Internship Supply / Demand Imbalance

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Therapist4Chnge

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This is an e-mail I received yesterday from on the APPIC Internship Listserv from Dr Steve McCutcheon, PhD, who is Chair of the APPIC Board of Directors. I thought it was timely, since we recently talked about the supply/demand issue involved in internship placements


One of the points they talk about (limiting program spots to the # of spots they can consistently place) I actually proposed on here earlier this year/last year (they must have thought my idea was awesome. 😀 ) . They really need to make some serious changes because the numbers seem to be getting worse each year.


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Dear students, interns and fellows – The internship supply/demand imbalance has been of great concern to the student community for a number of years. Students frequently contact APPIC to ask what we’re doing to make the situation better. As Chair of the APPIC Board, I’ve strived to keep students informed about the many actions APPIC has undertaken in this effort. As you’ll appreciate, the imbalance is not caused by APPIC and cannot be solved by APPIC alone. Instead, the imbalance is caused by multiple factors, including the increasing demand by students for doctoral training, by funding limitations for mental and behavioral health in the community, by the economics of higher education, etc. Because of the multiplicity of causes, any single “solution” is doomed to failure. Instead, it’s essential to find factors that mitigate the imbalance on multiple fronts, and to work collaboratively with all partners in the educational process. Toward that end, APPIC and APA recently convened the “Imbalance Meeting”, which brought together a select group of representatives to establish an action plan.

The report from the Imbalance Meeting has just been finalized and each of the training councils involved are distributing it to their respective memberships. I sent the following message to our APPIC Training Directors. I’m forwarding this message to you in the interest of keeping you informed about our efforts on your behalf. You may have already received a copy from APAGS, but in case you’re not a member, I wanted to make sure that you had access to this report.

Steve

Steve McCutcheon, PhD
Chair, APPIC Board of Directors
Director, Psychology Training Programs
VA Puget Sound, Seattle

From: McCutcheon, Stephen R. [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 4:01 PM
To: APPIC Members News
Subject: [members-news] Imbalance Meeting report



APPIC MEMBERS-NEWS
---

Dear APPIC colleagues – In August, I asked for your input regarding ideas to improve the internship supply/demand imbalance, in preparation for a meeting that I was to attend on behalf of APPIC. The “Imbalance Meeting” was convened by APPIC and APA, and included one representative from each of the five doctoral training councils as well as APAGS (the graduate student association of APA). As you know, APPIC has been extensively involved for many years in trying to improve this problem. The “Imbalance Meeting” convened this past September was the latest step in building consensus about pathways that the profession can take to improve this problem for all of our students.

The meeting proved to be frank, collegial and productive. Everyone in attendance worked hard for one and a half days to advocate for their constituency, to listen to dissenting opinions, and to eventually craft a consensus document about steps that each of the councils would commit to taking in the short-, mid- and long-term. A consensus report has been completed and is included below. I hope that you’ll take a few minutes to read this over.

I’d like to draw your attention to two points in particular.

APPIC attended the meeting with a primary request: that doctoral programs accept responsibility for the number of students they produce who enter the Match - either by decreasing enrollment or directly contributing to the growth of internship positions - to a degree that is proportional to the success of those programs in the Match. For example, a program that successfully matches all of their students would have a need neither to decrease enrollment nor contribute to internship expansion. However, a program that consistently has a poor Match rate would have an obligation to decrease their enrollment and/or contribute to internship expansion, to a degree that is proportional to the difficulty they have in placing students. Taking such responsibility seems only fair. It would go far to improving the imbalance without impinging on the educational and business decisions of doctoral programs, or by decreasing the workforce of psychology in the absence of hard data on the nation’s needs for psychologists. As you’ll see in the following report, this critical principle found agreement among the representatives at the meeting.

Additionally, the majority of doctoral councils noted that their graduate programs require or expect their students to attend APA or CPA accredited internships. These doctoral programs see the imbalance problem as especially acute, given that only some 70% of APPIC member internships are accredited. This means that, de facto, their students have a smaller “pool” of internships to which they can apply.

APPIC values our entire membership. Indeed, excellent training can be found in both accredited and non-accredited programs. On the whole, however, accreditation is the gold standard for quality training. APPIC has always encouraged our members to view APPIC membership as a first step in eventually attaining accreditation. At the same time, we understand that there can be financial and administrative barriers to achieving accreditation for otherwise deserving programs, especially during hard financial times. Nonetheless, the importance of external review (as happens in the accreditation process) is so critical in improving and certifying “quality” that the APPIC Board wants to redouble our efforts in making APA or CPA accreditation feasible and attractive to our members. At the Imbalance Meeting, the representatives generated a list of requests to be submitted to the APA Commission on Accreditation (CoA) that we believe will ease perceived barriers to seeking accreditation. These ideas include changes to the fee structure, procedures, etc. that could make accreditation more feasible for the 30% of APPIC members that have not yet taken this step. On our own, APPIC is also taking some steps to help our members: we’re partnering with CoA to present workshops at our Membership meeting in Portland, Oregon (April 2009) to make the accreditation process more accessible and user-friendly. If we can find ways to make accreditation more feasible for our members, we will contribute to easing the imbalance problem by increasing the pool of sites to which students can apply, even though this action alone does not impact the number of total positions.

These are two of the many action steps described in the following report. I hope you’ll review them all. What happens next? The consensus report will be widely distributed, and will certainly provoke more discussion and debate. The report will also be submitted to the Council of Chairs of Training Councils (CCTC) at our upcoming meeting on Oct. 23, and immediately following that, at the meeting of APA’s Board of Educational Affairs (BEA). Further action steps are likely to grow out of these presentations, while concurrently, the individual councils will work to implement the agreements forged at the Imbalance Meeting.

If you have comments or questions that you want to direct to the APPIC Board, please feel free to send me a back channel message at [email protected]. If your comments would be better directed to fellow APPIC Training Directors, please consider posting a message to the discussion listserv (members-network). Directions for enrolling on the listserv and/or posting messages are found on the APPIC web page (www.appic.org). Just click on “E-mail lists” on the right hand side of the home page.

