Discussion: Will EMS Help My Medical School Application?

docB · Jul 22, 2006

This forum frequently gets questions along the lines of Im a pre med. Should I go get an EMT cert to boost my application or do research or shadowing instead? To try to answer these questions, some time back, I wrote a FAQ page entitled "Will EMS Help My Med School Application? I put forward a few ideas which I still believe to be true:

There are better ways to enhance a medical school application than by training and experience in EMS.
EMS is its own distinct, challenging and rewarding profession. For med school hopefuls to treat it as an extracurricular activity such as volunteering or shadowing diminishes that profession.
Students who take up training slots to get EMS credentials only for the sake of applying to med school are displacing other students looking to embark on careers in EMS.

Surprisingly (to me) this FAQ has become quite controversial. Many users have posted rebuttals usually describing how valuable the experience was for them as they began their clinical clerkships in medical school. Let me reiterate the scope of my assertions:

I am not saying EMS is not valuable. I am saying that for pre meds looking to enhance their applications EMS is a time consuming commitment that will not factor into a medical school acceptance as much as better grades and MCAT scores.
I am not saying that those in EMS who decide to go to medical school will not have some advantages. I am specifically talking about pre meds looking around for ways to buff up an application.
EMS experience does help once in medical school. It just does not make up for lower grades and scores when trying to get accepted to medical school.
EMS experience may help when it comes to getting particular residencies such as Emergency Medicine. Thats not the same is getting into medical school in the first place.

Some of this is summed up in a reply I wrote to the discussion on the front page article:

Most of the negative comments are due to people misunderstanding the intent of the article. This piece was originally written as a FAQ page for the EMS forum on SDN. It was intended to head off the very frequently asked question Should I get an EMS cert to help my chances of getting into medical school? I stand by my assertion that for students with the ultimate goal of going to med school investing time in EMS solely to enhance their CV is not the way to go. That time would be better spent in other ways and it takes up a spot in EMS training that could otherwise be used by someone who intends to practice EMS. Realize that I am talking about those who are on the med school track and looking for CV padding. Im not talking about people (like me) who got into EMS to practice EMS and then decided to go into medicine. I have a very high opinion of EMS and I am the medical director for an EMS training program teaching all levels, FR through EMT-P. I would think we can all agree that directing pre-meds with no goals other than CV building and med school acceptance into EMS training cheats them, the system and the legitimate students they displace.

Because this topic has generated so much discussion that it is detracting from the FAQ I am going to move the original post into the general FAQ thread. I will move the discussion posts from the FAQ into this thread and sticky this thread for as long as it stays active. Im going to leave the various other threads that discuss the same topic (links below) as separate threads. Use the links to peruse them at your leisure. Use this thread to discuss this issue and all the differing viewpoints.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=529768

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=538690

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=528683

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=482714

http://www.studentdoctor.net/blog/2008/01/09/forum-flashback-should-i-become-an-emt/

As always, good luck to everyone in their educational and professional goals and if you're on the streets stay safe.

viostorm · Dec 22, 2007

I'd also suggest we add "Should I become a paramedic for medical school?"

I'll pass on a post that really spoke to me and I copied it, but I can no longer tell who originally wrote it.

My advice is similar to DocB's, if you want to be a paramedic do it, but don't do it because you think it will help you get into medical school

---------------------------------

??? said:
This post is directed at the original poster, but applies to traditional undergrads as well. Anyway,
I'm assuming you're an EMT-B already, since that is usually a mandatory pre-requisite to becoming a paramedic (though this might be different in other states). Great, you got a head start on your med school hopeful peers, you don't really know too much as an EMT-B so you still have a healthy appreciation that you don't know very much about medicine. Believe it or not this is a wonderful place to be. I strongly advise you to stop right there (at EMT-B) and devote yourself entirely to becoming a physician.

Here's why:
EMS is a bit of a trap, you can get all caught up in it, because you are enjoying what you are doing, helping others, taking care of emergencies, etc. It's a good high when things go really right. Then you meet a paramedic, and think to yourself: boy can this guy take care of business, I'd really love to be able to do all that great stuff too! But there is really not that much to being a paramedic. Unfortunately nobody really tells you this. IN your world, all these new skills are exciting and impressive, So then things start to take a turn in your life. Let me tell you a little about what I mean:

