hourly wage in pathology?

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Nilf

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While skimming job adds, I've seen a few of them that advertise "hourly pay". I have mixed feelings about this. In my mind's eye I see galleys, chains, bent backs of pathologists toiling to meet the quota and a supervisor swinging cat o'nine. No partnership.

On the other hand, might not be so bad. Hourly pay means you are not pressured to plow through a number of cases in a given time slot. As long as nobody is breathing on your back, you can give each case the maximum attention and effort it deserves. The pace you work at will not affect your pay, and it might appeal to some. Your employer can't abuse you by giving you ever increasing caseload.

Thoughts/comments? Anybody who's been there done that?

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While skimming job adds, I've seen a few of them that advertise "hourly pay". I have mixed feelings about this. In my mind's eye I see galleys, chains, bent backs of pathologists toiling to meet the quota and a supervisor swinging cat o'nine. No partnership.

On the other hand, might not be so bad. Hourly pay means you are not pressured to plow through a number of cases in a given time slot. As long as nobody is breathing on your back, you can give each case the maximum attention and effort it deserves. The pace you work at will not affect your pay, and it might appeal to some. Your employer can't abuse you by giving you ever increasing caseload.

Thoughts/comments? Anybody who's been there done that?

You can find more stuff out on the hourly pay of pathologists by calling a staffing company...the big name escapes me at the moment...

But anyway you would be shocked at what the hourly rate is currently, somewhere around 100/hour, which works out to 75% of California plumbers/electricians/appliance repair men and only 50% of California non-high end run of the mill prostitutes....and it only comes out to about 40% more than a CHP deputy with no college education.
 
You can find more stuff out on the hourly pay of pathologists by calling a staffing company...the big name escapes me at the moment...

But anyway you would be shocked at what the hourly rate is currently, somewhere around 100/hour, which works out to 75% of California plumbers/electricians/appliance repair men and only 50% of California non-high end run of the mill prostitutes....and it only comes out to about 40% more than a CHP deputy with no college education.

That comes out to a 8 hr work day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year to a 200,000 dollar salary. I cannot imagine that so many plumbers, mill prostitutes, etc make 200,000 a year with 2 weeks vacation. Is that true?
 
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That comes out to a 8 hr work day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year to a 200,000 dollar salary. I cannot imagine that so many plumbers, mill prostitutes, etc make 200,000 a year with 2 weeks vacation. Is that true?

Yeah it is. And 200k is less money than you should be paid.
 
That comes out to a 8 hr work day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year to a 200,000 dollar salary. I cannot imagine that so many plumbers, mill prostitutes, etc make 200,000 a year with 2 weeks vacation. Is that true?

Yes it is true in the sense of an hourly wage. Usually prostitutes dont put in standard 8 hour days so its comparing apples and oranges when you look at yearly salary. Same degree as plumbers, many plumbers will do a big contract job for 3-4 months/year then do house call work, all the while selling products out of a store front (like kitchen crap they have at home depot) so in that sense they are very similar to Eye docs and dermatologists who push product in their office to make additional coin.

The key determinant is our progressive tax code. If there was a flat tax then the steady income of a pathologist would win out but its not.
Lets say:
hooker charges 200 bucks/hr and works steadily for roughly 15 hours a week, annualized comes to 156000/year
a pathologist receives 100/hr but works 40hrs a week/ annualized is 208000.

Pathologist receives health ins, 401K, dental...+additional untaxed 48000 in income

Pathologist pays 9.3% for state taxes and another effective tax rate of say 25% (total given all progressive brackets) for a total rate of 34.3%

Pathologist take home 136656+additional untaxed benefits=184656 (annualized NOT real salary take home)


As you can CLEARLY see a hooker with no education is making 84.5% of the salary of someone with 13+ years of post-secondary education and working only 37.5% as much.

The system is patently broke.
 
...and it only comes out to about 40% more than a CHP deputy with no college education.

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The key determinant is our progressive tax code. If there was a flat tax then the steady income of a pathologist would win out but its not.
Lets say:
hooker charges 200 bucks/hr and works steadily for roughly 15 hours a week, annualized comes to 156000/year
a pathologist receives 100/hr but works 40hrs a week/ annualized is 208000


As you can CLEARLY see a hooker with no education is making 84.5% of the salary of someone with 13+ years of post-secondary education and working only 37.5% as much.

The system is patently broke.

Well I gotta disagree. You are clearly talking about the cream of the crop hooker, proabably in the top 10% of all hooker incomes since most hookers probably charge like $20/BJ and would doubfully make the kind of cash you are implying. $200 may buy you an all-nighter with an average ho but for that kind of hourly salary you're probably talking about a hawt easter-European import with serious bills to pay (to secure her daddy's release from prison, of course). But things might be different over there in LA. Plus, Hookers do have lots of training, so it's really not fair to compare our training to theirs. Hooker training usually starts out at age 9 or so, and includes intensive courses in beat-downs, drunken daddy groping, and abandonment.
 
Well I gotta disagree. You are clearly talking about the cream of the crop hooker, proabably in the top 10% of all hooker incomes since most hookers probably charge like $20/BJ and would doubfully make the kind of cash you are implying. $200 may buy you an all-nighter with an average ho but for that kind of hourly salary you're probably talking about a hawt easter-European import with serious bills to pay (to secure her daddy's release from prison, of course). But things might be different over there in LA. Plus, Hookers do have lots of training, so it's really not fair to compare our training to theirs. Hooker training usually starts out at age 9 or so, and includes intensive courses in beat-downs, drunken daddy groping, and abandonment.

