Some observations on the AF match results:

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
M

mitchconnie

Member
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Messages
283
Reaction score
2
Members don't see this ad.
For the second year in a row “transitional year” is the most popular specialty in the Air Force.

I count 284 MS IV’s in the match and 70 of them matched into some type of PGY1-only training (transitional year with no follow-on, Gen Surg PG1, IM PG1, etc.). In the Air Force, this means that they will be doing GMO/flight surgery for at least two years before they can re-apply to residency. So in the Air Force, 25% of the MS IV’s will end up as GMO’s. Do not let anyone tell you that the AF does not force people to do GMO’s. I find it very hard to believe that 70 medical students did not want to do a residency.

I also count 75 MS IV’s who matched into non-primary care specialties. Assuming that most of the transitional-year folks wanted to do something other than primary care (likely true), that means MS IV’s have a roughly 50% chance of matching if they want to do something other than primary care. Not good odds, folks…not good at all.

Frankly, I can’t believe that the AF continues to post the match results for all to see—it’s an embarrassment and could be a serious recruiting problem.
 
mitchconnie said:
For the second year in a row “transitional year” is the most popular specialty in the Air Force.

I count 284 MS IV’s in the match and 70 of them matched into some type of PGY1-only training (transitional year with no follow-on, Gen Surg PG1, IM PG1, etc.). In the Air Force, this means that they will be doing GMO/flight surgery for at least two years before they can re-apply to residency. So in the Air Force, 25% of the MS IV’s will end up as GMO’s. Do not let anyone tell you that the AF does not force people to do GMO’s. I find it very hard to believe that 70 medical students did not want to do a residency.

I also count 75 MS IV’s who matched into non-primary care specialties. Assuming that most of the transitional-year folks wanted to do something other than primary care (likely true), that means MS IV’s have a roughly 50% chance of matching if they want to do something other than primary care. Not good odds, folks…not good at all.

Frankly, I can’t believe that the AF continues to post the match results for all to see—it’s an embarrassment and could be a serious recruiting problem.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I wanted to know. Too many times we get punished by crazies that we put down the system etc etc etc. I even posted this question on the thread about GME selection. So it seems that at least in the AF, the chance for not going straight through your training is highly significant. As for surgical specialties, the debate about the quality of training has been debated. So of us who were in training programs still hold the belief that they are subpar.

It would be interesting to see what the Army and Navy results are/

Thanks for your deciphering of the data Mitch, I hope it puts into perspective what can happen if you take HPSP without knowing all the facts.
 
In the AF match, last yr people who didn't get a categorical residency had to serve 2 yrs as GMO/flight surgeon before reapplying. There was an email sent out that was posted on this forum somewhere. This did not happen this year though and my understanding is that people who didn't match this year beyond PGY1 can reapply next year.
 
NJEMT1 is correct, the policy of forcing GMO/Flight Surgery tours on those PGY1s who did not match into a categorical residency was only for last year. Those that only matched into 1 year of training today will have the opportunity to reapply next year. Then it is possible they won't match into a resdency and would have to complete a FS/GMO tour.
 
AFDuck said:
NJEMT1 is correct, the policy of forcing GMO/Flight Surgery tours on those PGY1s who did not match into a categorical residency was only for last year. Those that only matched into 1 year of training today will have the opportunity to reapply next year. Then it is possible they won't match into a resdency and would have to complete a FS/GMO tour.
Click to expand...

BULLS#IT! Don't believe the lies. This corrupt, immoral, unethical policy has been going on for years. 4 years ago the same thing happened to my cohort. 25% of us got one year of training and Shanghaied onto the slave ship of GMO/FS. This is old news. The military has no intention of changing this. They will continue to **** the hopes and dreams of doctors until nobody is stupid enough to join this shamefully dirty organization. You made a deal with the devil and lost. Welcome to hell.
 
That was impressively angry. For what its worth, what I wrote is 'officially' correct. The mandatory FS/GMO memo expired and was not renewed. Maybe in reality it is still being practiced, but we don't have separate breakdowns of the match for the Interns that reapply. I'm sure many don't match on reapplication, but I would guess some do.
 
