EPPP Forum

Well, I am glad to oblige in anyway to expand. The forum is mainly used for companies to post about their products but this thread could turn into a discussion about the topic. I know we've contacted a few companies and if anyone has any specific companies or contacts please let me know. We want to expand to give you guys more resources and not all of us are experienced in every area of SDN!

Is it really scary?

I'm so confused about it, though admittedly its way too soon for it to even be on my radar (and passing it isn't even vital for me, though it would sure suck to have all the clinical training go to waste).

I just keep hearing very mixed reviews. Some folks have said its REALLY hard and you have to study for months. I remember someone here mentioned that pretty much everyone at their school did some kind of prep course just to pass it. Then one of the students here told me some folks have more or less winged it (well, minimal review) and done fine, that its basically just Psych GRE round 2, with a clinical focus.

I'll be interested to check out that forum once it gets going, because I want to see what people's experiences with it are like and maybe get a better read on what I should expect from it.
I

No, it's not scary. Though it is a bit annoying.

First, I think it would be difficult to just "wing it," as it is definitely the kind of exam that is written in its own idiosyncratic way. Mostly, you need to learn the proper strategy for answering the questions, and that can be done using any of the test prep materials that are published specifically for the EPPP. The practice exams are priceless - if only because you learn how to navigate the multiple choice options.

Second, the test covers some topic areas that are rarely covered in traditional clinical psychology training programs - most notably I/O and some very outdated models of psychotherapy. I had to cram all of this material that I had never learned. And a rather large chunk of the exam I took had questions about that material.

The good news is that a bit less knowledge is actually an advantage for the EPPP. You just learn the material and spit it back. I found it much harder when there were questions about an area that I was intimately familiar with - and didn't agree with any of the multiple choice options! Similarly, the ethics section can be tricky because most often you would do any number of things when faced with an ethical dilemma - not just one. So you have to learn how the test writers prioritize certain ethical issues, so you know which response is the "best" out of several good responses. Alternatively, sometimes the ethics questions are intentionally written so that you have to choose the best answer out of several poor choices!

Finally, don't underestimate the need to have your licensing credential, even for an academic career. Most clinical programs want to hire someone who can provide some kind of supervision to their graduate students - even if it is simply supervision of assessment for research purposes. You cannot legally supervise a student without being licensed - someone will have to supervise you. In addition, after paying upwards of $700 just to take the test (not including the $500 for the prep materials), most people aren't so cavalier about whether they pass or not!

I looked into this awhile back, and it seems that the challenge is being versed in the variety of topics out there. I/O seems to be a real thorn for some people (on my practice exam I owned those questions .)

Unfortunately I don't believe a great clinician = a high score, but it is a necessary evil. I think the study materials can help people understand what is needed to pass the exam, and what areas they are weak in, regardless of how strong a student they are in actuality. The exam is broken down to cover a certain % of each type of question. For some, there will be sections that are going to be weak but passable.

I took a practice EPPP and did pretty well, though I am still going to study quite a bit for it (when the time comes), because it isn't something to skimp on. I found a number of the questions to be a bit ambiguous (they had 1-2 pharma questions that weren't that accurate, but in that case the less you know, the better shot you'd have at answering the question).

-t

What type of preparation are you putting into the exam? What companies?

I'm wondering if any of you know whether th ATTAB or PsychReview practice tests are actual old EPPP test questions or are they just what the prep companies think the actual ones will be like (ones THEY made up themselves)? The reason I'm asking is b/c I've been looking over old practice exams and the answers are sometimes horrible - as the writer above noted, in his own field, it seems the answers seem wrong often - that's what I found also. I'm wonderiing if the real exam will be less annoying in this regard - without as many poor answers to questions. I understand that often times the best answer is not necessarily the absolute correct one but I've found that sometimes the practice exam answers are very Iffy in terms of one being right over another one. Sometimes you can narrow down to two, and the 'correct' answer isn't any better than the 'incorrect' one. It's very frustrating and seems very irresponsible on the part of the prep agencies (and the EPPP testmakers if they are using these questions) Not to provide better questions/answers.

And to Dr. Snow above, that's great that you crammed and passed in a week but it seems absurd to recommend that to others as there is a massive amount of content material to be covered. I think you need to keep your narcissism in check before you parade your claims (doubtful claim at that) of passing secondary to cramming in one week - it doesn't help anyone.

