Prozac and Dogs Starved as Puppies

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JaneGael

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I'm not a vet or student. I joined to post this and perhaps stir up some interest. I run a rescue for abused dogs and made a discovery that I think is worth looking into by veterinarians. The following was posted on Petfinder, so please bear with the terminology. If you find it has merit, perhaps you would do some research into it and help a lot of dogs who are being abused for being too reactive.

I put my third rescued dog on Prozac with excellent results. I have come to the conclusion that if you have a hyper dog who you know or suspect was starved or nutritionally deprived as a puppy, Prozac may be of benefit. I have not seen a study on this but intend to contact some vets and vet schools to see if anyone is interested in doing some research on it.

Prozac is an SSRI – a Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor. It works by blocking the brain from absorbing the neurotransmitter Serotonin. In my small sampling it would appear that dogs who are nutritionally deprived as puppies have brains that may over produce or have an overactive uptake of serotonin, or sensitivity to a normal amount. In other words, they are brain damaged from inadequate nutrition as puppies.

All three of these dogs are highly reactive – barking at the slightest provocation, making poor judgments such as jumping on you, or other dogs, exhibiting periodic aggression toward other dogs (but only when they are being reactive) and being difficult to train due to a high level of distractibility. The one with the worst symptoms almost died from starvation at about 6 weeks old. She has severe ADHD and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder along with being reactive.

Gloria, the pit bull in my signature was beaten severely as well as being starved and poisoned by being fed Clorox to make her mean. I considered her brain damage from the beating to be her primary disability, but I’ve come to believe that it is the starvation that caused her worst disability. Since she has been on Prozac her most prominent symptoms have subsided (sporatic aggression and severe compulsiveness.)

Nikki, my shepherd/Lab with ADHD and OCD was so bad we were considering euthanizing her. She started fights with every dog in the house, jumped on you to the point of doing injury (no doctor – I do NOT have a husband who beats me…I have a dog who loves me…) and obsessing about chasing a ball to any object to the point where she was harassing you to throw an item even in the middle of the night. Prozac has reduced her symptoms to the point where we can live with her, she no longer wants to fight with anyone and she still loves and chases her precious ball, but knows when to go play by herself. She is also learning, at 4 years old, how to play with another dog.

Cheyenne, our last trial run on Prozac, is a collie/shepherd who was rescued from being starved as a puppy and then again from being passed from home to home. She is the most reactive dog I’ve ever seen as well as one of the most beautiful. Every noise caused her to leap to her feet screaming. She picked fights constantly to the point where the others learned to ignore her aggression – she’s a coward and tries to bully the dogs to get them fighting so she can join in and bite from the rear. She jumped constantly and is the most painful dog I’ve ever owned because jumps are accompanied by being rammed by her nose, grazed by her teeth or raked by her nails. Since the Prozac kicked in she no longer barks all the time, her aggression has dropped off markedly as has her need to climb all over you.

Prozac has gotten a bad rap in humans, but I believe that it has a place to help rescue dogs who have brain damage from early depravation. It is listed as an anti-depressant and is NOT a tranquilizer (Nikki’s constant activity can attest to that.) It is quite inexpensive as Wal-Mart/Sam’s Club has it on their $4 list of prescriptions. We find it most effective administered after breakfast and after dinner. The doseage is based on the dog’s weight and may need to be adjusted upward as your vet is getting the dosage correct.

You may want to speak with your vet about Prozac, if you have a reactive dog who hyper and mildly aggressive (the aggression in my dogs went in spurts depending on how hyper they were at the time.)

Peace.
Jane and the Hole in the Wall Gang -- Hole in the Wall Rescue
Contact: [email protected]
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I'm not a vet or a vet student either (I was drawn to this thread by seeing "prozac" written next to an exclamation point on the front page. What I am is a psychiatrist for humans :) ), but to my knowledge using SSRIs in dogs is nothing new. The research is out there and it's pretty cool. Though I've mostly heard of it being used for separation anxiety.

Still though, as a general rule, putting your animals on medication without the direct supervision of a vet isn't really a good thing to do. And just so you know, I doubt that prozac is of benefit because of h/o of having been physically starved or malnourished. Emotionally starved, maybe. Abused, definitely (SSRIs are good medications for PTSD in humans). But not physical starvation/malnutrition.

But again, I defer to the vets.

The one with the worst symptoms almost died from starvation at about 6 weeks old. She has severe ADHD and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder along with being reactive.