AFDuck said:
That was impressively angry. For what its worth, what I wrote is 'officially' correct. The mandatory FS/GMO memo expired and was not renewed. Maybe in reality it is still being practiced, but we don't have separate breakdowns of the match for the Interns that reapply. I'm sure many don't match on reapplication, but I would guess some do.
Click to expand...

Keep believing the recruiters, kid. It will serve you well. Perhaps you'll be my commander someday. The JSGME system is set up for a large percentage of you/us to fail. This is how they keep the pipeline of FS/GMO loaded. Ever notice how the residency slots fluctuate but the ~25% of applicants who get intern only slots is fairly constant???

If you got civ deferred, I'm happy for you. If you matched military GME, I'm sorry, you'll be sorely disappointed with the substandard training and I hope you are a self-motivated learner. If you got the "intern only" treatment, join me in being an anti-recruiter. I personally count many lives saved by convincing people out of joining military medicine. Together we can shut down the pipeline and put them out of business.
 
Coastie said:
Can anyone post the AF match results?
Click to expand...

Results can be found here:

http://airforcemedicine.afms.mil/idc/groups/public/documents/webcontent/knowledgejunction.hcst?functionalarea=AFPhysicianEducation&doctype=subpage&docname=CTB_047647

I uploaded them w/o names.

I must not be reading it correctly because I can't tell who is an MSIV and who was a non-select last year. I see 479 names on the list and it doesn't look too bad, unless of course you didn't get what you wanted.
 

Attachments

I must not be reading it correctly because I can't tell who is an MSIV and who was a non-select last year. I see 479 names on the list
Click to expand...

For the most part you can tell the MS IV's because they are O1, while the re-applying flight surgeons, people doing fellowships, or attendings doing a second residency will be O3, O4, or O5. Non-selects are people who have a transitional year with no follow-on specialty noted, or those listed with PG1 after the specialty (i.e. General Surgery PG1).
 
Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but...

it looks like there are quite a few people who were deferred (does that mean put in a civilian residency?) and who matched into civilian sponsored programs. So why does everyone on here keep saying these things are so unbelievably unlikely.

I would say there are more of these than transitional year placements on the list.

which brings me to my next point..there aren't that many transitional years on there....

so what's the deal.

p.s. I realize I don't really know what I'm talking about, but if you could enlighten me i'd appreciate it...I don't need the whole speech that I've read 100000 by the same two people on this forum about how military med is terrible. thanks.
 
it looks like there are quite a few people who were deferred (does that mean put in a civilian residency?) and who matched into civilian sponsored programs. So why does everyone on here keep saying these things are so unbelievably unlikely.
Click to expand...

Deferment to civilian training is unlikely in the Army, but much more likely in the AF. This has historically been one of the big selling points for AF HPSP. At this point, I would say that it remains the only good reason to pick the AF over the Army or Navy HPSP. If you manage to match into your specialty of choice (a big IF in many cases), you are much more likely to get a deferment--perhaps even moreso now that the AF has gutted their medical centers and residency programs.
 
DocWalken said:
Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but...

it looks like there are quite a few people who were deferred (does that mean put in a civilian residency?) and who matched into civilian sponsored programs. So why does everyone on here keep saying these things are so unbelievably unlikely.

I would say there are more of these than transitional year placements on the list.

which brings me to my next point..there aren't that many transitional years on there....

so what's the deal.

p.s. I realize I don't really know what I'm talking about, but if you could enlighten me i'd appreciate it...I don't need the whole speech that I've read 100000 by the same two people on this forum about how military med is terrible. thanks.
Click to expand...

Civilian deferrals are service, specialty, and year specific. Also, as I understand it, USUHS grads are ineligible for a deferral. See my thread on AF EM for details for this year in AF emergency medicine.
 
mitchconnie said:
I count 284 MS IV’s in the match and 70 of them matched into some type of PGY1-only training (transitional year with no follow-on, Gen Surg PG1, IM PG1, etc.). In the Air Force, this means that they will be doing GMO/flight surgery for at least two years before they can re-apply to residency. So in the Air Force, 25% of the MS IV’s will end up as GMO’s. Do not let anyone tell you that the AF does not force people to do GMO’s. I find it very hard to believe that 70 medical students did not want to do a residency.
Click to expand...