Peripheral7 said:

I'm wondering if any of you know whether th ATTAB or PsychReview practice tests are actual old EPPP test questions or are they just what they think the actual ones will be like (ones THEY made up themselves)?

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I'm not sure, but I'd love to hear if anyone knows this answer.

Peripheral7 said:

And to Dr. Snow above, that's great that you crammed and passed in a week but it seems absurd to recommend that to others as there is a massive amount of content material to be covered. I think you need to keep your narcissism in check before you parade your claims (doubtful claim at that) of passing secondary to cramming in one week - it doesn't help anyone.

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From what I know about Dr. Snow, he is a bright fellow....so I don't doubt the score, though I think he offers another data point for people out there. I know some who didn't study much and did fine, though I'd strongly suggest that anyone taking the test over-study and not leave it up to chance.

-t

ps. Hola Jon! How's life treating you? I haven't seen you around in awhile.

Just so you know, we did try to get some EPPP participants but no one responded. I'm hoping to have EVERY test on SDN represented by next year!

Peripheral7 said:

And to Dr. Snow above, that's great that you crammed and passed in a week but it seems absurd to recommend that to others as there is a massive amount of content material to be covered. I think you need to keep your narcissism in check before you parade your claims (doubtful claim at that) of passing secondary to cramming in one week - it doesn't help anyone.

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Actually based on what I've heard from several sources, I don't doubt it. Its impressive, certainly, but it didn't strike me as completely outlandish claim. In fact, its in the ballpark of several I've heard before.

I also didn't get the impression he was necessarily recommending that approach, I just asked if people felt the exam was difficult enough to warrant the anxiety that seems to be built up around it, and he gave his opinion. I don't begrudge him that, nor do I think it makes him narcissistic. I certainly don't intend to assume his experiences will be my own, but it isn't any more helpful to hear from people saying "Its the hardest test you'll ever experience" as it is to hear from people like Jon.

Jon Snow said:

I also noticed that taking older practice exams is a bad idea. My scores on those exams got progressively worse the futher back in time I went. As a field, what we know and emphasize has changed over the last ten years. I REALLY disagreed with the older exams.

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As an alternative perspective, I just wanted to emphasize that taking the practice exams was critical for me. But of course, you want to make sure that you have the most updated (or close to it) study materials when doing so.

Primarily, I found that the practice exams were most helpful in terms of reading the corresponding explanations for the correct answers. As I mentioned above, there is some strategy to picking the right answer for certain types of questions that are less content-specific (e.g., brain anatomy) and more process-specific (e.g., ethics). Further, there are certain "correct" answers for EPPP questions that are just, flat out, incorrect (I found this mostly true for questions re: projectives). You just have to suck it up and spit it back, as painful as it may be.

For what it's worth, I am at a highly competitive university hospital, and almost all of my colleagues have complained about doing poorly on the practice exams, yet still did fine on the test. Again, it seems like reading through the explanations after taking the exams was the most valuable study tool. From my experience, I managed to eke by on the practice exams but nonetheless score very highly on the EPPP. Yes, it's not the end of the world if you have to take it again. But at $700 a pop, who wants to do that?

Jon Snow said:

Life is good. It's all hot women, rock and roll, and candy. Well, that and I have to go to work.


You?

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Good to hear! Enjoying some of the hot women, rock and roll, though I'm laying off of the candy....need to look good at the beach and all. I've been doing my internship interviews (flying out tomorrow for another one, and then I have my last one at the end of the month). I love seeing different parts of the country, but it is definitely wearing me out!

73BARMYPgsp said:

Yes, I do. And what the hell is it doing on the EPPP?

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It is a (fun) part of psych!

On my practice exams I did well on I/O, Bio/Nuero/Pharma, etc....but I tripped up on a couple of the research questions, some picky child development stuff, and oddly enough....ethics! In my defense some of them were a "choose the best answer". Eh....I still have time.