Steve

Steve McCutcheon, PhD
Chair, APPIC Board of Directors
Chair, Council of Chairs of Training Councils (CCTC)
Director, Psychology Training Programs
VA Puget Sound, Seattle
***********************************************************************
Match Imbalance Meeting
September 5-6, 2008
Background:

BEA and the Council of Chairs of Training Councils (CCTC) have been discussing the match imbalance as an ongoing agenda item. That is, there is a discrepancy between the numbers of students seeking an internship through the APPIC match system and the number of positions available. In recent conversations, consensus in the group has been that the internship match imbalance is a long standing and complex situation, embedded in a number of significant issues facing professional psychology at present. Nonetheless, given the significant impact the match imbalance is having on our next generation of professional psychologists, the sentiment is that it is the responsibility of the education and training community to take actions to try to mitigate the situation. At their March 2008 meeting the members of CCTC agreed to hold a meeting of key stakeholder groups represented in the membership of CCTC to discuss the points of agreement and disagreement between groups and, more importantly, agree to engage in specific action steps directed toward improving the match imbalance. The groups identified were:

American Psychological Association Education Directorate Staff (APA)
Association of Psychological Association of Graduate Students (APAGS)
Association of Psychology Postdoctoral and Internship Centers (APPIC)
Council of Combined and Integrated Doctoral Programs in Psychology (CCIDPIP)
Council of Counseling Psychology Training Programs (CCPTP)
Council of Directors of School Psychology Programs (CDSPP)
Council of University Directors of Clinical Psychology (CUDCP)
National Council of Schools and Programs in Professional Psychology (NCSPP)

It was further agreed that each group would send one representative, who would be to the extent possible empowered by their group to make decisions on the group’s behalf. The intent was to facilitate conversation by keeping the size of the meeting small. Groups would be responsible for covering the expenses of their representative, with general meeting expenses jointly shared by APA and APPIC. APA and APPIC agreed to facilitate the meeting with the understanding that they would also be active participants and that the discussions were to be shaped by all at the table.

In preparation for the meeting, each representative was asked to review the proposed pathways discussed in the articles that were published in the November 2007 special issue of Training and Education in Professional Psychology on the match imbalance and a report presented to the APA Board of Educational Affairs in the fall of 2007 on this issue.

Participants were also asked to discuss the following questions with their members prior to the meeting:

What are the key issues for your group?
What have you been doing to address the match imbalance?
What could/would you be willing to do?
What wouldn't you be willing to do?
How would you organize your actions steps in terms of a time line?
What would you ask of the other groups sitting at the table?


Overview of the Meeting:

The meeting took place over a day and a half. Mid-way through the first afternoon an extended break in the meeting occurred such that representatives could contact their respective boards or units, report on the discussions held to that point, and make decisions regarding the actions to which they were willing to commit. The remainder of the meeting was spent crafting the action steps that are detailed in this report.

Outcomes:

The group agreed to the following overarching concepts:

1.We have a collective responsibility for actions to address the match imbalance.

2.Collaborative efforts across the groups will benefit students and professional psychology.

3.Continuing attention to the match imbalance is required and necessitates the development of strategies that can be implemented in the short-, mid-, and long-term.

4.Any action designed to impact the quantity of positions must ensure that the quality of education and training experiences is maintained.

Pathways and group actions are proposed and presented in Appendix A.

The group also discussed two additional recommendations that were proposed in the special issue of TEPP, but did not target them as specific action items for the following reasons.


  • Market forces will resolve this issue in time: the group felt this was not an acceptable course of action in favor of the steps they agreed to
  • Academic program policies should be changed to remove requirements that students attend an accredited internship: the group felt this raised issues of quality which they felt was important to promote; especially accreditation
 

Appendix A

Proposed Pathway
Proposed Action by Group
Doctoral Training Councils
APA
APPIC
APAGS
1. Innovative ways of increasing slots in existing accredited programs

NCSPP will create a "storyboard" of ways that they have been successful in creating new positions, how they found funding sources, and what did not work to distribute to training councils in November

To launch survey to members and subscribers (short-term: distribute November)

Work on ways to pair programs/ resources – APPIC will serve as broker

2. Doctoral councils will establish consensus of what are minimal requirements for eligibility to participate in the match (e.g., having completed and passed comprehensive exams)

Requirements would need to be met at the time DCT/DoT signs part II of the AAPI

Need training councils to discuss, get agreement, and report back to APPIC


Also visit this issue as part of national training conference

Awaiting feedback from training councils and APAGS

APAGS request to APPIC: consider not allowing students to enter the clearinghouse without first registering for the Match.

To survey their membership about how this would impact students

3.
Decrease barriers for internship programs to be accredited

Included as a separate population to be sampled in the APPIC survey noted above (#1)


Request to CoA from group: consider modification to fees such as fees ramp up or no fees, fees dependent on size of program; consider provisional accreditation for internships; make application changes


APA to provide more consultation to newer programs


4. Develop Toolkits (paper and on-line)
a. for starting internships
b. for helping existing internships expand
c. for becoming accredited

CCTC project

Training councils to purchase for members
Host on-line version on website
Publishing hard copy might be supported by APPIC

5. Changes to APPIC match

APPIC will explore the proposal that the Match only be open to students from accredited doctoral programs. Need to develop a mechanism for new doctoral programs; existing doctoral program subscribers that are not accredited; impact on students; implications for non-accredited members
To obtain feedback from members

6.
Commitment to altering APPIC match imbalance by either increasing supply or decreasing demand
Additional actions to be discussed within councils

Link responsibility for action to match rates in a proportional manner. That is, programs would have a match goal (e.g., 90%) and if their match rate was lower than this, they would have a responsibility to either find or create placements for the unplaced students, or then to reduce their enrollment by that number

Issues that need further discussion: a) agree on whether it would be proportional to APPIC match rates or placement rates? b) agree on whether this would be based on long-term rates and if so for what period of time; c) determine how newly developed and ad hoc placements will be subject to external review

Develop partially or wholly affiliated internships

Request to CoA to consider revisiting implementing regulation D4.7 with respect to internship placement/rates and discuss possible actions

Steps toward improving outcomes should also be evaluated; not just overall rates


7. National training conference on sequence of education and training
CCTC to take action/lead on what the issues are and how conference should be structured

Training councils discuss ability to commit financially

Discussion of item #5 to be on agenda
Request: provide support for arranging meeting logistics; financial support

8. Workforce analysis

Continued efforts


9. Truth in advertising

Ongoing and greater efforts. Data from Graduate Study in Psychology about internship to be posted on Education Directorate Website.
Ongoing and greater efforts

10. Efforts to better educate potential consumers of graduate training through data and information dissemination
CUDCP to develop resource materials for undergraduates preparing to go for graduate study about going into the match also to develop materials for students/ programs in cases for students who did not match

APA to develop resource materials for undergraduates preparing to go for graduate study about going into the match also to develop materials for students/ programs in cases for students who did not match

APPIC to develop resource materials for undergraduates preparing to go for graduate study about going into the match also to develop materials for students/programs in cases for students who did not match

APAGS to continue to develop resource materials for undergraduates preparing to go for graduate study about going into the match also to develop materials for students/ programs in cases for students who did not match

11. Advocacy
All training councils agree to lobby their members' faculty and staff to join APA, get trained in advocacy, to become members of AAP, donate to the Education Advocacy Trust (EdAT), to designate a campus training representative in the FEDAC network, and to engage in local and national advocacy for funding for education and training in professional psychology

Encourage APA to consider allocating additional resources to ensure adequate staffing in education government relations office such that there would be a designated individual whose focus would be on funding for internship training


APAGS will make this effort an advocacy team priority.
 
