Who can call themselves "Physician"?

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drlisa0318

drlisa0318

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In the October 2007 Journal Oklahoma State Medical Association, President's Page, W.H. Oehlert, MD,MMM, writes that in May, US Rep. John Sullivan (R, OK) and Jim McDermott (D, WA) introduced a new bill - Health Care Truth and Transparency Act of 2007, which would require that health care profesionals clearly state their professional credentials in advertisements.

In Oklahoma statute, 9 classes of persons may use the word "Doctor" or an abbreviation thereof:

1. DPM (podiatry)
2. DC (chiropractic)
3. DDS or DMD (dentistry)
4. MD (medicine/surgery)
5. OD (optometry)
6. DO (medicine/surgery)
7. Phd, EdD, PsyD (health service psychologist)
8. PhD, EdD (speech/language pathologist)
9. PdD, EdD (audiologist)

It used to be that Classes 1 - 7 could use the term "Physician", but the statute has been amended to limit that to Classes 3, 4, and 6 (DDS/DMD, MD, and DO).

He ends with this, "There are 9 classes of "Doctors", and 3 classes of "Physicians", but only 2 classes who "practice medicine", MDs and DOs."

Anyone know of other states' views on this?
 
fix 6 to DO. Also I consider a podiatrist more of a physician then a normal dentist, OMFS is a different story.




:corny:
 
I dont see how anyone with anything other than a DO or an MD can call themselves a "physician" without any kind of possible legal ramifications.
 
MSKalltheway said:
I dont see how anyone with anything other than a DO or an MD can call themselves a "physician" without any kind of possible legal ramifications.
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Well, certainly in Oklahoma that is the case, although Dr. Oehlert notes that it is only a misdemeanor. I don't know about other states, though.
 
drlisa0318 said:
Well, certainly in Oklahoma that is the case, although Dr. Oehlert notes that it is only a misdemeanor. I don't know about other states, though.
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Oh my bad, I just re-read your original post, thanks for clearing that up! Studying pharm and neuro on a headache is no good 😳
 
They also need to limit who can refer to themselves as "Dr" in the clinical setting. A PhD should not introduce themselves as "Dr.".
 
Aren't veterinarians allowed to call themselves doctors?
 
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Does anybody else think it is pretentious how lawyers all call themselves "attorneys" and doctors (who are physicians) all call themselves "physicians"?

When does that switch happen? You know when they were 18 they weren't wandering around saying "I want to be a physician." They said "I want to be a doctor." But yet somehow they are 30 and nobody says "I am a doctor" or "I am a lawyer." Who knows why it annoys me but it does.
 
SalseraDoctora said:
Does anybody else think it is pretentious how lawyers all call themselves "attorneys" and doctors (who are physicians) all call themselves "physicians"?

When does that switch happen? You know when they were 18 they weren't wandering around saying "I want to be a physician." They said "I want to be a doctor." But yet somehow they are 30 and nobody says "I am a doctor" or "I am a lawyer." Who knows why it annoys me but it does.
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The title physician is more accurate than doctor. The etymology of physician means something like "one who treats using physics," where physics = nature/medicine/drugs. As opposed to a surgeon, who treats using his hands.

Doctor is derived from the word for teacher, and, I think, refers to the degree not the occupation.

The Greeks and Romans had it right.
 
SalseraDoctora said:
Does anybody else think it is pretentious how lawyers all call themselves "attorneys" and doctors (who are physicians) all call themselves "physicians"?

When does that switch happen? You know when they were 18 they weren't wandering around saying "I want to be a physician." They said "I want to be a doctor." But yet somehow they are 30 and nobody says "I am a doctor" or "I am a lawyer." Who knows why it annoys me but it does.
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Often, it depends on what they do at work, with the degree they have. Take the Law example. A lawyer has a Juris Doctorate, or equivalent. If he decides to practice litigation in the courtroom, he generally calls himself an attorney. If he works in business or industry, he generally calls himself a lawyer. Similarly, in the UK, lawyers are either Barristers, or Solicitors. Barristers are sort of "advocates", whereas Solicitors are what we would call "attorneys".

Physicians might call themselves that in order to indicate that they practice clinical medicine, or to separate themselves from PhDs, PsyDs, or if they want, Surgeons.
 
Ice Nine said:
We have too many labels for these things in the US, and ironically, it is our thirst to be called "doctor" that drives tuition up. Physical therapy, audiology, and pharmacy used to be Bachelor's-level professions. Now, with the goading of a few accrediting bodies and a few more dollars per credit hour, everybody can be a doctor. 😀
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I wouldn't call something like pharmacy or audiology a baccalaureate degree. They were professional degrees, just like ours in medicine. You had to have a baccalaureate first. They didn't used to be doctoral-level programs, but - whatever.

