Doctor shortage is a myth

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MacGyver

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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/10/o...87e668bc4&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss


Too Many Doctors in the House

By DAVID C. GOODMAN
Published: July 10, 2006
Hanover, N.H.

CAN we cure our ailing health care system by sending in more doctors? That is the treatment prescribed by the Association of American Medical Colleges, which has recommended increasing the number of doctors they train by 30 percent, in large part to keep up with the growing number of elderly patients. But the most serious problems facing our health care system — accelerating costs, poor quality of care and the rising ranks of the uninsured — cannot be solved by more doctors. In fact, that approach, like prescribing more drugs for an already overmedicated patient, may only make things worse.

Many studies have demonstrated that quality of care does not rise along with the number of doctors. Compare Miami and Minneapolis, for example. Miami has 40 percent more doctors per capita than Minneapolis has, and 50 percent more specialists, according to The Dartmouth Atlas of Health Care, a study of American health care markets (for which I am an investigator).

The elderly in Miami are subjected to more medical interventions — more echocardiograms and mechanical ventilation in their last six months of life, for example — than elderly patients in Minneapolis are. This also means more hospitalizations, more days in intensive care units, more visits to specialists and more diagnostic tests for the elderly in Miami. It certainly leads to many more doctors employed in Florida. But does this expensive additional medical activity benefit patients?

Apparently not. The elderly in places like Miami do not live longer than those in cities like Minneapolis. According to the Medicare Current Beneficiary Survey, which polls some 12,000 elderly Americans about their health care three times a year, residents of regions with relatively large numbers of doctors are no more satisfied with their care than the elderly who live in places with fewer doctors. And various studies have demonstrated that the essential quality of care in places like Miami — whether you are talking about the treatment of colon cancer, heart attacks or any other specific ailment — is no higher than in cities like Minneapolis.

Studies of individual hospitals have likewise shown that while the doctor-patient ratio varies widely from place to place, more doctors do not mean better care.

The Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and the University of California, San Francisco, Medical Center each have about one doctor treating every 100 elderly patients with chronic illnesses in their last six months of life. New York University Medical Center has 2.8 doctors for every 100 such patients and the University of California, Los Angeles, Medical Center has 1.7. The elderly patients at N.Y.U. and U.C.L.A., as compared with those at the Mayo Clinic and the San Francisco hospital, see more specialists and are subjected to more imaging tests and other procedures. But the quality of their care, as judged by doctors, is no better.

Using the N.Y.U. doctor-patient ratio as a benchmark for determining the number of physicians that will be needed to care for the over-65 population in the year 2020, we can project a deficit of more than 44,000 doctors nationwide. But if the benchmark is based on the Mayo ratio, we can project an excess of nearly 50,000 doctors in the year 2020.

How can it be that more spending and greater physician effort does not lead to better health or to improvements in patient satisfaction? One explanation may be that when more doctors are around, patients spend more time in hospitals, and hospitals are risky places. More than 100,000 deaths a year are estimated to be caused by medical mishaps.

The association of medical colleges has argued that increasing the doctor supply overall can remedy regional shortages. But in the past 20 years, as the number of doctors per capita grew by more than 50 percent, according to our measurements, most of the new ones settled in areas where the supply was already above average — places like Florida or New York — rather than in regions that lack doctors, like the rural South. Medical training is an expensive business, and it makes little sense to waste additional public dollars to perpetuate doctors' preference to live in affluent places.

By training more doctors than we need, we will continue to fill more hospital beds, order more diagnostic tests — in short, spend more money. But our resources would be better directed toward improving efforts to prevent illness and manage chronic ailments like diabetes and heart disease.

Better coordination of care is also worth investment. Small physician groups in disconnected offices often provide fragmented treatments, while multispecialty practices integrated with hospitals — prevalent in Minneapolis and some other cities — are associated with lower cost and higher quality of care.

All these strategies have been shown to improve patient outcomes without adding physicians. Instead of training more doctors, let's make better use of the ones we already have.

David C. Goodman is a professor of pediatrics and family medicine at Dartmouth Medical School.


There are currently 34 new med schools planned across the United States, that will expand the # of graduating doctors by over 25%. Thats not counting the expanding classes of existing medical schools, which could push that number upwards of 35%.