My original comments on the topic:

There are contributing factors to all sides.....

I think the APA needs to evaluate their standards, and assess the current problems in the system (matching, abundance of people not placing, etc) I think the increase in students is at least partially based on the opportunity to grow their membership.

The schools need to evaluate their program, students, and make sure that the level of each are what they should be.

The grad students need to be aware of the potential issues that they may encounter. In years past, I have known a number of students at top programs who considered internship as an after thought, and were rudely met by not only not getting their top choice , but not matching at all.

I'm rather frustrated by the process of the current system. I have seen very qualified applicants miss out because they didn't pick the right mix of sites. I think what most concerns me is that the process takes much of the control away from those involved, and instead rely on a 'system' to make it all work. I know it is the applicant's option to pick the sites, but then it becomes purely a numbers game...if you get all top applicants at certain sites, and very mediocre ones at another, it can leave the top candidates in the cold because they all canceled each other out, and the mediocre placements get their spots because of chance, not ability.

Admittedly part of me wants to be able to arrange my own placement and be done with it (that's how it's done in business, and that how I've always done it), but for a myriad of reasons (ethical, etc) that can't happen. I guess I'll be praying to APPIC that my top site wants me as much as I want them.
 
It is indeed truly scary. I have always found it odd that one can make it this far and be a successful grad student and a competent clinician, yet you are forced to sell yourself over and over for the basic capstone internship position. There is so much talk of "standing out" and making yourself "competitive" for internship. I am all for quality control, but by this point in your career, you should have already be deemed competent and qualified by your program. I just think some of that should be taken care of on the back end.

They drive and drive us around here with the question of: "What makes you different", "What makes you stand-out as an applicant?" Well, frankly, not hell of alot really. I am a just as intelligent as most other psychologists, I am a ethical and hard working, and have some good clinical experiences. I am just as competent and accomplished as most people are for this stage of training. I am not trying to be a big ten researcher and I am not aiming to find the cause of schizophrenia. I just want to be a good psychologist. What more do you want, and I why should I be expected to be some "graduate-superstar" just to get my minimal internship?
 
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This is a start, but that's about it. Unfortunately, this m anifesto has no teeth. APPIC, by and large, is an organization that does nothing to help students. They just take their $100 registration fee from them and forget about them. This is just window dressing. After all, the more applicants, the more money for them

Ask yourself these questions and see how much APPIC has helped: Why are internship salaries still around $18K? When was the last time the salaries were raised? If APPIC has nothing to do with the amount of the salaries, why do most internships pay around $18K?
 
Might as well reflect on this lovely process they call "internship applications"......

It is indeed truly scary. I have always found it odd that one can make it this far and be a successful grad student and a competent clinician, yet you are forced to sell yourself over and over for the basic capstone internship position. There is so much talk of "standing out" and making yourself "competitive" for internship. I am all for quality control, but by this point in your career, you should have already be deemed competent and qualified by your program. I just think some of that should be taken care of on the back end.

It really is frustrating. I think the training is needed, but stressing for the better part of the year, fighting to fly all over the country to interview, selling yourself to countless programs.....all for a $17k-$18k salary. <--not a typo. I believe in the mentoring process, but at least pay a fair wage and implement a system that actually works. Some sites pay better, but they are in the minority.

They drive and drive us around here with the question of: "What makes you different", "What makes you stand-out as an applicant?" Well, frankly, not hell of a lot really.

At that stage of training, you are probably right. Most people try and go above and beyond, but that is expected. It is almost a contest to see who has the most gold stars and smiley faces....because few grad students will be okay with just doing the requirement amount (picture the "pieces of flare" rant from Office Space).
 
This is a start, but that's about it. Unfortunately, this m anifesto has no teeth. APPIC, by and large, is an organization that does nothing to help students. They just take their $100 registration fee from them and forget about them. This is just window dressing. After all, the more applicants, the more money for them

Ask yourself these questions and see how much APPIC has helped: Why are internship salaries still around $18K? When was the last time the salaries were raised? If APPIC has nothing to do with the amount of the salaries, why do most internships pay around $18K?

APPIC coordinates the match. Why should they care? What should they do? The APA should be fixing this, not APPIC.

Salaries suck because supply exceeds demand. Supply exceeds demand because, even as APPIC increases the number of sites for no really good reason, particular programs take to taking on more and more students to fund their existence while maintaining a 60% match rate. If internship sites fought for students, rather than students for sites, salaries would be high. Actually you can see this in certain internship areas, such as forensics, corrections, and military psych.

Increasing the number of sites would do nothing, in my opinion. Particular programs would simply take on more students and maintain a low match rate.

The APA should be solving this problem at the accreditation level. If a training program doesn't particularly care about placing students at APA sites as evidenced by a low (sub-70%) match rate, then they shouldn't care about their program being APA accredited. Those programs should be placed on probation with an enrollment cap, and if they still fail they should have accreditation removed. I'm decently convinced that this one action would resolve the majority of the match debaucle.


By "particular programs," yes I by and large mean professional schools. I don't mean to start something with that, but I don't really see the value in pretending that that's not a serious issue in the profession in order to not hurt some feelings.
 
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APPIC, by and large, is an organization that does nothing to help students. They just take their $100 registration fee from them and forget about them.

From the people I've spoken with affiliated with APPIC, they seemed genuine about wanting to do right by the students, however it seems that they are moving at a glacial pace. The imbalance is not new, but now it is a bigger problem.

Ask yourself these questions and see how much APPIC has helped: Why are internship salaries still around $18K? When was the last time the salaries were raised? If APPIC has nothing to do with the amount of the salaries, why do most internships pay around $18K?

I know part of the answer is funding problems, particularly for CMHCs and related placements. I think our "value" was set long ago, and sadly it has not done much to improve that figure. I may not agree with it, but we are stuck working for $9/hr ($18,000/ 50 wks / 40hr = $9/hr).
 
Below are some great points you made. Have you thought about e-mailing APPIC with these? I do agree that you make more slots, the professional schools will just pump out more students!


Increasing the number of sites would do nothing, in my opinion. Particular programs would simply take on more students and maintain a low match rate.