Are ADHD and OCD actually diagnosable disorders in dogs? I've never heard that before, though like I said I am not a vet and don't pretend to be. Though I would imagine that like in humans with severe abuse histories that oftentimes these behaviors in dogs are understandable in terms of their past traumatizations. More akin to PTSD.

Prozac has gotten a bad rap in humans

It hasn't, really.
 
Prozac has gotten a bad rap in humans, but I believe that it has a place to help rescue dogs who have brain damage from early depravation. It is listed as an anti-depressant and is NOT a tranquilizer (Nikki’s constant activity can attest to that.) It is quite inexpensive as Wal-Mart/Sam’s Club has it on their $4 list of prescriptions. We find it most effective administered after breakfast and after dinner. The doseage is based on the dog’s weight and may need to be adjusted upward as your vet is getting the dosage correct.

Yeah, it's nothing new to veterinary behaviorists.

You may want to speak with your vet about Prozac, if you have a reactive dog who hyper and mildly aggressive (the aggression in my dogs went in spurts depending on how hyper they were at the time.)

Your dogs have certainly gone through a lot physically and mentally, but a disturbing trend I've noticed as a behaviorist that owners would prefer to get their dogs on a drug rather than try increasing the exercise or other behavior modification first, which naturally takes more work. Remember, dogs being house pets and having a daily walk as the highlight of their day is a very recent phenomenon in the history of our partnership with dogs. Many dogs diagnosed with OCD (yes, you can diagnose this) are actually in sore need of a job to do.

I had a client who had a border collie (uh oh...) whose vet put them on Prozac (the dog, not the client!) because they had a checkerboard linoleum floor in the kitchen and the dog would bounce up and down on the checkerboard pattern and would chase a laser pen until exhaustion. The client's boyfriend was a jogger and they would go 5-10 miles a day! The trouble was, border collies are designed to be running up to 50 miles a day doing mentally exhausting herding exercises. So the physical exercise was there, but the mental exercise was not. The dog had nice ball drive, so they tried flyball and the dog hasn't been bouncing since. :D
 
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Okay, I mistakenly thought this was a professional forum. Sorry for that.

The dogs are being monitored by a vet and behavior mod did not work. These 3 are the worst of the worst and I only take the worst. I thought it worthwhile to study if there is a connection between a SSRI and a brain injured by poor nutrition. Apparently the responders do not agree.

Sorry I wasted your time.

Sincerely,
Jane

Ps. Don't waste your time reprimanding me for my manners. I won't be back to read your responses. I'm sick to death of people who know it all when they are not the ones in the trenches.
 
*blink* What? I don't know how you misinterpreted what I said, but it is true. Prozac is not new in dogs. I've been a behaviorist for several years (I give discounts to people who adopted shelter/rescue pets) and I also have a masters degree in biology (one of the components being in behavior). I've also fostered dozens of dogs for the local shelter and for national Malinois rescue (almost all of them were the working breeds, like Rotties, German shepherds, huskies, etc that no one wants to foster). I'm also the vice president of the Student Chapter of the Association of Shelter Veterinarians at our vet school. So don't tell me I likewise haven't been in the trenches with shelter/rescue dogs with behavioral issues. :rolleyes:

From experience, I've had numerous calls and inquiries about "what can I give my dog to stop destroying my stuff?" and other similiar issues. A lot of people in our society don't want to work on modifying behavior, they just want a pill. Now, I never said your dogs don't have issues that may benefit from drug therapy. And if it works for them, that's great! One more dog who can go to a nice home. But it's not very appropriate for people, as experienced as they may be, telling other people on an open forum to run out and ask their vet for some dog Prozac if
you have a reactive dog who hyper and mildly aggressive (the aggression in my dogs went in spurts depending on how hyper they were at the time.)
In addition, many vets know very little about training and behavior themselves. The professor who taught our domestic animal behavior class when I was a grad student taking a pre-vet oriented class described operant completely WRONG. A freshman psychology major should have known that. I had to e-mail him to correct him and he agreed with me. Some vets still advocate alpha rolls and choke chains to their clients who are clueless about training when what they really need is a decent motivational trainer. I would suggest consulting a board certified veterinary behaviorist (the equivalent of a psychiatrist) before prescribing Prozac IF good motivational training did not have the desired effect.
 
:confused: She was in and out of here so fast it made my head spin!
 
