Average Salary

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DPT2MD

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I was hoping to find out the avg salary is for EM attendings. I have found some data online but would like to hear from some of you. Also, is it true that as an EM attending you work 3-4 twelve hour shifts a week? Thanks in advance.
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DPT2MD said:
I was hoping to find out the avg salary is for EM attendings. I have found some data online but would like to hear from some of you. Also, is it true that as an EM attending you work 3-4 twelve hour shifts a week? Thanks in advance.
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It depends on the type of job, how much you work, and location. Typical private community docs make anywhere from $180K to 300K. Academics is typically about 150-180K.
 
I also really want to know what are ED attending working hours like?
 
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medsRus said:
I also really want to know what are ED attending working hours like?
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Again it depends on the type of attending. Academic attendings typically work fewer clinical hours, perhaps 30 hours per week, however they spend many hours per week giving lectures, education, and administrative work.

Private practice depends on your contract. Most contracts insist upon an average of 140 hours per month (approximately 35 hours per week), however some require more and others less.
 
Surprisingly enough, neither of these questions have ever been answered before.




Or not.




F
 
In the time it took you to be a smart ass you could have answered the question just as easily, but thanks anyway Ninja...
 
DPT2MD said:
In the time it took you to be a smart ass you could have answered the question just as easily, but thanks anyway Ninja...
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You may wish to be careful with the personal attacks being that you have a grand total of 20 posts (as of this post). Many see people not unlike yourself coming in asking questions such as yours as trolling for a war of words. :troll:

If you don't like smart asses, you might not want to read/post in the EM forum as most of us around these parts are just that. :bow:
 
lucky_deadman said:
You may wish to be careful with the personal attacks being that you have a grand total of 20 posts (as of this post). Many see people not unlike yourself coming in asking questions such as yours as trolling for a war of words. :troll:

If you don't like smart asses, you might not want to read/post in the EM forum as most of us around these parts are just that. :bow:
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And being 'pre-medical' dont forget who is your superior and just how small the EM world is.....your certainly not in a spot to make enemies.


As you could probably have simply guessed, salaries range from 100-500K with the avg being somewhere in the mid 200s depending on location, location, academic vs private, and total hours worked per month.
 
First of all I dont spend enough time with these forums to know what 'trolling' is (as you should know considering your comment about my 20 posts) and second, at this point in my career I could care less about upsetting someone who is my 'superior' simply because I stated the obvious that someone was being a smart ass...but I do appreciate your response once you stated the two above facts. I am about to start school in a couple of weeks with a strong desire for surgery or emergency medicine and I have done some research about the original questions, just wanted to see what some of you who were actually working had to say.
 
Quite a weird reaction to get from what you thought was an innocent post, huh? I've been lurking around here for several years now since I was in med school. People tend to forget the reason that student doctor exists, (for students). I know that I viewed student doctor as a kind of mentor, since I didn't have a good mentor in medical school. Some people on here get extremely anal when you bring something up that they have already discussed. They read your post and think, "Gosh, what a ******, we discussed like just three years ago" (Read that quote with a Napoleon Dynamite voice). Some people view numbers of posts as a pre-requisite to be in the cool ER crowd. You get the impression that they would write on the rest of their resumes for the rest of their lives that they have 1000+ posts on student doctor. Why do I come here? It is a sick obsession that my wife tells me I need to stop. I get a kick out of a lot of the threads and once in a while, learn something. Once in a while, somebody will be extremely helpful and post a link to the previous discussion, rather than flame the OP. I think mostly, that people just love to win an argument, and put others down while being completely anonymous. I'm making around $220,000 a year just out of residency. I work 12 12's a month.
 
I really appreciate your response...I was starting to think like you 'why do I keep coming back here'. That sounds like pretty good money and also pretty good hours. I am the type who loves medicine but also loves to be home with my wife and relaxing, that is why EM is quickly moving up my list of career choices. Again, thank you for the honest and thoughtful response. Anyone else out there willing to offer salary and shift advice?
 