Paramedics are funny people, they are experts in a very, very, narrow slice of medicine. In fact, when it comes down to the business of prehospital emergency care, nobody does it like a medic. WOW, I think I want to do this medic thing, I'm going to go for it, atleast for now, until I go to med school next year. BUT, you can easily get all caught up in the ALS pre-hospital care scene. Because you are doing life saving interventions you may feel like you fast forwarded yourself to "doctor" or at least the preconceived notion you had of doctors before you ever got involved in medicine. So anyway, there you'll be doing all these great skills, and soon you'll start to think that gee-whiz look at all the great things that I can do as a medic (ha! nurses my ass, they can't do this stuff!). Heck, all that other stuff in medicine really is not as important as this stuff I'm doing right now (IVs, intubation and pacing oh my!), and that's when you start to make a very big mistake. All of a sudden you really stop caring about all the other things that medicine has to offer, so you stop learning about anything that doesn't have anything to do with the "important stuff". Now depending on how long this lasts you can piss away 4,5,6 years doing EMS work and be totally satisfied. But then something happens, it can be some job that went bad on you or you come across something you've never been prepared to deal with, or any other number of things that cause you to become reflective about yourself as a professional. So then you start to read again and you once again rediscover that there is a whole world of medical knowledge out there you weren't aware of as a medic. So now you're studying again and learning about the things you didn't know, but you are never able to do it in any coherent way. The sheer volume of the material is intimidating and you have no real way of knowing if you are making any progress. Plus you are surrounded by your peers, fellow paramedic professionals who tell you things like who the heck cares about temporal arteritis, that's not important and what the heck is so important about this pancreatic psuedocyst you speak of??? So now you start to get frustrated, and you look around at the people around you who are very content with being medics and knowing what medics know, and incorrectly equating their skill proficiency with medical knowledge. But not you. You start to remember that you wanted to be a doctor, and you look back and say, how the **** did I get here, this isn't what I wanted for myself professionally or personally. This whole medic thing was supposed to be a stepping stone to becoming a physician. You become, really frustrated, pissed off, burnt out and then to add insult to injury you start to realize that you are wildly underpaid for the work you are doing. Nurses don't have to put up with 1/2 the crap that I do and they get paid 3 times as much, plus I know a hell of alot more! That's the last straw, F-this you say, I'm going back to school. Only now you are well into your mid- late 20's, (in your case, mid-late 30's) maybe you got a mortgage, a big monthly car payment, who knows maybe a wife and kids in private school, your Golden Opportunity to become a physician is now well past you. You now must suffer in new and interesting ways to get to where you wanted to be in the first place. So sacrifices and painful choices are made and finally 7-8 years later you are back on track for the MD, older, a little more worn out, less enthusiastic, but hopefully a little wiser. Maybe.

So the question is, are you absolutely, positively sure that being a medic is what you want? Think long and hard about this, this is your life afterall. That being said, you gotta do what you gotta do, if you are supporting your whole family or you are on your own out there I can understand. But think about this seriously think about this. This is a long post, but I did not make all of this stuff up, I speak to you from my experience. There are alot of other things I can go into, all sorts of crazy stuff that you'll be banging your head against, but I think I'd be writing for days and days. Anyway best of luck, you can always drop me a PM if you have any specific questions.

leviathan · Dec 27, 2007

Basically, the almost universal opinion is to only go into EMS if you would consider it as something you would enjoy separate from medicine. Otherwise, the pros/cons do not really balance in your favour, and there are other things to invest your time in which will better help your success with getting into medical school.

MichiganEMTInt · Mar 7, 2008

Anyone reading this thread should check this article out...

It's simple. Don't do it for your application. Smart applicants will know that nothing comes before GPA and MCAT. Once adcoms get past those (and believe me, you are nothing without competitive scores) you can show dedication to health care and patients by working in EMS, maybe, if you are asked about it during an interview. It does virtually nothing by itself on paper if they don't know more about it. Maybe you just went through the motions and did your NREMT testing and never used your license.

Why should someones laziness and superficial activities earn you a spot in medical school over a paid/nonpaid EMT who put in hundreds of hours of exhausting work to improve the quality of life of his/her patients?

Squad51 · Mar 14, 2008

Foughtfyr and OSUDoc (two former members) posted some pretty strong opinions on the subject in this thread http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=254483

FoughtFyr said:
I loved being an EMT (and a paramedic) but, as a former paramedic instructor, Adcom member, and now EM resident, I can tell you it won't help you get in...

{insert wavy lines fadeout here}

I was a paramedic instructor at a medical center directly affiliated with a medical school. As such, I was asked to teach the third year students "ward skills", e.g., how to defibrillate, start IVs, etc. I would have done so happily, except I had recieved a rejection letter (before interview) the day before! Yep, I can teach there - just can't go there! And not even a courtesy interview...

Even better - the next year when I was teaching an EMT-B course at another facility, I gave my usual talk on "not using an EMT cert. as a tool to get into medical school as I've been a paramedic for years and can't get in", and I had two students who were in the post-bac program at the school that rejected me. They said "that's nothing, one of our teachers told us about a paramedic who got asked to teach ward skills to our M3 class the day after he got a rejection letter from our school. (The teacher) told us that just goes to show how ridiculous the admissions process is..." I wish I had a camera when I confirmed the story firsthand - their faces were classic!

Apparently, word of my story got around. I really would have loved to be a fly on the wall at that adcom meeting.

{insert wavy lines fadeout here}

- H

Then OSU responded:

OSUdoc08 said:
I completely disagree with this. EMS experience is invaluable. There is no reason why this person should not get EMS experience. I always recieved higher grades while I was doing my EMS training, so that is not an excuse.

To which Foughtfyr said:

FoughtFyr said:
Sorry that you disagree but I think the point is that few (if any) adcoms will give EMS providers preference. So, if the ONLY reason for taking EMS training to to buff your CV for medical school admit - don't do it. If you want a great experience that will educate you on a wide variety of patient care issues and in my opinion make you a better doctor (eventually) then take the training by all means. I guess the difference is in the motivation...

- H

And the last exchange on the topic began:

OSUdoc08 said:
I was asked to discuss my EMS experience in all 4 medical school interviews that I completed.

and ended:

FoughtFyr said:
As was I, but I didn't get in initially, despite 8 years of FF/EMT-P. When later on an Adcom no preference was given to EMS professionals over that given to anyone with any other job. When I asked "why?", I was told, essentially, that "anyone" could do EMS (they cited local volunteer ALS EMS squads as evidence) and that there was no academic rigor to EMS programs (again, citing a lack of collegiate pre-reqs). Additionally, several members felt that 'medics were "too cocky to train" and others felt that "most applicants with an EMT certificate just got (the cert) to try and get in here". In short, no real love for the EMS folks. Since then I've talked to other residents who served on Adcoms at their medical schools, I've yet to find one that "pref"ed EMS providers.

