Do young med students accept the older non-traditional students?

take the shot said:

I am in my 40s and am have spent a lifetime dreaming about being a doctor. I am finally ready to apply this fall. I have been sittng next to mostly young, traditional pre-meds for the past year as I finished my pre-reqs. Although most people tell me I look like I am in my 30s, I am clearly still older than the average pre-med and wondered what these younger students thought of seeing an older person in the mix. For all of you older students already in med school and residency: have you been readily accepted by the younger students? Ever deal with any snide comments about taking up a med school seat?

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So I know you're looking for a response from an older student, but I can give you a perspective from a younger student. I found my older classmates to be some of the most interesting, and fun to work with- especially during clinical years. They had a real passion for medicine and brought a lot to the table with their past experiences. Anyone worth working with should realize this. Nonetheless I'm sure there are sometimes snide comments floating around

I'm just finishing up MS2, and have had a wonderful experience so far. My fellow students have all been very accepting as far as I know. What they may think vs. how they act around the non-trads in the class could be different, but I don't think so.

I have found many to be interested in what I did as a career before med school, and have answered alot of questions in that regard. Also, it seems another cross section are very interested in my children and how I balance family and school.

I feel very lucky to have been thrown into the fray with such a great group of people. In many ways it has restored my faith in the younger generation.


Of course, YMMV.

racerx said:

I'm just finishing up MS2, and have had a wonderful experience so far. My fellow students have all been very accepting as far as I know. What they may think vs. how they act around the non-trads in the class could be different, but I don't think so.

I have found many to be interested in what I did as a career before med school, and have answered alot of questions in that regard. Also, it seems another cross section are very interested in my children and how I balance family and school.

I feel very lucky to have been thrown into the fray with such a great group of people. In many ways it has restored my faith in the younger generation.


Of course, YMMV.

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Ditto

take the shot said:

I am in my 40s and am have spent a lifetime dreaming about being a doctor. I am finally ready to apply this fall. I have been sittng next to mostly young, traditional pre-meds for the past year as I finished my pre-reqs. Although most people tell me I look like I am in my 30s, I am clearly still older than the average pre-med and wondered what these younger students thought of seeing an older person in the mix. For all of you older students already in med school and residency: have you been readily accepted by the younger students? Ever deal with any snide comments about taking up a med school seat?

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Yes to the first question, no to the second. My trad classmates on the whole seem to enjoy us nontrads. There is plenty of good-natured teasing, but not any outright hostility. Who else but me could they mock for not knowing about Facebook? And, when one prof mentioned in a lecture about how none of us remembered Jesse Helms, there I was to pipe up about how I remember him while the young'uns were googling to find out who the heck he was.

Of all the concerns to have before starting med school, this is one that I'd rank pretty low on my list....like, off the bottom. Best of luck to you.

the question is, do we accept them?

i'm not much older than most of the straight-from-undergrad kids (4 years or so) but i certainly feel the difference in maturity.

the great thing is that most of the medical students i've met are significantly more mature. must be something about those first two years that forces people to grow up... at least i hope so.

nu2004 said:

the question is, do we accept them?

i'm not much older than most of the straight-from-undergrad kids (4 years or so) but i certainly feel the difference in maturity.

the great thing is that most of the medical students i've met are significantly more mature. must be something about those first two years that forces people to grow up... at least i hope so.

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No kidding nu! Personally, and I know this sounds old and crotchety, but the younguns who were taking 2 or 3 classes, being supported by their parents, and bitching about the workload because it cramped their dating/drinking/sleeping style drove me batty in my post-bacc. I am guessing/hoping it will not seem like such a gulf in med school.

breeak said:

No kidding nu! Personally, and I know this sounds old and crotchety, but the younguns who were taking 2 or 3 classes, being supported by their parents, and bitching about the workload because it cramped their dating/drinking/sleeping style drove me batty in my post-bacc. I am guessing/hoping it will not seem like such a gulf in med school.

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Oh, everyone will b**** about the workload in medical school, from the youngest person in the class to the oldest. But it's actually worth b****ing about.

QofQuimica said:

Oh, everyone will b**** about the workload in medical school, from the youngest person in the class to the oldest. But it's actually worth b****ing about.

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Exactly, we'll ALL be entitled.

Ha, I am totally old and crotchety. Where's my g-damn cane?! GET OFF MY LAWN!

breeak said:

Ha, I am totally old and crotchety. Where's my g-damn cane?! GET OFF MY LAWN!

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You sound like DrMidlife! [I say that with utmost respect, DrMidlife ]

breeak said:

the younguns who were taking 2 or 3 classes, being supported by their parents, and bitching about the workload because it cramped their dating/drinking/sleeping style drove me batty in my post-bacc.

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same in my program. although i am not a sadist in any form, i do find it telling that these same kids did not get in this cycle...

I am one of those young, straight out of undergrad types you're worried about. For me, with the non-trads in my class (about done with 3rd year now), it's just the same as it is with anyone else - the people who join us on occasion when we go out, who are friendly in the hallways, and actually make an effort are the people I enjoy seeing on a regular basis. Those who don't - whether they're my age or 45 - I'm pretty ambivalent about. Perhaps I'm biased (my mom went back to law school at age 40), but I don't see any reason why it should really matter.

In looking at the non-trad students in the classes above and below mine (several of whom are extremely disliked), the key is - just be normal, don't rock the boat, and try to blend in. There's one non-trad in the class behind me who apparently feels the need to ask at least 2 questions within each hour-long lecture. Apparently he got the hint at some point during second year, but I have several friends who said within about 2 months of first year, there were a group of students who made extremely audible groans every time he raised his hand. But I doubt this had much to do with his age, and everything to do with his behavior.