I didn't see anything wrong with Electrophile's response. I tried behavior modification for my dachshund and then when it failed, we tried behavior modification and a short course of low-dose prozac WITH behavior modification and he's a lot better now. He's just a stubborn old doxie with separation anxiety. :D
 
I FOUND THE CONNECTION!!!

I was searching and ran across studies on male aggression because of a defect in the MAOA gene. I searched for that + nutrition and found this article on an Autism web site:
http://www.autismwebsite.com/crimetimes/05a/w05ap12.htm

EARLY DIET AFFECTS BRAIN FUNCTION
A report by Brazilian researchers adds to evidence (see page 1) (see related article, Crime Times, 2005, Vol. 11, No. 1, Page 1) that early malnutrition can permanently affect brain function.

J. M. Barreto-Medeiros and colleagues divided 64 rats into two groups: one nursed by well-fed mothers and a second nursed by malnourished mothers. After weaning, all of the rats received a good diet.

When the rats reached adulthood, the researchers injected half of them with fluoxetine (Prozac), which affects serotonin levels in the brain and normally results in reduced aggression in rats. The rats who were well-fed in early life reacted normally to the drug by exhibiting less aggression, but the rats who experienced malnutrition during infancy did not reduce their aggressive behavior. The researchers conclude, "These findings suggest that the serotonergic system was affected by malnutrition during the critical period of brain development, and [that these effects] persisted even after a long period of nutritional recovery."

"Malnutrition during brain growth spurt alters the effect of fluoxetine on aggressive behavior in adult rats," J. M. Barreto-Medeiros, E. G. Feitoza, K. Magalhaes, J. E. Cabral-Filho, F. M. Manhaes-De-Castro, C. M. De-Castro, and R. Manhaes-De-Castro, Nutritional Neuroscience, Vol. 7, No. 1, 2004, 49-52. Address: J. M. Barreto-Medeiros, Dept. de Nutricao, Universidade Federal de Pernambuco (UFPE), Cidade Universitaria, 50670-901, Recife, PE, Brazil.

http://www.autismwebsite.com/crimetimes/05a/w05ap1.htm

EARLY MALNUTRITION LINKED TO LATER AGGRESSION, HYPERACTIVITY
A poor diet in early life is a strong risk factor for aggression and hyperactivity in childhood and adolescence, a new study reports.

Jianghong Liu and colleagues compared 353 children who were malnourished at age 3 to a control group of about 1,200 children who did not show signs of malnutrition at this age. All of the children were participants in a long-term study conducted on the island of Mauritius, off the coast of Africa.
Children were categorized as malnourished if they exhibited any of these signs:

angular stomatitis (cracking of the lips and corners of the mouth, a sign of riboflavin and/or niacin deficiency).
abnormal hair pigmentation (a common sign of protein malnutrition, particularly in Africa).
sparse, thin hair (a sign of protein-energy malnutrition or overall malnutrition; also a possible sign of zinc and/or iron deficiency).
anemia, a sign of iron deficiency.

Overall, 22.6 percent of the children in the study showed one or more signs of malnutrition at age 3. To determine if the degree of malnutrition was a factor, the researchers divided the subjects into groups based on the number of malnutrition signs the children exhibited.

Liu and colleagues analyzed behavioral data taken when the children reached the ages of 8, 11, and 17, and report that "the children with malnutrition signs at age 3 years were more aggressive or hyperactive at age 8 years, had more externalizing problems at age 11, and had greater conduct disorder and excessive motor activity at age 17." These findings remained true when the researchers controlled for psychosocial factors including parental education and employment status, mother's age and marital status, quality of housing, access to toys and books, number of siblings, and presence or absence of parental mental illness.

A "dose-response" relationship was seen in the tests performed at ages 8 and 17, with a higher number of malnutrition signs correlating with a greater degree of externalizing behavior. The researchers also found that at 8 and 11, low IQ mediated the link between malnutrition and behavior problems. This indicates, Liu et al. say, that "malnutrition predisposes children to a lower IQ, which in turn predisposes them to externalizing behavior problems." They note, however, that malnutrition was associated with externalizing behavior problems at age 17 even when they controlled for IQ.

Liu and colleagues note that the malnutrition-behavior link remained strong at different ages, was detected by three different behavioral tests, and was true for both genders and for different ethnic groups included in the study. They note, however, that further research is needed to investigate whether the effects on behavior stemmed from transient or chronic malnutrition, and whether prenatal malnutrition played a role.