Yeah..no, I actually had a roomate who did a PhD thesis in California prostitution (and Im completely serious..). A large percentage of hookers have no history of being abused at all and far less half do any drugs more serious than weed. The cost analysis in my post is absolutely correct. What is even more crazy is when you look at stripper pay, which in some places actually far exceeds hooker compensation.
 
can we please be realistic...life is not fair...you, or pathologists don't DESERVE anything...if you wanted to make more money you should have picked another job...

anyway, hookers should get that amount of money...they are getting plowed everyday by dirty old dudes...they have jobs no one else wants to do

drug dealers make millions...and they don't have college educations...haven't you seen the wire

Tony Soprano was rich and never got a college education

anyway...if you want to make real loot, become a pathologist hooker...salary is about 325k after taxes

Yes it is true in the sense of an hourly wage. Usually prostitutes dont put in standard 8 hour days so its comparing apples and oranges when you look at yearly salary. Same degree as plumbers, many plumbers will do a big contract job for 3-4 months/year then do house call work, all the while selling products out of a store front (like kitchen crap they have at home depot) so in that sense they are very similar to Eye docs and dermatologists who push product in their office to make additional coin.

The key determinant is our progressive tax code. If there was a flat tax then the steady income of a pathologist would win out but its not.
Lets say:
hooker charges 200 bucks/hr and works steadily for roughly 15 hours a week, annualized comes to 156000/year
a pathologist receives 100/hr but works 40hrs a week/ annualized is 208000.

Pathologist receives health ins, 401K, dental...+additional untaxed 48000 in income

Pathologist pays 9.3% for state taxes and another effective tax rate of say 25% (total given all progressive brackets) for a total rate of 34.3%

Pathologist take home 136656+additional untaxed benefits=184656 (annualized NOT real salary take home)


As you can CLEARLY see a hooker with no education is making 84.5% of the salary of someone with 13+ years of post-secondary education and working only 37.5% as much.

The system is patently broke.
 
I'm not so sure about the $100. It's closer to $200 per hour ($180?). It probably all depends on the situation. I know the podlab that tried to recruit me for part time said it was about $180 per hour. I think they sort of compute that based on an estimate amount of time it takes to look at one slide, and how many slides they get.

I think you get paid by the case, not by the hour. It just sounds more ethical to advertise "by the hour" than "by the case." But who knows, I didn't pursue it.
 
can we please be realistic...life is not fair...you, or pathologists don't DESERVE anything...if you wanted to make more money you should have picked another job...

anyway, hookers should get that amount of money...they are getting plowed everyday by dirty old dudes...they have jobs no one else wants to do

drug dealers make millions...and they don't have college educations...haven't you seen the wire

Tony Soprano was rich and never got a college education

anyway...if you want to make real loot, become a pathologist hooker...salary is about 325k after taxes

Feel free to sell yourself short. Also, when the physician payment system is squeezed for the 343rd time, feel free to pat yourself on the back for not standing up for the worth of doctors.

now, my favorite parable

- A rich businessman was choking on his food at a restaurant. A physician rushed over and gave him the Heimlich, saving his life. The businessman insisted on paying the doctor, telling him to name the price. The doctor said, "I'll take half of what you would have paid me when the food was still in your throat."

Know your own worth.
 
are you ******ed...no one is selling themselves short...I'm just saying, did you go into pathology with the expectation of making 500k a year...if you did, well...don't know what to tell you

what you make is what the market will pay you...it is the same with any service, commodity, etc

if you want to make more money...stop complaining and make yourself more valuable...because obviously nobody wants you that much

Feel free to sell yourself short. Also, when the physician payment system is squeezed for the 343rd time, feel free to pat yourself on the back for not standing up for the worth of doctors.

now, my favorite parable

- A rich businessman was choking on his food at a restaurant. A physician rushed over and gave him the Heimlich, saving his life. The businessman insisted on paying the doctor, telling him to name the price. The doctor said, "I'll take half of what you would have paid me when the food was still in your throat."

Know your own worth.
 
are you ******ed...no one is selling themselves short...I'm just saying, did you go into pathology with the expectation of making 500k a year...if you did, well...don't know what to tell you

what you make is what the market will pay you...it is the same with any service, commodity, etc

if you want to make more money...stop complaining and make yourself more valuable...because obviously nobody wants you that much

I don't think anyone said they required 500k a year to work, but the hourly rate of $100 is a bit low. Especially if there is no route for increases in pay and increases in vacation time. You are joining a profession not working in a vacuum. Pathologists accepting lower pay will dictate what the market pays. Jobs that need to be done that are not filled will require increases in pay scale. I.E. If you sell yourself short, you short others in the field.
 
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Scurred, you are being an arse. No one is saying anything about fairness, what we are discussing is the PER HOUR WAGE that a boarded pathologist gets.

No one is saying pathologists should get 1000/hr, but at least as well compensated as a local plumber would be a start.

The 100/hr is pretty much dead on if someone wants to call Comphealth and get today's official rate to confirm.....

My end point is that society NEEDS to appropriately compensate certain high value tasks while leveling the playing field for those who can escape taxation (hence the hooker comparison). Obama RAISING taxes on law abiding citizens already paying (and esp. those of us without the ability to do complex sheltering scams) while limiting deductions is a big step backwards.
 
I just got a call today from a locum tenems recruiter for a dermatopathologist position for 2 weeks in June with a pay rate of $700/day. I turned it down.
 
