I suck at this small group crap...

vatootova said:

I guess, any advice on how I can overcome this would be great.

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My best advice is to just let them have their fun while you realize that PBL has very little to do with the practice of modern medicine and that it's an inherently flawed system.

CBL aside, most small groups from my experience at my school are mainly about discussing opinions and perspectives. There aren't any wrong answers. You gotta feel one way or another about the issues right? So say something. I know...it's easier said than done. But you gotta try, even if you have to interrupt.

Also, I think your facilitator sucks. He/she should be somewhat regulating the discussion so everyone has a chance to get a word in.

What an ideal time for SDN to start hosting panda's blog:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/pandabearmd/2006/11/20/hell-on-earth/

Enjoy

vatootova said:

Just started med school this year and I can't help but feel very frustrated ... I'd say on our tests, I will do fine... mostly because I study like a biotch... however in pbl and small groups I am very frustrated since it seems to be an opportunity for others to show off how much they know about everything (from previous education mostly... mostly going on freaking useless tangents every 5 minutes) ...meanwhile I just sit there, and most of the time conciously decide that I will no longer say anything because a) I am not very vocal in general (I tend to be introverted) and b) I have no good points to bring up because I am sitting next to two people who not only like to hear the sound of there voice but also have phDs and like to make sure everyone knows it. This has left me feeling frustrated since I feel like I have nothing useful to add to the discussion and I am not used to being overshadowed to such an extent. In other groups (we have many different small groups) I find I am constantly being overshadowed by people who are very extroverted. friggg. My evals will probably suffer since I generally don't participate as much as I should. I'm not sure what the point of posting this was. I guess just to get it off my chest... ahhh feels good. I guess, any advice on how I can overcome this would be great.

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I go to a hardcore PBL based school, so I know how you feel. Here are some suggestions:

- Tell your group you feel over-shadowed.
- Tell your tutor you feel over-shadowed.
- Anytime others go off on a tangent that's not relating to the case (ie membrane channels or the many effects of the 14-3-3 protein that one of your group mates researched in their PhD) suggest they get back on topic
- Sounds lame, but put your hand up when you want to say something (signals to other members you want to speak).

You better get used to it though, no PBL group is ever perfect and you're going to be working with people you may not necessarily like for the rest of your career.

i can relate to what u're going through--i used to be introverted before coming to medical school... at the beginning i thought these group discussions were meaningless, or i can just sit and have nothing to say and everything would be fine... but then i realized that this discussion stuff is actually for our benefit, and the more we practice speaking up and giving our opinions, the easier it will get the time after

something i always keep in the back of my mind is "practice makes perfect" ... another one is "its now or never"... so just get into the discussion.. dont be afraid... and be positive... speak deliberately as if you are enjoyin what u're saying... and doing some research also helps

ways to get through PBL:

1) Make sure you say at least 1 thing per session. Speaking more than 3 times is over-rated (unless you're presenting the subjects you were asked to research).

2) Go to the board and be the writer. It takes away from speaking and makes it look like you're doing something.

While I'm okay with the small-group stuff here and there, what actually seems odd to me is when certain people, by default, think they're WAAAY cooler than you or anyone else in the room by NOT participating at all, and rolling their eyes whenever someone they don't like opens their mouth to answer a question. In a way, it's almost entertaining watching them flip out over something so trivial. It's like 6th-grade all over again, where it's uncool to pay attention in school or something.

I say just contribute what you want, when you want, and if someone has a problem with it... tough $hit.

We've had 3 small groups so far, and my first one wasn't very fun but I found that I've improved simply by just preparing a little bit more ahead of time so that I can speak up and take more initiative. In our groups, we don't know what the specific topic/case will be ahead of time but you can guess based on the week's lectures.

I would suggest, if you're not give the specific small group questions ahead, try to take some time the night before to think about the theme of the previous week and your opinions, pre-plan important things you've taken away that you would want to mention.

If you're discussing medical cases, I don't see how over-stating that you have a PhD in chemistry or whatnot, will help the discussion. So assuming since you're in medical school, you must have some hospital volunteering or maybe research experience. Maybe you should try to bring some past experiences into the discussion once in a while. Maybe try to think of some situations that are applicable to your weekly theme that you have come across in the past.

