UMDNJ-RWJ Curriculum woes.

purpleduck · Feb 2, 2008

Hey there potential first years. I'm a current first year and wanted to alert anyone considering Robert Wood Johnson / RWJ to an unfortunate situation.

Next year, 4 MAJOR faculty members will be retiring/resigning. This will have a HUGE impact on the first year curriculum and will be a serious downer for next year's class. Dr. Zehring runs Biochem and a host of other classes; Dr. Wilson runs Histo, Dr. Newlon runs Genetics, Micro Bio, and Immuno, and Dr. Zachow runs Physio. Basically, this leaves only two big first year courses untouched - Anatomy and Neuroanatomy, both of which are well taught.

Please take this information into consideration in making your decision. I predict that the teaching will be mediocre at best for the first two years. If you have more rwj questions, shoot me a message.

Good Luck everyone!

littlealex · Feb 2, 2008

Is there a reason that prompted all four of them to retire together?

purpleduck · Feb 3, 2008

two are just ready to retire, and two are going to another school.

custard · Feb 3, 2008

Can anyone confirm this?

mlw47 · Feb 3, 2008

Dr. Wilson is not retiring. I asked him after small group the other day.

Newlon meant to retire last year but didn't. And sad to say, Uncle Willy is leaving. I haven't confirmed about Zachow.

Potential first years: don't let this dissuade you. Yes, Zehring is a huge loss and biochem certainly will not be the same. However, no one really goes to Immuno, and Newlon isn't stupendous, so I think the class will be just fine. And Zachow splits his lectures amongst many different lecturers (he's only done 3 so far this year?), and the physio books are great, so I'm not worried about that either.

95% of the learning in the first two years is self directed. There's no substitute for sitting down in front of a book and burying your nose. Good lecturers help, but it's not the end of the world that there's going to be some change.

Additionally, even if Zehring and Zachow and Newlon stayed, the curriculum is changing a lot on its own anyways. As per my conversations with Drs. Terrengino, Saks, and Zackow, in a few years time the amount of lecture will be cut in half -- lectures in the morning and free in the afternoon (or lab).

I'm not worried for the first year class at all. Things are changing, but probably for the better.

-Matt, MS1

Yoyomama88 · Feb 3, 2008

in a few years time? I'm a candidate for next year, and I would love to have less lecture time asap. Do you think that that is unlikely for next year? I certainly don't learn well if theres too much lecture, and not enough time for studying from the book.

custard · Feb 3, 2008

How much lecture time is there right now?

mlw47 · Feb 4, 2008

gopens67 said:
in a few years time? I'm a candidate for next year, and I would love to have less lecture time asap. Do you think that that is unlikely for next year? I certainly don't learn well if theres too much lecture, and not enough time for studying from the book.

Unlikely that things will change much by next year, but there will be some small changes. For instance, anatomy dissections are structured differently now compared to last. Same with neuro lab. If you're waiting for 100% small group sessions and PBL, don't hold your breath. But as an aside, 100% small groups would be awful. Lectures are necessary, sometimes. Second year is packed full of small group sessions, and there's just as much variance in student satisfaction there.

How much class time do we have? A whole bunch.

http://www2.umdnj.edu/rpeduweb/educational_programs/calendar0708/first_year_0708/0708firstyear26.htm

Everyone doesn't go to every class though. Don't be afraid to skip lectures to read notes and books on your own. Certain lecturers you always made sure to attend: like Mulheron (Anatomy), Zehring (Biochem, leaving), a few other CGM and biochem folk. Lecture isn't madatory.

BMBPSU2008 · Feb 4, 2008

Thanks, that is reassuring.

VoiceofReason · Feb 4, 2008

Sorry for you guys who will be across the way from us at NJMS, but the school isn't closing down whole departments or anything I'm sure you'll all still be happy with the quality of instruction. As someone else said the good learning is the self directed stuff anyway 🙂

Lshapley · Feb 4, 2008

mlw47 said:
95% of the learning in the first two years is self directed. There's no substitute for sitting down in front of a book and burying your nose. Good lecturers help, but it's not the end of the world that there's going to be some change.

I'll have to remember to say that at my interviews when the school starts promoting their pre-clinical years 😉

mlw47 · Feb 4, 2008

Lshapley said:
I'll have to remember to say that at my interviews when the school starts promoting their pre-clinical years 😉

It's the dirty little secret of med school curriculae. There is no substitute for logging long hours on your own.