The APA should be solving this problem at the accreditation level. If a training program doesn't particularly care about placing students at APA sites as evidenced by a low (sub-70%) match rate, then they shouldn't care about their program being APA accredited. Those programs should be placed on probation with an enrollment cap, and if they still fail they should have accreditation removed. I'm decently conveniced that this one action would resolve the majority of the match debaucle
.


By "particular programs," yes I by and large mean professional schools. I don't mean to start something with that, but I don't really see the value in pretending that that's not a serious issue in the profession in order to not hurt some feelings.
 
From the people I've spoken with affiliated with APPIC, they seemed genuine about wanting to do right by the students, however it seems that they are moving at a glacial pace. The imbalance is not new, but now it is a bigger problem.



I know part of the answer is funding problems, particularly for CMHCs and related placements. I think our "value" was set long ago, and sadly it has not done much to improve that figure. I may not agree with it, but we are stuck working for $9/hr ($18,000/ 50 wks / 40hr = $9/hr).


This is part of what prevents psychology salaries from being higher as well.

[rant]
It's sad to say that many are stuck with this, it simply isn't right and to be honest after 8-10 years (or so) of schooling it's rather insulting. First year engineering students, which are no brighter, suck down more than double the money after finishing a 4/5 year program. JD's from top programs may see as much as $160k after finishing 7-8 years of school (Yes, georgetown grads do see these numbers.) Even physicians starting their residences average $44k with no more education than the average psychologist.

Psychology for all it's smart people, has screwed itself with artificially low internship salaries. Honestly, if I were not traveling down the path that I am, I don't know if I could afford to be a psychologist. It makes almost no financial sense what so ever, at least not till several years post-graduate and post-licensure.
[/rant]

Really it's criminal that this situation persists, but as long as supply of bodies remains strong, the pay will remain weak. Best of luck to all who have to endure the worst of it.

Mark
 
Yikes, and I thought getting into a program in the first place was scary.

I guess that I thought that if you came from a good program with a good match rate, you'd be okay. Doesn't look like that's the case, though..
 
1) why are internships not paid on the same scale as master's level positions? because they can with no consequences.

IMO psychology pays low because it does not view itself as a business. training directors rationalize the low pay by considering it training. imho this is just ritualized hazing. i am sure this exploitative practice will continue until some intern does something to wake up the system. the only way i see this happening is for some intern successfully sues an internship for violating minimum wage laws. and file apa ethics charges against the internship admin for exploitation.


2) supply of internship. again, programs can do this because they can with no significant consequences. why doesn't APA require the APA programs to have to create their own internship site with enough spots for their students? We know they have the ability because they have the practica. Sure they would flip and cry out about money, but internship sites are a money maker. t4c's idea of creating a cap on enrollment would also somewhat help. then i believe it should be taken one step further such that APA students are allowed to have match at an early date and then at a much later date non-APA students could have their match day. this would simply recreate the tiered system for admissions. This would immediately fill the need for all APA student internships. non-APA programs could either choose to emulate this requirement or screw their students over.

oh and do away with that stupid "we tell you that you matched but we're not going to tell you where until monday" crap. that is just hazing.
 
....for some intern successfully sues an internship for violating minimum wage laws. and file apa ethics charges against the internship admin for exploitation.

I was thinking about that when I was calculating the $9/hr figure. Bump that up to 50 hr per week (giving 2 wk vacation), and you are at $7.20/hr....which is getting hairy in a place like CA, where the minimum wage is $8/hr. I'm not sure how "exempt" status is calculated for this type of position, so it could be a moot point.

....i believe it should be taken one step further such that APA students are allowed to have match at an early date and then at a much later date non-APA students could have their match day. this would simply recreate the tiered system for admissions.

I think that would definitely motivate non-APA programs, though people will probably see it as "punishing" the students.

oh and do away with that stupid "we tell you that you matched but we're not going to tell you where until monday" crap. that is just hazing.

I HATE that. They want to give people time to prepare or whatever, but frankly it is rough on everyone involved.
 
At my internship, the psychiatry residents have it SO much better than we do. They have a receptionist to book their appointments and fill out their support paper work. The psychology interns have to do all this themselves. The residents have big, somewhat plush offices each with their own new computers. We are all crammed into a coat closet and share one computer. It is so unfair. However, I thought residents made $18K a year, too. Are you sure they get $40K plus?

Other crazy things I have noticed: Out of 4 supervisors, two are PhDs but two are MSWs. Psychologists are never called "doctor", they are called by their first name by the nurses, residents, and psychiatrists. However, psychiatrists are addressed as "doctor" by everybody. Even stranger is the fact that LPCs and LCSWs call themselves "psychologists" I even had one say that I made a wrong decision by getting my PhD because while I was spending all that time in school, she was out money and getting the same training I was while getting paid for it.. However, I have seen her at work, and her skills are very poor.

Other interns who work with me at this medical school have noted the same things at their rotations. However, while they think this cheapens the degree we are getting, I don't think it matters all that much...it's just a little annoying
 
edieb,

i would file a board complaint against every single one of those LPCs. and i have in a similar situation after an LPC blew me off after i explained to her that she was violating state law. funny enough, people start recognizing the title pretty darn fast when the admin gets a call from a regulatory body. as a side note, that person walks out of the room every time i am around.

and imo, psychologist have no one to blame but themselves for not getting the doctor title. i believe that as a group we try to sound informal, using all sorts of "outs". like the "dr. firstname" stuff (e.g., dr. phil). simply correcting people when it first happens makes things a lot easier. if you ignore it, then there is effectively no difference between you and a master's level person. then pts get confused and start referring to everyone as a psychologist. at grand rounds all phds are referred to as dr. i see no reason why this should not continue in the clinical arena.

imo, this kinda stuff also lowers internship and professional salaries.
 
The residents have big, somewhat plush offices each with their own new computers. We are all crammed into a coat closet and share one computer.

I've seen this frequently, and the reason I was told it was listed as part of their req, and the psychology site did not, so they were not accommodated. I'm not sure if that is the reason everywhere, but it seems pretty consistent that psychology interns get the shaft at most medical sites in regard to offices.
 
edieb,

i would file a board complaint against every single one of those LPCs. and i have in a similar situation after an LPC blew me off after i explained to her that she was violating state law. funny enough, people start recognizing the title pretty darn fast when the admin gets a call from a regulatory body. as a side note, that person walks out of the room every time i am around.

and imo, psychologist have no one to blame but themselves for not getting the doctor title. i believe that as a group we try to sound informal, using all sorts of "outs". like the "dr. firstname" stuff (e.g., dr. phil). simply correcting people when it first happens makes things a lot easier. if you ignore it, then there is effectively no difference between you and a master's level person. then pts get confused and start referring to everyone as a psychologist. at grand rounds all phds are referred to as dr. i see no reason why this should not continue in the clinical arena.

imo, this kinda stuff also lowers internship and professional salaries.