That said, I did have an ex-girlfriend who went to the other medical school in my city, who was very...anti-non-trad student, to put it lightly. She was pretty snobbish in a lot of other ways too, so it seems it was more her personality type than anything that non-trad students had done to her. She had issues with the fact that a non-trad would be older than the residents and that would confuse the patients, but could never ever explain why that was actually a problem (there were a lot of things she irrationally disliked, but always failed to come up with a reason for her dislike).

take the shot said:

I am in my 40s and am have spent a lifetime dreaming about being a doctor. I am finally ready to apply this fall. I have been sittng next to mostly young, traditional pre-meds for the past year as I finished my pre-reqs. Although most people tell me I look like I am in my 30s, I am clearly still older than the average pre-med and wondered what these younger students thought of seeing an older person in the mix. For all of you older students already in med school and residency: have you been readily accepted by the younger students? Ever deal with any snide comments about taking up a med school seat?

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There are two kinds of nontrads out there. The ones who seem old and seem to relate more with the profs and attendings than their classmates, and the ones who are able to make themselves true peers to the young-uns, and walk the walk and talk the talk. The latter get accepted by their classmates, the former have a harder time being accepted. You will have traditional classmates with spouses, kids, homes, and really shouldn't have a problem being on their wavelength if you try. Some nontrads do, some don't. But it will be up to you whether you show up for the happy hours or tag along at lunch etc. Most trads are pretty accepting of folks they perceive at their level, but not those who treat them as a kid.

I've had a lot of non-trads in my classes. A lot of them have been pretty great people. Their maturity and life experience really lends a certain perspective.

nu2004 said:

the question is, do we accept them?

i'm not much older than most of the straight-from-undergrad kids (4 years or so) but i certainly feel the difference in maturity.

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I am not in your "we." If you like the nontrad forum, that's fine, but for you to identify as a nontrad at the age of 25 makes no sense whatsoever to me. Sorry.

DrMidlife said:

I am not in your "we." If you like the nontrad forum, that's fine, but for you to identify as a nontrad at the age of 25 makes no sense whatsoever to me. Sorry.

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do you consider graduating from college with a non-science major and no science classes, running one's own business for four years, and then taking a post-bacc while surviving cancer a "traditional" route to medical school?

i'm a "younger" non-trad just as there are "older" non-trads. i try to help out a lot around the non-trad forum and i'd appreciate if you kept your ageism private.

Law2Doc said:

There are two kinds of nontrads out there. The ones who seem old and seem to relate more with the profs and attendings than their classmates, and the ones who are able to make themselves true peers to the young-uns, and walk the walk and talk the talk. The latter get accepted by their classmates, the former have a harder time being accepted. You will have traditional classmates with spouses, kids, homes, and really shouldn't have a problem being on their wavelength if you try. Some nontrads do, some don't. But it will be up to you whether you show up for the happy hours or tag along at lunch etc. Most trads are pretty accepting of folks they perceive at their level, but not those who treat them as a kid.

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I partly agree and partly disagree with this. It's true that if someone acts like they're superior to trads just because they're a decade (or two!) older than the trads are, that will not endear that person to anyone. Of course, that would be true no matter what age one is, but it's a special kind of insufferable when people look down on others based merely on age. I also agree that it's a good idea to attend social events at least once in a while to get to know your fellow students in a non-school setting. Again, this is true no matter what age one is.

On the other hand, I don't agree with the apparent implication that "cool" nontrads are just trads trapped in an older body. There is no need to "walk the walk" and "talk the talk" as if one were 22 years old. When people my age (mid-thirties) go to keg parties and get drunk, they come across as pathetic, not like they're "fitting in." It is not necessary for nontrads to act like adolescents ourselves in order to be respected and liked by them, and making fools of ourselves will do nothing to increase our popularity with people of any age. The key is to show interest in other people, and to treat them with the same respect that we would like to receive ourselves, regardless of their age....or ours.

nu2004 said:

do you consider graduating from college with a non-science major and no science classes, running one's own business for four years, and then taking a post-bacc while surviving cancer a "traditional" route to medical school?

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Actually, yes. I think you're confusing "nontrad" with "unique." I'm very sorry to hear about you having cancer. Congratulations on your brief exposure to the business world. I think you're a GREAT candidate for med school. But are you thinking you're substantially different from the vast dominating numbers of outstanding 21yo to 25yo applicants? Have you seen how many under-25ers are doing postbacs, because they didn't do the prereqs first time around? Have you seen how many applicants posted in the "any other applicants with cancer" thread in pre-allo? I don't mean to belittle you. Quite simply I don't see what you're bringing to this forum that a strong 21yo applicant doesn't bring. I'm sure folks appreciate your supportive comments, and your understanding of the process. But for you to vote in on how you feel as an "older applicant" is inane.

Which part of your experience gives you common ground with the career changers, moms coming off the mommy track, military folks coming home, parents of teenagers, etc. who come to this forum looking for a reason to feel LESS unique? Who come here looking for others who have been through the experience of breaking away from a mortgage and a 401k and a stable, established life to pursue a goal that's so much more reasonable for a younger applicant, such as yourself? What are you LOSING by going to med school?

nu2004 said:

i'm a "younger" non-trad just as there are "older" non-trads. i try to help out a lot around the non-trad forum and i'd appreciate if you kept your ageism private.

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Ageism? Are you seriously going there? What adcom is going to discriminate against you because of your age?

DrMidlife said:

Actually, yes. I think you're confusing "nontrad" with "unique."

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Then you don't understand what constitutes a "traditional" path to medical school.

DrMidlife said:

Congratulations on your brief exposure to the business world.