I don't really mind who chooses to call him- or herself "doctor" as long as he/she holds a doctoral degree in something. It is actually an odd conceit in the United States that only medical practitioners and dentists use the title "doctor" socially, outside the workplace - it's not done in the rest of the world. But, we've managed to grab the title for ourselves and it's a social convention here.

For that matter, in most Commonwealth countries medical practitioners aren't addressed as "doctor" because a basic medical degree is the M.B.B.S. "M.D." is an advanced degree requiring post-doctoral work and is held by researchers and academicians.

I've seen dozens of these threads in the pre-med forums also. What's important is who can append the letters "M.D." or "D.O." to his name. And this is where the forums get totally bizarre and off-track because the young'uns don't understand that, in Oklahoma and most places that I know of, M.D. and D.O. are academic titles as well as professional titles which are regulated by the state. You may have earned an M.D. or D.O. degree, but because it's a professional title (in addition to being an academic degree) you don't have the right to use those letters after your name publicly unless you have a right to practice medicine. Therefore, if you have a training license, a full license, or emeritus status, you can put M.D. or D.O. after your name. If, however, your license has been suspended or revoked or you never completed an internship/applied for licensure, you cannot, by state law, use the M.D. or D.O. letters, even though you happen to hold that academic degree.

It's confusing because most licensed professions have separate academic and professional titles. I hold a Master's degree in science in accounting, therefore I can use the academic title M.S. after my name for life. I also hold a professional license as a Certified Public Accountant. The professional title C.P.A. is something I can use only when my license is current and in good standing, which is regulated by the state. In medicine, however, the academic and professional title are one and the same.

Phew. Got that off my chest.

Non-TradTulsa, MS, CPA
MS-II (which, of course, means only that I'm overeducated and in debt)
 
I have posted on this before. I am a dental student and dentists are limited to the term doctor instead of physician for obvious reasons. But I feel that Podiatrists are definitely physicians. My brother graduated from Temple Pod and here are the classes he took compaired to Loma Linda's MD program. He also did a three year surgical residency and a fellowship in reconstructive surgery.

Temple Podiatry Years 1 & 2:

Histology - 5 hours
Gross Anatomy w/ Lab - 10 hours
Lower Extremity Anatomy w/ Lab - 4 hours
Neuroscience - 8 hours
Biochemistry/Genetics - 8 hours
Physiology w/ Lab - 12 hours
Fundamentals of Podiatric Practice I - 3 hours
Biomechanics and Orthopedics - 3 hours
Research Design - 3 hours

Fundamentals of Podiatric Practice II - 3 hours
Pharmacology - 5 hours
Medical Microbiology and Immunology w/ Lab - 5 hours
Pathophysiology w/ Lab- 7 hours
Radiology - 8 hours
Foot & Ankle Radiology - 4 hours
Pathomechanics - 6 hours
PDX - 4 hours
Physical Medicine & Rehabilation - 2 hours
Clinical Foot Orthopedics - 2 hours
Podiatric Surgical Principles - 2 hours
Digital & Metatarsal Surgery - 3 hours
Perioperative Protocol - 2 hours
Gerontology - 2 hours

Compaired to LLU SOM

Loma Linda SOM Years 1 & 2

Biochemistry/Molecular Biology & Genetics - 7 hours
Cell Structure & Function - 5 hours
Evidence-based Medicine & Info Science - 1 hour
Gross Anatomy & Embryology - 8 hours
Medical Physiology - 8 hours
Phyiscal Diagnosis & Interviewing - 1 hour
Orientation to Medicine - 1 hour
Medical Neuroscience - 6 hours
Religion & Whole Person Care - 4 hours

Medical Microbiology - 5 hours
Systemic Pathology - 4 hours
Psychopathology - 2 hours
Medical Pharmacology - 3 hours
Clinical Preventative Medicine - 3 hours
Pathophysiology & Applied PDX - 6 hours
Diseases of Neuroscience - 5 hours
Religion & Whole Person Care - 3 hours

It certainly does not take a genius to see the similarity. I would put any podiatrist from Temple up against any Allopathic doctor in any form of Anatomy, Physiology, Patho, Medical Microbiology etc.