"We hypothesize that early malnutrition negatively affects brain growth and development," they conclude, "and that brain impairments predispose to antisocial and violent behavior by affecting cognitive functions." They cite scientific literature showing that zinc, protein, and iron deficiencies can impair brain development and predispose to aggression, as well as recent research showing that dietary improvements can lead to reductions in antisocial behavior in adult criminal offenders (see related article, Crime Times, 2002, Vol. 8, No. 3, Page 1).

"Because nutrition is a malleable factor," they say, "it may be more practical and easier to prevent externalizing behavior through better early nutrition targeting at-risk populations than more complex and expensive psychosocial manipulations." Such measures, they say, may also need to target prenatal diet in order to be effective.

-----
"Malnutrition at age 3 years and externalizing behavior problems at ages 8, 11, and 17 years," Jianghong Liu, Adrian Raine, Peter H. Venables, and Sarnoff A. Mednick, American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 161, November 2004, 2005-13. Address: Adrian Raine, Department of Psychology, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089-1061, [email protected].

Related Article: [2005, Vol. 11]

Now all I have to do is figure out what to do with this information and see if anyone has thought to do a study on animals who exhibit hyperactivity and aggression. AND why my dogs exhibit less aggression on Prozac than seems indicated by the first article. It may be that their aggression was based on their hyperactivity as they were easily distracted from it and not really eager to fight.

This has huge implications for veterinarians and for people who do rescue. It only affects a small percentage of dogs, but with 8 million dogs being euthanized in this country and the dogs who are adopted but have behavior problems that they are unable to control through training and behavior mod -- that consitutes a sizeable population.

It is my hope that someone with an interest in pursuing this line of research will see this post and find it worthy of further study.
 
Okay, I mistakenly thought this was a professional forum. Sorry for that.

The dogs are being monitored by a vet and behavior mod did not work. These 3 are the worst of the worst and I only take the worst. I thought it worthwhile to study if there is a connection between a SSRI and a brain injured by poor nutrition. Apparently the responders do not agree.

Sorry I wasted your time.

Sincerely,
Jane

Ps. Don't waste your time reprimanding me for my manners. I won't be back to read your responses. I'm sick to death of people who know it all when they are not the ones in the trenches.


Whoa. What was this about aggression? Who might need some Prozac? ;) People giving opinions is not unprofessional.

Prozac in dogs with extreme cases of hyperactivity. aggression, seperation anxiety, etc has indeed been helpful, and yes, nutrition does play an early role in many developmental brain disorders, both by exacerbating already present genetic problems and hindering normal processes. No one is refuting that.....not quite sure why you got so upset? No one was accusing you of throwing behavior modification out the window and sticking your dogs on drugs...Electrophile was simply making a statement that people *do* do that, and it isn't the right course, andsunlioness stated that Prozac is not appropriate if only given for nutritional reasons , and since you had not mentioned any veterinary involvement, all were concerned. Take it easy.

No one reprimanded your manners, and no one assumed to "know it all" - they gave their opinions. Being so reactive when questioned does not bode well.
 
the dogs who are adopted but have behavior problems that they are unable to control through training and behavior mod -- that consitutes a sizeable population

Actually, the vast majority of dogs turned in for behavioral reasons have very correctable problems - barking, house soiling, pulling, hyperactivity due to insufficient exercise, etc.....the issue is people are not willing to put in the time and effort. Very few dogs actually need medication - it sounds like, if behavior modification totally failed and there was no other option, Prozac was the right choice for your dogs and good for you that things are working!!

However, as always, psychotropic medication should be considered as a last resort.

And....lest you become offended again...this *is* someone in the trenches - I have a very hyperactive and dog-aggressive dog who I have been working with various behavior modification techniques for the past three and a half years, with very, VERY slow, but measureable improvement. Not to mention the fact that I have to take psychotropic medication myself, and have taken 6 different SSRIs in particular, and I know the risks and unpredictability of such drugs. Not all dogs will react the same just as not all people react the same. A drug that did wonders for one person caused me to have a severe manic episode. A drug that worked fine for me caused liver damage in another. Etc, etc.....again, last resort medications.
 