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You have absolutely no idea, and it's extremely insulting for you to talk down to me like this. I put myself through college by working, ate nothing but broccoli, chicken and rice for two years, and as a result of my industriousness I can write a check to pay for medical school several times over.

DrMidlife said:

I think you're a GREAT candidate for med school.

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So did the schools that offered me interviews. Is being patronizing some way of masking your own bitterness?

DrMidlife said:

Which part of your experience gives you common ground with the career changers

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Oh, i don't know... maybe changing careers?

DrMidlife said:

others who have been through the experience of breaking away from a mortgage and a 401k and a stable, established life to pursue a goal that's so much more reasonable for a younger applicant, such as yourself? What are you LOSING by going to med school?

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I don't understand what a mortgage or a 401k have to do with anything. I have a mortgage. Soon I'll have two because the housing market in Chicago is terrible. There's a sacrifice. I had various IRAs and investment vehicles as a business owner that would have continued to do well if I had stayed in that line of work. I had a stable (growing) income and an established client base that was loyal. I left it all behind because I didn't want to run around in circles my whole life simply to make money.

What am I LOSING by going to medical school? I don't look at it that way. I am sacrificing the opportunity to make more money for the opportunity to actually do something that will benefit humanity in an immediate and tangible way.

You'd better lose this "you must be at least this tall to ride this ride" mindset before you actually start medical school. The overwhelming majority of your classmates will be under 30, and some of them will be nontraditional. When you start brushing off their hard work and outside-of-medicine experiences, don't wonder why they dislike you.

Folks, please keep this thread civil and on track. Everyone is welcome to post their opinions in this forum, including trads as well as nontrads of all ages. I think most people will find that as medical students, we have more in common with our classmates of all ages than we do differences due to our ages and previous backgrounds.

i agree that age discrimination is bad.

-doogi howser

QofQuimica said:

Folks, please keep this thread civil and on track. Everyone is welcome to post their opinions in this forum, including trads as well as nontrads of all ages. I think most people will find that as medical students, we have more in common with our classmates of all ages than we do differences due to our ages and previous backgrounds.

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i think you already said it best in your previous post:

QofQuimica said:

it's a special kind of insufferable when people look down on others based merely on age.

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QofQuimica said:

On the other hand, I don't agree with the apparent implication that "cool" nontrads are just trads trapped in an older body. There is no need to "walk the walk" and "talk the talk" as if one were 22 years old. When people my age (mid-thirties) go to keg parties and get drunk, they come across as pathetic, not like they're "fitting in." It is not necessary for nontrads to act like adolescents ourselves in order to be respected and liked by them, and making fools of ourselves will do nothing to increase our popularity with people of any age. The key is to show interest in other people, and to treat them with the same respect that we would like to receive ourselves, regardless of their age....or ours.

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Yeah I wasn't talking about keggers and acting like adolescents when I said walk the walk and talk the talk. I just meant if a crowd of folks is going off to grab lunch after class, or BS-ing about med school life in the student lounge, there is the type of nontrad who will make themselves a part of that scene and a type of nontrad who wouldn't.

Don't let drmidlife get to you, my observations of her posts are that she's either very insightful/well informed, or sometimes off topic (and not as polite as some might prefer--no offense). Honestly no one here has the right to say what is or isn't non traditional. Although she did say "to me" it seemed "to me" that she was trying to tell you that you shouldn't identify as a non trad. I'm 29, and at 25, 26, 27, 28 and now I'll be "darned" if someone tries to discount my experiences (at any age) because I don't conform to their preconceived notion of nontraditional.

Thanks QofQ, the point of the OPs question was lost somewhere back. I'm starting med school this year, and while part of me does wonder if the differences in ages will result in a palpable difference, I'm resigned to the notion that my classmates will hopefully like the me I am . In taking UG classes over the past years I notice the differences, but not so much that it made the experience bad. When I look at the FB group for my class, almost everyone graduated in 06/07/08. While I am glad I didn't take the traditional route, to be 25/26 going into school would have been ideal (for me). I accept that either way this is "my time" to go to school, and hopefully I can learn as much from my classmates as they can learn from me. I'm just looking forward to it in general. Most nontrads haven't let other "obstacles" stop them to this point, what's one more? Just be yourself and I'm sure everything else will work itself out G'luck with the application process! (ps, get your app in this summer not the fall to give yourself the best chance).

BigRedBeta said:

In looking at the non-trad students in the classes above and below mine (several of whom are extremely disliked), the key is - just be normal, don't rock the boat, and try to blend in. There's one non-trad in the class behind me who apparently feels the need to ask at least 2 questions within each hour-long lecture. Apparently he got the hint at some point during second year, but I have several friends who said within about 2 months of first year, there were a group of students who made extremely audible groans every time he raised his hand. But I doubt this had much to do with his age, and everything to do with his behavior.

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I hope this doesn't come across as patronizing, but seriously, if someone is not past the point of needing to "blend in", "be normal", or trying to not rock the boat, they would not being leaving a career and/or juggling their family in order to go to medical school at age 30 (or whatever, I'm not diving into the debate on what constitutes "non-trad"... ). A major part of my maturation process was realizing that being yourself gives you the freedom to follow your dreams, find people who truly love and support you, and allows you to give that support back.

Also I've been in large lecture classes with people who asked questions...sometimes seemingly inane ones, but the fact that they did it shows a kind of dedication to learning and success, and courage, that dwarfs anyone sitting in a clique groaning at them. I didn't feel like it made much of a difference to my learning process - live and let live.