Thats absolutely unprecedented growth. The last time med schools expanded by that amount was before the Flexner report in the late 1800s.

There are some powerful people selling us a line of bull**** about the so-called "doctor shortage" and the consequences for us could be disastrous.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/10/o...87e668bc4&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss





There are currently 34 new med schools planned across the United States, that will expand the # of graduating doctors by over 25%. Thats not counting the expanding classes of existing medical schools, which could push that number upwards of 35%.

Thats absolutely unprecedented growth. The last time med schools expanded by that amount was before the Flexner report in the late 1800s.

There are some powerful people selling us a line of bull**** about the so-called "doctor shortage" and the consequences for us could be disastrous.

Maybe except the number of residencies is not expanding. What this will probably do is push the IMGs out of the residency spots they have now. This assumes US grads are willing to do primary care which has not been the case before.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
This assumes US grads are willing to do primary care which has not been the case before.

Nah, it's not assumption. People will go into primary care because they have no other residency choice. It's either primary care residency or drop out of medicine completely.

If primary care doctors are struggling to survive in the big cities, many will move more rurally to earn a living. Some will drop out of medicine completely, but most will do whatever they have to use their training and make money.
 
true, primary care docs can make a pretty good living in rural areas. there is a doctor shortage, a significant one, but the mid level providers are taking up the slack. but docs who are willing to relocate to rural areas WILL ALWAYS have a job.
 
The only real piece of data that Dr. Goodman cites in that New York Times article is the 12,000 geezers that they telephone polled. Surprisingly, the grumpy old people were not happy with their healthcare, whether there were lots of doctors around or not that many. Are the elderly ever happy with their healthcare? They generally want to complain that their doctor only spent 8 minutes seeing them (for the $12 Medicare paid the doctor) to deal with their 8 different medical problems and 15 medications.

Clearly Dr. Goodman is not involved with recruiting doctors for his hospital. I am and it is a major struggle. I know quite a few people in the recruiting industry and it is a tough business and not getting easier.

Sure, if this country were Utopia and we could get all the doctors to practice the best evidence based medicine, have all of our patients follow instructions, have hospitals cooperate with doctors, and all sing songs around the campfire at the end of the day, his theory might just work. Unfortunately, this is called "socialized medicine" and it has been tried in many other countries without producing the results he speaks of.

I do agree that our system is faulty and needs major improvement. From having practiced in the real world (i.e. not academia,) I have found that the best healthcare available is in areas where managed care has made the least impact and reimbursement is higher. I practiced in Reno, NV and reimbursement was higher, there were better doctors, lower malpractice rates, and better patient care. I now work in Las Vegas, where pay is lower, we have a much higher percentage of quacks and charlatans, and patient care is sketchy. I have seen the same effect in other areas of the country. Paying everybody more will not change the level of care everywhere, but this is a capitalist country. If the pay is higher, you get better quality.

There is also the philosophic question of "What do Americans really want from healthcare?" Are we measuring outcomes that the consumer really cares about? I have seen that most Americans really see doctors as a way to enable their poor health habits. Most people in this country don't want to change their diet, exercise, quit smoking, or drink less. Modern medicine allows them to do that by providing bariatric surgery, Nissen fundoplications, Prilosec, advanced spine surgery, Phentermine, and a host of other American-lifestyle-enabling therapies. They want these therapies and they want them perfect and they want them now.

So long as Americans continue their current lifestyles, the shortage of doctors will continue. Perhaps Dr. Goodman's vision could someday be realized, but it would have to happen on a micro-geographic level. A national system would only turn into another government sponsored FEMA-strophe.
 
I think that article, while interesting, certainly raises more questions than it answers. Asking the question "how many doctors do we need" is fraught with peril.

As someone mentioned before, assessing patient satisfaction is hardly a good way to determine if physician supply is adequate. I would be most satisfied if there was a small army of specialists at my beck and call but surely this would not represent optimal medical distribution.

We also need to ask "which specialties will be short/glutted?" Once again difficult to answer, I have heard that Ophtho is saturated and yet even in a major metro area I have not heard of an Ophtho resident not finding a (good) job...

This concept of opening new medical schools strikes me as pure madness. Residency spots are funded by the gov't and if they don't increase numbers then there won't be spots. I worry that we might get into a situation where a) a large cadre of med students each year (probably disproportionately DOs) will not be able to go into the specialty of their choice or even worse b) that an MD/DO degree might not even come close to guaranteeing you a residency spot in ANY field.
 