I've got to believe (again, from my experience) that if your personal statement or application discussed your summer job making candy on Mackinac Island that would have been discussed in all of the medical school interviews you completed. EMS was most certainly a big part of your application, so what else should have been discussed?

Look, I am not saying that EMS experience isn't useful to a medical education. It is - very. What I am saying is that if the OP, or anyone else, is taking an EMS course solely to improve their CV, it won't meet that goal any better than would any other job.

- H

It is the same at my school. EMS personnel receive no admissions preference beyond that given to anyone who had a job prior to their studies. Does it help in clinical rotations - absolutely! In residency - probably, ask me next year. But for admission? Not one bit.

RockfordWF · Mar 14, 2008

Squad51 said:
Foughtfyr and OSUDoc (two former members) posted some pretty strong opinions on the subject in this thread http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=254483

Then OSU responded:

To which Foughtfyr said:

And the last exchange on the topic began:

and ended:

It is the same at my school. EMS personnel receive no admissions preference beyond that given to anyone who had a job prior to their studies. Does it help in clinical rotations - absolutely! In residency - probably, ask me next year. But for admission? Not one bit.

It DOES help your application in the fact that some medical schools give preferential treatment to applicants who have medical experience. There ARE other ways to get medical experience, however.

If you are planning on going into emergency medicine, however, it DOES help on residency applications---especially if you were a paramedic...

paramedic1978 · Apr 23, 2008

As a paramedic for 7 years, I would say most EMS professionals would be offended by the statement up above that says, "But there is really not that much to being a paramedic." Give me a break! Not everyone can do the profession. Having to think in an instant, calculate dosages in your head, thinking about the pathophysiology of acid base balance during a critical interfacility transfer; all of this is important to a paramedic. We have to know this stuff off the top of our head. I'm not knocking nurses, but they have orders written on a chart. When I was going through paramedic clinicals, I was with some med students. I was answering all the questions the ER resident was asking, not the med students.

I agree that becoming an EMT for the sole purpose of application material is not enough. You have to actually work the streets to show your passion to care for sick/injured people. As for med school applications; most D.O. schools love to see healthcare professionals. I'm not sure about the MD's, but the DO's require you to have some type of volunteer or paid work in a healthcare setting. I do agree that in order to get accepted, you better have a good GPA and MCAT score. Being a healthcare professional is just icing on the cake.

viostorm said:
I'd also suggest we add "Should I become a paramedic for medical school?"

I'll pass on a post that really spoke to me and I copied it, but I can no longer tell who originally wrote it.

My advice is similar to DocB's, if you want to be a paramedic do it, but don't do it because you think it will help you get into medical school

---------------------------------

psychbender · Apr 23, 2008

paramedic1978 said:
As a paramedic for 7 years, I would say most EMS professionals would be offended by the statement up above that says, "But there is really not that much to being a paramedic." Give me a break! Not everyone can do the profession. Having to think in an instant, calculate dosages in your head, thinking about the pathophysiology of acid base balance during a critical interfacility transfer; all of this is important to a paramedic. We have to know this stuff off the top of our head. I'm not knocking nurses, but they have orders written on a chart. When I was going through paramedic clinicals, I was with some med students. I was answering all the questions the ER resident was asking, not the med students.

Pathophys of acid-base balance? What the hell kind of transfers are you doing that you need to do that? The paragods in your area must really live up to that name; many in my state have a hard time just dealing with what an acid or base is (ok, that was a little harsh).

For the record and topic: I am a paramedic and have been involved in EMS and prehospital care for about 7 years. It may have helped getting accepted, but largely because it showed that I could handle a lot of extra obligations while maintaining a good GPA with a heavy courseload (and, thus, could probably handle medical school). In med school itself, prior experience helps most with being able to quickly take a focused history and present it to the attending or resident. I was also more comfortable with seeing actual patients and doing things than some of my classmates. During the first two years, it wasn't terribly helpful, other than knowing the basics of certain medications and disorders, and knowing some simple treatment algorithms (like ACLS).

docB · Apr 23, 2008

There has been a lot of negative feedback on my position on this. More on the front page article than here. I absolutely stand by my comments. However, since so many have misunderstood I will try to clarify.

Many people have volunteered along the lines of "I'm a medic and it helped me get in." and "I'm a medic and it helped me in clinicals." or even "I'm a medic and it helped my get an EM residency." Fine and dandy. Not my point.

My point is, has always been and remains: You should not become an EMT only for the purpose of padding your application for med school.

I and other attendings, both on SDN and IRL, field lots of questions like the following.
-Should I become an EMT or a paramedic to look good for the ad com. (This was a student who didn't even know that you become an EMT first. He thought they were two different schools.)
-Will an EMT make up for a C in chemistry?
-If I do poorly on the MCAT I'll become a paramedic to make up for it. But if I take the MCAT as a college junior I'll only have 1 year to do it. Should I take the MCAT early?
-If I become a paramedic do I get to skip a year of med school?

Clearly none of those people are interested in EMS beyond how it will affect their applications. I maintain that for a person to get trained in EMS for the singular purpose of going to med school is a disservice to the field of EMS, to the students they displaced and to themselves.

viostorm · Apr 23, 2008

paramedic1978 said:
As a paramedic for 7 years, I would say most EMS professionals would be offended by the statement up above that says, "But there is really not that much to being a paramedic."

