Is residency really that bad?

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TheTickets

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I don't post a lot. I try to just keep quiet and absorb everything that is said. But I do have one quick question. I know this topic has been beaten to death but is residency really that bad? Scutwork.com has reviews that don't appear to be all that bad.

Thanks.

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IIRC, scutwork.com hasn't been updated in a while.

Check out some of the more popular threads in this forum and see what residency may entail...alternatively, the Internship forum provides some great reads as well (especially the Call Stories thread).

BTW, it's not going to be a "quick" answer. :) You'll get people saying "yes," "no," and everything in between.
 
Thank you for your help. I appreciate it.
 
I've found that many people who say that residency doesn't suck have either 1) lost perspective or 2) activated a defense mechanism by which they tell themselves that it sucks but it's worth it because, for example, they're learning a lot. Just my opinion.
 
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I've found that many people who say that residency doesn't suck have either 1) lost perspective or 2) activated a defense mechanism by which they tell themselves that it sucks but it's worth it because, for example, they're learning a lot. Just my opinion.

Well, non-malignant programs do exist. Really, they do.

And while medicine is full of disillusioned people who had their idealistic pre-med dreams (chicks, money, power, and chicks) dashed to pieces, some people just love their specialty.

And as a totally separate issue, the top performers in any class tend to be happier, for obvious reasons ... and those kind of people tend to be overrepresented on SDN, where everyone scored 250+ on step 1 and agonizes over which top-tier program to rank first.

So clearly, the solution is to pick a non-malignant program in a specialty you love, and then be stupendously awesome at your job. Then come to SDN and shout down all those whining pansies! :D
 
This is what I have noticed as a 4th year medical student. Your experience may vary.

1. You're going to work harder than all of your non-medical friends by at least 50% and usually more. I like the saying, "most people work a 40 hour week, we call that Wednesday afternoon."

BUT...

2. Except on your very hardest months you will not be sleepwalking. 70 hours a week is not fun but at no point was I feeling like I just could not go on. Maybe others didn't have this experience but after awhile my body adjusts to the early and long hours. It's better than a desk job...
 
I've found that many people who say that residency doesn't suck have either 1) lost perspective or 2) activated a defense mechanism by which they tell themselves that it sucks but it's worth it because, for example, they're learning a lot. Just my opinion.

:laugh: I don't necessarily agree with you 100% but you sure hit a mark! :laugh:
 
I've found that many people who say that residency doesn't suck have either 1) lost perspective or 2) activated a defense mechanism by which they tell themselves that it sucks but it's worth it because, for example, they're learning a lot. Just my opinion.

I don't think I've lost perspective and I'm pretty sure I'm having a pretty good time AND learning a lot. If anything, my attitude towards medicine, patients, etc. is a little worse than when I started out but I'd still say residency isn't that bad and certainly isn't as terrible as all the horror stories I heard as a student and/or pre-med. Just my $0.02
 
I am one of those people who is actually enjoying residency but, true, I am in one of those non-malignant programs. Yes, i agree with the person who said it's crucial to pick wisely. A collegial working and learning environment makes all the difference in the world.

The way I'd say any residency sucks though is the sacrifices it compels one to make--personal life, non-medical interests/goals, and even sometimes family take a backseat to work in a way that nonmedical people sometimes just dont know or understand.

But there is nothing else I can imagine doing with my life!
 
I am one of those people who is actually enjoying residency but, true, I am in one of those non-malignant programs. Yes, i agree with the person who said it's crucial to pick wisely. A collegial working and learning environment makes all the difference in the world.

The way I'd say any residency sucks though is the sacrifices it compels one to make--personal life, non-medical interests/goals, and even sometimes family take a backseat to work in a way that nonmedical people sometimes just dont know or understand.

But there is nothing else I can imagine doing with my life!
Agreed.

I would say that, YES, residency is that bad, everything said here is true and meant in earnest. Residency is terrible, especially if you try to look at it objectively. But it's also full of little triumphs that make you happy that you're doing it, and little reminders that you're right where you should be.

At least that's how I feel about it.
 