This concept of opening new medical schools strikes me as pure madness. Residency spots are funded by the gov't and if they don't increase numbers then there won't be spots. I worry that we might get into a situation where a) a large cadre of med students each year (probably disproportionately DOs) will not be able to go into the specialty of their choice or even worse b) that an MD/DO degree might not even come close to guaranteeing you a residency spot in ANY field.

Don't you think this is the idea? We all hear all the time about what a shortage of PCPs there is/will be in the future. The more MD's being minted for the same number of (subspecialty) residency spots, the more of them will be shunted into FM-type practice. And as far as their crushed hopes and dreams of being ophthos, derms and orthos, well... I doubt the powers that be really care all that much.
 
I support opening more med schools and increasing enrollment. This will most definitely result in more PCP's because there won't be any other type of residency available to them. It's an effective way to push back the DNP and DrScPA tide because they'll have a harder time using the argument that there are no available doctors to serve.
 
How can one make primary care more attractive to the American medical student? I think, if there was some way to change the infrastructure of the American medical system, which would improve the lifestyle, or the academic interest in primary care... we might solve this problem.

They already have college loan repayment programs if you go to work in an underserved area....

any other ideas? Maybe new fellowships which still keep the doc in a primary care role....
 
How can one make primary care more attractive to the American medical student? I think, if there was some way to change the infrastructure of the American medical system, which would improve the lifestyle, or the academic interest in primary care... we might solve this problem.

They already have college loan repayment programs if you go to work in an underserved area....

any other ideas? Maybe new fellowships which still keep the doc in a primary care role....

The thing that drives me crazy: Which of these pays the worst?

a) Rad/onc for lung cancer
b) Surgical excision of tumor
c) Medical management of metastatic cancer
d) Stenting/CABG for CAD
e) 4 x 20min office visit for smoking cessation counseling

And which of those is the most effective?

Until these insane dynamics are rectified, primary care will continue to be stigmatized.
 
The thing that drives me crazy: Which of these pays the worst?

a) Rad/onc for lung cancer
b) Surgical excision of tumor
c) Medical management of metastatic cancer
d) Stenting/CABG for CAD
e) 4 x 20min office visit for smoking cessation counseling

And which of those is the most effective?

Until these insane dynamics are rectified, primary care will continue to be stigmatized.

Good point. So if theres a way to get the patient to come in for preventative care, and for it to be effective for the patient, and for the PCP's wallet.
But the insurance companies giving incentives for preventative medicine, and high co-pays for tertiary care does work either.
I feel a "Socialized Medicine with salaried physicians" debate coming on
 
Nah, it's not assumption. People will go into primary care because they have no other residency choice. It's either primary care residency or drop out of medicine completely.

If primary care doctors are struggling to survive in the big cities, many will move more rurally to earn a living. Some will drop out of medicine completely, but most will do whatever they have to use their training and make money.

I disagree, you folks underestimate how much PDs now want scores over where you graduated from. The first filter is scores... then comes AMG vs DO vs IMG vs FMG comparisons. Of course it might force some pressure from medical schools but they cant pressure community programs that are not university affiliated... they could influence ecfmg though.
 
If Primary Care were more valued by the average American and our government, Americans probably would be healthier and live longer. The problem is that once we start eating a healthy diet, cease smoking, exercise, and get a colonoscopy every 2 years after age 50, we will all live to age 100 and get neurodegenerative diseases.

Along the lines of the previous post, what is most expensive?

1. surgical excision of lung tumor?
2. 4 vessel CABG
3. whole body MRI
4. 4 x 20 minute visits for smoking cessation
5. 2 months in a skilled nursing facility

I think number 5 comes in at about $80,000. Maybe Medicare and insurance companies have it figured out? By not paying primary care docs, the overall health of America will deteriorate faster and we will die before we start wearing diapers again. This would end up with an overall economic savings.
 
5. 2 months in a skilled nursing facility

I think number 5 comes in at about $80,000. Maybe Medicare and insurance companies have it figured out? By not paying primary care docs, the overall health of America will deteriorate faster and we will die before we start wearing diapers again. This would end up with an overall economic savings.

