For all the experts out there, which one would you choose between Duke and U of Michigan for General Surgery residency? I know it's kinda dumb question to ask but I wanted to get the general perception about these programs purely based on academic reputation and surgical training without worrying about location or weather. I know different people weigh various factors differently while making a final decision but I thought it wouldn't hurt to hear what other people think. Thanks.
Duke vs U of Michigan
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They are both excellent programs with great reputations.
But if you are looking for which program carries the most cache in terms of surgical residency, its Duke, IMHO.
Not that this means I recommend it over Michigan, but you asked which had the better reputation.
Please see multiple threads here about the reputation Duke has for "challenging" its residents (although I suspect that the response from the poster above is worth a thousand words about why he says Michigan is better).
But if you are looking for which program carries the most cache in terms of surgical residency, its Duke, IMHO.
Not that this means I recommend it over Michigan, but you asked which had the better reputation.
Please see multiple threads here about the reputation Duke has for "challenging" its residents (although I suspect that the response from the poster above is worth a thousand words about why he says Michigan is better).
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I wasn't actually expecting Klooless to address my question...but I would have been pleasantly surprised if he/she did.
But after interviewing, I think these two are heavy hitters when it comes to the research options, the clinical training, and faculty. As they said at Duke, 'the world is your oyster' and after speaking with residents and some attendings at my institution, I'd have to say ditto for Michigan. Both of these programs are in my top 3 (as of right now).
But after interviewing, I think these two are heavy hitters when it comes to the research options, the clinical training, and faculty. As they said at Duke, 'the world is your oyster' and after speaking with residents and some attendings at my institution, I'd have to say ditto for Michigan. Both of these programs are in my top 3 (as of right now).
Thanks Klooless, WS and Logistic.
Logistic, if you don't mind me asking, are you ranking Duke ahead of Michigan? Feel free to PM your answer or not answer at all.
Would welcome thoughts from other folks too. We (applicants) benefit tremendously from the perspectives of people who have more insight into academic surgery.
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Both programs are exceptional, and trying to determine which one is better based on reputation is really just splitting hairs. In the big picture it will not matter; training at Duke vs. Michigan will not affect or limit your future career opportunities.
In my opinion, as these are both top-notch programs, you should rank them based on how well you got along with the residents, location, fit, etc. Your personal happiness is much more important than any minor perceived difference in reputation.
In my opinion, as these are both top-notch programs, you should rank them based on how well you got along with the residents, location, fit, etc. Your personal happiness is much more important than any minor perceived difference in reputation.
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These are two storied programs with long traditions of excellence. Faculty at both institutions are often leaders in their fields. Their residents are some of the top applicants every year. Of these two, pick the place that you liked better, no matter how trivial the reason. They are close enough that any trivial advantage that you could imagine for either reputation wise is mostly going to be at most regional in perception, with the edge going to the institution which is closer to you.
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Sorry it's taken me so long to get back on here (and hence, to reply)...I work a lot.
Not dodging your question (not really the dodging type), just didn't get around to reading it until now.
I'm sure if you're at the point of tossing around the Dukes v. Michigans, you're a relatively good catch. So I hope you end up at the place that puts your potential to greatest use.
In my opinion (others might disagree publicly), cameraderie is lacking within Duke general surgery; training at Duke can thus be quite an isolating experience. Otherwise, it's quite a traditional program (exceptionally so for it's youth); as such, operating is something that comes with experience (rather than operating as a young buck to gain said experience). That the surgery department at Duke is the only department that mandates its first and second year residents to wear short coats as the medical and PA students do, as well as white pants, is telling; It speaks to an air of extreme hierarchy. Etc, etc....
At the end of the day, you're going to become a great general surgery if that's what you work hard to become, whether you train at Duke, at Michigan, or at (insert renowned pedigree here). The next 7 years of your life are kind of a big deal, so take the advice of everyone you encounter (though you may not realize the gravity of the advice at this early stage) and try to Match at the place that's the best fit for you (I fully realize the inherent difficulty given the "Match" process).
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Having interviewed at both and being a current resident at one, I want to weigh in. I personally have to disagree about the camaraderie lacking at Duke. The friendliness and cohesiveness of the Duke Surgery residents are one of the things that stood out during my interviews. My fellow residents are one of the things that have gotten me through during the hard times over the past two years.
With regards to the white pants and short coats, it is a tradition. I personally hate them and can't wait to burn them in June, but there are many in the program who do love them. I have never been mistaken for a medical student because of the length of my coat. You may see it as a sign of hierarchy, but I would argue that most surgical residencies are somewhat hierarchical by their design.
You may also want to consider several non-program related factors. The high in NC today was 63 degrees. Also, the cost of living is nuch lower in Durham, NC than in Ann Arbor.
Good luck with the match!
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Nearly amused....
Not so amused, however, by the fact that a surgery resident attempted suicide 2 years ago in this exceptionally loving environment filled with listening ears and shoulders....
Ask the intern who quit in October how impossible it was to envision himself finishing out the year, which meant forfeiting a surgical career altogether.
Ask the second year resident who appealed to the chairman of surgery himself just four months ago about feeling alienated as a junior resident.
In fact, ask anyone who didn't dare show up on your interview weekend because they didn't feel the need to lie to you.
This is surgery. Generally speaking, we're not really notorious for being the Kum ba yah singing, hand-holding type. But beyond this, some places are whispered to be malignant FOR A REASON. Though chairmen die, they've successfully trained dozens who remain...who keep their legacy and traditions alive... Let's keep it real y'all....
[/Enter Logistic to claim this is biased and inaccurate]
This is the second post in the recent past confirming that these old school programs continue to earn their reputation. I hope the med students are reading these posts closely and taking them to heart.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't train there. As someone mentioned in another thread, some people thrive off of malignancy and work well in that environment. Just don't act surprised when the prophecy is fulfilled.
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