And now to wrap up my lovely Saturday night of studying cardiogenesis with a nice stiff drink. Latahs...

breeak said:

I hope this doesn't come across as patronizing, but seriously, if someone is not past the point of needing to "blend in", "be normal", or trying to not rock the boat, they would not being leaving a career and/or juggling their family in order to go to medical school at age 30 (or whatever, I'm not diving into the debate on what constitutes "non-trad"... ). A major part of my maturation process was realizing that being yourself gives you the freedom to follow your dreams, find people who truly love and support you, and allows you to give that support back.

Also I've been in large lecture classes with people who asked questions...sometimes seemingly inane ones, but the fact that they did it shows a kind of dedication to learning and success, and courage, that dwarfs anyone sitting in a clique groaning at them. I didn't feel like it made much of a difference to my learning process - live and let live.

And now to wrap up my lovely Saturday night of studying cardiogenesis with a nice stiff drink. Latahs...

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Hi breeak,

I've been a 31 y.o. in a master's which shares the classroom with a med class, and so surrounded by the med school/youth culture like this. i hate it. i came from an area of life that was about being real, being political, being a bit of both, and i can't stand this kind of cliquey atmosphere. by cliquey, i mean that people find it acceptable to groan, or whisper behind backs, or no-one ask any questions or talk about school, cause that's uncool.

i've started to find others who are earnest and not smiley-happy-shiny-fake, but that's been mostly outside of the school context. i'm not describing this in a fair way, and kudos to q for describing a way to meet and be interested in others. i have just not found a way to meet others, i've felt pressured to be a particular way. and i do feel that age should beget a bit of respect. just as those who are older than me i give respect. then again, we are in a culture in north america that is biased against respecting elders. i'm aware that i'm polarizing, and i'm blowing off a bit of steam, this is a rant.

Edit: And Another Thing! I think my perspective may just be because it's hard to find folks who are a little different when difference is so derided. So if I had been in the main class maybe i'd find others a little easier. and then in the smp it's so small that there just aren't the odds.

so at first i was upset that i wasn't finding good friends in the school context. and i tried. i'm glad of that experience though, so that when i enter med this year, i'm not out there really working to make connections. i might be able to just hang back and see what kind of acquaintances develop, and look to find friends outside of school.

but i really don't like this era of not paying attention in class, discouraging questions, and being more about grades than intellectual inquiry. i really do believe that's an age shift. when i first went to university, it was not like that, not that i remember.

breeak said:

Also I've been in large lecture classes with people who asked questions...sometimes seemingly inane ones, but the fact that they did it shows a kind of dedication to learning and success, and courage, that dwarfs anyone sitting in a clique groaning at them. I didn't feel like it made much of a difference to my learning process - live and let live.

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You may feel differently in med school where time is a valuable commodity, and this person's repeated inane questions cut into your study/sleep time or eliminates your brief chance to drop off a form or run to the bathroom before the next lecture, etc. A good question now and then is fine and helpful. Daily questions one could easily look up or quietly ask the prof after class are what breeds hostility. If you want to fit in, you try to reign in any tendency to repeatedly ask the latter. I must say, though, that as many trads as nontrads violate these tenets - I don't see this as a primarilly nontrad foible.

Law2Doc said:

I must say, though, that as many trads as nontrads violate these tenets - I don't see this as a primarilly nontrad foible.

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Agree.

I have to say that the questions in class didn't really bother me. They took the chains off our seats a few years ago, so as one prof cleverly said: if we students finished our job (listening) before he finished his job (lecturing), we should feel free to leave. When the period was over and I had things to do, I left. The worst thing IMO is if the faculty decides that some people in your class are being "unprofessional" and that the whole class needs to get a chastizing email, or worse, a meeting, about it. My goal has been to spend as little time discussing professionalism as possible, particularly my own.

I'm about the oldest in my class and haven't felt any negativity at all. I like to stay below the radar for the most part - but that's just my style. I'm also somewhat immature and single so I tend to fit in with the younger crowd

However, I know from my friends "in the know" that people are constantly talking trash about each other to some degree. It's not really serious and I wouldn't worry about it, it comes with the territory, and the stress of school, and seeing the same faces every day.

It is mostly about the annoying people who ask lots of dumb questions, or the people who are really negative all the time, or the MD-PhD folks who seem to know everything, or the political types (the worst). If you are easy going and take school in stride no one will have anything to say. If you constantly complain about how bad the USA is and how our health care system sucks then you are someone who will be fodder for the rest of us.

I took the approach of laying low early in the year and then started hanging out every so often as the year went on. I don't think hitting every party/bar at the start of the year would have been a good way to get to know people. You will gravitate towards the people you will want to hang or study with.

One thing that worked for me is to rotate where I sit in lecture. Most people sit in the exact same seats every day. Seems silly but if you move around a little bit you will get to know more people.

remo,

you've just said that you consider the political folks 'the worst'. i really don't like the 'apolitical' stance of the majority in med school. because that stance is political, it's just the dominant politics. and many tactics are used to quiet any kind of conversation around stuff. whether a different generation would call it 'impolite' or today it would be called 'uncool' and the majority ostracizes those who care deeply and vocalize about issues of injustice. that silencing is wrong. it's wrong, and hurtful, and just maintains power and privilege and a disdain and an ignorance for those who know suffering due to economics, justice and whathaveyou. med school is a privileged position and the shunning shows it.

that's what i'm talking about. i come from a social justice background, the reason that things change in this world. the reason that women are more than 5% of each med class. and i don't appreciate the ostracism for wanting to talk about justice. after all, to me that is part of healthcare - it's part of ensuring that people are healthy and not sickened due to poverty, hurfullness, shunning and ignorance. i don't like that these things are considered 'not medicine' and 'distasteful' and 'uncool'. that's just a privileged position.

