fluoride varnish on baby teeth, a simple procedure that can prevent cavities, said Dr. Amos S. Deinard, a pediatrician and associate professor at the University of Minnesota.

“The dentists don’t want to see these kids,” Dr. Deinard said.

Outside the United States, more than 50 countries, including some western European nations, now allow technicians called dental therapists to drill and fill cavities, usually in children.

Proponents of the therapists say their training is comparable to the practical training that dentists receive, but without the general medical training dentists get. Studies of the work performed by the therapists have concluded that it is comparable to, and in some cases better than, that of fully trained dentists.

Dr. Frank Catalanotto, a professor of community dentistry at the University of Florida, said dental therapists would be a cost-effective way to provide basic care to children and some adults who could not otherwise afford treatment.

But state boards of dentistry have blocked dental therapists from working, arguing that only dentists should be allowed to drill teeth, because it is an “irreversible surgical procedure” and can lead to serious complications like infections or nerve damage. Children of Alaska Natives in remote areas have high rates of cavities and essentially no access to dentists, so a coalition of tribes began a program in 2003 to use therapists to treat native children.

“There’s never been a dentist in these rural areas,” said Dr. Ron Nagel, a dentist who helped create the Alaska program.

But the American Dental Association fought the program almost as soon as it began, dropping its effort only in July, after a state judge ruled in favor of the program. Still, the group continues to oppose letting dental therapists practice anywhere in the continental United States.

“What we’re extremely uncomfortable with is that they need to drill teeth and sometimes extract teeth,” said Dr. Roth, the association’s president. Use of therapists would create a two-tier system where some people have access to dentists, while others must settle for less-qualified practitioners, she said.

Dr. Caswell A. Evans, a dentist and associate dean at the University of Illinois-Chicago, said dentists must stop fighting efforts to expand care to patients they are not currently treating. The system is failing many patients, he said.

“Right now we have a double standard of care,” Dr. Evans said. “Some people can get it and some people can’t.”
 
The NY Times loves to print these "doctors are so greedy" articles regularly. IMO they won't stop printing nonsense like this until we have "universal health care for all Americans" and then they'll start writing the articles about how doctors are causing it to fail.

They recently printed this not too long ago, titled "Sending Back the Doctor's Bill." It reads very similar to the article you posted, except they are attacking physicians in it. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/weekinreview/29berenson.html?em&ex=1185768000&en=da95b456e8095b33&ei=5087%0A
 
the person who makes money is always wrong in the eyes of those who don't make as much.
 

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Should merge this with all the other threads discussing this....🙂
 
I think another big problem is that most of the population don't realize how severe an amalgam-gone-wrong could be. I could probably be trained to do open heart surgery in a year or two, but if things went wrong I wouldn't have the knowledge to know what to do. Of course, filling a tooth isn't as drastic as open heart surgery, but I think the principle holds true. Besides, has anyone looked at teeth in Europe lately? I don't really think the "Brittish Smile" is what people here are looking for.
 
As long as dentistry isnt considered a "right" like medicine is, then you guys are in the clear. I havent noticed any politicians on capitol hill spouting off about how dental care is some kind of BS fundamental right yet.

The article mentions that in the early 1980s, there were too many dental schools creating a surplus of dentists and they couldnt get enough work. Did the ADA start revoking school accreditations to cut down on the # of programs or what?

You guys better get on your knees and pray that dental care doesnt get caught up in the "universal healthcare" proposals that the democrats are floating. If dental care is covered for free by the federal govt, they will gain so much power over your incomes that you will notice their impact, regardless of whehter you actually accept their "universal insurance" or not.
 
One other comment about hte article. It specifically mentions that in rural/remote areas, there are programs that let hygienists basically function as dentists.

Thats a huge mistake. Do you really think the hygienists are going to be satisfied by just doing the rural stuff? Think again. They'll go to the state legislatures and convince them to make the program statewide. They come after the big cities too.

The reason I say that is because thats EXACTLY what happened with NPs and PAs in medicine. In the beginning, there was this whole thing of "oh yeah we'll just stick them out in teh rural areas where no docs want to work." Within less than 10 years they brought the first court challenges and proposed changes in state law to give them access to the big city areas as well.

Hold back those barbarians at the gate. Do whatever it takes to get dentists in those rural areas, because if you dont, the state legislatures will let the hygiene dudes run in, and they'll start waging scope of practice wars against you.
 