3rd and 4th year Podiatry rotations:

Temple years 3 and 4: Thomas Jefferson Hosptial, Temple FA Clinic

Family Medicine
Neurology
Wound Care
Internal Medicine
Pediatrics - Podopediatrics
Dermatology
General Surgery

Acute Care (ER/ICU)
Ambulatory & Community Medicine
Sub-internship Selective : Anesthesia, Geontology
Podiatric Family Medicine
Podiatric Internal Medicine
Pediatrics
Podiatic Surgery - Forefoot and Ankle

Electives (16 weeks)
Anesthesia
General Surgery
Podiatric Surgery
Wound Care
Sports Medicine
Emergency Medicine
Psyciatry

LLU SOM Years 3 and 4

Family Medicine OR Neurology
Gynecology & Obstetrics
Internal Medicine
Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Surgery

Other Classes
Advanced Medical Ethics
Elective

Acute Care (ER/ICU)
Ambulatory & Community Medicine
Neurology OR Family Medicine

Sub-internship Selective (4 wks; choose one):
Family Medicine
Internal Medicine
Pediatrics
Surgery

Other Classes
Electives (18 weeks)


Again, you could probably justify not considering me a physician because of the specialty training that I go through, but you are definitely ignorant if you do not consider a Podiatrist a physician.
 
exnavyflier said:
I have posted on this before. I am a dental student and dentists are limited to the term doctor instead of physician for obvious reasons. But I feel that Podiatrists are definitely physicians. My brother graduated from Temple Pod and here are the classes he took compaired to Loma Linda's MD program. He also did a three year surgical residency and a fellowship in reconstructive surgery.

Temple Podiatry Years 1 & 2:

Histology - 5 hours
Gross Anatomy w/ Lab - 10 hours
Lower Extremity Anatomy w/ Lab - 4 hours
Neuroscience - 8 hours
Biochemistry/Genetics - 8 hours
Physiology w/ Lab - 12 hours
Fundamentals of Podiatric Practice I - 3 hours
Biomechanics and Orthopedics - 3 hours
Research Design - 3 hours

Fundamentals of Podiatric Practice II - 3 hours
Pharmacology - 5 hours
Medical Microbiology and Immunology w/ Lab - 5 hours
Pathophysiology w/ Lab- 7 hours
Radiology - 8 hours
Foot & Ankle Radiology - 4 hours
Pathomechanics - 6 hours
PDX - 4 hours
Physical Medicine & Rehabilation - 2 hours
Clinical Foot Orthopedics - 2 hours
Podiatric Surgical Principles - 2 hours
Digital & Metatarsal Surgery - 3 hours
Perioperative Protocol - 2 hours
Gerontology - 2 hours

Compaired to LLU SOM

Loma Linda SOM Years 1 & 2

Biochemistry/Molecular Biology & Genetics - 7 hours
Cell Structure & Function - 5 hours
Evidence-based Medicine & Info Science - 1 hour
Gross Anatomy & Embryology - 8 hours
Medical Physiology - 8 hours
Phyiscal Diagnosis & Interviewing - 1 hour
Orientation to Medicine - 1 hour
Medical Neuroscience - 6 hours
Religion & Whole Person Care - 4 hours

Medical Microbiology - 5 hours
Systemic Pathology - 4 hours
Psychopathology - 2 hours
Medical Pharmacology - 3 hours
Clinical Preventative Medicine - 3 hours
Pathophysiology & Applied PDX - 6 hours
Diseases of Neuroscience - 5 hours
Religion & Whole Person Care - 3 hours

It certainly does not take a genius to see the similarity. I would put any podiatrist from Temple up against any Allopathic doctor in any form of Anatomy, Physiology, Patho, Medical Microbiology etc.

3rd and 4th year Podiatry rotations:

Temple years 3 and 4: Thomas Jefferson Hosptial, Temple FA Clinic

Family Medicine
Neurology
Wound Care
Internal Medicine
Pediatrics - Podopediatrics
Dermatology
General Surgery

Acute Care (ER/ICU)
Ambulatory & Community Medicine
Sub-internship Selective : Anesthesia, Geontology
Podiatric Family Medicine
Podiatric Internal Medicine
Pediatrics
Podiatic Surgery - Forefoot and Ankle

Electives (16 weeks)
Anesthesia
General Surgery
Podiatric Surgery
Wound Care
Sports Medicine
Emergency Medicine
Psyciatry

LLU SOM Years 3 and 4

Family Medicine OR Neurology
Gynecology & Obstetrics
Internal Medicine
Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Surgery

Other Classes
Advanced Medical Ethics
Elective

Acute Care (ER/ICU)
Ambulatory & Community Medicine
Neurology OR Family Medicine

Sub-internship Selective (4 wks; choose one):
Family Medicine
Internal Medicine
Pediatrics
Surgery

Other Classes
Electives (18 weeks)


Again, you could probably justify not considering me a physician because of the specialty training that I go through, but you are definitely ignorant if you do not consider a Podiatrist a physician.
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Why do people do this? Everyone over in the pod forum's always trying to post how "close" their curriculum is to some random MD curriculum by posting the classes side by side. Let me set something straight - you're NOT proving anything. Just because some of the classes are named the same thing doesn't mean they're the same class. Even if they're taught by the same faculty as the MD course, you're competing against different students. Even if you're competing with the same students (MD), you've got a differently structured curriculum. Even if you've got an IDENTICAL curriculum, you've got different entrance exams, admissions requirements, admissions standards, facilities, accreditation bodies, licensing exams, degree granted, and that "specialized training" we hear so much about. Stop trying to say it's the same thing, because although it may be in some ways (maybe very important ways) equivalent, it's not the same.