How do you know that there were 284 MS-IVs applying? Is this somewhere in the breakdown or explanation?

If this is true, this follows the trend of 20-25% of HPSP/USUHS applicants going to do a GMO/FS (Whether they want to or not). It has been like this for AT LEAST the past 4 years. This is the NORM and nothing will change until we are not actively fighting in any war (like OIF/OEF). Simple fact is we need operational docs much more than residency trained docs. This is something I, for one, wish I would have known or had a better understanding before signing the HPSP contract.

For those that did not match, you have been given a special gift (even if you don't realize it right now). You have been given an oppurtunity to be done with the military after serving as a GMO/FS for either 3 or 4 years (depending on your commitment). After which, you will be competitive to enter civilian residency, debt free, and have no further commitment to the military (except for IRR, which supposedly no doc has ever been "recalled" from IRR). Enjoy your time, do some research, and most importantly enjoy life. Being a flight surgeon allows for a lot of extracurricular activities that you will not have while in residency.

If anybody got only a civilian deferment for transition year only and are going to be a GMO/FS, feel free to PM me with any questions.
 
mitchconnie said:
For the most part you can tell the MS IV's because they are O1, while the re-applying flight surgeons, people doing fellowships, or attendings doing a second residency will be O3, O4, or O5. Non-selects are people who have a transitional year with no follow-on specialty noted, or those listed with PG1 after the specialty (i.e. General Surgery PG1).
Click to expand...


Oh sorry, about the above question. But, new question then...

How do you know which are USUHS students and which are HPSP students? For a long while, I have postulated that USUHS students were more likely to be given residencies and avoid a GMO tour than HPSP students. I would be curious to know if anybody has any idea. So out of the 70 that were given 1 year deferments, how many were HPSP students. It is my "guess" that the number of HPSP students that were not matched into residencies for the AF is closer to 30-35%.
 
sethco said:
Oh sorry, about the above question. But, new question then...

How do you know which are USUHS students and which are HPSP students? For a long while, I have postulated that USUHS students were more likely to be given residencies and avoid a GMO tour than HPSP students. I would be curious to know if anybody has any idea. So out of the 70 that were given 1 year deferments, how many were HPSP students. It is my "guess" that the number of HPSP students that were not matched into residencies for the AF is closer to 30-35%.
Click to expand...

I would be careful with that postulation as I can think of two reasons it may not be true. #1-HPSP students may be better students on average than USUHS students. Perhaps on average the HPSP students were admitted to better medical schools than USUHS. #2-USUHS students aren't eligible for all those deferred spots, so perhaps the USUHS guys/gals are those who get dumped into the one year slots.

I'd be interested in knowing if one group had a higher match rate than the other, but I'm not convinced your guess is accurate.
 
deleted
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
#1-HPSP students may be better students on average than USUHS students. Perhaps on average the HPSP students were admitted to better medical schools than USUHS.
Click to expand...

It's well documented that the quality of new HPSP scholarships over the last few years has declined, at least in terms of gpa/MCAT scores. The Navy can't even fill its scholarships, so clearly they're awarding them to anyone who wants one and meets the minimum requirements.

There's also a greater incentive for DO students to take HPSP scholarships, simply because DO schools tend to be more expensive than MD schools. Not to open a DO vs MD debate, but it's a fact that undergrad gpa/MCAT scores of DO students are (on average) lower than those of MD students.

In contrast to HPSP, if you look at the numbers released by USUHS in recent years, the quality of entering students has not declined to the same degree.

ActiveDutyMD said:
#2-USUHS students aren't eligible for all those deferred spots, so perhaps the USUHS guys/gals are those who get dumped into the one year slots.
Click to expand...

USUHS applicants certainly do have an advantage for PGY-1 slots, because they're required to do inservice internships, while HPSP are not. As a Navy USUHS grad interviewing for internship (in 2001 for the 02-03 class) I was explicitly told by a program director that USUHS students were given some measure of priority. The selection board has to put each USUHS grad somewhere, even the ones who barely make it through. Even so, I doubt this built-in USUHS advantage counts for much in the more competitive specialties (particularly in the Army/AF where categorical internships and straight-through training is more likely).