-t

thanks for clarifying snow - i know it's not the most difficult test i've ever seen, but it is a big deal for me and many b/c: if you don't pass, you have to go through all the test prep and anxiety that goes with that all over again, have to pay 700 again, and it can prvent a person from getting a licensed position more quickly than otherwise (and pre-licensed clincal positioins that are decent paying and good clincal work are few and far between for nonacademics) .. anyhow, i understand the rationale of downplaying its significance to reduce anxiety... and that some people overstudy..

some questions:
do heterogeneous work groups lead to more productivity (I/O questions)? AATB's practice tests give two contadictory answers on two different exams with this same questions - one says no (just creativity and better decisionmaking) and the other says yes, better producitivity and higher turnover..

another q: do you need to get consent from the parents or attorney of a 17yo therapy patient who is in court and the court subpeonas your records for the patient? the question does not say it's a 'crimnal' court case.

one other: can you give an LCSW raw test data if 'you feel that the SW is qualified to interpret the date and after you make sure the patient has signed a release?' I answered no, but the answer is yes. i thought LCSW's are, by definition, not qualified to review psychology test data.. and i also thought it was our duty as psychologist to protect raw test data from getting into the hands of non-psychologists.. guess i was wrong.. any clarification on this one?

thanx a lot in advance.. i know i'm nitpicking but none of my friends are studying for EPPP right now and i'm not taking a workshop where i could discuss this with others..

I've unfortunatly failed the EPPP for the 2nd time last month. The first time was pretty anxious (not a good m/c test taker) spent 4 months studying completed online exams, you name it.Did everything but the expensive workshop. Second time around partnered with someone studied 2 months straight. Score went up maybe 10 points. So taking a year break and have decided to attend a workshop in hopes it will help with my mild anxiety and maybe teach me something I'm missing about m/c. Would love feedback from others that have taken the workshop, I've heard to stay away form Academic Review workshop, which makes sense because i used their study materials (not impressed) and after comparing them to other materials that someone loaned me I wished I didn't get the AR materials. Advise welcomed. Thanks

I took the EPPP yesterday-I can't imagine that I passed- It was so much more difficult that the practice on-line tests I took with academic review-

Although some of the content was similar- the test questions were worded in these realy ambiguous ways- seriously, there were several times when I could not decipher the questions. Has anyone else found that the Academic Review Materials (particularly the sample exams themselves) don't provide good examples of the types of questions that are on the actually exam (again not so much the content of the questions but the style of them ie really vague and strangely worded)-
Are there folks out there who have been satisfied with Academic Review?
If not what other review packets have people found helpful.-
Thanks
p.s. Does anyone know if certain exams are just more diffcult than other ones
(the actual EPPP, that is)- Are exams scored with respect to how everyone who takes that version performs?
thanks

Planet Jack said:

I took the EPPP yesterday-I can't imagine that I passed- It was so much more difficult that the practice on-line tests I took with academic review-

Although some of the content was similar- the test questions were worded in these realy ambiguous ways- seriously, there were several times when I could not decipher the questions. Has anyone else found that the Academic Review Materials (particularly the sample exams themselves) don't provide good examples of the types of questions that are on the actually exam (again not so much the content of the questions but the style of them ie really vague and strangely worded)-
Are there folks out there who have been satisfied with Academic Review?
If not what other review packets have people found helpful.-
Thanks
p.s. Does anyone know if certain exams are just more diffcult than other ones
(the actual EPPP, that is)- Are exams scored with respect to how everyone who takes that version performs?
thanks

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The EPPP (unlike the CPSE that I recently took and missed the cutoff by ONE point for!) is scored based on norms - that's why they can't tell you if you passed until almost two months later! It is possible for you to have taken a "harder" version of the exam, and they will take that into account. I walked out thinking I had barely passed, and I actually passed with a pretty high score! So have hope.

I too found that the actual questions were worded in ways that would make them almost like "trick" questions. I did better on the "on line" tests through aatbs than I did on the actual test. I took the workshop, but I did not find it really worth the money, except that it did help me to recognize some "trick questions" when they appeared because they had told me about them. I think the workshop may have improved my score by 10 points, which didn't matter in my case, but could really matter when you think you are close.

Even though the prep courses can not use real questions, in my experience, they did a pretty good job of recreating the kinds of choices you would face and educating you on how to not fall for "distractor" answers. Also, people at the workshop that had not passed before shared the questions they remembered.

If you read up on test design for multiple choice tests, you will learn that the choices offered on the "hard" questions are often selected because they pull for common errors in decision making and memory recall. For example, one answer is a "distractor", it could be right, but not in this case (especially true if you are asked for the "best choice"), it confuses people that store information based on content. One answer sounds like the right answer and confuses people that are strong in auditory memory. One answer looks like the right answer and confuses people that store information visually. That is why this test can be so hard to pass...