You should stick to the "we're the best at what we do because we're different" stance. It works. The proof is in the pudding.

That said, I don't know whether I consider podiatrists "physicians", but it doesn't sit right.
 
exnavyflier said:
Again, you could probably justify not considering me a physician because of the specialty training that I go through, but you are definitely ignorant if you do not consider a Podiatrist a physician.
Click to expand...

I don't exactly agree with you. Even if you compared dentistry to medicine, the training is pretty much the same in the first two years. I would actually say that podiatry school is about as different from medical school as dental school is. Responsibilities are similar; dentists and podiatrists both work in a confined part of the body, prescribe medications, use anesthetics, do surgery...so by that logic, why can't you call a dentist a physician?

I dont think there is any problem with saying a podiatrist is not a physician. I feel like its almost insulting to other professions to say they are physicians also, because that takes away from the knowledge base they really have. Physicians dont know as much about the feet as podiatrists do by the nature of the training. If I went to podiatry school, I would say "Dont call me a physician, they dont know what I know."

I dont know why anyone would want to call themselves a physician if you didnt go to medical school. Calling yourself a physician without the schooling would be doing your profession a disservice. The term "doctor" can be used for anyone who is an expert in the field with the advanced training leading to a degree. The term "physician" should only be used for those who went to medical school, such as "podiatrist" should only be for those docs who went to podiatry school.

I'm sure podiatrists would not want an orthopaedic foot surgeon calling him/herself a "podiatrist".
 
Northerner said:
Let me set something straight - you're NOT proving anything.
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Yeah. It seems like if you really respect your chosen field, you wouldn't feel like you have to equate it to something else. Ortho spine doesn't run around saying they're "just like Neurosurgery". And even the nurses don't insist that they're "almost doctors" (even if some of them like to act that way).
 
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The Pods at DMU take the same basic science classes (biochem, micro, pharm, organ systems etc) with DO's, but the clinical years are not the same obviously.
 
Toohotinvegas33 said:
The Pods at DMU take the same basic science classes (biochem, micro, pharm, organ systems etc) with DO's, but the clinical years are not the same obviously.
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I forget - how many points do we award for random facts that add nothing to the discussion? Is it still none?
 
I think I should be rewarded at least one point because my post is not random, it reinforces EXNAVY's statement of pods taking the same classes, although he compared then by the name of the class ( which I think is incorrect to do since, chiro schools take alot of what looks like med class) to another schools. Whereas I stated they are in the exact same class. Although, their overall workloads tends to be lighter then ours thoughout the year.
 
Toohotinvegas33 said:
I think I should be rewarded at least one point because my post is not random, it reinforces EXNAVY's statement of pods taking the same classes, although he compared then by the name of the class ( which I think is incorrect to do since, chiro schools take alot of what looks like med class) to another schools. Whereas I stated they are in the exact same class. Although, their overall workloads tends to be lighter then ours thoughout the year.
Click to expand...

You lost me. I think you said something about....something.
 
Toohotinvegas33 said:
The Pods at DMU take the same basic science classes (biochem, micro, pharm, organ systems etc) with DO's, but the clinical years are not the same obviously.
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Actually, this is incorrect. Yes they do take some classes together, the basic sciences, they do NOT undergo the same and I would assume as intensive organ systems courses as the DOs. We are in Respiratory and they are in Neuro as of right now.

Sorry Charlie😳
 
cmeshy said:
Actually, this is incorrect. Yes they do take some classes together, the basic sciences, they do NOT undergo the same and I would assume as intensive organ systems courses as the DOs. We are in Respiratory and they are in Neuro as of right now.

Sorry Charlie😳
Click to expand...

More intense.
 
Non-TradTulsa said:
For that matter, in most Commonwealth countries medical practitioners aren't addressed as "doctor" because a basic medical degree is the M.B.B.S. "M.D." is an advanced degree requiring post-doctoral work and is held by researchers and academicians.
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This is wrong. Of course medical practitioners are referred to as Dr here. MBBS is equivalent to your MD.

Our MD is a research degree for people who are already doctors.
 
Non-TradTulsa said:
I wouldn't call something like pharmacy or audiology a baccalaureate degree. They were professional degrees, just like ours in medicine. You had to have a baccalaureate first. They didn't used to be doctoral-level programs, but - whatever.

I don't really mind who chooses to call him- or herself "doctor" as long as he/she holds a doctoral degree in something. It is actually an odd conceit in the United States that only medical practitioners and dentists use the title "doctor" socially, outside the workplace - it's not done in the rest of the world. But, we've managed to grab the title for ourselves and it's a social convention here.