I didn't make the original statment, but, its a 2 year associate degree and some places only give you a "certificate of completion" ... there really isn't all that much to being a paramedic ... sorry.

It doesn't mean the job isn't an important one, however, when it comes right down to it find a study that shows ALS is better then BLS. I'll tell you now they are few and far between. In fact, many show the opposite ... patients almost universally do better with BLS and AED's. If you want we can debate this in a different thread.

I'm speaking as a current/former CCEMT-P, PNCCT, NREMT-P now in medical school involved in EMS since 1996.

I agree with DocB 100%, don't become a paramedic because you think it will help you get in or think it will help prepare you. In fact, in my area being a paramedic may be a disadvantage because the medical students who went through were arrogant and alienated many of the faculty.

psychbender · Apr 23, 2008

docB said:
Clearly none of those people are interested in EMS beyond how it will affect their applications. I maintain that for a person to get trained in EMS for the singular purpose of going to med school is a disservice to the field of EMS, to the students they displaced and to themselves.

They do provide a common point of annoyance, which can serve to unite erstwhile enemies, though.

kevinm · Apr 29, 2008

I'm currently a student in a 4-year engineering school, and over the course of the last two years, I completed a paramedic program at my local community college at night (a full-time student at two colleges...)

To be honest, after completing my EMT-Basic certification and working for a year in a very active region (EMT-Basics do 911 calls here as well as inter-facility transports), I had thought that becoming a paramedic would "look better" to medical schools. So, and to the chagrin of every advisor with whom I spoke, I enrolled in an evening certificate program.

Here's how my day went for the better part of two years:
10am-4pm: Electrical Engineering classes
6pm-10pm: Paramedic classes
10pm-2am: Studying for both

This routine continued four days a week. And that was just the course work. After one semester of that, I had to start my clinical time, which was just 8 hours a week (Friday nights) for the semester. Summer break finally came, and that was where the bulk of the clinical time occurred. We had to do ~400 hours in a trauma center in various departments (ER, L&D, dialysis, OR, psych, etc...). So for about a month, I was doing 16 hour days at the hospital. Finally, the ride time (the internship phase) began... on paper, it's 376 hours of time on an ambulance, but in reality, we had to achieve a certain number of calls (two field intubations, 20 pediatric respiratory distress calls, etc...). As anyone who's been in EMS for a while can attest, you can't expect all these calls to occur within a 376 hour chunk. So multiply that number by two, and that's about how long it took me.

That's when I thought I was done.. but, throw in ACLS, PALS, and PHTLS.

However, the experience I've gained, the people I've met, and the effect I can have on others is the reason I've kept my head up and pushed myself through. This is not at all something I'd recommend aspiring doctors to do...as many have said before, being a paramedic is a career choice--it's not meant to be a part time job. It's something you have to really, really, really want.

Honestly, anyone on these forums can probably complete the coursework... it's not too to understand. Even the clinical time isn't too bad. However, just earning the certification and doing nothing with it is a complete waste. It's the experience that matters--everything you learn in paramedic school will be taught in greater detail in medical school, so there's really no benefit to "starting early" by enrolling in a paramedic program just for the resume boost. If it's the experience you're after, by all means go for it. But please, please take a year off of your undergraduate studies to properly complete the program. Paramedic school cannot be an extra-curricular activity.

deleted92121 · Apr 30, 2008

I am a fourth-year senior majoring in Psychology. I have a checkered academic history with some retakes and W's on my transcript, mostly in science classes. I managed to let things in life get to me and affect my performance. I do however have decent research and numerous leadership roles on my transcript. I am at best a mediocre student on paper however due to academic performance.

However, I am an EMT-B and am currently finishing my Paramedic (< 2 mos to go). I love EMS for the job itself. Yes, it is possible to get caught up in all the ALS/PALS/ACLS procedures and calls. But, it is an excellent opportunity to provide meaningful patient care. I love what I do and it will always be a part of me.

I hope that by working as a Paramedic and strengthening my application, along with a post-bac and decent MCAT, it will make me more attractive to medical schools. I don't want this to be a stepping stone, it is something completely different. It is a whole other beast.

So in the next few couple years I will find out how much being involved in EMS really helps...and will keep you posted!

dxu

MedicJ · Jun 25, 2008

This thread blows my mind. I have been a medic for almost 8 years(in a VERY busy area) and can't even imagine anyone being able to deal with this job if he/she didn't have it in the heart. Emt or paramedic just to put it on an application??!?!!??!
I LOVE my job. People don't last with this type of work if they don't want to be here.
Just for an application?!?!?! Yeeeaaaa..... I want updates on how this works out for them.

icevermin · Jul 8, 2008

I didn't read all the posts but I read a good number of them and I can say this... I am pretty damn scared!

I began volunteering in EMS as a First Responder just about a year ago (I just graduated high school). I am currently enrolled in an EMT-B class because I felt at the time when I enrolled it would grant me invaluable experience in the pre-hospital setting and hospital care setting. Moreover I also felt that volunteering as an EMT-B would provide me with excellent experience in the patient care field as well as critical thinking and teamwork alongside of providing stories to tell for medical school interviews. I did not begin to just "Buff up my cv (which I don't even know what it stands for by the way)."