For GME-2+ Navy applicants, I suspect there's zero preference given to USUHS grads. In this year's match results, I see a few of my USUHS 02 classmates matching (and unfortunately not matching) to residency programs. I don't know if they voluntarily spent 5 years as a GMO or not, but I haven't ever seen any reason to believe we're given preference as a group.
 
Check out http://www.militarymedicine.com/node/76 for a sample graduate medical education selection board scoring sheet. Note there is no item that would give preference to USUHS grads.

I don't think there is any difference or perception about USUHS grads. Maybe its human nature to think of themselves otherwise but the reality is it is nothing more than a fantasy. As I recall there is a study comparing USUHS to HPSP grads that showed no difference.

My experience is that it is good to have a diverse training program with personnel from a variety of different backgrounds.
 
IgD said:
Check out http://www.militarymedicine.com/node/76 for a sample graduate medical education selection board scoring sheet. Note there is no item that would give preference to USUHS grads.

I don't think there is any difference or perception about USUHS grads. Maybe its human nature to think of themselves otherwise but the reality is it is nothing more than a fantasy. As I recall there is a study comparing USUHS to HPSP grads that showed no difference.

My experience is that it is good to have a diverse training program with personnel from a variety of different backgrounds.
Click to expand...

What about "Potential for successful practice as specialist and career officer". This category can recieve as many as 5 points. This was my reasoning for USUHS students being more successful in the match. It would be my assumption that since a) They have a longer commitment, b) Have been on "Active Duty" for 4 years while in med school, c) Has a greater percentage of academy grads (Another assumption). Because of all these factors, they would be considered to have a greater potential as an officer. Am I wrong in this sense?
 
I've never been to the Joint Medical Graduate Education Selection Board so honestly who knows what is really going on. My take on the "potential for success" part is it is a fudge factor.

If you were representing a program how would you vote? If you had a guy that owes the rest of his life to the military vs. another that was a superstar who would you vote for? The bottom line is the program directors have to pick the applicants they feel would contribute the most to their programs.

I think it must be a very difficult process.
 
pgg said:
It's well documented .....There's also a greater incentive for DO students to take HPSP scholarships, simply because DO schools tend to be more expensive than MD schools. ....In contrast to HPSP, if you look at the numbers released by USUHS in recent years, the quality of entering students has not declined to the same degree..
Click to expand...


As I recall there is a study comparing USUHS to HPSP grads that showed no difference.
Click to expand...

I've never seen any of this stuff. I'm not taking the position that HPSP grads are better than USUHS grads. I'm just suggesting it is possible that they are (likewise it is possible USUHS grads are superior to HPSP grads, on average).

I would be curious to see the documentation mentioned by the above posters as well as anything anyone has on actual difference in match rates between the two. The DO point is a good one, BTW.

My experience with USUHS comes only from my sporadic work with its 3rd and 4th year students, which I have generally been unimpressed with. I have never even been on campus, aside from a wrong turn I made in D.C. once.
 
That must've been a big wrong turn to take you from DC to the USUHS campus. Seriously though, have you found the USUHS students you've worked with to be mediocre?
 
I'd like to think that USUHS grads are just as good as us HPSPers.


After talking to PDs and attendings at the military programs, it sounds like we are on equal playing fields. What matters most is you, the applicant, and how you project yourself. The best advice I got was if you want to match where you want, in the specialty you want, work hard in school - get good scores, good grades, good LORs, perform well on your away rotations (that means 1. don't suck up. 2. be genuinely interested 3. work hard, but don't try to impress). And lastly, in my humble opinion, go to the interviews - a face to face interview will leave more of an impression than a phone call.