This might be so, but I've always been under the impression that most insurance co.'s are looking out for about their next 5 years. After that, the patient will probably switch providers and be somebody else's problem. Which is to say, I'm not sure the long-term cost motivation would be their primary concern. Also, probably the majority of patients s/p lobectomy or chemo or whatever will end up with a few months in long-term nursing regardless. All that stuff about spending 50% of healthcare dollars in the last 6 weeks of life, etc etc
 
This is a crazy comparison. Miami has the highest rate of foreigners living in the city of any major city in the country. Of my last three patients, one spent seven years in Cuban prison and two couldn't speak the local language. I doubt that this is as much of a problem in Minneapolis. I wonder how that messes up statistics. Mayo is a private hospital that sees a majority of well insured patients who actually comply with their treatment regimens, which sits in sharp contrast to what anyone sees in a public Miami or NY hospital. Furthermore, Mayo is in Rochester, not Minneapolis. Rochester is a small town that exists essentially for the sole purpose of providing healthcare workers for Mayo.
 
I think that article, while interesting, certainly raises more questions than it answers. Asking the question "how many doctors do we need" is fraught with peril.

As someone mentioned before, assessing patient satisfaction is hardly a good way to determine if physician supply is adequate. I would be most satisfied if there was a small army of specialists at my beck and call but surely this would not represent optimal medical distribution.

We also need to ask "which specialties will be short/glutted?" Once again difficult to answer, I have heard that Ophtho is saturated and yet even in a major metro area I have not heard of an Ophtho resident not finding a (good) job...

This concept of opening new medical schools strikes me as pure madness. Residency spots are funded by the gov't and if they don't increase numbers then there won't be spots. I worry that we might get into a situation where a) a large cadre of med students each year (probably disproportionately DOs) will not be able to go into the specialty of their choice or even worse b) that an MD/DO degree might not even come close to guaranteeing you a residency spot in ANY field.

there are new allopathic and osteopathic med schools opening up, and the AMA wants allopathic med schools to increase enrollment by 30%... this wouldn't even fill the number of EXCESS residency spots already in place. IMGs and FMGs take up the slack. my numbers might be off slightly, but roughly 16,000 US seniors match each year. there are around 8,000 more spots left over for the IMGs/DOs. that's quite a bit.

the only way to increase enrollment this drastically is to take applicants that normally would not have made it into a US med school. this bottom 30% will take the residency spots that IMGs would have taken. not only that, but this bottom 30% are the current students at schools like St. Georges University, some Ross students, AUC students, schools in ireland, israel, australia, etc. these are the students who would make it if enrollment were increased. with 3.5 GPAs and 28 MCATs, they are close, but not close enough. i would be concerned if i were just beginning med school as an IMG. and all the IMGs who have dreams of making it here to the US will have a tuffer time each year that goes by.
 
Don't you think this is the idea? We all hear all the time about what a shortage of PCPs there is/will be in the future. The more MD's being minted for the same number of (subspecialty) residency spots, the more of them will be shunted into FM-type practice. And as far as their crushed hopes and dreams of being ophthos, derms and orthos, well... I doubt the powers that be really care all that much.

Oh I am 100% sure they don't care at all. But I think it is pretty shady to be opening up all these new schools and just hoping that the students will file in primary care residencies.

FM is a great field IMHO but one that is increasing fighting a losing battle with the American public. The LAST thing Americans want is to be told they are too fat, smoke too much, etc etc. The FIRST thing Americans want is sexy, high-dollar therapies to try and put them back together again when they fall apart.

I cannot even imagine what it would be like to be entering the Match with $150k+ in loans and no real chance of matching into the field of my choice. The term "soul-destroying" comes to mind.
 