After reading a good number of posts there is a genuine fear in me that all this hard-work I'm putting into my volunteer organization is going to be for waste. I did this initially to "buff up my CV" but then I really began to like it. I can affirm this much without hesitation: my childhood dream is to be a doctor and regardless of how different these two fields are I promised myself that I WILL achieve my dream.

Am I actually wasting my time? I'm so scared and disillusioned from volunteering now

docB · Jul 8, 2008

Im still trying to figure out exactly what youre saying about why you got into EMS:

icevermin said:
I did not begin to just "Buff up my cv (which I don't even know what it stands for by the way)."

icevermin said:
I did this initially to "buff up my CV" but then I really began to like it.

I would go with the parts about exposure to medicine and critical thinking during interviews. CV stands for curriculum vitae which is a resume in the medical and academic world.

Do I think you are wasting your time? No. Do I think you should quit volunteering? Not if you like doing it and its not hurting your grades and cutting into your MCAT study time.

You have already gotten down the road a good piece in EMS and that will be of benefit to you going forward.

The point of this thread is that we get lots of questions from people who want to know if becoming an EMT will get them into medical school. The answer remains that it does help but not as much as getting better grades and MCAT scores. If you are thinking of entering EMS training because your ultimate goal is medical school you would be better served by devoting that time and effort to studying and leaving the field of EMS to those who want careers in EMS.

This thread was made into a front page article and there was a similar discussion there for anyone who is interested:Front page article
This is my bit toward the end to address all the folks who posted that they felt that their EMS experience was really valuable:

Most of the negative comments are due to people misunderstanding the intent of the article. This piece was originally written as a FAQ page for the EMS forum on SDN. It was intended to head off the very frequently asked question Should I get an EMS cert to help my chances of getting into medical school? I stand by my assertion that for students with the ultimate goal of going to med school investing time in EMS solely to enhance their CV is not the way to go. That time would be better spent in other ways and it takes up a spot in EMS training that could otherwise be used by someone who intends to practice EMS. Realize that I am talking about those who are on the med school track and looking for CV padding. Im not talking about people (like me) who got into EMS to practice EMS and then decided to go into medicine. I have a very high opinion of EMS and I am the medical director for an EMS training program teaching all levels, FR through EMT-P. I would think we can all agree that directing pre-meds with no goals other than CV building and med school acceptance into EMS training cheats them, the system and the legitimate students they displace.

icevermin · Jul 8, 2008

When I first began volunteering EMS, I did it to boost my CV (one year ago).

However, when I made the decision to take an EMT class, I did it for the aforementioned reasons, not to boost my CV.

Also I'm just entering college.

icevermin · Jul 8, 2008

Also I ask a lot of medics and other EMTs who have been in the field for a while (one of the EMTs at my Squad is also a Nurse who used to work at Muhlenberg Hospital in Plainfield NJ before the shut down) and they all assert it's an invaluable asset to any pre-med person.

There have been a few people from my squad that actually did go on to medical school too but they didn't have too hot GPA nor MCAT scores...

leviathan · Jul 9, 2008

icevermin said:
Also I ask a lot of medics and other EMTs who have been in the field for a while (one of the EMTs at my Squad is also a Nurse who used to work at Muhlenberg Hospital in Plainfield NJ before the shut down) and they all assert it's an invaluable asset to any pre-med person.

This is what I think, in as much of a nutshell as I can manage:

Somewhat helpful: Paramedic level of training (1.5-2 years), and 2-3+ years of experience in a high-call volume 911 system where ALS is limited and only responds to sick patients.

Not that helpful: 120 hour EMT course with little to no actual experience in a 911 system

viostorm · Jul 15, 2008

icevermin said:
invaluable asset to any pre-med person.

There are outstanding physicians that have never seen the back of an ambulance and it certainly is not a pre-requisite or "invaluable" for being a physician.

The fact of the matter is picking someone up and putting them in the back of the ambulance and driving to the hospital teaches very little about actual medicine. The thing that teaches medicine is "medical school" and "residency."

So I've given a few meds and intubated a few people earlier in my career ... it won't mean I'm any more qualified or competent then then any of my collegues to act as a physician.

The time that was spent as an EMT/Paramedic could have been used for some other "invaluable" experience ... research, doing better in classes, volunteering in some other aspect.

The simple fact is that when it comes to medical school admission there are two things that make or break you, your GPA and MCAT. The rest is icing on the cake.

My advice to premeds if you like EMS and want a taste, EMT is fine. In fact, its a fun experience. Don't let it interfere with your ability to do well in classes or mcat and don't think it will mean jack on your application other then 2 minutes of "tell me about your EMT experience?" during your interview. That 2 minutes could have just as easily been filled with "tell me about volunteering in Dr. X's clinic" or "tell me about your research to cure cancer"

viostorm · Jul 15, 2008

leviathan said:
Somewhat helpful: Paramedic level of training (1.5-2 years), and 2-3+ years of experience in a high-call volume 911 system where ALS is limited and only responds to sick patients.