+1, You hit the nail on the head. I am so thankful that I am in the Military and will be going to a military internship. I am treated like a professional and I am thankful for it.

Mark
 
Because none of the psychologists have said anything to the MSWs or LPC for them calling themselves "psychologists", I don't know if what they are diong is really illegal. In fact, where I work, an LPC supervises the psychologists, even a psychologist who has two PhDs (one in developmental and one in clinical) is under the LPC.

It is very strange because I have seen do assessments, and he seems to know less than even the interns. He just throws out diagnoses like "schizoaffective" somewhat arbitrarily. His therapy is just things like "have you been taking your medicine/going to your appointments?"

When I first started there, I called one of the psychologists "Dr ___" She said we are really informal here, just call me "Melinda." However, I noticed that all the psychiatrists, including the residents, use "Dr" The only thing I can think of is that the med school must have some rule about calling a psychologists "Dr."

As far as the pay scale for residents versus interns, are you sure they make $40 or so a year while we make $18 or so? I just don't think that would be legal....I bet residents make the same amount and we are hearing rumors..
 
As far as the pay scale for residents versus interns, are you sure they make $40 or so a year while we make $18 or so? I just don't think that would be legal....I bet residents make the same amount and we are hearing rumors..

I don't see any reason why it would be illegal.

I think resident salary average is around 45k, and it scales up each year. Note that we're just talking average, with some programs paying more or less than that. Look into it if you want, but I'm 99% sure that's the case.

As for the "Dr." thing, I have somewhat mixed feelings. I can understand using it around patients, however I never intend to go by anything but my first name with colleagues. Maybe its a function of my desire to go into academia, which is less hierarchical than medical settings, but I just find it incredibly irritating and unnecessarily formal to go by titles with coworkers.
 
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As far as the pay scale for residents versus interns, are you sure they make $40 or so a year while we make $18 or so? I just don't think that would be legal....I bet residents make the same amount and we are hearing rumors..

Oh it's definitely around 40k for residents, and 18-25k for interns. Being in my first year in my clinical psych and doing research about my career options, the most dissapointing thing about this field to me is the lack of respect for people past the dissertation phase. After we have to scrape and struggle to prove ourselves worthy of internship, we then have to scrape and struggle to find supervised positions in order to get licensure. From what I read online, those are getting harder and harder to find as well. (Are internship and post doctoral supervised work kind of redundant or is that just me? Why don't they require one or the other? Or shorten the required hours for licensure?) It just seems that since internships are required parts of many degree paths, there should actually be efforts made to make sure they're actually available. Especially considering that's not the last step you must take to become a licensed psychologist. I do not want to be a medical student by any means, I just feel that the steps they take after finishing med school make more sense than what we go through after 5 years of proving ourselves clinically and academically. Being milked for my labor for little pay is okay by me during grad school, but beyond that. . .it does make me a little bitter. Okay, end rant.🙂
 
edieb,

it is undoubtedly illegal. psychologist is a protected term everywhere in the states. if i were you, i would tell your supervisor that you are witnessing something that is not only unethical but also illegal. i would give this in writing to your supervisor to cover your own behind. i would then document the hell out of it. then i would contact the state board and file a complaint. i would then immediately send appic an email telling them what is going on and that you fear retaliation (they are super nice ). i guarantee you this will freak out the hospital so much that they will immediately have a talk with the LPC, then talk to you and tell you that you have nothing to fear (because they fear losing their internship from the complaint).

as for the LPC supervising the psychologist: if this is just administrative stuff then it is no big deal. but if they are upbilling this person as a psychologist then there are committing insurance fraud. if it includes medicare, it would make it federal fraud.

or you could do nothing and risk having your name dragged down in a federal fraud case.


i am sorry you are in such a crap position. but i really think you shoudl be aware of the stakes here.
 
I think resident salary average is around 45k, and it scales up each year. Note that we're just talking average, with some programs paying more or less than that. Look into it if you want, but I'm 99% sure that's the case.
It IS the case.

However, the reason is not supply/demand.

The reason is that we are a profession with an identity and ego crisis.

Long ago, the profession divorced itself from the medical model and we have been paying dearly ever since.

Two main reasons:

1) Both medical and psychology interns are money losing practitioners for most clinical facilities. However, medicine shored up that financial black hole by securing federal funding for graduate medical education.

Take note of that designation because that brings us to ...

2) Psychology interns have not yet graduated. That's right boys and girls, you cannot be called "doctor" during internship because you AREN'T one. The residents are! They have secured a limited practice license during medical school. So -- assuming they pass, of course -- on graduation + 1 day, they are able to practice medicine under supervision. (Remember the first episode of Scrubs? J.D. was on his first day of internship and already on call overnight! We could never do that!)

Even most POST-docs cannot have that sort of authority. I am in NYS and have a limited practice permit. However, under Medicare rules, as a psychologist, I cannot practice without a licensed psychologist ON SITE and PRESENT during service delivery!

Bottom line, class ... we did this to ourselves!


As for the "Dr." thing, I have somewhat mixed feelings. I can understand using it around patients, however I never intend to go by anything but my first name with colleagues. Maybe its a function of my desire to go into academia, which is less hierarchical than medical settings, but I just find it incredibly irritating and unnecessarily formal to go by titles with coworkers.

You will find that medical schools usually start indoctrinating students to expect to be called "doctor" on Day 1 (even though it is technically improper). In contrast, we get to our last year of our programs and we are still being ordered to not let anyone call us doctor.

I have graduated and am in my post-doc year, working in an assisted living facility. My supervisor and I rant long and loud about how we are not treated as "real" doctors. We are on site and present 5 days a week and are given a fraction of the attention that the physicians who visit one day a week.

We literally have to track our patients down. (The physicians have groups of patients brought to wait so they have an uninterrupted flow of patients.)
Unless there is an active crisis, we are told nothing about significant changes in our patients' status. To top things off, recently there was a published study which discovered that seniors who are addressed as "honey" or "sweetie" have a diminished life expectancy. I shared that article with some of the staff and one of the "case managers" (they have no training or credential) told my supervisor she was angry that I shared the article -- because she (self-admittedly) engages in that behavior constantly. (I have never heard her dismiss anything a physician has said.)

Again folks, we did this to ourselves because we didn't want to be like the "egotistical" physicians!

Best of luck to you all!
 