...I'm just saying, did you go into pathology with the expectation of making 500k a year...if you did, well...don't know what to tell you
Is 500k that unreasonable? I would guess that the average is maybe half that but the average hours per week is also half of some specialties. Is it that difficult to find work 80 hours a week in path and be compensated proportionally to the paths working 40?
 
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I just got a call today from a locum tenems recruiter for a dermatopathologist position for 2 weeks in June with a pay rate of $700/day. I turned it down.


Allright, thanks for bringing this discussion back to the original point, after we've touched upon hookers' rates, taxes and who deserves what.

$700 per day seems like woefully small potatoes, especially for locum tenens type of gig. Note, that this is PER DAY, which as far as I understand, might mean that they are going to put 200 cases in front of you, and expect that you finish it in one day... As mentioned before, those are pure speculations; I don't know about these gigs but I'd like to learn more. ExPCM, you've mentioned you are dermatopathologist... Is the state of dermpath so sad that people are actually taking these kind of jobs seriously?

But I wasn't even that interested in rate per hour. I want to know the environment of these jobs. For instance, do you have full autonomy to spend as much time on cases as you feel? Do these jobs typically involve sweatshop environment with pressure to sign out many cases per time slot? Who offers these hourly-wage jobs--large corporate labs, podlabs, or even pathologist-owned groups? What's the typical case breakdown--derm, prostates, cyto? I'm guessing that these jobs typically involve high case volume and low slide/case ratio...
 
Is the state of dermpath so sad that people are actually taking these kind of jobs seriously?

I think since it's for a 2 week period it isn't really a job. Sometimes fellows or young attendings will take these jobs and take a vacation from their fellowship or whatever. $700 a day seems pretty weak though.
 
I'm not so sure about the $100. It's closer to $200 per hour ($180?). It probably all depends on the situation. I know the podlab that tried to recruit me for part time said it was about $180 per hour. I think they sort of compute that based on an estimate amount of time it takes to look at one slide, and how many slides they get.

I think you get paid by the case, not by the hour. It just sounds more ethical to advertise "by the hour" than "by the case." But who knows, I didn't pursue it.

It is worth pointing out that a 12 containers per prostate biopsy case pays almost 500 in professional component by medicare rates and only takes 15 (at most) minutes to read. So before anyone thinks 200 an hour is good, think again.
 
You can find more stuff out on the hourly pay of pathologists by calling a staffing company...the big name escapes me at the moment...

But anyway you would be shocked at what the hourly rate is currently, somewhere around 100/hour, which works out to 75% of California plumbers/electricians/appliance repair men and only 50% of California non-high end run of the mill prostitutes....and it only comes out to about 40% more than a CHP deputy with no college education.

Let's see..Comphealth's standard locums rate is 550 bucks per day which comes out to 68.75 bucks per hour..
well less than 100 bucks per hour...I can cite other temp rates for pathologists that are even less than that. The current economy is terrible and a lot of groups are electing to NOT hire for vacancies and they take advantage of those pathologists who have been downsized...PS I am a Bernie Ackerman trained Dermatopathologist....I thought i could get a job anywhere....
 
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Are your DP boarded? Just asking

Dermpath boarded and have been practicing dermpath since 1995 in both academic and contract lab situations. had to relocate last June to west coast due to family medical situation and now that i am seriously back in job market it has DRIED UP
 
Dermpath boarded and have been practicing dermpath since 1995 in both academic and contract lab situations. had to relocate last June to west coast due to family medical situation and now that i am seriously back in job market it has DRIED UP

Is the CAP listening to any of this?

All I seem to hear is, "the job market is robust". Kind of like what we were hearing with the economy prior to its downturn, "the fundamentals of our economy remain very strong". Wake up! :confused:

If anything, at least back off your stance of a strong job market for pathologists. Just because you say that it's strong doesn't mean that it really is.
 
I think a lot of groups have halted new hires, perhaps only temporarily, until the economy stablilizes a bit. The "west coast" factor might be the most important one in this particular circumstance though. There seem to be quite a few dermpath jobs in this area.
 
Allright, thanks for bringing this discussion back to the original point, after we've touched upon hookers' rates, taxes and who deserves what.

$700 per day seems like woefully small potatoes, especially for locum tenens type of gig. Note, that this is PER DAY, which as far as I understand, might mean that they are going to put 200 cases in front of you, and expect that you finish it in one day... As mentioned before, those are pure speculations; I don't know about these gigs but I'd like to learn more. ExPCM, you've mentioned you are dermatopathologist... Is the state of dermpath so sad that people are actually taking these kind of jobs seriously?

Unfortunately the job market in pathology (even in dermpath) sucks, so they will find takers even at $700/day. The post above by dermpathdoc is accurate. BTW Fred Silva is worse than Baghdad Bob IMHO as far as his level of bs propaganda.
I have been following the medhunters website for 6 years and the current level of 57 pathologist jobs posted is the lowest number I have ever seen.
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My dad had a hard time finding someone to replace the two partners who recently retired from his small town mid-western private practice. His job is pretty sweet. Three pathologists for two hospitals. Each path works 2/3 of the year... 4 months vacation, 40 hour weeks, and still decent money.

The majority of responses were from pathologists who barely spoke english and had lots of fellowships and academic experience. He viewed the academic experience and fellowships as a bad thing - indicative of someone either not interested in private practice or unable to ever permanently settle down.