I was thinking some more about this after I finished studying for histo, and even though I can see that there is a need in rural areas, the article cited the fact that the average American pays about $600 a year for dental care. How much does the average American spend on gas a year? Or basic car servicing? Cable and internet and cell phones? Eating out at Olive Garden? The list could go on and on. If you can't afford to pay $600 a year for good teeth, then invest in a nice toothbrush and brush while you watch tv. If the government wants to help out rural communities, then treat the source of dental disease and not simply drill-and-fill til all the kiddies teeth are packed with amalgams. Pay someone to go out and teach oral hygiene in the schools, or just put a 1 cent tax on Coke products and you could pay for a dentist to drive a dental RV around.
The other argument I would make is that the problem is not simply lack of access to professional dental care. The problem lies in the patients themselves. You can tell a lot about an individual's lifestyle simply by looking at their teeth and how much attention they pay to their teeth. I won't say too much about this, but our government educates people to not take responsibility for themselves, and that has to change before this type of issue will improve. I would drive myself crazy dealing with this stuff in medicine all day if I was a physician.
 
This is why people don't take medicaid. This is my production for the last ~ 2months here in residency. Compare the billed to paid. Who in their right mind will go into 150K+ of debt and then take medicaid. You'll be unable to pay your staff and overhead let alone put food on the table. Ridiculous!

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Here is the response by Vincent Mayher, AGD President. Not as butt kicking as I like, but effective neverless. 😀

October 11, 2007

Clark Hoyt
Public Editor
New York Times
620 Eighth Avenue
New York, NY 10018
(October 11 letter submitted via e-mail: [email protected])

Dear Mr. Hoyt,

On behalf of the Academy of General Dentistry (AGD), I am writing to express my great regret about the biased advice Alex Berenson provides in his article, “Boom Times for Dentists, but Not for Teeth.” Your readers deserve to read editorially accurate, truthful and objective information. This article misleads the public and does nothing to help your readers understand what is at the root of access to care problems in this country.

America should be disappointed with its leadership, not with the thousands of dentists that are working every day to provide free care to needy patients. Many of these dentists also work with Donated Dental Services (DDS). Do your readers know that these dentists have provided more than $116 million in comprehensive pro bono oral health therapies for more than 77,000 needy, disabled or elderly and medically compromised individuals?

Do your readers know that the decision by President Bush to veto the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) reauthorization bill on October 3 has denied uninsured children an opportunity for dental care? The inclusion of guaranteed dental coverage in the final SCHIP bill would have ensured that millions of children would receive essential oral health care. Approximately 23 million children are without dental care insurance in the United States.

Do your readers know that by seeing a licensed dentist, as opposed to a dental assistant or dental hygienist, their life can be saved? This happens hundreds of times, yet it is never reported on. For example, one AGD dentist found an enlarged node on the neck of a long-time patient and insisted the patient see her physician immediately. The patient finally visited a physician and learned she had lymphoma. She was treated in a timely manner and went into remission. She recently passed away after having many additional years she may not have had.

Do you readers know that dentists are taking America’s access to care problem into their own hands? One AGD dentist started a free health clinic in his community for those that may make too much money to receive federal help and not enough to afford insurance. It has a medical and a dental program. In the dental program, there is approximately 85 to 90 percent participation by the dentists in the community. All of the dental care is free, and the clinic provides thousands of dollars worth of free dentistry to hard-working individuals.

The point is that dentists today are more in tune with the overall medical condition and total well-being of patients. Every day, dentists save lives when they discover pre-cancerous or cancerous lesions and refer the affected patients to an oral surgeon. Every day, dentists help to prevent cardiovascular problems when they perform routine blood pressure evaluations and find patients with hypertension and refer them immediately to their physicians.

The New York Times often has featured stories such as these in its pages. Organized dentistry and its members are working together to find answers to the access to care problem. However, America’s leadership ignores requests to allocate more government funds toward these solutions while media outlets, such as yours, spread mistruths and mislead the public to falsely point their fingers.

General dentists are the primary oral health care providers for patients of all ages. They rely on a variety of resources, including your publication, to help them stay up-to-date in the profession and provide accurate information to patients. We expect that the editorial team at your publication will remain committed to sharing non-biased articles with the New York Times audience.