I made 18K on internship and 30s on postdoc. Yes, med students make more, substantially more. You somewhat bridge the gap in postdoc, depending on where you go. But, medical doctors make more during their professional careers on average as well in most specialties compared with most of our specialties. A first year doc post residency will be will be well into the 6 figures range. Some of you are being a little short-sighted though. Take a standard clinical psychologist, for example. They go to internship and one year of postdoc and make 18,000 and 30,000, respectively. Then, they get a job making around $50,000 to $60,000 the next year. The typical third year medical resident is at around $50,000 at that point and will be for year four as well. Now they'll get a big bump once they are through, but that's an issue of numbers and lobbying in our field.

I had my own office on internship and postdoc. Faculty offices were not any nicer at either location (saving the department chairs). I never saw a resident's office. Scheduling and billing at both locations were handled by support staff. Medical insurance/benefits etc. . . were "free."

I was called doctor on postdoc by everyone and through most of my internship after I finished my dissertation.


We have a serious supply problem that is created by professional schools (see the market driven solution T4Change copied above. . . I've seen that before on a professional school organization website advocated by a department chair from a professional school). I think JockNerd is correct. If we increase internship supply, professional schools will increase output. Appic/APA/et al. need to broaden their question to include, "Do we need more psychologists in the marketplace?" APA should limit the # of spots allowed for accredidation and control our numbers as the AMA does their numbers of physicians.



As for the LPCs and MSWs. I never had an LPC or MSW supervisor. I can't imagine a situation where that would be appropriate. The morale of our field in some places is low. The general attitude of LPC and MSW folks seems to be that we're the same thing with two years extra coursework. This is a false notion.

I know that getting an internship is more difficult these days, but, folks, pay attention to these things. If you don't like professional schools, don't go to internship sites that have PsyDs on faculty or in their intern ranks. Ask who does supervision. If there are LPCs and MSWs in the mix, don't go there. Report it to APA/APPIC if they are accredited sites.


Be an advocate for your field. Don't be passive. Participate. We are losing a numbers game. There are too many psychologists (in my opinion), we are being over-run by professional schools, and yet, we are substantially outnumbered and outlobbied by midlevel providers (social workers, masters level counselors). It's very sobering. I don't think I would ever recommend a student to go into clinical psychology or mental health in general.
 
in a rare move,i agree with jon snow. but, i still think there are tons of incredible opportunities in clinical psych. there is simply more competition. to thrive, i think many should seek opportunities (which i believe is not a skill set taught to clinical psych students). the old days of graduating and having an almost guarantee of making 6 figures are long gone. this is due to an increase in supply. however, imo there are many many opportunities to make a lot of money if you are willing to do the work.
 
I'm not going to deny that many of the professional school class sizes are out of hand. I've seen my school grow at an alarming rate over the past 5 years. Most students aren't happy about it at all. I'd love to see caps put on class sizes. Has anyone found a breakdown of the # of licensed PhD's vs. PsyD's in the workplace?

This is an honest question. And maybe it's been addressed here already and I've missed it. But what do you all think is driving the massive increases at these schools? My school is not-for-profit, which I believe most are (except Alliant and Argosy?). But I can't help think that dollar signs are motivating the growth. The story is we need more clinicians, but I'm not sure I buy it.

There's this report from the bureau of labor statistics, that states that psych will grow faster than average through 2016:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos056.htm
 
Some may be non-profit, but expansion still is to their advantage. Numbers are political power. If you wanted to design something to become the defacto standard, how would you do it? I think I'd replicate as fast as possible.

Also, non-profits like money just as much as for-profits.
 
Its been awhile since I've studied business law, but if I recall correctly there are vital distinctions between not-for-profit and non-profit. Not-for-profits have much less restriction on how they can use the money internally to expand, build things, pay employees, etc.
 
Yeah, my understanding of the for-profit/not-for-profit things was just that not-for-profits can't be building a big monetary fund. I don't think anything stops them from paying directors and full-time faculty lots of money.
 
The story is we need more clinicians, but I'm not sure I buy it.

I definitely agree with you if we're talking about Chicago, DC, New York, etc. However, there is definitely a need for psychologists in HPSA rural (and other underserved) areas. I know there are a few incentives out there for working in these areas (NHSC scholarship and NIH for example), but it just seems to me that the type of folks who go to grad school for psych are not those who would like to work in a rural area unless there is a university nearby. A prof at a local university mentioned that, while many students at his psy.d program have the intentions of going back to their rural hometown to practice, most of them end up not wanting to leave the comfortable life of the suburbs nor the ivory tower.

Combine this with the fact that most professional schools are in heavily populated cities and you just add to both problems (of continued oversaturation of psychologists in certain areas and a continued lack of psychologists in areas that desperately need us). I attend a professional school, so I'm not bashing them, I'm just being honest. I do commend my school for intentionally taking less in my cohort, but there are still 31 Psy.D students and almost 40 MA's. Most of whom probably wont leave the suburbs.

Ending my rant, I think we need to look at how we can meet the needs of those areas that are actually in need while being mindful of not ruining our profession in the process. I know that the Universities of Florida, Utah, and Wyoming are doing some good things in this area but others need to join in.
 
There are some really great comments on here, especially the one about how if we make schools w. low match rates generate more internships spots, they will do so but, at the same time, increase their class size. If you want to make a difference, and feel so inclined, you may want to e-mail your comments to Dr. Baker, who is a member of APPIC and in-charge of finding a solution to this. His e-mail is :

[email protected]

As an side: When I was interviewing for internship, I remember seeing a fair number of people who were literally 60+ years of age interviewing for internship slots. Not to be mean, but to be realistic, it was likely that these people were not going to match. If I recall correctly, all of them were from Argosy in Washington, D.C. and Argosy HI.

These schools had to know that significant age-ism exists in psychology (and other fields) and the odds that these older students would match was next to nothing. I thought this was unconscionable.
 
psyds are not the only ones with large class sizes. there are several large class phd programs as well (e.g., UT school psych, University of Florida, etc).
 
psyds are not the only ones with large class sizes. there are several large class phd programs as well (e.g., UT school psych, University of Florida, etc).

UF? You have an interesting definition of "large."
 
PSYDR said:
psyds are not the only ones with large class sizes. there are several large class phd programs as well (e.g., UT school psych, University of Florida, etc).

From the APPIC Match Survey (part 3):

4. Size of doctoral class (i.e., number of students who
began doctoral program in the same year as respondent)
Ph.D. Psy.D.
1 - 10 students 74% 8%
11 - 20 students 17% 21%
21 - 30 students 4% 26%
31 - 40 students 2% 10%
41 - 50 students 2% 9%
51 or more 2% 26%

So in other words, 71% PsyDs have classes of 21 or more, whereas 10% of Ph.Ds do. And over a quarter of people from Psy.D. programs have classes of 51 or more students! That's some pretty solid evidence that Psy.D. programs are cranking out students.
 