Your PGY-1 year will be bad unless you are at an easy program. Some Transitional years have more electives and that helps. It is mostly the months of general ward medicine that is tough with the Q4 call (meaning on call every fourth night) Some have night floats with short call and variations. My PGY-1 was a transitional, so the medicine months were the worst. I had some electives. I also did a month of general surgery with an a**hole who made my life miserable (and I had an ear infection that month that left me with some vertigo). I would shake when I held the damn camera and he would go ballistic! He know I was ill, but instead of having the med student hold the scope, he just wanted to be a jag off.

I was not in medicine originally, so I have something to compare it to. We work VERY hard in medicine. When I was in the business world, I thought I worked hard, but a lot of my day I was standing around drinking coffee, I went to lunch with the boys for 1 - 1.5 hours (we always ate big lunches), talk some more in the AM and the PM. Take a break, and play a little solitaire or Tetris. THose of you that never had another job have no idea how hard we have it in medicine. On the other hand, I worked my way through college by working in a steel factory. Now that was hard physical work, and I would much rather do medicine anyday for various reasons. So yes, residency is hard, but it gets better every year after internship.
 
I've found that many people who say that residency doesn't suck have either 1) lost perspective or 2) activated a defense mechanism by which they tell themselves that it sucks but it's worth it because, for example, they're learning a lot. Just my opinion.
I agree with you somewhat, but what choice do we all have? The only thing you can do is make the best of it, try to find a residency that is a good fit for you in the specialty you desire. Location, and support are also important factors. Those people out there like my idiot sister-in-law that look back and say it was fun though ARE OUT OF THEIR FREAKING MINDS!:laugh:
 
Residency is hard. Some parts totally suck - actually residency sucks more than often than it doesn't. But I have to say that being an attending pretty much rocks. Yes, it's terrifying. What if I f*ck up? But at the same time, I only work 40 hours a week. And I'm doing what I always wanted to do.

So nice.
 
I spent four years in the Marine Corps (airborne training, the whole bit) and would gladly do it again rather than do an internship year again.
 
I spent four years in the Marine Corps (airborne training, the whole bit) and would gladly do it again rather than do an internship year again.

Only 4 years Dejavu? I spent 12 years in the Corps, but I do agree that I'd rather repeat bootcamp than my intern year (actually 14 months as I am in a combined residency). But I do have to say as the time has gone on it does get better. I am nearly done with my 3rd year, looking forward to my 4th and last year as one of the redheaded step-children of the medicine and peds departments. More elective time, less call time. Then there's my real world job that will start July 1, 2009. Show me the money! (Hey, anything more than resident salary is good money!).
 
I don't think I've lost perspective and I'm pretty sure I'm having a pretty good time AND learning a lot.
If you've started to get really excited and grateful about having two days off in a row (and you call it a "golden weekend"... you know, what everybody else just calls "a weekend?") then you've lost perspective.
 
If you've started to get really excited and grateful about having two days off in a row (and you call it a "golden weekend"... you know, what everybody else just calls "a weekend?") then you've lost perspective.

I COMPLETELY agree with this. I am working 18 days in a row this month just so I can have a "golden" weekend. Every other person in my family with jobs requiring less education/investment--3 lawyers, a teacher, an accountant, a engineer, a computer scientist, a couple of federal gov't employees (lord, they NEVER seem to work)--routinely gets every single weekend off. Period. They don't whoop and holler and have to work 18 days in a row to get a simple darned weekend (which will only be the second weekend I have off in a four month period).

I understand that residency is going to be hard but I get frustrated that not only do I work HARDER than everyone else I know with MORE education than everyone else I know yet MORE debt and LESS pay than everyone else I know. If you aren't at least somewhat jaded by that, I think there's something wrong with you.
 
I COMPLETELY agree with this. I am working 18 days in a row this month just so I can have a "golden" weekend. Every other person in my family with jobs requiring less education/investment--3 lawyers, a teacher, an accountant, a engineer, a computer scientist, a couple of federal gov't employees (lord, they NEVER seem to work)--routinely gets every single weekend off. Period. They don't whoop and holler and have to work 18 days in a row to get a simple darned weekend (which will only be the second weekend I have off in a four month period).