For that matter, in most Commonwealth countries medical practitioners aren't addressed as "doctor" because a basic medical degree is the M.B.B.S. "M.D." is an advanced degree requiring post-doctoral work and is held by researchers and academicians.

I've seen dozens of these threads in the pre-med forums also. What's important is who can append the letters "M.D." or "D.O." to his name. And this is where the forums get totally bizarre and off-track because the young'uns don't understand that, in Oklahoma and most places that I know of, M.D. and D.O. are academic titles as well as professional titles which are regulated by the state. You may have earned an M.D. or D.O. degree, but because it's a professional title (in addition to being an academic degree) you don't have the right to use those letters after your name publicly unless you have a right to practice medicine. Therefore, if you have a training license, a full license, or emeritus status, you can put M.D. or D.O. after your name. If, however, your license has been suspended or revoked or you never completed an internship/applied for licensure, you cannot, by state law, use the M.D. or D.O. letters, even though you happen to hold that academic degree.

It's confusing because most licensed professions have separate academic and professional titles. I hold a Master's degree in science in accounting, therefore I can use the academic title M.S. after my name for life. I also hold a professional license as a Certified Public Accountant. The professional title C.P.A. is something I can use only when my license is current and in good standing, which is regulated by the state. In medicine, however, the academic and professional title are one and the same.

Phew. Got that off my chest.

Non-TradTulsa, MS, CPA
MS-II (which, of course, means only that I'm overeducated and in debt)
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Thats rediculous. What about whose with an MD/DO that are medical scientists, researchers, PIs, and professors? Are their business cards supposed so say "John Smith, B.S., Professor, Department of Pathology"? Nonsense
 
Oh my gosh, this is silly. I shouldn't let myself get sucked into one of these, but:

It has nothing to do with the courses you take, requirements, anything like that. A scenario:

Girl at bar: Hey, what do you do?
Dude at bar: I'm a doctor.
GAB: Oh, how interesting. *Bats eyelashes* What kind?
DAB: A veterinarian (Substitute: dentist/chiropractor.)

Yes, you could technically say that, but it is deceptive. Why would you say that when there is a widely known word that already describes what you do? Dentist - BAM - Everybody knows exactly what that is. Why would you say physician unless you were trying to get people to believe you were something other than what you are?

Similar scenario:
Wife: How much did this [Xbox/Samurai Sword/Taser gun] cost?
Husband: Not that much. .
W: How much is that?
H: Like a hundred bucks.
W: $100?
H: 😳 $175

In the professional setting, of course all of the above mentioned people can and should say, "Hi, I'm Dr. Flibittyjibbit," when they walk into the room to see a patient or introduce themselves to others professionals. But I cannot think of a single reason why it would be necessary for a Podiatrist/Dentist/Whatever to say "I am a Physician," when there is a perfectly good word already existing.

Now, I guess if you want to take this argument to the extreme, then you will say that a Psychiatrist must also say "Psychiatrist," rather than doctor/physician, and surgeons likewise. Although Anesthesiologists, Radiologists, Pathologists, etc. already suffer from a mean case of people not knowing what the hell that is. Don't get me started on Rad Techs saying they are "Radiologists."
 
Sean2tall said:
Oh my gosh, this is silly. I shouldn't let myself get sucked into one of these, but:

It has nothing to do with the courses you take, requirements, anything like that. A scenario:

Girl at bar: Hey, what do you do?
Dude at bar: I'm a doctor.
GAB: Oh, how interesting. *Bats eyelashes* What kind?
DAB: A veterinarian (Substitute: dentist/chiropractor.)

Yes, you could technically say that, but it is deceptive. Why would you say that when there is a widely known word that already describes what you do? Dentist - BAM - Everybody knows exactly what that is. Why would you say physician unless you were trying to get people to believe you were something other than what you are?

Similar scenario:
Wife: How much did this [Xbox/Samurai Sword/Taser gun] cost?
Husband: Not that much. .
W: How much is that?
H: Like a hundred bucks.
W: $100?
H: 😳 $175

In the professional setting, of course all of the above mentioned people can and should say, "Hi, I'm Dr. Flibittyjibbit," when they walk into the room to see a patient or introduce themselves to others professionals. But I cannot think of a single reason why it would be necessary for a Podiatrist/Dentist/Whatever to say "I am a Physician," when there is a perfectly good word already existing.

Now, I guess if you want to take this argument to the extreme, then you will say that a Psychiatrist must also say "Psychiatrist," rather than doctor/physician, and surgeons likewise. Although Anesthesiologists, Radiologists, Pathologists, etc. already suffer from a mean case of people not knowing what the hell that is. Don't get me started on Rad Techs saying they are "Radiologists."
Click to expand...

How do you feel about these radiology techs saying they're "radiologists"?
 