This seems to have worked well for me, and I am happy and grateful for my match results. (Don't get me wrong, I was totally freaked out and stressing the night before, so I understand the anxiety...but I got my 1st choice in the end 😀)


Also...the 2 yr GMO tour is not required for those of us that got a transitional year. They will be able to reapply next year. An 'official' email was sent out earlier in the year from the AF that confirmed this. (In other words...it wasn't just some random post that has spread a rumor)
 
I tried searching for the email, but I'm 99% certain that this was confirmed several months ago. PGY1 AF transitionals can reapply next year. 🙂
 
I had posted this information about the ability for AF interns to reapply earlier in this thread and was twice blasted by BomberDoc (thanks for the 'advice'). Its true, and these interns are seemingly eligible for more points in the match's point system based on their performance during intership. I'm still not sold that they aren't often overlooked a second time, but at least that policy of forcing GMO/FS on them only lasted one year...
 
DocWalken said:
That must've been a big wrong turn to take you from DC to the USUHS campus. Seriously though, have you found the USUHS students you've worked with to be mediocre?
Click to expand...

It is obviously hard to quantify this type of thing and of course the difference between the top person in any class and the bottom person in the same class is much greater than the difference between the average USUHS student and the average HPSP student, but it has been my impression that the HPSP students I have worked with are on average stronger than the USUHS students I have worked with, despite some of the HPSP students being DO students. My n is fairly low though, probably 20-30 total.
 
I had posted this information about the ability for AF interns to reapply earlier in this thread and was twice blasted by BomberDoc (thanks for the 'advice'). Its true, and these interns are seemingly eligible for more points in the match's point system
Click to expand...

I tried searching for the email, but I'm 99% certain that this was confirmed several months ago. PGY1 AF transitionals can reapply next year.
Click to expand...

I'm not the expert on this, but I think you guys may be confused. I've never heard of anyone successfully re-applying to residency without at least a year of GMO/FS after transitional internship. Not to say it NEVER happens, but it would be an exceptional case.

My understanding of last year's policy is that unmatched students were required to do two full years of GMO/FS before re-applying instead of just one (intern year+ 2 year GMO vs. intern year + 1year GMO). Plus, I'm not so sure it makes much practical difference, since a lot of GMO tours are going to be two years anyway. Are there a lot of one-year tours out there, or are a lot of places willing to let their people leave a year early? I'm not so sure about that.

The other issue is that if last years class had a mandatory 2-year GMO tour, and this years class only has to do one year, you will have created a "perfect storm" for the match in 2009 with two years worth of returning GMO's competing with students for the same number of slots.

I'd like to spin things more positively, but I just don't see how.
 
mitchconnie said:
I'm not the expert on this, but I think you guys may be confused. I've never heard of anyone successfully re-applying to residency without at least a year of GMO/FS after transitional internship. Not to say it NEVER happens, but it would be an exceptional case. .
Click to expand...

I had a residency mate who was 3 year AF HPSP, initially matched into an IM internship, then subsequently matched into an EM residency with no GMO time.
 
I know of one current SAUSHEC EM1 who did a PGY1 internship last yr at SAUSHEC. There is also an EM1 I met at Wright-Patterson who did the transitional year at Kettering (one of the main affiliated hospitals where the residency offices are located) last yr, and I think there may actually be a 2nd person. When I rotated at both places I was advised that if I didn't get EM I should try to do an internship at either SAUSHEC or Kettering because that is how people get their foot in the door (by rotating in the ED and going to the ED for consults) and usually there is someone in each class who matched that way. Residents at both places advised me to try to avoid a regular civilian internship because my chances of matching for EM at those places without GMO/FS tour in between would be less.
 
Does any one have any experience on PM&R and the AF match, I'm thinking about the AF hpsp and am pretty sure PM&R is the direction I want to go in
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

militaryPHYS
All Branch Topic (ABT) Leapfrog Results
Replies
42
Views
2K
militaryPHYS
militaryPHYS
dscmn
Need some clarification on HPSP
Replies
9
Views
2K
DOswag
DOswag
N
How important is research for the match?
Replies
4
Views
1K
backrow
backrow
U
Air Force ANG vs AF Reserves (IMA?) as an internist?
Replies
0
Views
606
UncreativeGenius
U
S
LOR request for Military Match
Replies
2
Views
1K
SirDeathKnight
S
Top