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psychanaon: i did not say that psyd programs are not the source of large class sizes. i said they are not the only only source. which your citation pretty much supports.


jocknerd: UF website states they take between 5- 30 students. 30 sounds large to me when compared to the 2-3 class sizes from other phd programs. but then again, i was unaware of the 51+ size which sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.
 
psychanaon: i did not say that psyd programs are not the source of large class sizes. i said they are not the only only source. which your citation pretty much supports.

This is *exactly* the sort of "let's pretend there isn't a problem" I foresaw in my first post in this thread. 71% of programs vs. 10%. I'm willing to bet that a portion of those 10% are the professional schools that still do PhDs. Really, I just can't see the reasoning behind pretending that there isn't a problem here.

jocknerd: UF website states they take between 5- 30 students. 30 sounds large to me when compared to the 2-3 class sizes from other phd programs. but then again, i was unaware of the 51+ size which sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.
Really? Counseling full disclosure data says cohorts are <10. Clinical full disclosure data says they take about 15, fund them all, and place about 98% in internship. This is a profile entirely different from a program that takes 15, funds 0, and places 8. Again, I get loyalty to one's degree, but I really just see this as avoiding good evidence that's meaningful to the profession.
 
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Well -- I've been away from these boards for a week or so (why? because I'm running around like a maniac getting my internship applications together), so I just found this thread.

I am SO in agreement that the whole internship system in clinical psychology is broken and needs a major overhaul. IMO, doctors would never stand for the training system we psychologists tolerate year after year. The low money stinks, but even worse is that well-qualified applicants must submit to a process that is arbitrary and unfair. Worst of all -- we don't even get to call ourselves "psychologists" until we jump through this last hoop. Working hard is one thing; working hard and then having no assurance that your efforts will be rewarded is something else altogether. What a messed up system!:meanie:
 
jocknerd:

to be clear, i did not state that the either psyd or phd systems are to blame for any of these problems. I have also not denied that these problems exist. i do not doubt there is a problem in internship and i have not said so. i also agree that professional schools probably share the majority of blame with this problem and have not denied this. however i do think that there are some phd programs that play a role in this problem as well, which i stated. i believe the data supports this statement. i also believe that i stated this in a fairly even handed manner and clarified when others challenged.

how you read my original one sentence comment as a denial of a problem is somewhat baffling to me.
 
jocknerd:

to be clear, i did not state that the either psyd or phd systems are to blame for any of these problems. I have also not denied that these problems exist. i do not doubt there is a problem in internship and i have not said so. i also agree that professional schools probably share the majority of blame with this problem and have not denied this. however i do think that there are some phd programs that play a role in this problem as well, which i stated. i believe the data supports this statement. i also believe that i stated this in a fairly even handed manner and clarified when others challenged.

how you read my original one sentence comment as a denial of a problem is somewhat baffling to me.

Well, I think if you read the thread, you'll find that prior to your post no one really focused on a PhD/PsyD differentiation, but rather on "schools that take too many students," and that these were primarily professional schools. Whether the pro. school offers a PhD or a PsyD is really trivial. I perceived ignoring the problem because I perceived a shift from the meaningful distinction ("schools that take a lot of students are killing us") to a less meaningful one (defensiveness over the status of PsyDs). Turning the thread into another PsyD v. PhD thread is useless. Continuing to discuss ways to fix schools that take too many students and contribute to the internship match problem is useful (I'm emailing Dr. Baker this weekend, myself).
 
I e-mailed Dr Baker in the past about this situation and found him very, very receptive. I am sure you will, too.

I am pretty sure that people like us contacting him caused APPIC to recommend that professional schools that are causing part of the problem fix it by curtailing class sizes and/or creating more internships. We need to keep the pressure on APPIC and APA to implement the only true solution: to force professinal schools to decrease class sizes.

It is urgent we all contact APPIC for if this problem is not fixed, our salaries are going to keep on decreasing, as will quality of patient care.
 
in a rare move,i agree with jon snow.

I find it amusing how often I get this statement.



I think emailing/contacting folks at APPIC and APA that might have power to change things is a good step. Psychology needs more advocacy and lobbying participation from the right people, namely, the non-professional school crowd not hell-bent on crashing our field.
 
....I perceived a shift from the meaningful distinction ("schools that take a lot of students are killing us") to a less meaningful one (defensiveness over the status of PsyDs). Turning the thread into another PsyD v. PhD thread is useless. Continuing to discuss ways to fix schools that take too many students and contribute to the internship match problem is useful (I'm emailing Dr. Baker this weekend, myself).


Agreed.

I think the problem is both on the front and back end. Cutting spots from programs that can't place, and then increasing APA-acred. programs on the back end. I think this is also an opportunity to re-evaluate what accreditation really means....as I think there needs to be uniformity in the training. Medical programs seem to do this well, but I think the APA dropped the ball.
 
I definitely agree with you if we're talking about Chicago, DC, New York, etc. However, there is definitely a need for psychologists in HPSA rural (and other underserved) areas. I know there are a few incentives out there for working in these areas (NHSC scholarship and NIH for example), but it just seems to me that the type of folks who go to grad school for psych are not those who would like to work in a rural area unless there is a university nearby. A prof at a local university mentioned that, while many students at his psy.d program have the intentions of going back to their rural hometown to practice, most of them end up not wanting to leave the comfortable life of the suburbs nor the ivory tower.

Combine this with the fact that most professional schools are in heavily populated cities and you just add to both problems (of continued oversaturation of psychologists in certain areas and a continued lack of psychologists in areas that desperately need us). I attend a professional school, so I'm not bashing them, I'm just being honest. I do commend my school for intentionally taking less in my cohort, but there are still 31 Psy.D students and almost 40 MA's. Most of whom probably wont leave the suburbs.

Ending my rant, I think we need to look at how we can meet the needs of those areas that are actually in need while being mindful of not ruining our profession in the process. I know that the Universities of Florida, Utah, and Wyoming are doing some good things in this area but others need to join in.

I agree with you a lot here. I'm in Chicago, and I think if you took a poll of people in my program asking if they planned on practicing in a rural town, a very small percentage would say yes. Most will either stay here or move back to the cities they came from. But there is a huge need, say 150 miles from here, for psychologists. I met a clinician from down state and he was the ONLY clinician in his town with a population of about 2,000. Never mind the surrounding communities. I also treated a patient who lived about 2 hours from Chicago and would commute in for other health care treatment. We did a lot of telephone therapy, and I'd see him maybe once every 3 months.