DPT2MD said:
I really appreciate your response...I was starting to think like you 'why do I keep coming back here'. That sounds like pretty good money and also pretty good hours. I am the type who loves medicine but also loves to be home with my wife and relaxing, that is why EM is quickly moving up my list of career choices. Again, thank you for the honest and thoughtful response. Anyone else out there willing to offer salary and shift advice?
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Em isn't the highest paying specialty, but for the hours we work it's unbeatable. What other medical specialty can allow you to earn 300K but only work half the days of the month?
 
Sounds pretty good to me, thanks to you also for responding. Seems like EM is also not all that competitive either...with step 1 scores just above average.
 
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You would think with the money and hours it would be more competitive.
 
DPT2MD said:
I could care less about upsetting someone who is my 'superior' simply because I stated the obvious that someone was being a smart ass...
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1. I'm not superior to anyone, lest of all you
2. I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass
3. In the time it took you to make the original post you could have searched and found your answer a dozen times over, easily.

DPT2MD said:
You would think with the money and hours it would be more competitive.
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It's not easy. It might not be the hardest to get into, but it certainly isn't guaranteed.
 
I think I am a rarity when it comes to EM.

I work in a community hospital, work about 15 dys a month. 8 hr days.

I am a partner and pull in 450k (pay and retirement). This does not include my health and liability which is paid for by the group. So I would guess I am close to 500K when everything is accounted for.

Lifestyle is good for EM, but when ur at work... I work pretty hard.
 
DPT2MD, if your between EM and surgery, mention that to some of your surgery attendings once you start clinicals, if you have a good rapport with them. Yes, I am serious. I did and I am in EM now, thank God! Sure you will get some flak from them at first about EM docs as triage docs etc. but when it comes down to it, every private practice surgeon told me that if I could live without surgery to go for EM. I need to keep them on my Christmas card list.
 
DPT2MD said:
You would think with the money and hours it would be more competitive.
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the average step 1 is deceptive, as this is not a major focus of many programs like with some fields. Most programs fill, leaving maybe 10 scramble spots in an average year. It's not derm or plastic surgery, but it's not medicine or psychiatry, either. It also takes a certain personality, which weeds out a lot of people who don't like treating any and everybody, don't like the pace, don't like being in the fish bowl, and certainly don't want to work nights and weekends as an attending.
 
DPT2MD said:
You would think with the money and hours it would be more competitive.
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It gets more competitive every year. Seems like lots of students want to go into this profession these days!
 
DPT2MD, if your between EM and surgery, mention that to some of your surgery attendings once you start clinicals, if you have a good rapport with them. Yes, I am serious. I did and I am in EM now, thank God! Sure you will get some flak from them at first about EM docs as triage docs etc. but when it comes down to it, every private practice surgeon told me that if I could live without surgery to go for EM. I need to keep them on my Christmas card list.
Click to expand...

I used to think that surgery was for me (ortho was my favorite) but as I get closer to starting school and have been married for nine months I think I could live without surgery in order tho have more time at home with the wife and future kids, especially if the money is pretty good. I think I need something like surgery or EM for its fast pace and chance to do some procedures and use my hands. For years I was hesitant to go into medicine because I wanted a life outside of my job, so that is good to hear...
 
Power trips are always funny, especially when they're on the internet.
 
Something to think about:

Maybe it's just me, but the more and more I'm involved in EM, the more and more it seems to be more medicine-oriented and less-surgery oriented. Sure, plenty of different procedures to do, but they don't seem to be focus of it. Course, I have a skewed and limited perspective on things. But I've had friends who consider EM because they want to be surgical without going into surgery. And when I ask them how they liked medicine, they hated it. I know if they go into the field, they're going to hate all the primary care stuff we have to deal with (err...moreso than most of us)
 
EM is perfect for the person who liked a little bit of every rotation, but none of them enough to do that specialty exclusively.

I really like critical care, IM, gyn, ortho, etc. Just none of them enough to do exclusively.

I also loved surgery but not enough to be a surgeon. Of course, med students often think surgery is only about being in the OR (ie working with hands) and forget about all the pre/post op management, clinic, etc that must be done.