Best regards,

Vincent C. Mayher, DMD, MAGD
AGD President, 2007-2008

If I have time, I plan to rip this article to shreds this weekend. (I am such a dork because I am actually looking forward to. Kinda excited actually :laugh:)
 
I can tell all of you that the ADA and multiple state dental societies are coordinating their responses right now. The key in their coordination is to not have every formal response be a clone, so that each response covers the core flaws in the article and brings in new things too.

Personally, when I get questioned about my not participating with "medicaid" I let the numbers speak for themselves. When you tell people the facts about the horrendous, non expense covering reimbursement rates that in most circumstances haven't been adjusted in 10+ years, combined with the often ridiculous amounts of paperwork(atleast in my state) that the state requires for reimbursement, and the traditionally high no-show rates of medicaid patients (4 times the non medicaid patient rate in my office), it speaks for itself.

Bottom line, this while alarming to dentistry as a front page article that riled up many a liberal, will be forgotton quickly by the same group, especially now that the liberal's #2 "rock star" figure Al Gore won the nobel peace prize this AM.
 
I can tell all of you that the ADA and multiple state dental societies are coordinating their responses right now.

This is why I will always pay my dues and do what I can to help the ADA. In my personal opinion, the best investment you can make as a dentist is to join and be active in the ADA.
 
Who in their right mind will go into 150K+ of debt and then take medicaid. You'll be unable to pay your staff and overhead let alone put food on the table. Ridiculous!
Some of the most successful general dentists I have seen/met serve in minority communities, especially the ones with medicaid.
 
Some of the most successful general dentists I have seen/met serve in minority communities, especially the ones with medicaid.

You may be suprised by how they have achieved this success when looking more clearly at treatment/billing practices of these "medicaid dentists". Not all, but many abuse the system. To be successful you have to herd them(patients) through like cattle.
 
Some of the most successful general dentists I have seen/met serve in minority communities, especially the ones with medicaid.

I guess that depends on your definition of success. Highly profitable...sure. Treating patients like cattle and doing massive amounts of treatment quickly and probably not as good.....doesn't fit my definition of success.
 
Typical drive-by from the NY times. They spray charges and accusations then screech away from the scene, tires smoking and leaving people pointing fingers at each other. There is no context or perspective (daunte driver, ect).

Its funny though the ADA is going Ape about dentists not getting a government payout for S-CHIP. If the ADA gets in bed with these people it won't be long government starts running the profession.
 
The cost of dental care is interesting.

I've got good family dental insurance through my employer and so does my wife. Mine caps at 1500.00 per year per individual and and my wife's caps at 1750.00 per year per individual. We can coordinate our benefits so we each (plus our kids) have 3250.00 available in benefits per annum. None of us has ever capped out, although I think maybe our last kid to have his wizzes removed by an OS came close. I may come close this year with my third implant, but even that can be extened between 2 years if you space it right between extraction, implant, and abutement/crown.

My whole point is that quality dental care is a bargain if a person goes in for regular check ups, and keeps up his end of personal responsibility. The total premimums for the 3250.00 of dental benefits per family member come in at about 2000.00 per year. With those premimums, the insurance company is able to pay its costs plus the costs of the dental care and not go in the red.
So, my wife and I are each putting up about 100.00 per month in tax exempt forgone income in retrun for quality dental insurance provided by our respective employers. Geez, any family can do the same thing with a health savings account. All they need is the access to the group rates which large employers have. The poor? There has to be an easy fix. We are not talking about exposure to the risk of million dollar heart/lung transplants here.
 
The article says the average American pays $600 a year with insurance paying half of that. I find it hard to believe that dental care is so in-affordable that 90% of people cannot afford $25 a month. 🙄
 
You are correct johntar04.

Paige's Mom not needing to choose between her princess having the latest wardrobe for pre-teens or getting the full meal deal at a trendy Spa/Pedo Clinc vs Skeet's Mom needing to choose between him getting a barber shop trim to his "mullet" or having his teeth checked at the County Clinic does not constitute inadequate dental care.
 
I guess that depends on your definition of success. Highly profitable...sure. Treating patients like cattle and doing massive amounts of treatment quickly and probably not as good.....doesn't fit my definition of success.
I was just responding to your earlier post...
Who in their right mind will go into 150K+ of debt and then take medicaid. You'll be unable to pay your staff and overhead let alone put food on the table. Ridiculous!

