Difficult Days

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Coastie

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Rough week in CA-1-ville..

You could have everything set up, know your patients, and then blow the IV on the first guy, and it goes down hill....

Or, you could have a slick system that is your own, have a new attending who comes in, has a completely different one, and berates you constantly for meaningless setup issues, throwing you off...

Go off floor to cramped colonoscopy rooms for MAC cases which quickly deteriorate to GAs, long stays in the PACU fighting with nurses about orders, only to barely have enough time to turnover the room and see the next patient, in the meantime, having attendings switch, and having the new one berate you for running a bit late...

Any other CA-1's have completely off days?
 
Rough week in CA-1-ville..

You could have everything set up, know your patients, and then blow the IV on the first guy, and it goes down hill....

Or, you could have a slick system that is your own, have a new attending who comes in, has a completely different one, and berates you constantly for meaningless setup issues, throwing you off...

Go off floor to cramped colonoscopy rooms for MAC cases which quickly deteriorate to GAs, long stays in the PACU fighting with nurses about orders, only to barely have enough time to turnover the room and see the next patient, in the meantime, having attendings switch, and having the new one berate you for running a bit late...

Any other CA-1's have completely off days?

You've just adeptly described the entire three years of anesthesia residency.

And, quite frankly, after a while you just get f*cking sick of it. Residency is as much a test of your ability to become a good clinician as it is a test of how well you handle being treated like a child in an abusive family.

-copro
 
Awesome..So I guess the answer to my question is a yes?



You've just adeptly described the entire three years of anesthesia residency.

And, quite frankly, after a while you just get f*cking sick of it. Residency is as much a test of your ability to become a good clinician as it is a test of how well you handle being treated like a child in an abusive family.

-copro
 
Feel your pain. Friday afternoon, 3:00, my room done for the day. Schedule comes out at 3:30, CA-1 lecture from 4:30-5:30, plans with wife at 6:30. My plan is to get schedule, look up pt's, call attending for Monday, order drugs from pharmacy, go to lecture, and get the hell out of dodge. Get a call from OR coordinator. "Can you go relieve Bob in room 17? There is an add-on left leg A-V graft thrombectomy. It should just be about 30 min." Bob is an AA and his shift is up at 3:00. Go to pre-op to pick up pt. and head to room. Pt. is fatty so we decide on GA instead of MAC. Case starts and attending leaves. Surgeon starts bitching about what was stated on schedule. "This is not a simple thrombectomy. I am going to have to do a total revision of this guys graft." I think to myself, there goes lecture and plans with wife (although I do get relieved for 45min to go to lecture, only to come back afterwards). Long story short, I call wife, she cancels plans and I get home at 7:00. Great start to weekend. Residency rules!!!
 
That’s life man. Pretend you’re in the military and just suck it up. They tell you to jump and you say how high. Lose the idea of personal autonomy at least for the first while during residency and it gets easier. The autonomy will come with time and your staff’s exposure to you.

Anyone can have a bad day and flub IV’s. Just ignore everyone and stick them again, or a 3rd time. I had a personal 3-strikes rule and in general as a junior if it took me more than 3 attempts for an epidural, or a line, or a block or whatever, just swallow your pride and ask the staff to do it or give some tips. They will respect you more for having some judgment on when to ask for help and the patient is better off as well.

My main trick was to keep a note on the particularities of each of my staff. Eg. so and so likes sufent not fent, Sevo not Des, tape the fricken epidural this way and place an a-line that way. Each start of the day you check your cheat sheet and do things the way that staff likes it done and they think you’re a superstar and back off a bit because you are doing the thing the “right way” eg their way. When you are alone you can do it the way you want to but for now just see how different people do different things, and pick and choose what you like for when you are out in practice.

CanGas

PS. There really should be no need to “fight” with nurses in the PACU. They like certain narcotics, give it. As long as it does not impact patient care or safety what’s the big deal. The have been doing this for 20 years longer than me, or this is the way that particular department does things, who am I to try and change things (as a peon anyways). As a resident just try to make things go smoothly for everyone. Slick for the OR staff, slick for the surgeons, slick for the PACU nurses. I want everyone to finish a day with me and think how smooth everything went. Now is not the time to rock the boat. When you are staff and a member of the department you can work on it. That said, if you have a strong reason, and feel that something is truly in the best interest of the patient I find that clearly explaining your rational goes a long way to smoothing things over.

Just my 2 cents
 
Thanks for the advice. I'm definitely of the mindset of "they say jump, and I say how high", in that I am a hard worker, efficient, respectful, and I never rock the boat.

Even with this attitude, some basic things (like flubbing IVs) or not so-basic and out of my control can kinda warp my day. I think the cheat sheet on attendings is a great idea.