This is helpful for a career paramedic. Absolute waste of time for a physician.

charrua · Jul 25, 2008

My brother-in-law is a very successful emergency physician in Minnesota and he does interviews for med students competing for a residency position at the hospital. He told me that he has personally voted for acceptance of 2 students that had been paramedics for a few years prior to med school. He believes that their experience added to their character and that those students already had an understanding of how stressful emergency medicine can be. He is also a big proponent of non-traditional students getting accepted, he believes that nothing can beat a diversified staff. To get an interview he believes that being a paramedic has little or no relevance at all, but might depend on the school you apply, for residency itself he believes that if you are a good qualified candidate, overall good student (and no, he does not believe that straight As are necessary, challenging classes and extra curriculum a most), if you have good character and charisma, he then would rather give the residency position to a previously experience paramedic. He said that the 2 students he knows of by far exceeded expectations; he also said that they were a little older than the rest of the students and probably some of the most committed students. So I guess it all depends where you are applying. But only become a paramedic if you absolutely love it, if not people will be able to tell, the interviewers can see if you truly have passion or not. And being a paramedic might be for whatever reason your life career, so do it only if you love it and have the heart for it.

charrua · Jul 25, 2008

By the way, I am a Biomedical engineer student, love medicine and engineering, so I went for both

I am still not sure if I am going to go for my Masters or apply to med-school.so much to do, so little time.

docB · Jul 25, 2008

charrua said:
My brother-in-law is a very successful emergency physician in Minnesota and he does interviews for med students competing for a residency position at the hospital. He told me that he has personally voted for acceptance of 2 students that had been paramedics for a few years prior to med school. He believes that their experience added to their character and that those students already had an understanding of how stressful emergency medicine can be. He is also a big proponent of non-traditional students getting accepted, he believes that nothing can beat a diversified staff. To get an interview he believes that being a paramedic has little or no relevance at all, but might depend on the school you apply, for residency itself he believes that if you are a good qualified candidate, overall good student (and no, he does not believe that straight As are necessary, challenging classes and extra curriculum a most), if you have good character and charisma, he then would rather give the residency position to a previously experience paramedic. He said that the 2 students he knows of by far exceeded expectations; he also said that they were a little older than the rest of the students and probably some of the most committed students. So I guess it all depends where you are applying. But only become a paramedic if you absolutely love it, if not people will be able to tell, the interviewers can see if you truly have passion or not. And being a paramedic might be for whatever reason your life career, so do it only if you love it and have the heart for it.

You are confusing medical school applications with the residency selection process. Sometimes when you put two otherwise equal residency (or even medical school) candidates up against each other the person with EMS experience will come out on top. There are also times when it can be a negative in residency selection as there are a few docs out there who still have little respect and even some animosity toward EMS. It usually won't be a negative for med school selection as many of the PhD biology types on ad coms don't know what EMS is or does.

But that's for two otherwise equal candidates. If one took time out to get some EMS credentials just to prop up their application it's very likely their grades and scores will have suffered. In that case the EMS won't make up for the basics.

And again I'm not talking about non-traditional students who, by definition, were in another career like EMS and then decided to go into medicine. I'm talking about people who are headed into medicine and looking for ways to bolster their apps. Those are the people I'm saying should study harder, take an MCAT course or do some research rather than get into EMS.

kevinm · Aug 8, 2008

viostorm said:
The time that was spent as an EMT/Paramedic could have been used for some other "invaluable" experience ... research, doing better in classes, volunteering in some other aspect.

The simple fact is that when it comes to medical school admission there are two things that make or break you, your GPA and MCAT. The rest is icing on the cake.

My advice to premeds if you like EMS and want a taste, EMT is fine. In fact, its a fun experience. Don't let it interfere with your ability to do well in classes or mcat and don't think it will mean jack on your application other then 2 minutes of "tell me about your EMT experience?" during your interview. That 2 minutes could have just as easily been filled with "tell me about volunteering in Dr. X's clinic" or "tell me about your research to cure cancer"

I would hope that being an EMT-Paramedic is a lot different than volunteering in a clinic or doing research. The responsibilities that come with being a paramedic vastly differ from those associated with an EMT-Basic's job... as I said earlier, it's a career choice. I honestly think that becoming a paramedic shows a commitment to and a passion for medicine. If nothing else, it shows that you were willing to deal with a horrible salary, terrible hours, and a pretty miserable work environment (come on, who's really going to argue that being on a fatal car accident scene in the middle of winter at 3am during a blizzard is an ideal working environment?) to help people. I don't think paramedics become paramedics just to drive cars with lights and sirens or to bolster their medical school application. Trust me, paramedic schools are privy to this and they will try their very best to get rid of those individuals who are there for the wrong reasons. I hope that fact alone would separate them from other medical school applicants.

leviathan · Aug 8, 2008

viostorm said:
This is helpful for a career paramedic. Absolute waste of time for a physician.

Waste of time in regards to what? This thread is about getting into medical school, not your performance IN medical school. Although I would still argue that being a paramedic or any health care provider is beneficial to your abilities as a clerk in medical school.

Nicholass · Aug 11, 2008

I am just finishing up high school in Toronto, ontario. I ultimately want to go to medical school, however, I am also interested in paramedicine. At the University of Toronto, they offer a joint degree/diploma in paramedicine with a local college.

This is a four year degree culminating in a BSc Honours degree as well as a diploma in paramedicine.

I would like to work as a paramedic, but also, I will need to take time between my undergrad and med school to earn money to pay for med school so I figure why not do that in between (medics make better money here than in the states). Do you guys think this is a good path to chose? Or would I be better prepared for admissions with a BSc in biomedical sciences or something?

heres a link to the program website:

http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~jtprogs/paramedicine/index.html

thanks!

icevermin · Aug 14, 2008

I think there is a miscommunication here. While you're working/volunteering as an EMT, you aren't just sticking somebody into the back of an ambulance. There's A LOT more at play here than simply packaging a guy and running him to the hospital.