Lastly, do you have a chance to do feedback at the end of each session? We pretty much overkill with feedback, we do formal written feedback at midterm/final and oral feedback at each session, and people generally say the truth in a nice way, so if there were PhDs here who talk too much off tangent, they would find out.

Maybe if you have feedback next week you can say that you feel the group discussion is being led too much by certain individuals, and specifically to the PhDs you can say "while I appreciate your (chemistry) background I feel that you often stray off the topic too much and should try to work to keep the discussion focused", to the facilitator you can say "you should try to ensure that everyone has a chance to speak and that the discussion always remains on topic so that we don't waste time"....I don't think those types of comments are rude and they are definitely necessary and would be appreciated. People have said worse in our discussions and noone got angry or upset. It's all about teaching each other to give constructive feedback because trust me there will be lots of that in clinical rotations.

Hope this at least gave you a few ideas! Remember don't ever be afraid to speak your mind, it doesn't matter what those other people think, you're just trying to show the facilitator that you have an opinion.

I love the discussions. As I am so great at debating I always make my opponent look embarrased. Of course you have to be very knowledgable to smack down a PhD gunner but with some SKILL, it can be done.

GO GET THEM TIGER!

plainfacts said:

I love the discussions. As I am so great at debating I always make my opponent look embarrased. Of course you have to be very knowledgable to smack down a PhD gunner but with some SKILL, it can be done.

GO GET THEM TIGER!

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You really don't get it, do you? The point of small group isn't to 'debate' and embarrass your 'opponent'. While the PhD gunner may need to be put in his place every now and again, it should be done tactfully.

A lot can be gained from small groups. The only problem is med schools expect you to figure it all out on your own (that is, how to interact effectively in small groups), while only attending sessions once a week at most.

I just wanna sympathize with the OP and say, yeah, small groups can suck! Some are great, some are bad. It depends on your fellow students and on the leader.

Suck it up and know that you will leave this behind and not have to do it 3/4 year.

PBL etc sounds so fun in the abstract but in retrospect I am sooo glad I did not go to a PBL-heavy school.

Spend the entire time trying to pick up flaws in your classmates' logic or misstatements. Then call them out on it. Everyone makes mistakes sooner or later, and the second they do, you should be there to slap them down.

Of course that's not the point of small group and of course we should all be using the discussions to learn from each other, but that's just not the way it works out in real life. The people you're being "overshadowed" by are just peole who talk for the sake of talking, people who love the sound of their own voice, people who will make it very difficult for their coworkers once they get out of school.

So do your homework, remember that your views and opinions are every bit as valuble as their's (even though you don't have a phd), and, when the oppurtunity appears, slap that bitch down.

turkeyjerky said:

Spend the entire time trying to pick up flaws in your classmates' logic or misstatements. Then call them out on it. Everyone makes mistakes sooner or later, and the second they do, you should be there to slap them down.

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We used to have group meetings in a graduate course in neuroscience that is usually taught at med schools. Sure, people said different things since they were graduate students, but if you had read everything in the textbook and a little beyond, you could always contribute something as well. Usually when other people talk about information that I don't know I try to listen to it and try to learn from it instead of thinking that the person is "showing off." If someone is talking about correct information that is related to the discussion, then it is not "showing off." You also have the ability to read about the subject matter beyond your textbook yourself, if you are interested enough.

Having said that, if you have some students who endlessly talk about one small detail without understanding the entire system or reiterate information that most students already know, you could start asking them questions and delve deeper and deeper until they run out. Next time they will be careful before dispersing information just for the sake of showing off. Still, your ability to ask difficult questions depends on the depth of your own knowledge. I think that in small groups people who are well rounded (which is not the same as a book worm studying the textbook to the letter) shine through. That is a very respectable quality. If you want to know what's really annoying try to be in a small group that has absolutely nothing new to contribute to your knowledge. Now that's unbearable.

Finally, are the meetings mandatory? If you don't learn anything there (or don't want to) and have nothing to contribute, maybe you shouldn't attend, if you can.

francisco84 said:

You really don't get it, do you? The point of small group isn't to 'debate' and embarrass your 'opponent'. While the PhD gunner may need to be put in his place every now and again, it should be done tactfully.