Many of us acknowledge the problem, but few (including myself) are willing to pick up and move. I'm curious if the saturation in the urban areas will eventually force people out where they are really needed, and meet the supposed goals of those who advocate these class sizes.
 
I'm in Chicago, and I think if you took a poll of people in my program asking if they planned on practicing in a rural town, a very small percentage would say yes. Most will either stay here or move back to the cities they came from. But there is a huge need, say 150 miles from here, for psychologists.

I interned in NW Illinois (2 hours due west of Chicago) and yes, there was a dire shortage of psychologists.

After internship, I returned to NY.

I joined an agency which places clinicians in adult care facilities. Because of the shortage of psychologists pretty much everywhere but NYC/Buffalo/Rochester, I have to travel 100 miles for post-doc supervision.

However, I am nearing the end of my post-doc and already have a placement waiting at the community hospital in the town where I live. During the meet-and-greet, I was asked if I intended to establish a private practice. Not wanting to sound greedy, I gave a non-comittal answer. One of the unit directors laughed and said that they WANTED me to have a private practice because when they discharged patients from the hospital, there is no one available to conduct that follow up.

My agency is SO eager for me to begin working at the hospital their workaround of the ridiculous Medicare supervisory requirements is to have me start and not bill Medicare for my services.

Mind you, I am not living in some podunk backwater outpost. I live in Central NY -- between Albany and Syracuse in a population region of 150,000. Even here there is a absolute dearth of psychologists.

Yes, scraping by during graduate school, internship, and the unpleasant commute for post-doc have all been distasteful. But soon I will be living and working in a good area as pretty much the only act in town!

Steve
 
As usual I can see much of the energy in this forum focused on elitist scapegoating of professional schools. These fratricidal discussions obscure our real problems as psychologists - the fact that we're being displaced by lesser trained clinicians (MFT's/LPC's, etc.) and financially and professional outgunned by psychiatry/the medical field which receives large funding by the pharmaceutical industry.

Just as we know "Drill baby drill!" won't solve our energy problems, the problem of psychologist supply/demand is much more complex and multi-dimensional. Professional schools are only one small part of the problem here. Even if the numbers of psychologists were smaller, even if psychologists went to university PhD programs and professional schools didn't exist, we would still be facing the same problems we do now.The general public and even the majority of the medical field don't understand the value of our unique training as psychologists and see talk therapy as an interesting curiosity at best. The treatment of mental illness in this country is dominated by a medical model; an essentialist, biological based approach that completely ignores mental process (something which psychologists are exquisitely trained in).

A public awareness campaign is needed to inform the public of what it is that makes psychologists professionally valuable, what makes therapy useful in the treatment of mental disorders, as well what makes psychological testing or program evaluation valuable. This kind of activity should be conducted by APA, which unfortunately has been reluctant to take political action (just look at what happened with APA's response to Abu Ghraib/Guantanemo Bay). Thus, it may be left in the hands of statewide or local psychological associations, to make our voices heard as psychologists. For us to move ahead professionally, we need to market our talents more aggressively, and broaden our clinical applications into market areas which are untapped.

IMO the solution will require us to flex our professional muscles as psychologists (regardless of what kind of doctorate degree we have, or where we went to school) and engage politically, focusing our efforts with legal mandates. With our training as psychologists, we're focused on resolving conflict, and tend to avoid sticking up for ourselves as a professional body and engaging in political action. We have to speak up at this point in the history of our profession and make our voices heard - the lack of internships is only one of many problems we psychologists face in our field.
 
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Great post CleverHans. I couldn't agree more that the internship/demand imbalance is just one aspect of the larger problem. IMO, psychologists as a group have traditionally been reluctant to champion their unique value. Maybe it's that the temperament of the person who chooses psychology predisposes them to prefer their lab or therapy room to more public forums where advocacy occurs. At least this is true for me. In fact, my dislike for advocacy is what drove me out of the legal profession into psychology (lol)!
Still, if we ignore the need to highlight our worth in the marketplace (and continue to fight among ourselves) we are surely doomed.👎
 
I agree that psychology does a very poor job of legislative representation, but unfortunately the APA has failed to do much to change these short-comings. I've lobbied at the state level, and I plan on becoming more involved when able, though I/we are fighting against the apathy of the masses in psychology who do not do anything to further our professional standing or at least protect against the erosion of services. We are weak "on the Hill" and our counter-parts at the MA/MS and MD/DO have taken advantage of better organization, funding, and implementation of policy. The Inequity of Internship is merely the most recent example of a failings as a group.
 
I agree that lobbying is weak. But I disagree that looking critically at the problems we're bringing to the situation in terms of program quality are "scapegoating." It's not scapegoating, it's evaluation of what the field is doing to itself and the identification of problem areas that we can change. Like others, I think we should improve our lobbying. But I think we should cut out weaknesses first.

As for having a problem with what people seem to perceive as "in-fighting," again this is something I just don't really understand. I'm supposed to pretend I'm cool with programs calling themselves Blah Blah School of Psychology that take 100 grad students, charge them 100k for a MFT degree, and then don't even match 60% of them? This is a serious problem and we should fix it. I'm not going to act like it isn't a problem in order to spare some apparently quite fragile egos.
 
As for having a problem with what people seem to perceive as "in-fighting," again this is something I just don't really understand. I'm supposed to pretend I'm cool with programs calling themselves Blah Blah School of Psychology that take 100 grad students, charge them 100k for a MFT degree, and then don't even match 60% of them? This is a serious problem and we should fix it. I'm not going to act like it isn't a problem in order to spare some apparently quite fragile egos.

why do you care so much what a school calls itself; in terms of quality of clinicians there is no difference between psyd and phd, or blah blah school vs supposed elitist school. I've known many doctoral psychologists from professional schools who are excellent. I'm not sure you even know what you're talking about - have you ever met someone from a professional school?

The main problem again is the lack of cajones psychologists have as a whole. Law schools and medical schools charge well over 100k and are "professional schools" as well. The problem is that the general public doesn't see the difference between psychologists and MFTs, LPCs, whatever.
 
And yet when people have the cajones to call out schools with embarassingly low standards, that's a bad thing. We want to talk about cajones to stand up for political reform in DC - we're apparently lacking the cajones to even stand up to those within our own organization and force these schools to either shape up, or shut down.

No one is saying we're doing a good job of lobbying. In fact, I agree with the vast majority of what you've said.

However, the original topic is about supply/demand of internships. You have to be kidding yourself if you think professional schools don't play a prominent role in that, though they certainly are not 100% to blame.
 
I found a site where the TD got their degree in 2008. Must be a typo or else we are really stooping low to get new sites into APPIC!
 
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