I really think that people would be willing to go into primary care if the reimbursement were better. I've run into a lot of people who actually like the field, but are just so in debt that they can't do it. I know of a lot of people who say that preventative medicine doesn't work, that people will do what they want anyways, etc, but I think that it does work in many people. In my hospital, we(residents) mostly take care of the "staff" patients, those without insurance, with medicaid, etc, and those people are a mess. The "private" patients who actually have regular doctors that they see on a regualar basis are usually in much better shape. They have more insight to their diseases, and take better care of themselves. If insurance companies started reimbursing for counselling, doctors could spend more time with patients, and salaries would go up. I don't know if this would ever happen though. On average, people change insurance companies every 3-4 years. Insurance companies don't care so much about preventing illness in one of their current clients, because 20 years down the road when the patient is really sick, it will be someone else's problem.
 
the only way to increase enrollment this drastically is to take applicants that normally would not have made it into a US med school. this bottom 30% will take the residency spots that IMGs would have taken. not only that, but this bottom 30% are the current students at schools like St. Georges University, some Ross students, AUC students, schools in ireland, israel, australia, etc. these are the students who would make it if enrollment were increased. with 3.5 GPAs and 28 MCATs, they are close, but not close enough. i would be concerned if i were just beginning med school as an IMG. and all the IMGs who have dreams of making it here to the US will have a tuffer time each year that goes by.


I take the opposite view. With all these scrub medical schools opening up (34 at last count) that means all the americans that used to rely on foreign schools no longer have to do so. Now you can easily get into RVU or Commonwealth/Scranton with your ****ty 3.1 GPA and 24 MCAT.

The carribean schools better be worried. Their revenue stream of americans is going to dry up very quickly.
 
Oh I am 100% sure they don't care at all. But I think it is pretty shady to be opening up all these new schools and just hoping that the students will file in primary care residencies.

FM is a great field IMHO but one that is increasing fighting a losing battle with the American public. The LAST thing Americans want is to be told they are too fat, smoke too much, etc etc. The FIRST thing Americans want is sexy, high-dollar therapies to try and put them back together again when they fall apart.

I cannot even imagine what it would be like to be entering the Match with $150k+ in loans and no real chance of matching into the field of my choice. The term "soul-destroying" comes to mind.

Truer words were never spoken. Be that as it may, I think in the long run the same kind of "waiting game" strategy is also going on with PCP practice. Namely: sure, everyone wants the high-dollar interventional therapies, but the simple fact is that a lot of people just can't afford it even now, and I highly doubt we're at the low point as far as number of uninsured/underinsured goes. Not to mention, as you said, people need many of those interventions in the first place because they didn't take care of themselves.

Consider: one of the incessant complaints about so-called "SOCIALIZED MEDICINE" (cue scary music) is some form of: "grandma had to wait 16 months to get her hip replaced!" Well maybe if grandma didn't wear out her hip by being 100lb. overweight she wouldn't have needed the replacement! Point being, eventually PCP's will make a comeback out of simple economic necessity (or so I hope... anything else would be insane).
 
I take the opposite view. With all these scrub medical schools opening up (34 at last count) that means all the americans that used to rely on foreign schools no longer have to do so. Now you can easily get into RVU or Commonwealth/Scranton with your ****ty 3.1 GPA and 24 MCAT.

Hey! As long as you have a lot of ECs, you're just as good as the kids with a 3.9 and 35!
 
Hey! As long as you have a lot of ECs, you're just as good as the kids with a 3.9 and 35!

Ha ha, you forgot "and as long as you KNOW you're going to be a great doctor!"
 
there are new allopathic and osteopathic med schools opening up, and the AMA wants allopathic med schools to increase enrollment by 30%... this wouldn't even fill the number of EXCESS residency spots already in place. IMGs and FMGs take up the slack. my numbers might be off slightly, but roughly 16,000 US seniors match each year. there are around 8,000 more spots left over for the IMGs/DOs. that's quite a bit.

the only way to increase enrollment this drastically is to take applicants that normally would not have made it into a US med school. this bottom 30% will take the residency spots that IMGs would have taken. not only that, but this bottom 30% are the current students at schools like St. Georges University, some Ross students, AUC students, schools in ireland, israel, australia, etc. these are the students who would make it if enrollment were increased. with 3.5 GPAs and 28 MCATs, they are close, but not close enough. i would be concerned if i were just beginning med school as an IMG. and all the IMGs who have dreams of making it here to the US will have a tuffer time each year that goes by.

No, and Yes. That really isn't quite a bit. Every year there are about twice as many independent applicants as there are extra residency spots.

You bring up a good point though. What are the stats on the 6 primary care fields? I would suspect that at least IM and GS fill completely. A few years ago, FP nearly filled. I think the problem that too may people get OUT of primary care by doing fellowships. Every cardiologist or pediatric intensivist started out in primary care with IM or Peds, and opted out of it.
 
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