The PACU nurses and I are usually great, but there are a couple of bad apples: Yesterday it came up because one of them said in front of my attending that I didnt give report (I did), yelled at me in front of a patient calling my attending a *******, and said she wanted me to write for fentanyl IV to "lower the BP" on a patient who denied having any pain (he had a completely non invasive procedure). Given those factors, I refused to write for the fentanyl, and my attending commended me for it, but then told me to give the PACU nurses whatever they want because "doctors can never win the fight against nurses".

Inspiring!

That’s life man. Pretend you’re in the military and just suck it up. They tell you to jump and you say how high. Lose the idea of personal autonomy at least for the first while during residency and it gets easier. The autonomy will come with time and your staff’s exposure to you.

Anyone can have a bad day and flub IV’s. Just ignore everyone and stick them again, or a 3rd time. I had a personal 3-strikes rule and in general as a junior if it took me more than 3 attempts for an epidural, or a line, or a block or whatever, just swallow your pride and ask the staff to do it or give some tips. They will respect you more for having some judgment on when to ask for help and the patient is better off as well.

My main trick was to keep a note on the particularities of each of my staff. Eg. so and so likes sufent not fent, Sevo not Des, tape the fricken epidural this way and place an a-line that way. Each start of the day you check your cheat sheet and do things the way that staff likes it done and they think you’re a superstar and back off a bit because you are doing the thing the “right way” eg their way. When you are alone you can do it the way you want to but for now just see how different people do different things, and pick and choose what you like for when you are out in practice.

CanGas

PS. There really should be no need to “fight” with nurses in the PACU. They like certain narcotics, give it. As long as it does not impact patient care or safety what’s the big deal. The have been doing this for 20 years longer than me, or this is the way that particular department does things, who am I to try and change things (as a peon anyways). As a resident just try to make things go smoothly for everyone. Slick for the OR staff, slick for the surgeons, slick for the PACU nurses. I want everyone to finish a day with me and think how smooth everything went. Now is not the time to rock the boat. When you are staff and a member of the department you can work on it. That said, if you have a strong reason, and feel that something is truly in the best interest of the patient I find that clearly explaining your rational goes a long way to smoothing things over.

Just my 2 cents
 
Good, with that attitude you will do well.

Everyone flubs IV's. I'm an R5. I've been doing locums this past year of residency during vacation time. Started at a new hospital where they have these bloody sharp IV's where you feel no "pop" when you get in the vein. I was blowing up to 2-3 IV's on nearly EVERY SINGLE patient for the first week or 2 until I got a feeling for them. Just swallow your pride, don't let it phase you and keep going. You are generally judging yourself much harder than the others are.

As for the nurses. Keep it professional. I guarantee you that others have the same problems with this nurse. Never say anything in front of witnesses or the patient (just makes the conflict worse) but after the event take the nurse aside privately and say something like "You may disagree with me or someone else but as co-workers we all deserve to be treated with respect. If you have something to say to me I would appreciate it if in the future you take me aside privately and we can address it then." This shows you are a class act and most people will respect you for it. If this is a chronic issue, start writing down examples of it and then professionally take it to your program director to address with the nurse in charge. Don't make it just a pissing contest but say something like "it is giving the hospital and the department of anesthesia a bad image in the eyes of the patients and should a patient have had a bad outcome and then hear a nurse call the anesthesiologist a "*******" it may increase the risk of being sued". They will generally act on this.

As for stupid order requests. Just stay calm and politely start asking the nurse questions. What are you concerned about the patients blood pressure? What is the patients usual blood pressure? Does the patient have any symptoms currently with the pressure? What do you think is causing the increased blood pressure? The patient currently says he has no pain, how do you think the fentanyl will help with the blood pressure? And if you also think the pressure needs to be address: Do you think Labetalol (or something else) would work better than fentanyl? Ask these questions with a straight face and with a genuine interested tone of voice and the answers will give you ammunition to point out the errors in thinking and address them. Generally, the person realizes themselves that they are wrong and you don't even have to say anything. Again, you come out smelling like a rose instead of wading into the crap with them.

Politics, something they don't teach you in Med school.

CanGas

Thanks for the advice. I'm definitely of the mindset of "they say jump, and I say how high", in that I am a hard worker, efficient, respectful, and I never rock the boat.

Even with this attitude, some basic things (like flubbing IVs) or not so-basic and out of my control can kinda warp my day. I think the cheat sheet on attendings is a great idea.

The PACU nurses and I are usually great, but there are a couple of bad apples: Yesterday it came up because one of them said in front of my attending that I didnt give report (I did), yelled at me in front of a patient calling my attending a *******, and said she wanted me to write for fentanyl IV to "lower the BP" on a patient who denied having any pain (he had a completely non invasive procedure). Given those factors, I refused to write for the fentanyl, and my attending commended me for it, but then told me to give the PACU nurses whatever they want because "doctors can never win the fight against nurses".