and i like what q quoted from her prof - that if the job of listening is done, then just leave! just as bad as vocalized questions is all the back-talk and background inattention on internet etc that makes the class not focused on the topic. when folks are i.m.ing etc you may think it doesn't disturb, but it does... it means that the group's focus is destroyed, even if that translates to the attitude that the group activity of lecture is unimportant and therefore disdainful.

i get that med is stressful, i've experienced this during the s.m.p. this year. but i think that these kinds of attitudes make it a lot worse than it could be. there's no enthusiasm (albeit stress) for the actual enterprise of medical knowledge. no joy of learning. that seeps through into the culture of the experience. and i think this may be a generational shift regarding education in general. i remember 'the good old days', i guess, where people were passionately engaged in the material at hand. willing to discuss it, even, over a beer, when the nerves weren't too jangled close to exams.

remo said:

However, I know from my friends "in the know" that people are constantly talking trash about each other to some degree. It's not really serious and I wouldn't worry about it, it comes with the territory, and the stress of school, and seeing the same faces every day.

It is mostly about the annoying people who ask lots of dumb questions, or the people who are really negative all the time, or the MD-PhD folks who seem to know everything, or the political types (the worst).

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All trad med students likely have these trash-talking discussions to some degree. We did so in law school which was the same kind of fishbowl. If you are always asking questions you probably become the topic of some lunch discussion recapping the morning class. In law school we took it a step further, and played "A$$hole Bingo", where we had cards made up with the more abrasive and notoriously annoying of our classmates, and marked a box for each question or response from such people. If you got Bingo, you had to find a way to participate to let the rest of the players know you had won. (Usually working a code word into your question). The prize was usually a pizza or a six pack. Very juvenile, but funny in a way. Any way, I'm sure med students regard their noisy peers the same way, so rather than fitting in, you can end up being center square in someone's bingo board if you are too aggressive.

Oh, the irony of being too old to fit in with the traditional medical students, but too young to fit in with the nontrads! Tough break, Nu! ;-)

It seems really unfortunate that there are nontrads out there who don't appreciate what the younger medical students bring to the table. Everyone in my class, regardless of age, have taught me a lot; about medicine, careers, family, relationships, travel, politics, and life in general. The only thing that will keep an "older" nontrad from fitting in is an attitude towards his or her peers that says, "I have nothing to learn from you".

I am not sure if Dr. Midlife would accept me as part of the "older" nontrad club or not, but for myself, fitting in with the younger crowd has been a non-issue. The worst I get is the occasional teasing about my age (and only because they know it doesn't offend me), which I respond to with jibes about whether they have their drivers' license, or if they're old enough to vote yet.

4paw said:

that's what i'm talking about. i come from a social justice background, the reason that things change in this world. the reason that women are more than 5% of each med class. and i don't appreciate the ostracism for wanting to talk about justice. after all, to me that is part of healthcare - it's part of ensuring that people are healthy and not sickened due to poverty, hurfullness, shunning and ignorance. i don't like that these things are considered 'not medicine' and 'distasteful' and 'uncool'. that's just a privileged position.

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i respect this position, but if you tried to bring it up during a lecture hour in which the discussion was how the body metabolizes glucose, i would groan audibly

i was a political science major as an undergrad and i do find these topics interesting, but i would probably shy away from discussing them from someone with strong views. why? i don't really have any desire to disagree IRL (in real life) until i'm in a position to change things. as a medical student, my MO is study, learn the material, and become a respected and influential physician so that i can have some sway in said debate.

nu2004 said:

i respect this position, but if you tried to bring it up during a lecture hour in which the discussion was how the body metabolizes glucose, i would groan audibly

i was a political science major as an undergrad and i do find these topics interesting, but i would probably shy away from discussing them from someone with strong views. why? i don't really have any desire to disagree IRL (in real life) until i'm in a position to change things. as a medical student, my MO is study, learn the material, and become a respected and influential physician so that i can have some sway in said debate.

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Hi nu -

good point you're making. i would tend to agree that the way the whole thing is set up means that it's not on-topic in a typical class, and the speed of things means everything must be on-topic.

what i'm saying though is that the classes where this is meant to come up are insulted twice. once for being the 'token' classes on these issues, and twice for being insulted by the majority of the students, but then students are likely just taking the cue from the fact that these topics are obvious add-ons, and so not truly embraced from the top down.

also, when it comes to any chit-chat outside of class.... well, actually, in terms of that, i have had great political chit-chat across the broad spectrum this year. but what i don't like is so many people from privileged locations all in one place, since it makes for not a lot of progressive politics around the place. o.k. that's political differences, but when in debate at least there's debate.

the other politics i don't like is just the politics that comes out in everyday views - like that it's o.k. to somehow throw in sexist jokes in particular. and upon close inspection a lot of worldviews seem to come together - in terms of what i have been describing as 'youth culture' when it comes to an approach to intellectual community, and also a worldview that does not think much or care much about classism, sexism, etc, and therefore perpetuates all of this.

for a long time, i was surrounded by community like in a polisci department, that thinks deeply about these things, went into social services for these reasons, working with others from precisely that knowledge-base and shared understanding. then i get to a 'don't know, don't care, and ugh, you're not invited to my parties, now that i know you're one of those' which actually keeps all of that power/privilege/oppression in place - you know these words, if you did polisci, do i'll use them.

4paw said:

what i'm saying though is that the classes where this is meant to come up are insulted twice. once for being the 'token' classes on these issues, and twice for being insulted by the majority of the students, but then students are likely just taking the cue from the fact that these topics are obvious add-ons, and so not truly embraced from the top down.