I understand that residency is going to be hard but I get frustrated that not only do I work HARDER than everyone else I know with MORE education than everyone else I know yet MORE debt and LESS pay than everyone else I know. If you aren't at least somewhat jaded by that, I think there's something wrong with you.

This is about how I see it. I've done a couple of rotations as a sub-I that I felt were pretty close to what I'm going to be putting up with in residency. Many times I really questioned why I went into medicine in the first place. I think it all comes down to I had no idea what I was getting myself into when I signed up for it. Now that I'm $200K+ in debt I have no choice but to bite the bullet and finish what I started. Am I going to do it for the rest of my life? I don't know. Probably. I mean after going through everything I've already been through and enduring 3 years of torture to finally have a somewhat "normal" well paying job, I'd be an idiot to stop doing it at that point. So, I just hope it turns out to be as "rewarding" as I always thought it would be.
 
If you've started to get really excited and grateful about having two days off in a row (and you call it a "golden weekend"... you know, what everybody else just calls "a weekend?") then you've lost perspective.

Hi, Sac! How's it going? We miss you in the lounge.
 
I hate to hear this. I hope it turns out to be rewarding for everyone. Or at least everyone starts to enjoy his job a little.
 
Are golden weekends that rare?
 
Are golden weekends that rare?

Depends on the program and the residency.

Some have every weekend off (ie, Rad Onc, Derm) and some of us can tell you stories about 4 months without a single day off.

YMMV, but I would venture that one "golden weekend" a month is the norm if you could 1 day in 7 off averaged over the month ----> 1 weekend and 2 other days (usually not together). Check with your future program and see what is the common practice there. It may also depend on the rotation and census.
 
Are golden weekends that rare?

They tend to only occur on months where there's a lot of flexibility in the call schedule (e.g. "I take this weekend, you take next weekend").

I think I average 3-4 golden weekends a year.
 
If you've started to get really excited and grateful about having two days off in a row (and you call it a "golden weekend"... you know, what everybody else just calls "a weekend?") then you've lost perspective.

Agreed. I only get excited when I get four days off in a row...and they better not be weekend days!
 
).

I understand that residency is going to be hard but I get frustrated that not only do I work HARDER than everyone else I know with MORE education than everyone else I know yet MORE debt and LESS pay than everyone else I know. If you aren't at least somewhat jaded by that, I think there's something wrong with you.


...which brings us back to the question, "why do we do it?" at the end of the day, i think it really is for the love of the field...awwww...:laugh:
 
Actually, I can appreciate the people who love their programs and specialties and don't think residency is that bad. I could probably include myself as one, but this is the perspective I'm talking about:

Let's say you make $40K and have a benign program where you work 60 hours a week (figure one call a week on average). Then let's say you get 3 weeks of vacation. That's only $13.60 an hour BEFORE taxes.

Folks, we have doctoral degrees. And I'm not talking about docotral degrees in 19th century French literature. We have doctoral degrees in medicine. If you think making $13.60 an hour as a physician doesn't suck, then you've lost perspective.

BTW, I also agree with the poster who said, "what choice do we have?" You're right; we don't have a choice. We put up with it, but we don't have to pretend like it's some how good for us to be overworked, underappreciated, and - most importantly - underpaid.
 
My naive thoughts as and MS4-


It is such a privilege to practice medicine. I remember when I thought I might never get into medical school. Lots and lots of people who want this opportunity and who would make really good doctors never get it.
I try to remeber that when I'm feeling discouraged or there are "rough" times. I probably can't yet appreciate how rough things will be, but there are definitely some "rough" moments as a medical student. I would take q3 sleepless nights for a while for this privilege. Doesn't that make it all worth it?
 
The world may be changing a bit as well. All my friends in other fields are putting in 60-80 hrs/week to stay globally competitive. They are better compensated, but some have to throw in two flights/week. This has its own ability to take its toll on the body.