I just finished my EMT class today and I will be taking my state test in ~2 weeks. I'm actually very happy to finally finish this EMT class. Also I'm shadowing a cardiologist so I'm getting a different clinical exposure as well and all I can say is I think it's giving me great insight into what both fields are like, and thus giving me an all around better character than just a guy with a 4.0 and a 45 MCAT you know?

9ECHO1 · Oct 14, 2008

I'm currently in a 2 year Paramedic program and I will graduate this summer. I plan on continuing my education so that I can get my bachelors degree. I did not enter EMS because I wanted something to put on a medical school application. I entered this profession because I wanted to be in a position where I could help people. As I progressed in my program I found myself wanting to learn more and more about medicine. Now I'm at the point where I want to pursue a Medical Degree so that I can see the full spectrum. Don't get involved with EMS if you just want to put it on an app. I certainly would not recommend going all the way to paramedic, if your sole reason for entering healthcare is to be a doctor. For me it all about helping people. I find this field both challenging and exciting, and I will continue to help people as an MD,PA,Paramedic, or what ever. I do think that working as a Paramedic would give you some perspective about your responsibilities as an MD, and that is something you could not get from doing research or shadowing. If you just want to be a doctor then an EMT-Basic cert will be enough as far as experience goes. However, if you have a genuine interest in medicine then I would consider going to at least the EMT-Intermediate level.

So this is how I expect to get into med school
Finish my AAS (emergency medical science)
complete my BS (emergency medical science+premed)
apply to med school
all while working as a Paramedic

I hope that my career as a medic will show that I have a true passion for medicine and that I'm in this field to help people. And that I'm not just someone who wants to be a doctor because they want to please mommy and daddy or earn a big salary. Doing research also shows an interest in the field.

Vicious Koala · Nov 7, 2008

viostorm said:
My advice to premeds if you like EMS and want a taste, EMT is fine. In fact, its a fun experience. Don't let it interfere with your ability to do well in classes or mcat and don't think it will mean jack on your application other then 2 minutes of "tell me about your EMT experience?" during your interview. That 2 minutes could have just as easily been filled with "tell me about volunteering in Dr. X's clinic" or "tell me about your research to cure cancer"

I would hope that adcoms could tell the difference between the experiences of an EMS professional and a hospital volunteer--even with only a two minute blurb.

When I was volunteering in a hospital ER trying to gain clinical experience, I soon realized that I wasn't doing anything. I decided to work in EMS to boost my CV and I can say that its been working out splendidly for about 6 months now. I am an EMT-B doing both 9-11 calls and IFTs working full-time and taking a full load in my senior year of undergrad. I can honestly say that my GPA has not been affected while working. What has been affected, though, are my improved patient assessment skills, rapport, knowledge of pre-hospital care, and, yes, paperwork (billing, transfer forms, redtape bs, etc..)

Although maybe not their intent, I believe that some of the posts above really undermine the value of EMS work versus some of the other "experiences" out there. As I pass through the ER, I see former volunteering colleagues of mine fluffing pillows and fetching water.

I think my icing is better.

COMedic2Doc · Dec 25, 2008

Okay so for a post that may indeed be dead, and for those still wondering about should I or should I not take EMT training? I would most certainly agree not to do this simply to add to your resume, because from what I understand a friend of mine it does get asked about in interviews and yes you are accountable for this experience. For me, I was trying to figure out what direction to take and at a young age decided to become an EMT. My EMT has definitely given me things to face early in my career, i.e. death of patients, issues within medicine, etc. Then in 2005, after Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita, I chose to attend Paramedic school to try and alleviate some debt and because I really enjoyed being an EMT and wanted to help with the shortage of Paramedics on my hazmat/disaster response team. Again, this is a personal choice. However, for me it involved stepping out of college for almost four years while I got some of my "need to save the world" feelings behind me. After being a Paramedic for a short amount of time, I have chosen to return to my bachelor's degree and finish my degree, take the MCAT, apply to medical school and pursue my life-long dream of being a Physician.
Through working full-time as an EMT, it has been a double-edged sword at times in terms of my application profile. It has hurt my GPA at times, caused me to be extremely tired for classes, etc and not have the time that I would have loved. However, as previously mentioned it's also been a benefit because of meeting physicians for LORs, experiences gained, etc. I cannot say whether my experience will help my clerkships or residency years (it's possible, but cannot be verified as a definite, and my ideal residency at this point is not Emergency Medicine it's General Surgery and I have never done surgery as a Paramedic beyond doing a Surgical Cric). All in all, I became a Paramedic and an EMT because I enjoyed doing so and wanted to do so for other reasons beyond enhancing my CV.

docB · Feb 5, 2009

As there have been no additional posts to this discussion thread in over a month I'm going to unstick it and let it run on its own traffic. This way it won't needlessly clutter the board but it will be available on searches. Post as you see fit.

cajunchrisbu · Feb 27, 2009

yes, yes, yes, yes and again yes

it does help, during my interview they were very excited about my EMT training and this is practically all we discussed in one of the interviews. When I received my letter the following week and called to confirm my acceptance the dean of admissions told me that my EMT training and 2 years as an ER tech was what separated me from another applicant with equivalent scores ect. In short the admissions committee loved it

sapama · Nov 26, 2009

Here's how my unconventional path to pre-med came about, please don't bash me for not wanting to be a doctor since I was born

when I was a kid: Wanted to be a vet and an artist

when I was in high school: Got discouraged by thoughts that as a girl I was supposed to have babies and was not smart enough to do medicine, went to college for art

when I was an art teacher: Thought that even though I loved my students I could be doing something more. On a road trip saw an ambulance on the highway which started a long conversation with my hubby about how I always thought it would be an incredible job...

so now I am on this path, knowing that I will love being an EMT but knowing I will be going further.