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i agree that this has been a problem in the past. it does seem like many schools are making an effort to instill a much broader perspective through their new curricula. i definitely see it as built-in at the school where i'll start this summer.

but what i don't like is so many people from privileged locations all in one place, since it makes for not a lot of progressive politics around the place.

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this may be the case in your SMP, and while it is certainly observable in medical school, i think you might be surprised at the spectrum of political beliefs present. there are plenty of "limousine liberals" in medical school as well as people who made it there despite overwhelming socioeconomic odds.

o.k. that's political differences, but when in debate at least there's debate. the other politics i don't like is just the politics that comes out in everyday views - like that it's o.k. to somehow throw in sexist jokes in particular. and upon close inspection a lot of worldviews seem to come together - in terms of what i have been describing as 'youth culture' when it comes to an approach to intellectual community, and also a worldview that does not think much or care much about classism, sexism, etc, and therefore perpetuates all of this. for a long time, i was surrounded by community like in a polisci department, that thinks deeply about these things, went into social services for these reasons, working with others from precisely that knowledge-base and shared understanding. then i get to a 'don't know, don't care, and ugh, you're not invited to my parties, now that i know you're one of those' which actually keeps all of that power/privilege/oppression in place - you know these words, if you did polisci, do i'll use them.

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yeah, again, i totally agree, but i think that when faced with your group of future classmates, you'll be able to pick out the students who cling to this "inner-circle" cliquishness and elitism from across the room.

i commented earlier in this thread (i think, or perhaps another) at how different i found medical students from the post-bacc premeds. some of the kids in your SMP won't get into medical school. others will, and may continue to act the way you've described... but i think the majority will finally "grow up" after they get there.

hey nu,

i know that i'm stereotyping and polarizing, and yet there is some truth, as you're resonating with. the group i'm talking about was actually 160 med students with whom we (a small group) took our smp programming. i found that within our small little group, there is perhaps less of the 'oozing privilege' simply because we were all in this trying to fight against the odds.

but in the main classroom, there were more of the 'clique' that i could smell from across the room, than the others you're describing be they, like me, passing all the odds (whether i'll be able to finance the acceptance i've gotten to a wonderful school this year is still in the balance) or limousine liberals. another polarization, cliques vs. liberals. definitely, though, the school i've been accepted to i think has a curriculum that looks to include the things i find important and collect people who also find that important, moreso than the school that i did my smp at, which i am of course grateful to for having provided the opportunity that i pursued this year.

however, med education does have a reputation across the board, and the profession as well, as having a majority of 'apolitical' types - i.e. out of touch with social issues, and not able to figure out how that applies to medicine, or care, or be open to that. that's the stereotype of our profession and training, rooted in the optimism of 'pure science' away from politics, etc. etc. we do also have a long tradition of social activism etc. to draw on, but i think that at the education level, it is diluted with only a fraction of the class, and a fraction of the faculty really interested in that.

and, in every person it is possible to find goodness and bad, and multiple identities, so each time i slice a polarity, i may in the end be missing that lots of people have one side of one thing, and another side of another thing. descriptions of groups always misses the various intersections in each single person. so that rich girl may also have experienced radical activism and be interested and open to politics and that economically-disadvantaged background guy may have then become very conservative and refuse to analyze his own experiences.

so there is always hope in getting to know another individual. but this is done within a group dynamic that emerges that takes on an elitist dynamic, one that creates the dominant political 'apolitical' identity. the broad brush strokes come into play with the kind of assumptions that the group holds about norms, behaviours and acceptable ideas, and what will be supported and what will be dissuaded or punished in some way, and how. of course, every single one of us ends up policed in this way by the group ethos that emerges.

bringing this back to the topic at hand:
given that we are in an ageist world, this will inevitably come into play in a group. i believe there are also generational differences that will play out (like how 'education' is regarded, as i have discussed). it has also been mentioned that the older a person is, the less likely they are to be persuaded to play by cliquey standards, especially if they are the kind of older person who has decided to pursue medicine. there will be tensions.

i believe that the dominant group culture currently actually dissuades people from relating across these differences, but instead invites 'others' to be 'just like' that ideal that entraps everyone. i say this because this is a group culture that does not embrace being eclectic and different. also, the sheer numbers of the majority who share similar backgrounds and group assumptions due to generational eras and broader cultural cues will mean that there is a certain kind of culture and ethos and norm that emerges.

i have also noted that this norm is one in which it is frowned upon to speak up, question or differentiate. and, given the high stress that everyone ends up under, we are more likely to go back to 'us and them' behaviours and safety of a well-defined group. and we are less likely to have the time to analyze what kind of group we are developing and what kind of culture we actually want, and what we will do to bring that about -there just isn't the time or energy to do that.

which is why i personally advocate some group therapy model of encounter groups or small experiential process groups, facillitated by trained professionals, perhaps all those humanistic psychiatrists we have totally sidelined as a profession, so that these kinds of things are addressed in a way that is usefull rather than harmful.

4paw said:

then i get to a 'don't know, don't care, and ugh, you're not invited to my parties, now that i know you're one of those' which actually keeps all of that power/privilege/oppression in place.

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All you can do is be aware of context, avoid proselytizing, and if someone is clearly not interested in continuing the discussion in a social situation, don't force the issue. Not saying that you do this, just in general. It's tough when you're passionate about something and others are indifferent, but there will always be other people who share your interests if you look for them. If there isn't one already at your med school, try starting a student group for care for the underserved or working in a free clinic; a significant number of medical students do those things at my school.