We work hard, but others before us have made it through. Our basic needs for food and shelter are met, even certain luxuries. We don't earn less than $1/day, although the way the dollar's value is dropping it won't be long...

Is the grass greener? Depends more on your own mind-body construction, over anything external, to determine that.
 
I'm an intern, so I have a lot of residency left. And I have never deluded myself into thinking being a surgery intern is fun. Its pretty awful. There are some days (the ones that last 16+ hours and are >80% social work-type stuff) that make me wonder why I'm doing this to myself. I also get excited having 2 days off in a row and seeing daylight. And I realize that's not normal, but that's how being an intern is.

But is it as bad as I thought it would be? No. The trick is: talk yourself into believing that it will be awful-awful-awful, and you'll be pleasantly surprised once in awhile. The days I get to operate (not just go and drive camera or retract) make the really bad days not smart so much.
 
If you've started to get really excited and grateful about having two days off in a row (and you call it a "golden weekend"... you know, what everybody else just calls "a weekend?") then you've lost perspective.

Hey!! I resemble that remark!!! ;)

At least here the Golden Weekend only happens during call months. When we are on elective months weekends off are pretty much the norm. But you have to get through 6 months of wards and 3 months of ICU time in the intern year to get there. It was tough, but it's been getting better every year. Next year (my fourth and last year) I only have 4 call months, and lots 'n lots of elective time (what will I do with all that time off?).
 
I also get excited having 2 days off in a row and seeing daylight.

Seeing daylight...I think that can be one of the more depressing things about winter as a resident. You get to work long before the sun comes up and leave long after it has set. And when that happens weeks on end, it's very easy to understand where they came up with the diagnosis of Seasonal Affective Disorder.

The sad part is, I often spend my days off attempting to recoup all my sleep. Because if I start then next week exhausted, it'll be even worse.

I do consider myself lucky that I love what I do. But there are times when I think about having a job where you leave work at work...
 
My naive thoughts as and MS4-


It is such a privilege to practice medicine. I remember when I thought I might never get into medical school. Lots and lots of people who want this opportunity and who would make really good doctors never get it.
I try to remeber that when I'm feeling discouraged or there are "rough" times. I probably can't yet appreciate how rough things will be, but there are definitely some "rough" moments as a medical student. I would take q3 sleepless nights for a while for this privilege. Doesn't that make it all worth it?

I applaud you for your attitude, and please don't take offense at my response, I'm a tired and cranky intern. Let's be honest, your perspective depends very much on where you're standing. You could say that while I'm in the last few "beat-down" months of intern year, I'm mired in a gloomy swamp of exhaustion and cynicism. By comparison, as a post-match fourth year(likely on vacation), you're sitting in a sunny meadow with frolicking maidens throwing petals in the air. It will change.

Also, just a word of warning. While I believe you are sincere in your proclamation that you would take "sleepness Q3 nights" to work in medicine, these are entirely different as an intern compared to a med student, and your opinion might change after a month. In addition, as a psych person, I don't recommend informing any surgery resident he should feel "privilaged" to take q3 call, especially if your own schedule is M-F 9-3 clinic. No offense.

In summary, I do love my job, some days more than others, and I don't really see myself happy doing anything else. I'm fortunate to be at a great program with superb colleagues.

Do I agree that the art and practice of medicine is a privilage not to be taken lightly?
YES.

If you have spouted off this kind of cheery sunshine to me yesterday when I was post-call, would I have considered bi@tch-slapping you?
YES.
 
While I believe you are sincere in your proclamation that you would take "sleepness Q3 nights" to work in medicine, these are entirely different as an intern compared to a med student, and your opinion might change after a month. In addition, as a psych person, I don't recommend informing any surgery resident he should feel "privilaged" to take q3 call, especially if your own schedule is M-F 9-3 clinic. No offense.

Well said!
 
Well said!




:(

Didn't I say I was a 4th year and naive? Duh. Y'all are party poopers. Obviously, you all would take q3 sleepless nights for the privilege too because you haven't quit.