Is EMT my lifelong career path? No, most I speak to plan on moving on
Will I take the experience for what it is? Yes!
Do I HOPE it will help my application and interviews? Yes!! I guess we'll find out in a few years. Either way it's a life experience. They may not look at being a Studio Art major and teacher as helpful, but I wouldn't take it back for anything.

Dwindlin · Nov 27, 2009

sapama said:
Here's how my unconventional path to pre-med came about, please don't bash me for not wanting to be a doctor since I was born

when I was a kid: Wanted to be a vet and an artist

when I was in high school: Got discouraged by thoughts that as a girl I was supposed to have babies and was not smart enough to do medicine, went to college for art

when I was an art teacher: Thought that even though I loved my students I could be doing something more. On a road trip saw an ambulance on the highway which started a long conversation with my hubby about how I always thought it would be an incredible job...

so now I am on this path, knowing that I will love being an EMT but knowing I will be going further.

Is EMT my lifelong career path? No, most I speak to plan on moving on
Will I take the experience for what it is? Yes!
Do I HOPE it will help my application and interviews? Yes!! I guess we'll find out in a few years. Either way it's a life experience. They may not look at being a Studio Art major and teacher as helpful, but I wouldn't take it back for anything.

Personally I think the uniqueness of your back ground is way more helpful from an adcoms point of view than EMS experience.

Wilderness1 · Dec 9, 2009

Avoid EMS like the plague. I started to get some field trauma experience, and ended up ruining my whole career w/ an unusual series of incidents that FUBAR'd several lumbar and one sacral disc.

Maybe get some sort of pre-hospital cert, like EMT-IV, or I95 and work in a urgi-care.

docB · Dec 9, 2009

Wilderness1 said:
Avoid EMS like the plague. I started to get some field trauma experience, and ended up ruining my whole career w/ an unusual series of incidents that FUBAR'd several lumbar and one sacral disc.

Maybe get some sort of pre-hospital cert, like EMT-IV, or I95 and work in a urgi-care.

That's an interesting point. One of the possible problems with doing EMS to build a med school application in addition to sustaining a career altering injury (back injuries are very common in EMS) is that you could become involved in a malpractice suit. Having to disclose a lawsuit may end your medical career before it starts.

jbar · Dec 9, 2009

My understanding is it's pretty hard to get sued as an EMT. As a medic maybe, but EMTs aren't pushing drugs, aren't really making many decisions. To get sued as an EMT you'd basically have to 1) refuse to take the patient to the hospital, 2) try something beyond your scope of care or 3) crash the ambulance while drunk.

True not beyond the realm of possibility, but the "I didn't get to go to med school because I got sued as a medic" isn't a story that I've heard in the last 9 years.

docB · Dec 10, 2009

jbar said:
My understanding is it's pretty hard to get sued as an EMT. As a medic maybe, but EMTs aren't pushing drugs, aren't really making many decisions. To get sued as an EMT you'd basically have to 1) refuse to take the patient to the hospital, 2) try something beyond your scope of care or 3) crash the ambulance while drunk.

True it's uncommon. But just getting named in a suit or a complaint would be an obstacle. The issues aobut driving are getting more common. You don't have to be drunk. If you get a reckless charge it can be pretty devastating. Again unlikely but not unheard of.

jbar said:
True not beyond the realm of possibility, but the "I didn't get to go to med school because I got sued as a medic" isn't a story that I've heard in the last 9 years.

I just want people to consider these issues. If you get dinged doing EMS because you wanted to do EMS that's one thing. If you get dinged doing EMS just because you wanted to list it on your app that's another.

MCAT guy · Aug 19, 2010

OCDEMS · Apr 24, 2014

Stumbled into this thread by accident. Bump.

My take:

Previous career paramedic. Now medical student. Personally, if myself and the other medics in my class are any consolation, picking a practicing paramedic is a relatively guaranteed way to get a good performing medical student.

I found the transition to the question style common in the preclinical years to be fairly seamless. Clinical vignettes clicked and I was able to adjust to the question style in days instead of the month or so that it took most students to master. When professors are talking about a disease, I often have at least a vague exposure to it. It's not an entirely new concept. I may not have known the biochemical basis of the disease as in depth as I do now, but I knew enough to create a foundation for future learning.

Gross anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology were considerably easier with the background. When we started physical assessment, several of my evaluators often commented, perplexed, about how smooth and refined my presentation was. When they asked, they almost universally responded that my previous experience showed. In fact, generally all of the previous semiautonomous allied-health professionals in my class perform very well. This is especially true of the occasional former PA or paramedic.

The trick is to distinguish between card carrying "medics" and former career healthcare providers. I've been surprised by the number of overachievers who got their paramedic with an 8-9 month night class. Medical students are intrepid people and, as other have said, picking up a paramedic license to pad a CV isn't a new concept. I usually can pick out an inexperienced (substitute hobbyist?) paramedic after about 3-4 minutes of them speaking. It's that obvious and, I imagine, it's obvious to adcoms.

So, my thoughts:

1) As others have said, padding your resume with a paramedic license is a waste of time and demeaning to the profession.
2) Practicing paramedics with an eye toward more advanced practice should go back to school, take the MCAT, and apply to medical school. You'll do great.

Discussion: Will EMS Help My Medical School Application?

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