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howelljolly said:
Thats rediculous. What about whose with an MD/DO that are medical scientists, researchers, PIs, and professors? Are their business cards supposed so say "John Smith, B.S., Professor, Department of Pathology"? Nonsense
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?? Most Professors of pathology I know who have either an MD or DO degree I would suspect have completed a training program in Pathology. As long as their license hasn't revoked, then they are allowed to list their degree.

You may want to re-read that again as it sounds like you misunderstood.
 
http://www.naprapathicmedicine.edu/what.htm

No, its not naturopathic.. wait.. no, its not chiropractic.. looks like this is some new thing that has combined "nutritional therapy" from naturopathic and manipulation from chiro and put them together. ...weird.

I feel sometimes like we are back in the old west again with lots of snake oil salesmen.

Ever since the alternative hippy babyboomers became are our main customers, and there there is money to be made ...Welcome to the new west, USA! 🙂
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
?? Most Professors of pathology I know who have either an MD or DO degree I would suspect have completed a training program in Pathology. As long as their license hasn't revoked, then they are allowed to list their degree.

You may want to re-read that again as it sounds like you misunderstood.
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Yeah Pathology was about the lousiest example I could use. Say an MD trained guy doesn't do anything clinical.... Say that he is a Professor of Anatomy or Immunology.... shouldn't he still be able to identify himself as an MD... the indication was that in Oklahoma, its a no-no.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Thank you Hayden.. wow this topic gets old. Check out this link below: they should copy this and make it a sticky so everyone can see it. :idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_professional_degree

👍
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Wikipedia does not make something fact. It is obvious that the writer of much of the first few paragraphs of that wiki page is not from the US. I'm not fond of wiki writers inserting their own opinions and biases into their writings such as has occured above (e.g. considered undergraduate level and "correctly so"). I made a minor correction to that page, but will let the meat of it stand for now.

As has been stated above, you can't ignore the raw fact that many intelligent people in the US deliberated about how to name and refer to such professional degrees, and chose the system we have here. If they had wanted them undergrad, they would have named them as such. Just because someone else disagrees does not make their opinion fact.
 
howelljolly said:
Yeah Pathology was about the lousiest example I could use. Say an MD trained guy doesn't do anything clinical.... Say that he is a Professor of Anatomy or Immunology.... shouldn't he still be able to identify himself as an MD... the indication was that in Oklahoma, its a no-no.
Click to expand...

I think immunologists have to complete a residency too.

Basically as long as you have completed at least 1 postgraduate year (internship) and register your degree and obtain a medical license, then yes you can advertise yourself as an "MD". If you don't then you can't. Thems is the rules. 🙂

I don't think requiring 1 year of internship/postgraduate residency is really asking that much. I think it is a resonable request.
 
osli said:
Wikipedia does not make something fact. It is obvious that the writer of much of the first few paragraphs of that wiki page is not from the US. I'm not fond of wiki writers inserting their own opinions and biases into their writings such as has occured above (e.g. considered undergraduate level and "correctly so"). I made a minor correction to that page, but will let the meat of it stand for now.

As has been stated above, you can't ignore the raw fact that many intelligent people in the US deliberated about how to name and refer to such professional degrees, and chose the system we have here. If they had wanted them undergrad, they would have named them as such. Just because someone else disagrees does not make their opinion fact.
Click to expand...

I believe that the links they have provided (ie. professional doctorates MD, DDS, OD, et are not equal to PhD. ie true doctorates) This is an American perspective..-> Direct from the US Dept. of Education. 👍

Also, pretty much every medical board in the US will allow someone with a Bachelors of Medicine to use the title "MD" if they are practicing in the US because they are recognised as equivalent allopathic medical degrees, and are granted the exact same medical license. This too is an American perspective direct from the US states boards of Medicine.

Other than that.. I do agree with you on your viewpoint of Wikipedia. However, if the authors are properly referencing their sources as they should then the idea is that yes, it would be a good source of information.

Also, many intelligent people from around the world (ie. everyone but the US) has come to the conclusion that the first degree (first professional degree) that you obtain should be called a Bachelors (even if a previous degree is required for admission) because it is the first degree that you are obtaining in that field of study (ie. you are studying that field at the entry-level). This is the traditional structure of the education system. Even in Canada whose medical schools are equally accredited by the LCME and call them (MD) Doctor of Medicine degrees.. they still consider them undergraduate degrees.

MD = undergraduate medical education

Residency = graduate medical education


Refering back to intelligent people calling degrees doctorates.. what about Physical therapy, which by the way used to be a bachelors, then a masters, and now DPT. Do you think there are any other motivating factors involved here (ie. Money$?).