A lot can be gained from small groups. The only problem is med schools expect you to figure it all out on your own (that is, how to interact effectively in small groups), while only attending sessions once a week at most.

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plainfacts is a troll (see the "infusing pro-life ideals" thread).

francisco84 said:

You really don't get it, do you? The point of small group isn't to 'debate' and embarrass your 'opponent'. While the PhD gunner may need to be put in his place every now and again, it should be done tactfully.

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I assumed his group members were gunners who wanted to show off, my comment was just to give the OP some support that they can be fought. Of course if the members are good people, don't act like a gunner towards them.

plainfacts said:

I assumed his group members were gunners who wanted to show off, my comment was just to give the OP some support that they can be fought. Of course if the members are good people, don't act like a gunner towards them.

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have we not banned this guy yet?

PeepshowJohnny said:

My best advice is to just let them have their fun while you realize that PBL has very little to do with the practice of modern medicine and that it's an inherently flawed system.

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/shrug. My school has PBL for 9 hours a week and I find it helpful. Unlike lecture, its never boring. I study up the night before, hash it out with people in the group, figure out what I do and don't know, then study up more to go at it again for the next meeting.

Its easy to call PBL 'an inherently flawed system' when you get a few group members who don't jive with your style of learning. Whats more difficult is actually putting in the effort with your groupmates and your mentor to form a cohesive team that is focused and efficient. IMHO, you shouldn't develop a bad attitude towards PBL this early in the game without at least trying to get everyone in your group on the same page.

thRob said:

Its easy to call PBL 'an inherently flawed system' when you get a few group members who don't jive with your style of learning. Whats more difficult is actually putting in the effort with your groupmates and your mentor to form a cohesive team that is focused and efficient. IMHO, you shouldn't develop a bad attitude towards PBL this early in the game without at least trying to get everyone in your group on the same page.

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Uuuuh. I'm a fourth year.

I've been through PBL first and second year. I've seen the group member who goes on the 10 minute rambling segue about the research he did in undergrad that was relevent to the discussion (hint: it wasn't). I've seen the group member swear his completely incorrect information was "straight ouf of Harrison's" when he was obviously wrong and refused to admit it. I've seen pretty much every other bad stereotype about PBL come true, and worst, it didn't prepare me as well for clinical years as *gasp* lecturing and independent study.

treva said:

- Anytime others go off on a tangent that's not relating to the case (ie membrane channels or the many effects of the 14-3-3 protein that one of your group mates researched in their PhD) suggest they get back on topic

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Try saying something like, "Though your research on mating habits of the rhesus monkey sounds fascinating, I'm not understanding how it connects with the topics at hand. Could you please explain the connection to me?"

Like you, I am introverted and better on multiple choice tests than in small groups. It's a real drag having to constantly one-up each other with your 'leadership'.

PeepshowJohnny said:

Uuuuh. I'm a fourth year.

I've been through PBL first and second year. I've seen the group member who goes on the 10 minute rambling segue about the research he did in undergrad that was relevent to the discussion (hint: it wasn't). I've seen the group member swear his completely incorrect information was "straight ouf of Harrison's" when he was obviously wrong and refused to admit it. I've seen pretty much every other bad stereotype about PBL come true, and worst, it didn't prepare me as well for clinical years as *gasp* lecturing and independent study.

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I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience. I'm only a first year, so perhaps I'll grow bitter towards it as time goes by. Where do you go to school at? I'm at SIU, and in my class of ~75, I'd say there are only 3 or 4 people I'd consider obnoxious gunners that I can forsee as causing problems in small group.

I was involved with a PBL-style program back at WashU during undergrad both as a student and eventually mentor. While that was different on many levels from the PBL we have at SIU (actual problem based VS. case based), I spent over 40 hours with each of 70 other undergrads in groups of 8 and was able to see all sorts of different small group personas. Of those 70 people, the vast majority would eventually learn to work well together in their small groups. I'd say 10 people at most had issues at the start, but only 1 or 2 people retained major issues with group learning after I'd put a few hours effort into helping them discover what their role in the group was.