The first pathologist hired was the only pathologist interested in the position at the time who spoke english well.

He had a harder time finding the second. A women whom he had interviewed but not hired called him on the telephone and cried, saying she really wanted the job. He offered her the position, but a few weeks later she changed her mind. Again, the man he eventually hired was the only pathologist interested in the position who spoke decent english.

I plan on going into pathology, and from what I have seen the job market looks good for those who speak english well and are willing to live in small mid-western cities. I do not see the appeal of California anyway. Here 100k buys a decent house and 300k an extravagant one. We can leave our house unlocked. We can drive our sports cars quickly, rather than in traffic jams. Public schools are good. Fast food employees are polite, hard working kids who can speak english and get my order right.

Are the pathologists working for $60/hour the ones who cannot speak english and are not suitable for managing a lab independtly? Perhaps the shortage of american graduates interested in pathology created the opportunity for these $60/hour positions? A pathologist who cannot speak decent english is worth less per hour in the US. Maybe the solution is to increase interest in pathology among US graduates rather than to whine publicly about the job market which has the opposite effect?
 
I plan on going into pathology, and from what I have seen the job market looks good for those who speak english well and are willing to live in small mid-western cities.

You will see lots of opinions on this subject. Some say that the job market totally sucks and that anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. It is hard to argue with this opinion because it is not really presented as an opinion or an argument, it is presented as a fact.

From my perspective I still have not seen a qualified candidate who had significant difficulty finding a job (and I have been looking). People who have had trouble have had some of the following issues:
1) Poor communication skills (whether it is english speaking or something else)
2) Poor work ethic
3) Inability or unwillingness to search beyond a specific region (job openings can be very cyclical, pathology is a small field and certain areas are not always going to need someone)
4) Inability or unwillingness to compromise on specific duties in their career (like the hemepath fellow who refuses to sign out anything but hemepath, and then complains that no one will give them a job)
5) Wanting to be part time.
6) Not being proactive with their job search. Jobs will sometimes come to you, but often not.

That being said, people with one or more of these issues that I know have still landed good jobs. One particular person I know of fit into categories 1,2,3,and 6 plus failed boards twice and still was fine.

The most interesting comment I have heard said (not here) was someone who said, "The job market seems to be bad, yet everyone seems to be finding great jobs anyway." There are reasons for these negative opinions: Some people have unrealistic expectations. Others have a narrow window of what defines an acceptable job (either location, salary, practice type, whatever). Others are, to be frank, poor candidates who many do not want to hire.

I cannot speak to the job market in California. In the northeast I think it is still decent - I did not train there but yet still had feelers from both academia and private practice.

I do agree that there does appear to be a disconnect between leaders of national organizations and the reality of the job market. When you look at trends and data, it is true that
1) Many pathologists are at or nearing retirement age
2) Existing practices continue to grow and cannot handle the future work load with their existing number of pathologists.

So when you factor in these two datapoints, it is a natural assumption that the job market should continue to expand and there will be a need for more pathologists. But that hasn't seemed to be true - existing groups are working harder and not really expanding. Subsets of the market are breaking off (niche labs, pod labs, subspecialty signout, etc) which increases efficiency and decreases the need for extra pathologists.

One sign of a weak job market that many point out is that pathologists change jobs frequently - many are on their third or fourth position before they find the one they really want. There are many reasons for this, among them is that there are a lot of crappy jobs. But people in every specialty in medicine change jobs frequently.
 
can we please be realistic...life is not fair...you, or pathologists don't DESERVE anything...if you wanted to make more money you should have picked another job...

anyway, hookers should get that amount of money...they are getting plowed everyday by dirty old dudes...they have jobs no one else wants to do

drug dealers make millions...and they don't have college educations...haven't you seen the wire

Tony Soprano was rich and never got a college education

anyway...if you want to make real loot, become a pathologist hooker...salary is about 325k after taxes


....are these two statements ironic, or is it just me?
 
Dermpath boarded and have been practicing dermpath since 1995 in both academic and contract lab situations. had to relocate last June to west coast due to family medical situation and now that i am seriously back in job market it has DRIED UP

Hmm...it's a bit concerning that pathologists trained in one of the most competitive fellowships can't seem to find job openings in areas of choice. I guess Cal might be more difficult? But it's still dermpath... I have recently seen top west coast trained pathology resident doing multiple fellowships now. Is this a huge concern?

In reference to pathologist's inability or unwillingness to compromise on specific duties in their career (like the hemepath fellow who refuses to sign out anything but hemepath), it's kind of understandable. I would assume with a good job market, this shouldn't be a problem, right? Besides, in other specialties such as medicine, isn't it true you rarely see cardiologists or gastroenterologists "signing out" on patients of other sub-specialties? Or is it just the scenario I see at teaching hospitals?

BTW, 57 pathologist job openings at medhunter sounds like a pessimistically low number to me...
 
Hmm...it's a bit concerning that pathologists trained in one of the most competitive fellowships can't seem to find job openings in areas of choice. I guess Cal might be more difficult? But it's still dermpath... I have recently seen top west coast trained pathology resident doing multiple fellowships now. Is this a huge concern?

In reference to pathologist's inability or unwillingness to compromise on specific duties in their career (like the hemepath fellow who refuses to sign out anything but hemepath), it's kind of understandable. I would assume with a good job market, this shouldn't be a problem, right? Besides, in other specialties such as medicine, isn't it true you rarely see cardiologists or gastroenterologists "signing out" on patients of other sub-specialties? Or is it just the scenario I see at teaching hospitals?