They are all just entry level degrees. Someone who graduate wtih a BSPT or MSPT a few years ago is just as equally trained as a physical therapist as a fresh DPT grad. At the end of the day you are still just a basic licensed physical therapist regardless of what degree you have. I think the main reasons they are starting to call them "doctorates" (for PT at least) is because in the US it can be used as a political bargening chip to push for wider scope of practice and practice without physician prescription and oversight, not to mention american kids like the idea of being called "doctor" no matter what area of health service you are in.. (nursing, physical therapy, chiropractic, naturopathic, etc etc) it makes their degrees more marketable and can charge more $$tuition$$ for them. 🙂

Peace
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I believe that the links they have provided (ie. professional doctorates MD, DDS, OD, et are not equal to PhD. ie true doctorates) This is an American perspective..-> Direct from the US Dept. of Education. 👍
Click to expand...
Interesting that the referenced page is US/gov yet the stuff contained in it is decidedly not of an American perspective. The stuff said about "Osteopathy" in that page is just atrocious... either forty years out of date, or from someone who just don't have a clue about the education system in the US. In light of the perspective given on "first professional degrees" I'm thinking it might well be the latter.
 
osli said:
Interesting that the referenced page is US/gov yet the stuff contained in it is decidedly not of an American perspective. The stuff said about "Osteopathy" in that page is just atrocious... either forty years out of date, or from someone who just don't have a clue about the education system in the US. In light of the perspective given on "first professional degrees" I'm thinking it might well be the latter.
Click to expand...

I really don't know what your still going on about... The only thing it said was that at one point in the article it used the word "osteopathy" instead of "osteopathic medicine", but I see that you've changed it. 👍 Obviously you're a DO student. 🙂 Don't worry the page never insinuated that DO was less than MD in (in the US). A number of people are involved in editing wiki pages, which is why you will get many perspectives on different issues. (which is supposed to make it a good thing) and make the information less biased. Again, everything that is posted should ideally be referenced. 👍
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I think immunologists have to complete a residency too.

Basically as long as you have completed at least 1 postgraduate year (internship) and register your degree and obtain a medical license, then yes you can advertise yourself as an "MD". If you don't then you can't. Thems is the rules. 🙂

I don't think requiring 1 year of internship/postgraduate residency is really asking that much. I think it is a resonable request.
Click to expand...

What about people that go to med school and go straight for administration or research, or teaching, and not for internship at all?
 
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howelljolly said:
What about people that go to med school and go straight for administration or research, or teaching, and not for internship at all?
Click to expand...

Again, I don't think that the requirement for 1 year of internship in order to register your medical degree is really that big of a hurdle. If you wanted to be a doctor so badly and you chose to attend medical school, you should have understood the fact that you would be doing 1 year of internship and going through the normal steps to procure a medical license like everyone else.

I don't make the rules. But that is what they say, and not only in Oklahoma. I think this is pretty standard across the United States.

What's the big deal anyways.. 1 year of internship and then you can go straight into your MBA, MHA, or whatever else it is you wanted to do. 👍 Good luck.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Again, I don't think that the requirement for 1 year of internship in order to register your medical degree is really that big of a hurdle. If you wanted to be a doctor so badly and you chose to attend medical school, you should have understood the fact that you would be doing 1 year of internship and going through the normal steps to procure a medical license like everyone else.

I don't make the rules. But that is what they say, and not only in Oklahoma. I think this is pretty standard across the United States.

What's the big deal anyways.. 1 year of internship and then you can go straight into your MBA, MHA, or whatever else it is you wanted to do. 👍 Good luck.
Click to expand...

Methinks you misunderstand me. I have no intention of doing this myself. In any event Im speaking hypothetically.

In the example of Oklahoma's law, if someone goes to med school... does a residency in Immunology, perhaps, works for 20 years perhaps (all in New York). Then he gets stressed out and moves out to Oklahoma for the "wide open spaces", to run a dairy farm, and to teach immunology in the med school there.
Though he was liscenced and practicing in New York, he never applied for a licence Oklahoma, since he only plans to teach. According to Oklahoma law (so the above post suggests), he cant identify himself as an MD, even though he does have that degree.
Thats not cool
 
howelljolly said:
Methinks you misunderstand me. I have no intention of doing this myself. In any event Im speaking hypothetically.

In the example of Oklahoma's law, if someone goes to med school... does a residency in Immunology, perhaps, works for 20 years perhaps (all in New York). Then he gets stressed out and moves out to Oklahoma for the "wide open spaces", to run a dairy farm, and to teach immunology in the med school there.
Though he was liscenced and practicing in New York, he never applied for a licence Oklahoma, since he only plans to teach. According to Oklahoma law (so the above post suggests), he cant identify himself as an MD, even though he does have that degree.
Thats not cool
Click to expand...


I understand what you're saying.

In this particular example however, it shouldn't be a problem because the doctor has completed a residency and has obtained a medical license in NY state. When he moves to Oklahoma and wants to teach at the medical school, all he would have to do is put in an application for an Oklahoma medical license and he would most definitly get one. Even if he wasn't practicing, he would be definitly eligible for an "academic license".