I guess somehow you agree are that it's doable to payback a $150K debt, pay your overhead, and still live like any other dentist while serving medicaid patients IF one found a way to do it.

I am sure 99% of dentists can manage their education debt these days without any issues, including recent graduates... look around, there is no fear of making money when it comes to dentistry, the people who complain are dental students - because they worry too much about the future.

Also, the assumption of having an office with a lot of medicaid patients = poor business, is not totally true. I agree, many dentists cut corners in this area of dentistry, i.e. doing a class 2 restoration in 15 minutes, but not all do.
 
Dental insurance sucks. I had to pay more than $2500 out-of-pocket last year for root canal and crown and some other work even though I have coverage through my school. Even when I was working and had private insurance, dental co-pays were very high. It's no wonder why dentists are raking it in. It's incredible that dentists have been able to avoid the price controls that doctors experience for so long in this country. Not to mention midlevels. But I wonder how long this setup will last.
 
Going over Capisce's and Cold Front's debate reminded of a story told by my Father. He was raised in an Orphanage during the Depression. It was a big farm in which the kids worked the farm one half day and went to school the other half. The boys raised and harveted the crops and cattle etc while the girls processed the crops and meat plus made the clothes.

Anyway, the story he tells is that of getting tonsils removed. Every year at a certain time, the boys and girls who reached a certain age were lined up to have their tonsils removed in what amounted to an assembly line process. Some of the older girls were given rudamentary training in administering the ether for anesthesia. Dad said it was a horrible experience. A cloth was slapped on the face and ether poured on the cloth. He said the stuff really stung the eyes. Anyway, once knocked out, the tonsils were removed. He did say recovery was tolerable because they got ice cream and a few full days off in bed which was a rarity in those days.

I can see the good and the bad. On one end, we have high risk anesthesia meted out by virtually untrained staff for a shot gun surgical procedure that was likely unnecessary for most part given what we know today. On the other hand, a way was found to provide the poor with surgery which was thought to be an obligitory preventative for helping to insure the good health of children in those days.
 
Dental insurance sucks. I had to pay more than $2500 out-of-pocket last year for root canal and crown and some other work even though I have coverage through my school. Even when I was working and had private insurance, dental co-pays were very high. It's no wonder why dentists are raking it in. It's incredible that dentists have been able to avoid the price controls that doctors experience for so long in this country. Not to mention midlevels. But I wonder how long this setup will last.

Let's say you spent 2 grand on saving the tooth with endo and a crown. Let's say you get a very average 8 years service. You paid 250 bucks/year for the service of your tooth.

How much did you spend on your car last year? Oil changes? Tires? Gas?

How much did you spend on your cell phone last year? Surely more than 250 dollars.

What would you like to last longer...your car or your teeth? What would you rather have...a functioning tooth or the ability to make mobile calls?

It's all in what you value.
 
PS Capisce,

You are now an immigrant tarheel. If you have any old timers around there (in their mid eighties and up) ask them if they recall Mills Home in Thomasville N.C. There is lot of interesting history about that Southern Baptist Orphanage.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/business/11decay.html

Are the average salaries they put in this article correct? It seems like they fudged it.

Is the average age of today's practicing dentists really around 49?

What about the claims of the shortage of dentists? How long do you predict this will last?
 
when we had our financial aid talk during orientation, they said the avg salary of a dentist is about $140,000. Dentists from Alaska make the most out of any state in America and their avg salary closely resembles the number the article states. So yeah, those numbers don't seem right.
 
ADA says it is around $177,000, the salary websites put it between $120,000-130,000. I have worked for three docs and their monthly productions were $60,000-70,000, $100,000, and $150,000+. So, if you have them have average overhead (65%), their yearly salaries would be $252,000-$294,000, $420,000, $630,000. I personally don't see how you can't make $200,000 unless you are only open a couple of days a week, but that is my opinion. If the averages are around $120,000 then obviously you can make a lot less. Also, let's not discuss the article on this thread; there are already like 5 threads on this.....
 
So, if you have them have average overhead (65%), their yearly salaries would be $252,000-$294,000, $420,000, $630,000. I personally don't see how you can't make $200,000...
Experience and location/niche are the keys... how many years will it take to reach the $200K?

A friend of mine currently makes $190K/year after 2-3 years out of school, she also did a GPR - which she highly recommended.
 
Experience and location/niche are the keys... how many years will it take to reach the $200K?