Because I am poor (mainly due to excessive student loan payments as a result of going to CSPP), I could not afford to take the EPPP again. So I "stored" the information in every way I could... conceptually (linking the info to my real experience), visually (using highlights and flow charts), auditorilly (sp?) (listening to CDs in my car), and using memonic tricks and rote repitition (including flash cards). I studied for 4 months an average of 10 hours a week and then 2 months an average of 20 hours a week. I used a prep course and took EVERY practice exam available (which I found to be the most helpful), and I studied extra for the areas I was weak in (I/O - why is this on a CLINICAL psych test? - and Neuropsychology).

I found that my extra studies in neuropsych and knowledge of testing and statistics paid off more than I would have expected. My supervisor guessed that this is because there is a current push in psychology to make it more like a "hard science". In any case, I would recommend being stronger in those areas that the prep courses suggest.

Most of all... I found out that many people miss the cut off by a few points just because they got anxious and changed their answers. Usually, your first answer is the right choice. You should only change an answer if you remembered something and can clearly defend the change. After my experience with the CPSE, I went home and found out the right answers to the questions I was worried about and discovered that I had made the same error, due to my anxiety, I had changed answers to the wrong choices.

Hope this helps a bit. I know how hard this can be!

Peripheral7 said:

thanks for clarifying snow - i know it's not the most difficult test i've ever seen, but it is a big deal for me and many b/c: if you don't pass, you have to go through all the test prep and anxiety that goes with that all over again, have to pay 700 again, and it can prvent a person from getting a licensed position more quickly than otherwise (and pre-licensed clincal positioins that are decent paying and good clincal work are few and far between for nonacademics) .. anyhow, i understand the rationale of downplaying its significance to reduce anxiety... and that some people overstudy..

some questions:
do heterogeneous work groups lead to more productivity (I/O questions)? AATB's practice tests give two contadictory answers on two different exams with this same questions - one says no (just creativity and better decisionmaking) and the other says yes, better producitivity and higher turnover..

another q: do you need to get consent from the parents or attorney of a 17yo therapy patient who is in court and the court subpeonas your records for the patient? the question does not say it's a 'crimnal' court case.

one other: can you give an LCSW raw test data if 'you feel that the SW is qualified to interpret the date and after you make sure the patient has signed a release?' I answered no, but the answer is yes. i thought LCSW's are, by definition, not qualified to review psychology test data.. and i also thought it was our duty as psychologist to protect raw test data from getting into the hands of non-psychologists.. guess i was wrong.. any clarification on this one?

thanx a lot in advance.. i know i'm nitpicking but none of my friends are studying for EPPP right now and i'm not taking a workshop where i could discuss this with others..

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I'm not sure if this is right (but I still have my study materials from aatbs and could check for you if it's really important), but I think the answers to your questions are:

1) Heterogeneous groups lead to better decision making (more choices) but lower productivity.

2) A "subpeona" is a command to appear. If YOU are given a subpeona, you must appear, but you can refuse to give information or documents if your client does not consent by asserting privilege on their behalf. When the subpeona is for records, I believe you do not have a choice. You must produce the records at court. The most important thing to note is WHO issued the subpeona. If it was the client's atty, you can call them to discuss the issue. If it was the court, you may call the court for help (such as how much info to provide, if a summary would be OK, testing info... or whatever). But, in any case, the parent's permission is NOT required.

3) If the client signed a release, you MUST release the raw data (unless you can show that doing so may harm the client) - but NOT the content of the actual questions (which is protected by copyright laws). Knowing that an LCSW may not know how to interpret the raw data, you would also want to provide a summary of the results and make yourself available for questions. The point here is that your client has the right to share information in your file with anybody they select, even if they are not qualified to interpret it correctly. In real life, you would clarify that raw data would not be useful to a person not trained to administer or score the test and you would offer to provide a summary of the results and a consultation with other professionals.

BTW - I took MANY PAGES of notes at the workshop and would be willing to share them with anybody that would like them. They are all in my script and based on my interpretation of the content, so I don't think it is illegal to share them. Give me a number to fax them to, and I would be happy to help.

Hi,

There is an EPPP Yahoo group that is excellent and very helpful. All you need to do is to search for EPPP group on yahoo and register. Good luck!