BTW, 57 pathologist job openings at medhunter sounds like a pessimistically low number to me...

Unless you are a fellow or an attending or in private practice, you probably have no idea what you are talking about and are just adding to a growing list of negative people on this message board. Outside this board, there are quite a few pathologists and residents who dispute what this board constantly says and also many have commented that this negative view is something being pushed by a few who are having problems (for some of the reasons stated by Yaah) and is a gross misrepresentation of facts.

I cant help but admit that I am concerned about the job market from the negative things I hear on this board and it makes me want to quit reading this board. For the most part, this board provides me with pessimism and gunners. While it has merit about getting advice from time to time, perhaps reading any of the sub-specialty boards is a waste of time. For example, I am trying to decide between radiology and pathology right now. I have seen all the debates and heard all that everyone has to say who has commented on previous students thinking about the same two fields. I have also seen in both the path and rad boards, people claiming that the job market is awful, outsourcing will ruin the field, Obama is out to destroy these fields, there are no jobs and the sky is falling.
 
Unless you are a fellow or an attending or in private practice, you probably have no idea what you are talking about and are just adding to a growing list of negative people on this message board. Outside this board, there are quite a few pathologists and residents who dispute what this board constantly says and also many have commented that this negative view is something being pushed by a few who are having problems (for some of the reasons stated by Yaah) and is a gross misrepresentation of facts.

I cant help but admit that I am concerned about the job market from the negative things I hear on this board and it makes me want to quit reading this board. For the most part, this board provides me with pessimism and gunners. While it has merit about getting advice from time to time, perhaps reading any of the sub-specialty boards is a waste of time. For example, I am trying to decide between radiology and pathology right now. I have seen all the debates and heard all that everyone has to say who has commented on previous students thinking about the same two fields. I have also seen in both the path and rad boards, people claiming that the job market is awful, outsourcing will ruin the field, Obama is out to destroy these fields, there are no jobs and the sky is falling.

Great post imo. I agree that there is rampant negativity on almost all of these boards and that they are in no way representative of the real world. Granted there are a ton of people who post who are very helpful, but it seems that the negative posts get much more attention (no surprise there).

As an MS4 hopefully matching in ~1 week, I am very excited about starting residency and the opportunities I will have afterwards in this exciting and diverse field of medicine.
 
Unless you are a fellow or an attending or in private practice, you probably have no idea what you are talking about and are just adding to a growing list of negative people on this message board. Outside this board, there are quite a few pathologists and residents who dispute what this board constantly says and also many have commented that this negative view is something being pushed by a few who are having problems (for some of the reasons stated by Yaah) and is a gross misrepresentation of facts.

I cant help but admit that I am concerned about the job market from the negative things I hear on this board and it makes me want to quit reading this board. For the most part, this board provides me with pessimism and gunners. While it has merit about getting advice from time to time, perhaps reading any of the sub-specialty boards is a waste of time. For example, I am trying to decide between radiology and pathology right now. I have seen all the debates and heard all that everyone has to say who has commented on previous students thinking about the same two fields. I have also seen in both the path and rad boards, people claiming that the job market is awful, outsourcing will ruin the field, Obama is out to destroy these fields, there are no jobs and the sky is falling.

Completely agree...Some of the people on this board are quite ridiculous...well, ridiculous or ******ed...sometimes both...the ones that say there are no jobs are the same ones that say that field is treadmilling as well...path really is going to play a huge part in medicine over the next decade and some of these clowns dont realize it.
 
I wonder if the pathology billing rates are protected by the low average work hours.

Take the urologists or cardiologists working insane hours and making a million a year. Dumb socialists will see this and get upset. They do not believe in rewarding hard work and talent. The pathologist with a similar hourly income will not be noticed because of the smaller yearly income.

So in 20 years, pathologists will still work 40 hour weeks and make 200k. Radiologists will work 60 hour weeks and make 200k. Neurosurgeons work constantly and make 200k. (future neurosurgeons will be the bottom of the class students and IMG)

In a socialist system, perhaps having an oversupply of pathologists is a good thing. The oversupply necessitates low average work hours while the compensation has nothing to do with the intrinsic worth of one's output or supply and demand economics.
 
Great post imo.

x2

Unrealistic expectations of the job market are unhelpful. I am not sure what some people expect - that if they do a fellowship, people will be breaking down their office door to throw money at them in hopes they come work for them? This is not how the job market works in ANY field unless you are a superstar in your field. Sure, it's a lot easier to find a hospitalist job, but it's not entirely a useful comparison. Hospitalists also make less money.

There probably are too many trainees for the number of available positions. It seems logical to assume that. But too many people treat the job market as a dichotomous situation - either there are NO JOBS or jobs are plentiful.

As far as dermpath, ads for dermpath jobs are second only to ads looking for cytopathologists.

What is more helpful than whining about NO JOBS (and calling anyone who disagrees or questions it ignorant) is to analyze why this perception exists and what, if anything, can be done about it. The other question to ask is, "how does it affect me?" I have posted a quite a bit about my perspective on this, and have frequently asked for good examples as to why the perception exists. So far, all we have is:

1) People talking about receiving dozens of CVs for open positions (although most of these CVs are from people with red flags in their history)
2) I heard about some guy who couldn't find a job somewhere, but I really don't know much else.
3) I had trouble finding a position in a specific location at a specific time period.
4) A lot of people only want to hire people with experience.