I love parts of the OR. But the procedures I get to do in the ED are enough for me. Plus, more importantly, I love the essence of EM.
 
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roja said:
EM is perfect for the person who liked a little bit of every rotation, but none of them enough to do that specialty exclusively.
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As always, our Roja hits the nail on the head.

You really do have to love it, but if you do, the choice is obvious.

Danielle

PS. Just joined an academic group at a community site. Waiting for that first paycheck...
 
Hi Hard24get,
I want to apply for EM/IM at UCLA. I went there for Undergrad. My usmle is 230, 96 percentile. I have published 2 pprs, 1 in neuro (at UCLA) and 1 in ortho ( at cedar sinai). I wanted to know what it takes/ an average app looks like that applies to EM/IM at UCLA. Am I just grabbing in the dark, or do I have a legit chance to do this? If i do, what else do I need to "up" my app

thanks a lot. have a very nice day
 
roja said:
EM is perfect for the person who liked a little bit of every rotation, but none of them enough to do that specialty exclusively.

I really like critical care, IM, gyn, ortho, etc. Just none of them enough to do exclusively.

I also loved surgery but not enough to be a surgeon. Of course, med students often think surgery is only about being in the OR (ie working with hands) and forget about all the pre/post op management, clinic, etc that must be done.

I love parts of the OR. But the procedures I get to do in the ED are enough for me. Plus, more importantly, I love the essence of EM.
Click to expand...

Of course I am way off from this now, but I think I will be a lot like you. As of now I picture myself liking most things in medicine and finding it hard to decide on any one. With the obvious other perks of EM I think I might choose that over one of the other specialties I feel might be the singular thing I like best. Third year rotations may completely change my mind but who knows.

Although I will say I've spent significant time working in surgery and in a surgeon's clinic and I definitely enjoyed both sides of it. So who knows.
 
I could see how someone who enjoyed each of their rotations but couldn't imagine doing any one of them for the rest of their career would like EM, you get to do a little bit of everything but not the same thing day after day (from what I know).
 
Jarabacoa said:
Quite a weird reaction to get from what you thought was an innocent post, huh? I’ve been lurking around here for several years now since I was in med school. People tend to forget the reason that student doctor exists, (for students). I know that I viewed student doctor as a kind of mentor, since I didn’t have a good mentor in medical school. Some people on here get extremely anal when you bring something up that they have already discussed. They read your post and think, “Gosh, what a ******, we discussed like just three years ago” (Read that quote with a Napoleon Dynamite voice). Some people view numbers of posts as a pre-requisite to be in the cool ER crowd. You get the impression that they would write on the rest of their resumes for the rest of their lives that they have 1000+ posts on student doctor. Why do I come here? It is a sick obsession that my wife tells me I need to stop. I get a kick out of a lot of the threads and once in a while, learn something. Once in a while, somebody will be extremely helpful and post a link to the previous discussion, rather than flame the OP. I think mostly, that people just love to win an argument, and put others down while being completely anonymous. I'm making around $220,000 a year just out of residency. I work 12 12's a month.
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well stated my friend! i've been around sdn a while, and this is well put. McNinja, get a life. Just because you have a fancy avatar doesn't mean everyone has been around this forum for 20 years like yourself.
 
Just my 2 cents...you can still do searches for these answers even if it was 3 years ago. I know this was discussed already once this year, so there is even up to date information. Please just do a simple search.
 
You know, sometimes I think, like you guys are saying "why don't people just search this stuff". But I have come up with a reason why that would be an issue. A lot of people just aren't very good at searching on the internet. Have you ever tried to watch colleagues who are not internet junkies like us trying to search something on Google? It's painful! They just don't understand what search terms to use or how to scan quickly through the results and figure out which of them are good and which are not. So, if you aren't internet savvy, and aren't a quick reader (to help you wade through the results), then I think it could be pretty frustrating and time consuming to make a search for a topic.

This points to the fact that we just need a better FAQ/method to direct people, as noted in another thread.