This whole issue of discussions is an interesting one when you tend to be a fairly moderate kind of person (which I consider myself to be). I know that I find being told how I'm part of the power structure that is holding the peons down by left-wingers just as obnoxious as I find being told that I'm going to hell for my relatively liberal social beliefs by right-wingers. While both may be true, it certainly doesn't open an avenue for discussion of issues when someone comes into a conversation with the goal of convincing me of the correctness of their position, not having an actual exchange of ideas. And while I'm polite enough not to roll my eyes at these people, I will confess that I do make as hasty of an exit as I possibly can. Some discussions are also clearly pointless to have. For example, I told one person who tried to engage me in a debate about the factuality of evolution that this discussion was over, after which I walked away and left them standing there. (Amazingly, this individual still spoke to me afterward, although never again about evolution!)

Being accosted by people who are clearly out to push whatever agenda they have sets off that alarm bell in me that cries, "avoid! avoid! avoid!" This has nothing to do with the ideologue's age, though.

Hi Q -

The language in these discussions is a technical language, it has been built up in disciplines to describe certain phenomena. And the recoil that folks feel when being asked to examine their own oppression has also been explored in these fields.

I have been in a field where everyone was speaking the same language, had learned the same ideas around examining oppression, identifying how we participate in systems of oppression, using language that had been developed in the social justice movements and then onwards in the universities. Age is an area that gets examined just as sex, class, race, gender, sexuality.

What you are talking about in terms of being open to co-creating the discussion rather than trying to for instance win over a person or win an argument i believe is true across the board. what i tire of though is having been able to share some basic social justice knowledge in common, so that we could then have interesting conversations, with fellow co-workers, community organizers and friends and fellow students. what was definitely true of these communities was that differences within a group could be explored fruitfully, and folks were willing to examine themselves for how they may create a culture of respect or clique.

coming into medical school culture is a bit of a shock that way. and so the dialogue starts way over on the other side close to dominant culture - hegemonic culture. and the social location of the group does happen to be economically advantaged, young, to a great extent balanced in sex these days, but not very gay and quite white - age and other social locations do play into the analysis of how likely there is a group's cultural support for truly relating across those differences. because i'd say in the long run that the person with the more mainstream position will have the stronger position. so darwin wins over evolution, and you had the power to be able to walk away. if a person walked away because you were talking darwin and they believed in evolution, the cultural support would be against them - that could be a real character flaw! but walking away for darwin is o.k. so power plays out in every little interaction.

and youth holds sway when in youth culture. i can't think of micro-interaction examples. except that i've seen the older people be described as unfriendly for being in small group and not be willing to preface with 'i don't know, but' they were direct and don't excuse their answers. i think they asked another class-member to clarify something when the person gave an answer that was really sloppy, like "i don't know, it's whatever', and when the group leader was also getting into that kind of what i'd call defiant/scared to be different teenager way of brushing off any true discussion, he intervened. and then i heard about how he was rude and aloof.

i think there's a function of age going on there. and the confidence one gets from being out in the world, being in a career, having a family, and not being aware of the importance to some group dynamics to support an air of indifference and disinterest.

Law2Doc said:

You may feel differently in med school where time is a valuable commodity, and this person's repeated inane questions cut into your study/sleep time or eliminates your brief chance to drop off a form or run to the bathroom before the next lecture, etc. A good question now and then is fine and helpful. Daily questions one could easily look up or quietly ask the prof after class are what breeds hostility. If you want to fit in, you try to reign in any tendency to repeatedly ask the latter. I must say, though, that as many trads as nontrads violate these tenets - I don't see this as a primarilly nontrad foible.

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Umm. My time was a valuable commodity then too. 50+hrs work + 2 classes, + volunteering. I don't want to get into the debate of which time is valuable and which isn't - I can just leave it at I'm sure it won't be less valuable in med school.

I definitely don't disagree that asking RTFM questions can be particularly annoying. On the other hand, every so often in answering one of those the prof has mentioned something that I hadn't taken note of before.

I think that generally the advice from the trads in the thread focuses on being accepted by not standing out and being as much like a trad as possible, which rubs me the wrong way. I haven't had a problem being accepted by the trads in my postbaccs, and it hasn't been by being like them. I'm just not, but I'm friendly and try to be more helpful than not, and I think that's all it comes down to no matter what age you are. Jerks will be jerks.

That said, the bingo sounds HILARIOUS. So wrong, but so hilarious.

I'm non-trad and I never had an issue at any step of the way with my non-trad status. Yes, I'm a bit older and have seen many more days than my peers at medical school, but that has never been a source of issue or friction. Basically, the bottom line is that we are all medical students, facing very similar challenges. While people do have their prejudices, etc., you will find that medical school is sufficiently difficult and fast-paced, that you basically don't have time to dwell on them. There is so much being thrown at you that the focus is on getting through the challenges that school provides. We all work together fairly fluently and whatever issues there are, don't have much to do with age. Nobody cares about much else in the context of school.

Truthfully, I feel that my age and experience have been bonuses in dealing with patients and with the actual job of doctoring. I sometimes feel that I can more easily relate to a variety of people as a result of years of experience working with different people in different settings. However, I do feel a bit slow at times and I can't stay up as late (or as often) as compared to my younger peers. It definitely hurts me to push myself that way. I end up paying a pretty hefty price afterward for a single all-nighter, where it seems like my younger peers bounce back more readily. I guess I could say that I feel the physical impacts of my choices sooner and more readily than most of my younger peers. Sometimes, I wonder what it would have been like to be in my early twenties, full of energy, etc., attending medical school. Well, I guess I'll never know, but I'm not doing too bad so far.