#3 is a valid concern, although as I have said, since pathology is a smaller field it is not entirely unexpected. Is it better for the profession as a whole to have constantly open positions with mercenaries being brought in to staff during busy periods? Or is it better to have adequately staffed hospitals that have less turnover?
#4 is also a valid concern, but this should be an indication for trainees to analyze and address their own weaknesses and deficiencies, so that you can confront them at any potential interview. Almost anyone who has spent anytime in a residency program will admit that there are quite a few residents who just don't have what it takes to be a great colleague (and you can't always tell this before they start). Personally, I got a job at a place that has very rarely hired people right out of training. If you have what they are looking for (and I'm not necessarily talking about what fellowship you did) and you are someone that they want to work with, it becomes less of an issue.
 
Unless you are a fellow or an attending or in private practice, you probably have no idea what you are talking about and are just adding to a growing list of negative people on this message board. Outside this board, there are quite a few pathologists and residents who dispute what this board constantly says and also many have commented that this negative view is something being pushed by a few who are having problems (for some of the reasons stated by Yaah) and is a gross misrepresentation of facts.

I cant help but admit that I am concerned about the job market from the negative things I hear on this board and it makes me want to quit reading this board. For the most part, this board provides me with pessimism and gunners. While it has merit about getting advice from time to time, perhaps reading any of the sub-specialty boards is a waste of time. For example, I am trying to decide between radiology and pathology right now. I have seen all the debates and heard all that everyone has to say who has commented on previous students thinking about the same two fields. I have also seen in both the path and rad boards, people claiming that the job market is awful, outsourcing will ruin the field, Obama is out to destroy these fields, there are no jobs and the sky is falling.

I don't completely disagree with your comments. Yes there seem to be a shortage of jobs right now and the economy is poor. I think some of the reasons for alot of the negative attitudes about the job market lies in the fact that those of us who will be seeking employment in the next year or 2 are under alot of stress. The path job market has not been great for at least a decade or so, where as other fields like rads have had booms to go with their low periods. Its easy to be optimistic when you have at least 4 or 5 years to go, and things could drastically change by the time you look for a job. I think you can without too much trouble find a job if your willing to relocate or go into an academic position, but it can be difficult to relocate a family or be in the position to move again in a couple of years. That can add alot of stress and pessimisism to you outlook. So i can see where alot of people out there are coming from. But this will never end even when you get into "a good job" there is a whole new set of issues (hospital CEO changes, lawsuits, competition, bad employment tactics ect) to get stressed over that could potentally put you out of work. You cant waste your life stressing out or being pessismistic. You should choose the field you want to go in based on your interest, not the job market. And anyway you could always be a waiter or a plumber if all else fails (I hear they do pretty good)
 
Unless you are a fellow or an attending or in private practice, you probably have no idea what you are talking about and are just adding to a growing list of negative people on this message board. Outside this board, there are quite a few pathologists and residents who dispute what this board constantly says and also many have commented that this negative view is something being pushed by a few who are having problems (for some of the reasons stated by Yaah) and is a gross misrepresentation of facts.

I cant help but admit that I am concerned about the job market from the negative things I hear on this board and it makes me want to quit reading this board. For the most part, this board provides me with pessimism and gunners. While it has merit about getting advice from time to time, perhaps reading any of the sub-specialty boards is a waste of time. For example, I am trying to decide between radiology and pathology right now. I have seen all the debates and heard all that everyone has to say who has commented on previous students thinking about the same two fields. I have also seen in both the path and rad boards, people claiming that the job market is awful, outsourcing will ruin the field, Obama is out to destroy these fields, there are no jobs and the sky is falling.

I will add this: The job market "situation" in Pathology absolutely and completely took me by surprise. I attended top programs, had a solid CV and I naively expected to set up shop on the beach in San Diego and have bikini clad histotechs serve me Mai Tais all day while I read out tray after tray of sebk's. This lala land was rapidly deflated once I actually began my search, now several years ago.

I will say that much of what I contribute is to more quickly deflate the mile high expectations medical students and residents who may very well be carrying 300-500+ thousand dollars in debt have of the business side of medicine.

That is not to say there isnt room for business savvy physicians to make money. I myself obtained a net worth in excess of 1 million USD exactly 19 months after leaving my fellowship. 19 months, less than 600 days into the "real world". But that is far far from the norm.

If anything, the little guys coming up through the ranks need to absolutely cultivate their success tool kit. This success tool kit includes a working knowledge of cash budgeting/finance, HR, business law, corporate structures and contracts rather than what IHCs to use on tumors of unknown origin in the liver or MDS signatures in flow cytometry (although also very important).
 
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Yes it is true in the sense of an hourly wage. Usually prostitutes dont put in standard 8 hour days so its comparing apples and oranges when you look at yearly salary. Same degree as plumbers, many plumbers will do a big contract job for 3-4 months/year then do house call work, all the while selling products out of a store front (like kitchen crap they have at home depot) so in that sense they are very similar to Eye docs and dermatologists who push product in their office to make additional coin.

The key determinant is our progressive tax code. If there was a flat tax then the steady income of a pathologist would win out but its not.
Lets say:
hooker charges 200 bucks/hr and works steadily for roughly 15 hours a week, annualized comes to 156000/year
a pathologist receives 100/hr but works 40hrs a week/ annualized is 208000.