Still he would need to obtain a license to advertise himself as an MD to the public. However, for him it wouldnt require anything more than filing some paperwork with his new state board of medicine (oklahoma) 👍

Again, not an unreasonable hurdle.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I understand what you're saying.

In this particular example however, it shouldn't be a problem because the doctor has completed a residency and has obtained a medical license in NY state. When he moves to Oklahoma and wants to teach at the medical school, all he would have to do is put in an application for an Oklahoma medical license and he would most definitly get one. Even if he wasn't practicing, he would be definitly eligible for an "academic license".

Still he would need to obtain a license to advertise himself as an MD to the public. However, for him it wouldnt require anything more than filing some paperwork with his new state board of medicine (oklahoma) 👍

Again, not an unreasonable hurdle.
Click to expand...

gotcha. I didnt even know there was anything like an academic licence.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
I really don't know what your still going on about... The only thing it said was that at one point in the article it used the word "osteopathy" instead of "osteopathic medicine", but I see that you've changed it. 👍
Click to expand...

Sorry, perhaps I should have been more clear. The post of mine you are referring to ("going on about...") was not about the wiki page, but the reference it listed that takes you to the USNEI page about first professional degrees.

http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/us/edlite-professional-studies.html

While I may have minor issues with the semantics of people elsewhere thinking that their way is the only way (and don't get me wrong... I don't the the US's system of handing out professional doctorates is the only way, just an equally valid and logical way), I have major issues with the bias contained in the above linked us.gov webpage. I thought the government in the US gave up that kind of thinking some thirty or forty years ago. The AMA certainly did.

It starts of by clearly segregating "osteopathy" from "medicine." Scroll further down the page, and you'll find the same thing again but with some startling "details" provided as well. I find it interesting that allopathic is a medical curriculum, while osteopathic is just a curriculum. Apparently MD residencies are supervised too... I guess DO programs are not? And virtually all MD graduates go on to residency, but it seems that a lot of DO graduates do not. I wonder what the hell they do. But the worst atrocity on that site is the statement that DO graduates are 'qualified for some residency programs'.

Hence why I stated that it wouldn't surprise me if that us.gov page was written by someone completely unfamiliar with the US education system. This sounds like it came from someone more familiar with the European system or something that just doesn't have a clue about osteopathic medicine in the US.
 
osli said:
I thought the government in the US gave up that kind of thinking some thirty or forty years ago. The AMA certainly did.

It starts of by clearly segregating "osteopathy" from "medicine." Scroll further down the page, and you'll find the same thing again but with some startling "details" provided as well. I find it interesting that allopathic is a medical curriculum, while osteopathic is just a curriculum. Apparently MD residencies are supervised too... I guess DO programs are not? And virtually all MD graduates go on to residency, but it seems that a lot of DO graduates do not. I wonder what the hell they do. But the worst atrocity on that site is the statement that DO graduates are 'qualified for some residency programs'.
Click to expand...

Ok, I see what you're saying. Sorry for the misunderstanding.. as I thought you were referring to the wiki page.

I agree with you.. maybe you should email the webmaster or someone in charge of the website at the US dept of education and let them know they need to update their information concerning osteopathic medicine education in the US. 👍

But yeah, I still stand behind the fact that MBBS = MD (the AMA supports this as well) just as they support MD = DO (in the US). I think that they sometimes tend to group MBBS with MD more so than DO because they did at least originate with different philosophies or approaches to patient care, even if they are not much different now.

MD and MBBS being Allopathic and DO as Osteopathic.

but for the practice of medicine in the United States they are all equal. MD=MBBS=DO.

👍
 
Are PharmD's called Doctor?
 
I guess I more or less see a DPM and a DDS/DMD as a physician along with MD and DO.

I have seen chiroquactors advertise as "physicians" when I don't think they deserve to be called "doctor".
 
Jpc984 said:
Are PharmD's called Doctor?
Click to expand...

Yep. The multiple times that they will save you during your residency will show you that they deserve it, too.
 
Dr.Millisevert said:
Ok, I see what you're saying. Sorry for the misunderstanding.. as I thought you were referring to the wiki page.

I agree with you.. maybe you should email the webmaster or someone in charge of the website at the US dept of education and let them know they need to update their information concerning osteopathic medicine education in the US. 👍

But yeah, I still stand behind the fact that MBBS = MD (the AMA supports this as well) just as they support MD = DO (in the US). I think that they sometimes tend to group MBBS with MD more so than DO because they did at least originate with different philosophies or approaches to patient care, even if they are not much different now.

MD and MBBS being Allopathic and DO as Osteopathic.

but for the practice of medicine in the United States they are all equal. MD=MBBS=DO.

👍
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any debate as to MD=MBBS=DO
 
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