A friend of mine currently makes $190K/year after 2-3 years out of school, she also did a GPR - which she highly recommended.

does she own the practice?
 
does she own the practice?
No. She is an associate for a group that owns 4-5 practices, and she is the only dentist working at her office. Her production is about $120-140K/month depending on the month, collection is substantially smaller - around $90-100K/month. Her take home is about $16K/month. She thinks she is not being compensated very well for the amount work she puts in to her contract, so she is planning on leaving and starting her own practice with another friend.
 
As Cold Front says, "Experience, location, and niche are keys."

I've heard about various outcomes. One recent DDS graduate is working as a RDH in a group practice. Another is bouncing between private practices on a part time contractual basis. Another was knocking down about 2500/week pre-tax take home as an associate in a private practice doing lots of crowns but qucikly left because of concerns about the standards and ethics of the principle. A recent recruitment appeared in a dental school "practice opportunities" page by a group practice offering 4-5 slots in Mass and New Mexico each paying between 200,000 to 350,000 plus medical, plus practice liability, plus 401K. Lots of opportunities out there guaranteeing 10,000-12,000 per month for first few months then shifting over to a percentage of production or collections.

One word of caution about percentage of collections. Check out the collections history. Say the clinic is doing a ton of work treating medicaid and low income kids. If the office folks have little incentive to screen patients and persue collections, you as the work horse, can get used big time.
 
As Cold Front says, "Experience, location, and niche are keys."

I've heard about various outcomes. One recent DDS graduate is working as a RDH in a group practice.

Unless you mean they got their RDH license prior to dental school, they are most likely a DDS doing prophies only at a practice. You can't work as a registered dental hygienist unless you are a registered dental hygienist. You can, however, do prophies with a dental degree.

Once again, you are posting erroneous information in a forum you have no business being in. For the record, groundhog is not a dentist and has not been to dental school. Try not to take their posts seriously.
 
Capisce,

Hope you are enjoying the hosptiality in N.C. Not the same as it used to be with so many immigrants moving in from out of state. But its still a nice place from which to have had roots in which a person's good name and manners counted for a whole lot more than his title or salary amongst his neighbors. God bless you boy.
 
I've seen first-hand the way the Medicaid game can be played in order to make a buck. Medicaid for children often pays a per visit fee, regardless of what is done at the visit, so quadrant dentistry goes out the window and patients are having 2 or 3 visits per quadrant in order for the practice to get more reimbursement. That's also the story behind a 2 (or 3!?) step pulpotomy.
 
ItsGavinC,

What are the dentists going to do if society decides to tax to itself in order to provide dental care for poor children but not at a level that will come close to covering the costs of the standard of care that would ethically be given in fee for service situations. Seems to me there are serveral choices, but none perfect.

1: Each dentist can take a few into the practice and hope to cover the inherent losses by taking a hit themsevles, shifting the costs onto fee for service clients (thereby serving as a hidden alternate tax lackey for the government), or some combination thereof.

2: Gaming the system as you have pointed out (which I think could put some practitioners' licenses at risk even if the gaming takes place "for the sake of the kids."

3: I know of one medicaid heavy group practice strategy that is using sedation on a broad basis to get the most done in the quicketst time on medicaid kids which I understand creates ehtical issues for many private practice Pedo and OS practitioners.

I don't what the ideal answer is unless society elects representatives who will choose to fully fund the real costs of providing a standard of dental care to medicaid kids that organizations such as the ADA could support.

Being on the front lines, do you have any suggestions?
 
I've seen first-hand the way the Medicaid game can be played in order to make a buck. Medicaid for children often pays a per visit fee, regardless of what is done at the visit, so quadrant dentistry goes out the window and patients are having 2 or 3 visits per quadrant in order for the practice to get more reimbursement. That's also the story behind a 2 (or 3!?) step pulpotomy.

This is how NY Medicaid pays for Article 28 clinics or whatever they call them(that basically means dental schools & GPRs & pedo residencies). Our GPR was paid the same way so it was 1 filling per visit and other stupid things like that. Dental school was similar, but it didn't matter so much there since we were so slow we didn't get much more done than 1 filling or 1 denture step a visit. Private practices in NY that take Medicaid don't get paid the same way.
 
ItsGavinC,

What are the dentists going to do if society decides to tax to itself in order to provide dental care for poor children but not at a level that will come close to covering the costs of the standard of care that would ethically be given in fee for service situations. Seems to me there are serveral choices, but none perfect.