Pathologist receives health ins, 401K, dental...+additional untaxed 48000 in income

Pathologist pays 9.3% for state taxes and another effective tax rate of say 25% (total given all progressive brackets) for a total rate of 34.3%

Pathologist take home 136656+additional untaxed benefits=184656 (annualized NOT real salary take home)


As you can CLEARLY see a hooker with no education is making 84.5% of the salary of someone with 13+ years of post-secondary education and working only 37.5% as much.

The system is patently broke.

The above from a guy who claims CHP deputies make $60/hour...I hope at least he was referring to total benefit, but if that were the case he wouldn't have used 100/hour for pathologists. I won't even dignify this guy by speaking at him he's just an idiot.
 
The above from a guy who claims CHP deputies make $60/hour...I hope at least he was referring to total benefit, but if that were the case he wouldn't have used 100/hour for pathologists. I won't even dignify this guy by speaking at him he's just an idiot.

I eagerly await his response.
 
The above from a guy who claims CHP deputies make $60/hour...I hope at least he was referring to total benefit, but if that were the case he wouldn't have used 100/hour for pathologists. I won't even dignify this guy by speaking at him he's just an idiot.

Abmonkey, really need to do your homework. You have been made the fool.
Salaries for law enforcement vary WIDELY across the US. In California, they border on obscene, myself and others have already posted the information.
From the CHP website:

Example of potential CHP Officer Salaries
After Fifth Year
Base pay $79,248
PPP Pay 1,560
8-1/2 Hour Day 4,953
Swing Shift Differential 1,650
Pre & Post 2,773.68
Subtotal $90,184.68
Average Overtime 15,000
Subtotal $83,969.44 $105,184.68
Education Incentive (BA) (5 % of base) 3,962.40
Total: $109,147.08
PLUS FULL BENEFITS AND PENSION.

OR how about these apples:
JAMES E SZABO 2008 CAPTAIN, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $291,761 Details
JOSEPH M MCENULTY 2008 LIEUTENANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $273,575 Details
MICHAEL C SANDERS 2008 SERGEANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $258,514 Details
CLAYTON M CARTER 2008 LIEUTENANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $244,231 Details
JOHN T MULHOLLAND 2008 SERGEANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $242,343 Details
STEVEN J VAUGHN 2008 CHIEF, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $236,468 Details
ABBEY M BATTERTON 2008 LIEUTENANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $232,268 Details
ARTHUR L ANDERSON JR 2008 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL C CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $231,942 Details
SHARON E BAKER 2008 ASSISTANT CHIEF, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $231,469

which is more than a good chunk of the UC faculty in Pathology.

So in fact I actually far UNDERESTIMATED the CHP compensation in my model.

Hows the apples? Really, are they sweet and juicy or sour and bitter??

But thanks for playing. Try again.

We need a better screen to prevent monkey-like premeds from posting in subspec sections. PLEASE.
 
As usual LADOC is posting the straight truth. On the other hand we have a couple of clueless medical students living in their sheltered medical school world who are posting on a subject with which they have no direct personal experience. We also yaah who is still in fellowship training but seems to have a more positive view of the job market than any of my local colleagues. Then of course we have the Wonderful Wizard of Oz AKA Fred Silva who can tap his heels together 3 times and magically improve the pathology job market.
 
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As usual LADOC is posting the straight truth. On the other hand we have a couple of clueless medical students living in their sheltered medical school world who are posting on a subject with which they have no direct personal experience. We also yaah who is still in fellowship training but seems to have a more positive view of the job market than any of my local colleagues. Then of course we have the Wonderful Wizard of Oz AKA Fred Silva who can tap his heels together 3 times and magically improve the pathology job market.

And we have you who consistently comes on here and posts this same thing about the job market without any real evidence to back it up. I have posted my experience. Is yours bad? I would really like it if people who consistently badmouth the job market would actually provide useful information instead of continually telling us all to stop being naive. LADoc is the exception, he actually gives reasonable data and advice and seems to have an informed opinion instead of just an opinion.

Fred Silva also has data. He has presented his data many times. You can respond to his data with disbelief, or you can respond to his data with facts of your own. The former is, as I have said before, not going to cut it.
 
I have posted some data previously from the ASCP surveys and physician recruiters. I am not going to repost that here.

The mere existence of pod labs and client billing practices are by themselves proof positive of the oversupply of pathologists. If pathologists were not a dime a dozen they would not be able to get pathologists to engage in these slimy practices.

I have seen Fred Silva speak and he never presents anything that I would call "data". I even heard him say that less than 1 percent of pathology groups have a history of hiring new pathologists and then letting them go without making them partners in the group. That statistic is complete nonsense IMHO.

As for what LADOC posted about CHP lets us look at some LA pathologists
From 2006 form 990 of University Pathology Associates in Los Angeles, CA (note: this form is a public record)
Dr. Micheal Koss $243,291
Dr. Clive Taylor $205,188
Dr. Peter Nichols $204,159
Dr. Adrian Correa $252,052
Dr. Alexander Fedenko $302,983
Dr. Gary Zeger $207,470
Dr. Andy Sherrod $184,368
And these are the highest paid members of the group per the form 990!
 
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What offends me most is someone with less than 20 post history on SDN coming to a thread with no evidence and taking a dump..and on top of it being a premed!


As to the job market, Ive pointed out numerous times it is:
1.) it is very regional/"pocketed"
2.) highly dependent on training background
3.) very demographically sensitive

i.e. A white upstanding Christian male willing to go to less served regions in the Midwest with highly sought after skills eg-GI fellow from arguably the top GI program in the nation if not the world eg-Michigan is likely getting BJs from potential employers something fierce. Backing away, the data is far more fuzzy for the "masses".