Which publisher of study material for the EPPP is better? AATBS or Academic Review?

Some states allow doctoral students to sit the EPPP earlier (i.e. prior to completion of post-doc). The ASPBB gives the example of Kentucky (but then does not list their jurisdiction information).

What other states/jurisdictions allow students to take the EPPP early?

I have a vague memory that Vermont and West Virginia might allow this, as well. Georgia used to, but rumor is that they have changed their policies?

gddr said:

I'm not sure if this is right (but I still have my study materials from aatbs and could check for you if it's really important), but I think the answers to your questions are:

1) Heterogeneous groups lead to better decision making (more choices) but lower productivity.

2) A "subpeona" is a command to appear. If YOU are given a subpeona, you must appear, but you can refuse to give information or documents if your client does not consent by asserting privilege on their behalf. When the subpeona is for records, I believe you do not have a choice. You must produce the records at court. The most important thing to note is WHO issued the subpeona. If it was the client's atty, you can call them to discuss the issue. If it was the court, you may call the court for help (such as how much info to provide, if a summary would be OK, testing info... or whatever). But, in any case, the parent's permission is NOT required.

3) If the client signed a release, you MUST release the raw data (unless you can show that doing so may harm the client) - but NOT the content of the actual questions (which is protected by copyright laws). Knowing that an LCSW may not know how to interpret the raw data, you would also want to provide a summary of the results and make yourself available for questions. The point here is that your client has the right to share information in your file with anybody they select, even if they are not qualified to interpret it correctly. In real life, you would clarify that raw data would not be useful to a person not trained to administer or score the test and you would offer to provide a summary of the results and a consultation with other professionals.

BTW - I took MANY PAGES of notes at the workshop and would be willing to share them with anybody that would like them. They are all in my script and based on my interpretation of the content, so I don't think it is illegal to share them. Give me a number to fax them to, and I would be happy to help.

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as i understand it. a subpeona is a request from a lawyer. you need a court order signed by a judge before you have to surrender any information.

dubiousscruples said:

Some states allow doctoral students to sit the EPPP earlier (i.e. prior to completion of post-doc). The ASPBB gives the example of Kentucky (but then does not list their jurisdiction information).

What other states/jurisdictions allow students to take the EPPP early?

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in alabama, you can get licensed right out of grad school, i believe. they dont have an hours requirement.

i think you can take the test whenever you want actually (please correct me if im wrong) but in most states you cant actually get your license without the hours.

This may be a stupid question... Does the actual score on the EPPP matter or just merely passing the exam?

childpsych479 said:

This may be a stupid question... Does the actual score on the EPPP matter or just merely passing the exam?

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In my state you just need to pass, although there are different pass levels based on masters degree versus doctoral degree (doctoral requires a higher score)

Hi
As I'm sure you all are, I am preparing to take the EPPP but have a very limited income, the life of a post-doc is not glamorous. I am discouraged, disheartened and truthfully distrubed by the assinine cost for study materials. How are we expected to pay for these prices, pay off student loans, and have money to live? I dont believe the prices they charge can be legal. If there are only 3 options for testing materials and you NEED the materials to pass the test isnt that pretty much a monopoly? Is anyone aware of (or willing to start) a class action lawsuit against AATBS, Academic Reivew, and PyschPrep for discrimation against lower SES individuals who cannot afford the study materials? I am beside myself trying to figure out how to get the money to pay for all of this, it is making me want to give up on my dream of becoming a psychologist. I used to believe this was an ethical "helping" field and now I've come to learn that the gate keepers of the profession are pure capatalists who take advanatage of students. There need to be other options or at least financial aid, grants, scholarships etc to help less financially stable indivudals have an equal opportunity for success.

Any information on current or past lawsuits or links to low cost or free practice materials would be greatly appreciated. I dont want to give up after all of the work I have put in but I dont know what else to do.


Cheers
DrNoMoney

Aww...I'm so sorry to hear that.

I know one of my friends who is a post doc was able to get stimulus money which paid for his test.

They don't happen to have these materials online (via Ebay or Amazon)? Also, have you tried contacting any friends that have taken the exam...maybe the could lend you their materials? I'm assuming you already have...

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. How frustrating

Do what I did - borrow someone's old study materials.

Also, the EPPP really isn't all that bad.