Inspiring!
 
IVs can be very difficult @ times. Don't loose your cool Get help early so you don't delay getting your case back to the room.

Cambie
 
Given those factors, I refused to write for the fentanyl, and my attending commended me for it, but then told me to give the PACU nurses whatever they want because "doctors can never win the fight against nurses".

You have to understand something. A patient who moves or complains or tries to get out of bed or otherwise distracts a nurse from sitting her fat ass in a chair, eating a donut, and surfing the internet is a problem for her. The easiest patient for a nurse is one who's sedated, intubated, and paralyzed. If they actually have to take care of someone, they complain. This is couched in "the patient is in pain", or "the patient is at risk of hurting him/herself", or "this patient is all over the place and is going to pull his IV out."

Actual patient interest in safety and comfort is a far-distant second to the nurse's own. Many nurses believe that patients are actually in the hospital to receive nursing care, not to get better and go home. You will run into this misperception time and time again throughout your career. An agitated, moving, or otherwise non-obtunded patient means that the nurse will actually have to do her job. And, they usually don't like this.

-copro
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-396258/Are-nurses-angels-I-dont-think-so.html

Brilliant article from the UK.

You have to understand something. A patient who moves or complains or tries to get out of bed or otherwise distracts a nurse from sitting her fat ass in a chair, eating a donut, and surfing the internet is a problem for her. The easiest patient for a nurse is one who's sedated, intubated, and paralyzed. If they actually have to take care of someone, they complain. This is couched in "the patient is in pain", or "the patient is at risk of hurting him/herself", or "this patient is all over the place and is going to pull his IV out."

Actual patient interest in safety and comfort is a far-distant second to the nurse's own. Many nurses believe that patients are actually in the hospital to receive nursing care, not to get better and go home. You will run into this misperception time and time again throughout your career. An agitated, moving, or otherwise non-obtunded patient means that the nurse will actually have to do her job. And, they usually don't like this.

-copro
 

Yeah, fortunately this article doesn't represent all nurses, though. There are some who are, quite simply, awesome. In this first group, there are ones that I trust and listen to and respond to quickly because they don't waste my time with trivial things. When the come get me, it's because something desperately needs attending to. They don't interupt rounds with insignificant "clerical" order requests. They ask cogent questions. They are interested in the patient. They want to do a good job. Most of these nurses, I've found, are with rare exception over the age of 45.

Group 2 sees themselves as the "new" breed, and empowered. When they don't want to do something or don't understand something, they often state that they are "advocating for the patient." This essentially means that they disagree with your plan, and they have been given the right to refuse your order. This, in my estimation, is the biggest problem with modern-day nursing - the so-called "proactive" nurse. They follow protocols, and if you do something they perceive to be outside the protocol they will refuse to implement it. This can delay effective treatments and the real irony is that they are doing exactly the opposite of "advocating for their patient." With rare exception, most of these nurses are under the age of 25. They rarely care about what you think, say, order, or do. They are going to deliver care how they see fit, sometimes including things like "forgetting" to give a medicine they don't believe a patient needs or titrating pressors or other meds you've told them not to titrate. The scariest part about them is that they often have no idea what the longterm consequences of their actions may be. They just care about the numbers they've been told to chase in nursing school. I've seen brittle CHF patients on fluid restriction get bolused when their urine output drops (etc.) despite no order being there to do so. It's madness.

The third group seems to be those falling in the age range of 25-45 and are a mixed bag. The better ones want a reason why you want to do something. The worse ones form opinions about you quickly, mock you (either behind your back or to your face), and generally feel an impunity to any redress. Why? Because there's a huge nursing shortage and they feel like they can say or do whatever they want without fear of job, or worse, licensure loss. It's not just me, as a resident, either. I see the same general disrespect and disregard for the attendings.

Bottom line is that nurses have WAY too much power these days. And, they always have a Vice President of Nursing Administration in the hospital who's going to undoubtedly side with them over you. Who do I blame for this? I blame JCAHO and plaintiff's attorneys who put them on the hook of "blame diffusion" and "shared responsibility" in patient care. It's one of the other ways that effective patient care is being ruined by a crazy system that wants to marginalize and protocolize the delivery of healthcare to the point that it becomes most cost-effective, with the patient ultimately becoming secondary in the process.

(Yes, I had a sh*tty day today including an argument with a "Group 2" nurse as described above.)

-copro
 
Interesting thoughts, cop.

The union(s) in our hospital seem to significant clout, too.

dc

Oh, yes. Good point. The unions are a problem, too. Unions are only a good solution if the party unionized has no other means of establishing representation. In the current nursing job market, it's a bit like eating your cake and having it too.

-copro
 
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