I would love to reprint all the data I have for SDN, but legally I cannot..but even on a causal glance of the confidential info from Dark Report, APF(where IMO the meat of issues are thoroughly explored routinely) and CAP, you can see bubble issues with the professional labor force in pathology. I have fully expounded on my theories as to why Pathology, the ABP and the CAP/ASCP have gone down this winding road; and specifically why the behavior of the ABP/CAP cabal is so wildly different than say ENT or Derm equivalents. Needless to say I could write an Orwellian novel on what went horribly wrong when we came to the crossroads in the mid 1980s.
 
The mere existence of pod labs and client billing practices are by themselves proof positive of the oversupply of pathologists. If pathologists were not a dime a dozen they would be able to get pathologists to engage in these slimy practices.

I agree with the first point but not the second - pod labs are attractive to some pathologists because they pay well, have regular hours, and fewer administrative tasks and call. I do agree that they would be less of a problem if jobs were plentiful, because others who don't like that kind of job wouldn't be forced into them.

I definitely agree that the job market is "tiered" and some applicants are going to be looked at differently from others. But it is not a 1%/99% split.

As far as the ASCP surveys, we have already discussed why many have different impressions when they see those numbers.

The number I would like to see is what percentage of graduating residents would be considered "undesirable" hires by quality groups. I would estimate as high as 20%, which is a bit of an indictment of training programs as well as ACGME or whoever else approves programs.
 
If pathologist were in short supply however, pod labs would be on the pathologist terms not vice versa..

As in they would make at least their full professional compensation. And they would be sharing in the profits from the labs.

Not paid some pittance salary while other physicians with needles and patient make money of the the lab technical fee AND the pathologists 88305s.
 
LADoc,

You've offered before to write a little bit about starting your own lab and your experiences doing that. I'm sure that I'm not alone in saying that I would love to hear this story as well as advice on how to go about starting your own business in pathology. It would be great for those of us who don't want to work in a pod lab when we're 52 and miserable.
 
Abmonkey, really need to do your homework. You have been made the fool.
Salaries for law enforcement vary WIDELY across the US. In California, they border on obscene, myself and others have already posted the information.
From the CHP website:

Example of potential CHP Officer Salaries
After Fifth Year
Base pay $79,248
PPP Pay 1,560
8-1/2 Hour Day 4,953
Swing Shift Differential 1,650
Pre & Post 2,773.68
Subtotal $90,184.68
Average Overtime 15,000
Subtotal $83,969.44 $105,184.68
Education Incentive (BA) (5 % of base) 3,962.40
Total: $109,147.08
PLUS FULL BENEFITS AND PENSION.

OR how about these apples:
JAMES E SZABO 2008 CAPTAIN, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $291,761 Details
JOSEPH M MCENULTY 2008 LIEUTENANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $273,575 Details
MICHAEL C SANDERS 2008 SERGEANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $258,514 Details
CLAYTON M CARTER 2008 LIEUTENANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $244,231 Details
JOHN T MULHOLLAND 2008 SERGEANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $242,343 Details
STEVEN J VAUGHN 2008 CHIEF, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $236,468 Details
ABBEY M BATTERTON 2008 LIEUTENANT, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $232,268 Details
ARTHUR L ANDERSON JR 2008 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL C CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $231,942 Details
SHARON E BAKER 2008 ASSISTANT CHIEF, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL $231,469

which is more than a good chunk of the UC faculty in Pathology.

So in fact I actually far UNDERESTIMATED the CHP compensation in my model.

Hows the apples? Really, are they sweet and juicy or sour and bitter??

But thanks for playing. Try again.

We need a better screen to prevent monkey-like premeds from posting in subspec sections. PLEASE.

The salaries listed are not just "examples" they are the most of the TOP earners in law enforcement. In fact, I would agree with you that most are well paid. However, the facts(not extreme top paying exceptions) are that the base pay for deputies....which let me remind you you originally said deputies(of which salaries you listed none) is 65,185 with an approx COLA raise of 5.0% a year(tops out at 79,xxx) which has been suspended due to our budget crisis in the state. So using the typical deputies salary...say 72000, the salary would be 34 dollars and some change.

Those apples you mentioned reminded me of those bright shiny apples you see in model homes...problem is there's really nothin to em. Those apples are just for looks, no real substance
 
LADoc,

You've offered before to write a little bit about starting your own lab and your experiences doing that. I'm sure that I'm not alone in saying that I would love to hear this story as well as advice on how to go about starting your own business in pathology. It would be great for those of us who don't want to work in a pod lab when we're 52 and miserable.

I would love to but to do it justice I would want to take alot of time and effort, especially if people seriously intended to use it as some type of guide (which since we are all different in terms of business personality/skill, I would seriously warn against).

Also, any sort of analytical approach would threaten revealing my identity which I simply wont do. I know there are people poking around trying to figure out who I am and what labs I own in California and Im approaching the point of not ever visiting this site again.
 
I would love to but to do it justice I would want to take alot of time and effort, especially if people seriously intended to use it as some type of guide (which since we are all different in terms of business personality/skill, I would seriously warn against).

Also, any sort of analytical approach would threaten revealing my identity which I simply wont do. I know there are people poking around trying to figure out who I am and what labs I own in California and Im approaching the point of not ever visiting this site again.

Please don't leave us LA!! It is you and Pathwrath who give us great advice about the real world.
 
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