For salary info, I recommend this link, which perhaps you have, but in case you don't, go check it out.
http://www.acep.org/publications.aspx?id=27586
 
quinsy said:
They just don't understand what search terms to use or how to scan quickly through the results and figure out which of them are good and which are not.
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It's not like Boolean search terms are required these days.

Simply clicking the "Search" button then typing "physician salary" is going to bring up some good topics.
 
If you want to live anywhere desirable, expect $225k to $250k. You may get $300 with benies or after a 1-2 year "audition" for partnership, but don't bank on it.

Second, EM is pretty competitive, but like has been said previously it's not for bookworms. EM is the most communication intensive specialty there is. You have 30 seconds to make an impression on patients you've never met before. You have to deal with PCPs worried about losing patients, specialists that don't want to admit your patients and parents that are freaked out. And then there is the staff that you have no control over (unlike most specialties) and you MUST be able to work with.

For these reasons, PDs in EM look for nice people that make good first impressions and are easy going and easy to get along with. You've got to reasonably bright and motivated, but arrogance isn't going to work in the ED.

Expect to be on 100% and not get a chance to eat or pee for at least 8 hours. IF you can get over that and have a personality that fits (and not care about patient continuity of care) EM is plain awesome.

As for surgery, I would only do it if you can't live without the OR. I miss the OR every day, but I'm still thrilled with my lifestyle in residency, let alone as an attending down the road.
 
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lucky_deadman said:
You may wish to be careful with the personal attacks being that you have a grand total of 20 posts (as of this post). Many see people not unlike yourself coming in asking questions such as yours as trolling for a war of words. :troll:

If you don't like smart asses, you might not want to read/post in the EM forum as most of us around these parts are just that. :bow:
Click to expand...

Point of order: it wasn't a "personal attack." It was a smartass remark. And since you go on to say that smartass remarks are SOC on this forum, you kinda saw off the tree limb you're standing on.
 
EM2BE said:
Just my 2 cents...you can still do searches for these answers even if it was 3 years ago. I know this was discussed already once this year, so there is even up to date information. Please just do a simple search.
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Even though a topic may have been addressed in the past, many like to bring it up fresh and have a dialogue with people in the present.

There's no excuse for anyone to jump on someone for not using the search function. What the hell do you care? I see all such responses as nothing more than an attempt to come up with a witty response and in turn bolster their e-image.
 
auphlee said:
There's no excuse for anyone to jump on someone for not using the search function. What the hell do you care? I see all such responses as nothing more than an attempt to come up with a witty response and in turn bolster their e-image.
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Then perhaps you should look more closely, and be less short-sighted, as there are people (including me) that do not include a quip or an insult in suggesting that someone use the search function.

And, with a response like yours, it becomes less likely that someone who might have more experience with the topic at hand would be willing to engage in discourse with someone newer that makes an inquiry that seems simplistic or unresearched. That's why I care, and that is why I recommend the search function (however, if you use a blanket statement as "all such" as "jumping on someone", that is your issue).
 
Apollyon said:
as there are people (including me) that do not include a quip or an insult in suggesting that someone use the search function.
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In this case I resort to my original sentiment: why do you care? Let alone care enough to post something about it. If someone reiterating a question annoys you, move along. Posting your annoyance is strange. At least in my eyes.
 
Apollyon said:
it becomes less likely that someone who might have more experience with the topic at hand would be willing to engage in discourse with someone newer that makes an inquiry that seems simplistic or unresearched.
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I just caught this. Yeah, that's a good point. Human nature, I guess.
 
so how much do they make, exactly?....

i'm reminded of the question: if you had a million dollars what would you do for a living?

a better question is: if surgeons worked 12 to 15 days a month, how much would they make? or, if EP's worked 25 days a month, how much would they make?

more in line with common sense, i'd say
 
adismo said:
so how much do they make, exactly?....

i'm reminded of the question: if you had a million dollars what would you do for a living?

a better question is: if surgeons worked 12 to 15 days a month, how much would they make? or, if EP's worked 25 days a month, how much would they make?

more in line with common sense, i'd say
Click to expand...