Doctors have to continuously learn and relearn material in their field. Deans have realized this. The only way to develop life-long self-motivated learning skills is by supporting individual work, and learning for its own sake. Consider that with regard to the trends of PBL/small group/less lecture formats (where more of the onus is on the individual to learn), and Pass/Fail systems (where students aren't studying just so they can place higher on a curve, but study hard just for the sake of learning the material).

FYI: 2011 is the first year at RWJ to go completely P/F. With the exception of the first exam in anatomy, the class of 2011 has matched or exceeded 2010's class averages on exams. Moral of the story: as far as we can tell, P/F is way more pro than con. It works.

purpleduck · Feb 5, 2008

Matt has some good points - there is a lot of self-directed learning going on in all medical schools. His optimism is refreshing.

I'm a bit more cynical. A good professor guides you through the self-directed stuff and makes it a lot easier - zehring and newlon especially. It's been my experience that a major changing of the guard is always bumpy, and I anticipate that being true next year, despite the administration being receptive to student's needs.

Basically, I started this post so people will be aware of the situation. while making their decisions. P/F is great, Piscataway/New Brunswick is way nicer than Newark, and in-state tuition is nice. There are plenty of great reasons to come here - but great lecturers is not one of them. How many schools that is actually true for...I don't know.

Good luck, pre-meds! Hope all's well wherever you end up.

mlw47 said:
It's the dirty little secret of med school curriculae. There is no substitute for logging long hours on your own.

Doctors have to continuously learn and relearn material in their field. Deans have realized this. The only way to develop life-long self-motivated learning skills is by supporting individual work, and learning for its own sake. Consider that with regard to the trends of PBL/small group/less lecture formats (where more of the onus is on the individual to learn), and Pass/Fail systems (where students aren't studying just so they can place higher on a curve, but study hard just for the sake of learning the material).

FYI: 2011 is the first year at RWJ to go completely P/F. With the exception of the first exam in anatomy, the class of 2011 has matched or exceeded 2010's class averages on exams. Moral of the story: as far as we can tell, P/F is way more pro than con. It works.

BMBPSU2008 · Feb 5, 2008

But these professors will be replaced right? Who is to say that they will not be replaced with someone of the same, or even higher caliber?

EDIT: I missed your "changing of guard" statements, but it was just alarming to see the school I am going to having its own thread concerning its "curriculum woes"

mlw47 · Feb 6, 2008

BMBPSU2008 said:
But these professors will be replaced right? Who is to say that they will not be replaced with someone of the same, or even higher caliber? [snip] ...it was just alarming to see the school I am going to having its own thread concerning its "curriculum woes".

Absolutely correct. However, prediction is very difficult, especially when it's about the future. (Niels Bohr)

I agree that the title of the post is a bit unnerving, which is why I felt compelled to respond. I met with purpleduck in real life and we talked it out. I think that the intent of the original post was to raise more questions than deliver answers, and to inform you guys of what's happening. Your education's on the line, after all.

purpleduck · Feb 6, 2008

Sorry to unnerve, y'all. Matt's exactly right - I was trying to give you all the info to use to make your decisions about where to go. No one KNOWS what will happen, we can only predict.

In the end, I would still come here next year if I had to decide again.

mlw47 said:
Absolutely correct. However, prediction is very difficult, especially when it's about the future. (Niels Bohr)

I agree that the title of the post is a bit unnerving, which is why I felt compelled to respond. I met with purpleduck in real life and we talked it out. I think that the intent of the original post was to raise more questions than deliver answers, and to inform you guys of what's happening. Your education's on the line, after all.

Sureshot83 · Feb 9, 2008

purpleduck said:
I predict that the teaching will be mediocre at best for the first two years.

How can you say this when all the changes you describe affect first year courses only?

My take on it (3rd year here):

Zachow - he put a lot of effort into organizing the course, but as someone else said, he only gives the renal lectures and maybe 1-2 others. I assume he will leave his organizational structure in place for the next course director.

Zehring - his loss will hurt the biochem course. He was a great course director, who was always involved with the students. He also gave a fair amount of lectures. If he lets the next course director continue to use his lecture notes that he wrote up, things will probably be ok because you can just study the material from them.

Wilson - apparently not leaving anyway so it doesnt matter

Newlon - Similar to Zachow, I thought he did a great job organizing the course. He also did give a lot of lectures. However, in micro/immuno, it's really all about memorizing the notes, and lecture doesnt really help too much with that. As it is, after about the first month or so, attendance at micro lecture probably numbers in the low 20s, so that should tell you how important lecture is.

UMDNJ-RWJ Curriculum woes.

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littlealex

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