You could let me hang out in my land of gumdrops, sunshine and rainbows for the next three months, couldn't you? No offense, but there's no need to displace your frustration on a happy little 4th year. No bitchslapping necessary :mad:. Easy for a psych person to say....blah blah blah. Suck it up, surgeons!!


Please don't reply with anything mean :D I'm really harmless and sympathize with your exhaustion. I couldn't be a surgery resident.......but then I also know enough not to sign up for it ;)
 
Nah, we're just all tired and grizzled. :)

We take the beatdowns/abuse because we love what we do, and also because we're too far in (debt, time investment, etc.) to do anything else.
 
Nah, we're just all tired and grizzled. :)

We take the beatdowns/abuse because we love what we do, and also because we're too far in (debt, time investment, etc.) to do anything else.


Well said!
 
Its a red herring to say people continue to do q3 call because of the privilege or because they love what they are doing.

People have all sorts of motivations, for some its a means to an end, for others, many of us who considered quitting, the looming debt and no other way to pay it off means you kee going regardless of how miserable you are.

Do not assume people continue in medicine because they love it, but consider that some do because they feel trapped.
 
WHAT ABOUT VACATION?!??!?!?!???!?!?!??

(that's what I plan on living for.:D)
 
That's only $13.60 an hour BEFORE taxes.

$13.60 AN HOUR??!?? Whooo hoo!!!! I can't WAIT!!!

(beats paying money to be there).
 
$13.60 AN HOUR??!?? Whooo hoo!!!! I can't WAIT!!!

(beats paying money to be there).

It sounds good, in theory, except now you always have the cloud of loan repayments hanging over you (don't forget to file deferment/forbearance paperwork every year!) plus you'll likely have less money coming in than you did when you lived off loans.
 
It sounds good, in theory, except now you always have the cloud of loan repayments hanging over you (don't forget to file deferment/forbearance paperwork every year!) plus you'll likely have less money coming in than you did when you lived off loans.

I'm planning on living at the hospital and taking my showers at the Y.
 
I'm planning on living at the hospital and taking my showers at the Y.


Sounds like a well-deserved lifestyle after studying you a$$ off for four years...
 
I'm planning on living at the hospital and taking my showers at the Y.

I hear ya. My family is staying here next year so my son can finish his senior year of high school while I do my intern year. My budget is $800/month so I can send the rest home. I am so damn excited, kill me now.
 
They tend to only occur on months where there's a lot of flexibility in the call schedule (e.g. "I take this weekend, you take next weekend").

I think I average 3-4 golden weekends a year.

:eek:
 
I hear ya. My family is staying here next year so my son can finish his senior year of high school while I do my intern year. My budget is $800/month so I can send the rest home. I am so damn excited, kill me now.

:laugh:

For those of you going through this, I feel for you. I harbor none of the usual idealistic premed garbage. I fully expect medical training to blow the world's largest, most hairiest testicles biologically possible far too often than I'd hope.

As for comments like the afore... uh, quoted, I often wonder what will be said post-residency, and whether it will ultimately be worth it.
 
My naive thoughts as and MS4-


It is such a privilege to practice medicine. I remember when I thought I might never get into medical school. Lots and lots of people who want this opportunity and who would make really good doctors never get it.
I try to remeber that when I'm feeling discouraged or there are "rough" times. I probably can't yet appreciate how rough things will be, but there are definitely some "rough" moments as a medical student. I would take q3 sleepless nights for a while for this privilege. Doesn't that make it all worth it?

It's so not worth it except for the money and the prestige. You know, I just got off of two weeks of vacation (went on my first job interview, it was great, I can see the light at the end of this horrible tunnel) and I realized that it is a lot more fun to pretend to be a doctor than to really be one.

It's sort of like when I was a Marine. I enjoyed being a Marine on liberty a lot more than I did sweating under ninety pounds of machine gun, body armor, and ammunition.
 
Do not assume people continue in medicine because they love it, but consider that some do because they feel trapped.
Oh me me me. (raising hand)

Do you want to post that as a poll for everyone PGY2 and up (Why do you stay in medicine? A you feel trapped, B any other reason) or do you think it would scare everyone too much?:D
 
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