I believe burnout in EM exists no more than 'other' speciliaties, but if people routinely worked 25 12 hour shifts every month, I think that would go up. Some of the jobs I have loosely looked at in Texas, 25 12s shifts would scare 700K.....

If general surgeons worked 12-15 days each month, they would be going hungry (well not techincally). They pretty much MUST have so many days of clinics to see new patients/referrels leading to hopeful OR cases, then they also have all those FUs to keep an eye on for oftentimes several weeks...and then the occasional complications.
 
It's easy to do the math. Assume the average community ED physician gets paid $150/hour, then multiply 150 by the number of hours per month for the gross salary.
 
southerndoc said:
It's not like Boolean search terms are required these days.

Simply clicking the "Search" button then typing "physician salary" is going to bring up some good topics.
Click to expand...
In theory, yes. In practice, no.

Click on the Search option in this forum and type "physician salary" in the box and you get page after page of nothingness, few links at all in the Emergency forum at all.

Type "emergency medicine physician salary" and only 3 links in the Emergency Medicine forum come up in the first 10 and they are:

Things I Learned from my Patients, parts 1 and 2
Former Paramedics in EM
Book suggestions for new intern?

Even if you do it right, and click Advanced Search, then set your setting to restrict the search to the EM forum, you can't do phrase searches. A search for "average hours" produces all hits with average OR hours.

I agree most folks new to SDN need to spend more time reading FAQs and scrolling through pages of links, but the search function on SDN leaves a lot to be desired. We shouldn't pretend it's as easy as typing in a phrase and getting your results.
 
So is it pretty common then for emergency physicians to make $150/hr, and for surgeons to make about the same per hour only working twice as much?
 
Are there any ideas on what kind of an impact an increase in urgent care facilites will have on ED's bottom lines?
 
Rendar5 said:
Something to think about:

Maybe it's just me, but the more and more I'm involved in EM, the more and more it seems to be more medicine-oriented and less-surgery oriented. Sure, plenty of different procedures to do, but they don't seem to be focus of it. Course, I have a skewed and limited perspective on things. But I've had friends who consider EM because they want to be surgical without going into surgery. And when I ask them how they liked medicine, they hated it. I know if they go into the field, they're going to hate all the primary care stuff we have to deal with (err...moreso than most of us)
Click to expand...
Yeah man, I hear you. Trauma and procedures are sweet, no lie. But I actually have a lotta fun with "chest pain" or some such. And I :love: the sometimes insanity of it all. Crazy drunk guy in 10? The soon-to-be PES admission in 15? Head lac s/p assault in 20? Give it to me. I dunno, if it's like that when I walk in for my shift, I get pumped.

I can't imagine how someone who despised their medicine rotation would last long in EM.
 
I could see hating your medicine rotation and liking EM. The thought of rounding for 5 hours doesn't pump up too many EM people. Nor an hour long discussion on if that patient's BUN fits the Chicago criteria or the Boston scale (I made those up, don't try to find them). Though yeah, you need to at least like the medicine of your medicine rotation, if not the day to day grind.
 
DrMom said:
IM was my absolute least favorite rotation in med school.
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for the rounding? or the pathology? I agree with the rounding bit.....

anyway, I am happy to have finally figured out what I wanna do with my life. Now where are the cookies? :D
 
I hated rounding and the nitpicking over everything. I don't care which kind of test was performed to determine their serum sodium. I really don't care if the K+ is 3.4. I've long wanted to write the order for banana to bedside stat. ;)
 
DrMom said:
I hated rounding and the nitpicking over everything. I don't care which kind of test was performed to determine their serum sodium. I really don't care if the K+ is 3.4. I've long wanted to write the order for banana to bedside stat. ;)
Click to expand...

One of my ED attendings actually calculated it, and a single banana really is the equivalent of K+ PO.
 
DrMom said:
I hated rounding and the nitpicking over everything. I don't care which kind of test was performed to determine their serum sodium. I really don't care if the K+ is 3.4. I've long wanted to write the order for banana to bedside stat. ;)
Click to expand...
:idea:

Of course, you know that you'd get paged for such an order. But still....:laugh:
 
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