I have to respond to the comment about folks here not being "in the trenches." I would bet money that many here have been active in rescue, and/or will be in future. I know I am---my home is a foster home for a dog rescue group. I've pulled half-feral, flybitten, whip- and hook-infested, malnourished, hyperreactive dogs from the nastiest shelter environment you can even dream up. And at the vet clinic where I work, which is very near a badly struggling post-industrial northeastern city, we've seen dogs in such bad shape due to neglect if not outright abuse that no rescue I know of could take them on.

So I think that making assumptions about what the people here have or have not seen or done is supremely counterproductive. The prevet in me is offended and indignant that some rescuer somewhere thinks I've never had my hands dirty. The rescuer in me wants to apologize to all the vets/prevets and say we're not ALL this combative and touchy. The rational, animal-loving human being in me wants to point out that vets and rescuers need each other very much, and any sort of us-vs-them attitude from either direction only thwarts our common goals, by eroding the positive sentiment necessary for us to work together respectfully & well.

... we *are* in it for the animals, aren't we?

On topic, the pharma who markets Prozac under the name "Reconcile" for dogs is always very careful to say that it should be used only in combination with a behavior modification plan. The full label for Reconcile is here: http://elms.xh1.lilly.com/Reconcile_Vet_label.pdf
 
Ps. Don't waste your time reprimanding me for my manners. I won't be back to read your responses. I'm sick to death of people who know it all when they are not the ones in the trenches.

*Raises Hand* I'm one of the ones "in the trenches", or at least I was until a few months ago. I've found that most people involved in rescue and sheltering are incredibly compassionate and absolutely love the animals they work with. I think this is great. However, I've also found that many of them fall prey to the whole "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" maxim. They've often come to rescue with very little background in animal care, medicine, or behavioral work and learn most things through experience.

This is a perfect example. There's nothing wrong with learning "in the trenches." However, having done so may have prevented the OP from realizing that prozac is already used pretty widely for behavioral issues in dogs. It is a very useful drug in some cases, but we already know that. It's even been listed in a dog only form ("Reconcile.")

Incidentally, it's also really useful for some cats. It can be used to treat house soiling, for example (not that it should be the first line of treatment.)
 
Hi. I'm not a vet or a vet student. I am a people nurse though. I just adopted a bonded pair of older dogs (4 & 6) from a local shelter. They were victims of the economy-their former house was foreclosed.

The 6 year old female was on Prozac for "anxiety" 20 mg twice a day. Once she got into a home setting with air conditioning and a couch to lounge on, she was fine. Under the shelter's instructions, I have decreased the dosage to once a day and no problems. Apparently the big issue there was that she was not eating and had lost alot of weight. She eats well here.

They have not seen our vet yet-plan to do that Thursday. I also plan on getting a trainer here at home to get some advice. They seem to have been trained as they know basic commands and walk well on a leash. No aggression, no "anxiety" but I'm not sure what to look for. She just lounges, gets up to go on walks and be petted, plays in the yard-seems like a normal dog to me. They said she had storm anxiety and we had a thunderstorm today. She just paced for a bit and then settled down. The other dog I had to put down recently had storm anxiety. She would try to climb on the back of chairs like a cat-and she was 80 lbs. I mean she would destroy the house during thunderstorms. So this just seems really mild in comparison.

She is very thin. She is supposed to be a shepherd mix but looks more Rottie to me. Needs to gain about 10 lbs or so. Her friend needs to lose about 20-I think he was eating her food. When I saw her at the shelter, she was just lying on a raised area in the run and seemed more depressed than anxious to me. So she is much more active now than she was at the shelter.

My question is this: Is it common for shelters to put dogs on Prozac for behavior control? I don't mean to sound judgmental but they are working with limited budgets and staff. Rather like human healthcare institutions-if there is a behavior, it is medicated rather than explored due to time and personnel constraints.

Maybe I'm trying to decrease my own anxiety with giving this dog psychotropics. I read through the responses and see that most agree that medicating is not the first line of defense. But again, I can see where a shelter cannot invest alot of time and money in one animal when there are so many needing care.

Anyway, opinions would be appreciated.
 
I agree with PATHBrd, this is not the place for diagnoses. That is what VIN is for. That said, and I am the Antichrist to many who have already posted here I know, I agree with them anyhow that rescue people get a really bad rap, and a lot of the time it is not the dog's fault. This seems to be a recurring problem in the mongrel/shelter dog population, but I have a feeling (not a diagnosis) that this has more to do with a bad early upbringing/poor socialization than any inherent disorder.
 
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