In terms of prejudices, etc., I do think it goes both ways. I mean, who doesn't judge? I think it's part of being human. Sometimes I will catch myself judging my younger peers as one thing or the other, but then I remember that it is just a thought and that it isn't real. Most often, underneath my judgment, there's a withhold or something not being faced, meaning that it has little (or nothing) to do with the individual(s) I am projecting my thoughts onto and everything to do with me. I don't take my own judgments seriously and I don't take judgments about me seriously either; they are not worth much. People are free to judge me and my age if they wish, but it's their loss if they choose to do so, because they are then missing out on the real me since they won't be able to see past the version of me that they have crystalized in their mind. What I mean to say is that a judgment is more about the individual who is doing the judging than you.

Anyway, the point I am attempting to make is there is no obvious friction between non-trads and trads, as far as I observe. I've never had anyone make snide remarks about my age, or focus on my age in a negative way. Everyone is very focused on the experience of medical school and is simply doing what they have to do to succeed in medical school; that's pretty much it.

MirkoCrocop said:

i agree that age discrimination is bad.

-doogi howser

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You've just poven your old fogey credentials - do you think the trads these days even know who Doogie was?

This perhaps deserves another thread. But I (immature 27-year-old half-nontradid) have had a number of older students in courses during my informal posbac pre-reqs. Two types of older students beat me down:

1) Usually nurse and female. Maybe a resp. therapist or PA. Probably good at what she does all day. Flabbergasted that she's getting a C or D in Orgo - or Chem I or II or Physics, but usually not Bio. Knows the coursework is in little way related to practice of medicine. I sympathize but the ol' multiple-choice skills are necessary for med school and that USMLE.

2) Male engineer. Or other profession. Generally does well in course but thinks rest of class is enthralled by how topic being taught applies to his job and/or industry. Much less palatable than the female nurse to me.

HanginInThere said:

You've just poven your old fogey credentials - do you think the trads these days even know who Doogie was?

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Every time I see him on How I Met Your Mother I can't help but see doogie.

Just finished MI year & I am 36 years old. Honestly, I do think there is some ageism that goes on in medical school, at least in MY medical school class. But this is the society we live in...getting old is a crime.

I have to admit that I'm just not that outgoing of a person...I stay way below the radar...and really believe that works to my advantage for the most part. I tried to push myself & be a part of the social scene for a while, but I realized after about the 1st month of school that this just wasn't my "crowd". It's sort of funny, because of those few people who I have hit it off with (all of them younger than me) they pretty much all feel like they are outsiders in our class as well. They've even commented how it feels like high school all over again.

Truthfully, medical school is lonely for lots of people...even the ones who seem like they are having the most fun...young or old. As an older person with a wife & kid it's hard for me to relate to my classmates about anything besides med school stuff....but I'm trying the best I can.

It's all okay in the end...stressful sometimes...alienating sometimes...just plain out of place lots of times...but the bottom line is just try to be a nice person & sooner or later it all comes together the way its supposed to be.

OP, it doesn't seem that my age is particularly an issue with my classmates, but what goes on when I'm not around - who knows. If anything, my east coast sense of humor seems to give them more of a challenge than my age does.

I never felt discriminated or left out during my four years in medical school. I also do not think now and never have thought that my younger colleagues had "less" of a commitment to medicine or their path was "less resistant" just because they were younger. It is just AMAZING at what most medical students regardless of age have done! Some of these younger folks have done MORE than many of the bent arrows...so never assume that younger means less experienced/commited to medicine/easier path.

BTW, there is a HUGE difference in those pre-meds wannabes you meet in undergrad and the folks that actually get INTO medical school.

4paw said:

Hi Q -

The language in these discussions is a technical language, it has been built up in disciplines to describe certain phenomena. And the recoil that folks feel when being asked to examine their own oppression has also been explored in these fields. I have been in a field where everyone was speaking the same language, had learned the same ideas around examining oppression, identifying how we participate in systems of oppression, using language that had been developed in the social justice movements and then onwards in the universities. Age is an area that gets examined just as sex, class, race, gender, sexuality. What you are talking about in terms of being open to co-creating the discussion rather than trying to for instance win over a person or win an argument i believe is true across the board. what i tire of though is having been able to share some basic social justice knowledge in common, so that we could then have interesting conversations, with fellow co-workers, community organizers and friends and fellow students. what was definitely true of these communities was that differences within a group could be explored fruitfully, and folks were willing to examine themselves for how they may create a culture of respect or clique. coming into medical school culture is a bit of a shock that way. and so the dialogue starts way over on the other side close to dominant culture - hegemonic culture. and the social location of the group does happen to be economically advantaged, young, to a great extent balanced in sex these days, but not very gay and quite white - age and other social locations do play into the analysis of how likely there is a group's cultural support for truly relating across those differences. because i'd say in the long run that the person with the more mainstream position will have the stronger position. so darwin wins over evolution, and you had the power to be able to walk away. if a person walked away because you were talking darwin and they believed in evolution, the cultural support would be against them - that could be a real character flaw! but walking away for darwin is o.k. so power plays out in every little interaction. and youth holds sway when in youth culture. i can't think of micro-interaction examples. except that i've seen the older people be described as unfriendly for being in small group and not be willing to preface with 'i don't know, but' they were direct and don't excuse their answers. i think they asked another class-member to clarify something when the person gave an answer that was really sloppy, like "i don't know, it's whatever', and when the group leader was also getting into that kind of what i'd call defiant/scared to be different teenager way of brushing off any true discussion, he intervened. and then i heard about how he was rude and aloof. i think there's a function of age going on there. and the confidence one gets from being out in the world, being in a career, having a family, and not being aware of the importance to some group dynamics to support an air of indifference and disinterest.

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I really hope that the passages from the MCAT are easier to understand than this post.