First of all, society will not fix this problem. Dentists ARE fixing the problem but it is the 'society' that doesn't want it fixed. I work in a pediatric dental office 1-2 days a week and see 80% medicaid kids. I've sadly learned that medicaid is basically federal dollars given to large insurance companies to distribute to its participants. On paper it should be simple. however, in Marlyland for example, medicaid is run by United Health Care or Doral Dental Services. So, some suit in an office wants to sit on the millons of dollars, make interest in mutual funds (check out MetLifes profit the past two years) and give as little to the patients as possible. Do you know that if a parent forgets to update their medicaid forms their children are denied services until the plan 'resets' in 4-6 weeks. Often the parents bring the kids into the office, the insurance is verified (they do have the internet down pat) and if they are not eligible do you think the parent wants to pay the $25 for a sealant or $60 for a filling? Nope, they reschedule the kid and now you have a hole in your schedule. and if you see the patient, you get a nice letter from the ins. co that you cannot bill the patient and they will not pay you. Nice.

1: Each dentist can take a few into the practice and hope to cover the inherent losses by taking a hit themsevles, shifting the costs onto fee for service clients (thereby serving as a hidden alternate tax lackey for the government), or some combination thereof.

Not true. If you are on an insurance plan you cannot 'just see a few'. they will call you on this and either drop you or sue you for breach of contract. You have to sign a contract, notarized, that you agree to their terms and accept any patient that calls your office in a timely manner for treatment. The no show rate for medicaid patients is over 25%. All other patients is less than 10%.

3: I know of one medicaid heavy group practice strategy that is using sedation on a broad basis to get the most done in the quicketst time on medicaid kids which I understand creates ehtical issues for many private practice Pedo and OS practitioners.

I have seen this in other states, but medicaid doesn't pay much for sedation unless you go to the hospital with the kids, then its the health insurance that pays the hospital for the sedation, not to the DDS. For laughing gas medicaid only pays $30 for nitrous sedation.

I don't what the ideal answer is unless society elects representatives who will choose to fully fund the real costs of providing a standard of dental care to medicaid kids that organizations such as the ADA could support.

Being on the front lines, do you have any suggestions?
Good luck educating the parents as well. We drill into them home care every time and it never sinks in. All of these problems with childhood decay are preventable and should never happen. maybe I'm just bitter, but I just pulled 4 teeth ( # D, E, F G) on a 4 year old this past week and I am contemplating calling Social Services bc it is a sad day when this occurs.

jax
 
jax,

You are so on target when you bring up the cultural issues surrounding the so called "responsible adults" who are supposed to be looking after those kids. My wife is a middle school para-educator. A good portion of her job really amounts to being a part time substitue parent for kids who come from disfunctional homes. Its a tough job (that pays just about minimum wage on a yearly basis) because it always seems to be a one step forward and two steps back struggle. She keeps her head up because there are a few success stories amongst the many poor outcomes. That is why she keeps going. She never knows who the next success story will be. I bet you feel much the same way.
 
Good luck educating the parents as well. We drill into them home care every time and it never sinks in. All of these problems with childhood decay are preventable and should never happen. maybe I'm just bitter, but I just pulled 4 teeth ( # D, E, F G) on a 4 year old this past week and I am contemplating calling Social Services bc it is a sad day when this occurs.

jax

After 1.5 years of treating 100% medicaid children, I have but one statement that can sum it up.

You don't value what you don't pay for.

I'm glad the kids get to wear 100$ air jordans though while Mom reaches into her kate spade purse to grab her motorola razor when her fitty cent ringtone blares out.
 
You don't value what you don't pay for.

Amen to that!!!

Had a kid last week, Medicaid (not to point that out) that is excited about the Disney Cruise that she is going on over Thanksgiving Break!!! Don't forget your toothbrush!
 
You don't value what you don't pay for.

Amen. I work for a doctor that sees primarily phobic patients. He said when he first started out, he felt bad for them and charged as little as possible. He felt that just as long as they were getting care, it was a plus. Well, twenty years later, he charges a lot for what he does with these patients. He says that with a $600 dollar crown, the patient gets what is needed, then disappears. If he charges double that for a crown, the patient shows up on time, comes back every six months for recall visits, and does everything they can to keep that crown in good condition.
 
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