I have no idea what experiences you've had or how much effort you/your tutor/your peers put into small group. What I do know is that the experiences I've had working with people in a structured format have been very fruitful thus far and I have every reason to believe that this won't change. If it does, you can say 'I told ya so'

#1 Small groups are always a crapshoot in terms of the type of people, group dynamic, facilitator douche-itude, etc. When you are lucky enough to get a cool group of people who are chill and non-judgmental and a facilitator who genuinely gets a kick out of helping students learn the process, small groups actually can be reasonably helpful in terms of learning how to think and problem-solve like a doctor. There will definitely be the odd small group with all the grade-A dicks and a facilitator who seems more interested in belittling and pimping than truly fostering discussion. Just write it off and focus on survival.

#2 Small groups get WAY better once you actually have some knowledge under your belt. At the beginning of 1st year you have a bunch of uptight kids without any real insight grasping to sound relevant. Once you start working with some real substance, the experience definitely is more productive.

#3 Don't worry about "scoring points" in discussion. The more you concern yourself with trying to think of something brilliant to say, the less likely you'll come up with something and end up missing the point entirely. A good way I've found to participate is to ask questions about features I genuinely don't understand. It not only makes you seem curious and engaged, but also makes discussion more fruitful in terms of actually learning something.

vatootova said:

Just started med school this year and I can't help but feel very frustrated ... I'd say on our tests, I will do fine... mostly because I study like a biotch... however in pbl and small groups I am very frustrated since it seems to be an opportunity for others to show off how much they know about everything (from previous education mostly... mostly going on freaking useless tangents every 5 minutes) ...meanwhile I just sit there, and most of the time conciously decide that I will no longer say anything because a) I am not very vocal in general (I tend to be introverted) and b) I have no good points to bring up because I am sitting next to two people who not only like to hear the sound of there voice but also have phDs and like to make sure everyone knows it. This has left me feeling frustrated since I feel like I have nothing useful to add to the discussion and I am not used to being overshadowed to such an extent. In other groups (we have many different small groups) I find I am constantly being overshadowed by people who are very extroverted. friggg. My evals will probably suffer since I generally don't participate as much as I should. I'm not sure what the point of posting this was. I guess just to get it off my chest... ahhh feels good. I guess, any advice on how I can overcome this would be great.

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Ha,

Small group garbage is for losers. I hated this so much in med school. It gave the nerds their 15 mins of fame while taking valuable time away from MY individual study at the library. I sat back, tried to answer any question asked directly to me the best I could, and listened to pick up a little tidbit here or there I wasn't clear about.

The people that "shined" in small group were the "artsy bottom feeders" in my class who bombed the written tests and barely passed Step 1 and 2 (but looked great in small group - who cares?) or the "kids who used to get beat up in high school type" who were on a mission to earn those brownie points.

Trust me - work on getting as high of grades as you can, destroy Step 1, and leave the pow-wow sessions to the children in your class. I did.

rvarsity said:

Ha,

Small group garbage is for losers. I hated this so much in med school. It gave the nerds their 15 mins of fame while taking valuable time away from MY individual study at the library. I sat back, tried to answer any question asked directly to me the best I could, and listened to pick up a little tidbit here or there I wasn't clear about.

The people that "shined" in small group were the "artsy bottom feeders" in my class who bombed the written tests and barely passed Step 1 and 2 (but looked great in small group - who cares?) or the "kids who used to get beat up in high school type" who were on a mission to earn those brownie points.

Trust me - work on getting as high of grades as you can, destroy Step 1, and leave the pow-wow sessions to the children in your class. I did.

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Wow, you have really held a grudge after realizing how much smarter the other people in your class were than you.

Blesbok said:

Wow, you have really held a grudge after realizing how much smarter the other people in your class were than you.

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See guys, this is what I'm talking about.

I'm thinking he's the "kids who used to get beat up in high school type".

Thanks for proving my point !!

rvarsity said:

See guys, this is what I'm talking about.

I'm thinking he's the "kids who used to get beat up in high school type".

Thanks for proving my point !!

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Okay, we get it. we get it. Small group obviously failed your personality and learning style. Works really well for me

rvarsity said:

See guys, this is what I'm talking about.

I'm thinking he's the "kids who used to get beat up in high school type".

Thanks for proving my point !!

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Ok, bud, keep telling yourself that.