MONEY and PRESTIGE is a good enough reason to become a doctor

takeaguess · Jun 26, 2009

Why do people on SDN say that money and prestige isn't a good reason to become doctor?

Seriously why am I reading so many SDN posts saying that money, prestige, and girls aren't in the job anymore. Or that it takes too many years to become a doctor and that the hours are so long that it's not worth it for these reasons; ANY JOB that gives you that much responsibility, power, and a high salary will be like this (unless you get lucky somehow).

I'm not saying it should be the only reason but those factors can definitely weight in. Yes I'm sure you could make more money if you're lucky and own a successful business but physician is still THE highest paid most secure profession out there. Even if you end up in primary care you can still pull off $150K or become a medical director for some pharmaceuticals and make +$200K a year (not many jobs will give that soon after graduation). As a subspecialty surgeon it's easily $500K from the docs that I know. And there's no need to worry about physician loosing there high salary anytime in the near future; yeah it might go down a little but it's all about supply and demand; low # doctors + huge demand = high pay whether it's socialized medicine or not. Then I'm hearing people saying that it's not as prestigious as it used to be. Maybe not as much as the 80s but people outside look at me like I'm the coolest guy for becoming a physician. I've been able to pick up more girls since just by saying I'm a med school student! (not to be cocky).

I'm not saying that's the only reason why I decided to go into medicine. I love the functioning of the human body and enjoy working very close to people. But it was definitely a big factor.

All I'm saying is if what you want in life is chicks, money, power and chicks, then going to med school is a guaranteed route if you don't mind medicine, and working and studying really hard till your early 30s.

Does that make sense or am I missing something?

Thank you for your feedbacks

takeaguess said:
I didn't mean to give everyone the assumption that all I wanted from medicine was money and prestige. I love many other aspects of what being a physician has to offer. I was just saying that earning an MD is a great path towards earning money and prestige ONLY IF you play your cards right. And yes it will be time consuming, with great debts, 8 yrs off your life etc… (Personally I love staying busy and so far overall had a great time in med school). And it doesn't have to be in actually practicing medicine. I have a friend who took his MD to a job in pharmaceuticals and is now an executive for one of the top pharmaceutical firms in the world! Talk about money and prestige! And it would've been A LOT harder for him if it wasn't for his MD. That's just an example. I'm NOT saying MD=money+prestige, more like MD=great opportunities towards m+p. And I KNOW that having an MD is not the only way to achieve these things.

And PS: when I said "chicks, money, power, and chicks" that was a quote from Dr. Cox aka a JOKE! It's just that in this shallow world it seems that money and prestige can easily make you popular. But that's another story and there's no need to discuss it in this thread. Feel free to open a new one if you'd like.

MMN · Jun 26, 2009

totally true

JaggerPlate · Jun 26, 2009

Opportunity costs + debt + lifestyle + declining reimbursements ....

You're not 'wrong,' for thinking you'll be fine in like with a 200k salary at 32 or whatever, but what people are saying is don't expect to drive a Ferrari at 25 as a doctor, unless you plan on some awesome plastic surgery practice in Beverly Hills or something, which is a risk, which is why a lot of people take the safe 'secure' doc route instead of opening some business at 20 like their business friends.

spicedmanna · Jun 26, 2009

takeaguess said:
All I'm saying is if what you want in life is chicks, money, power and chicks, then going to med school is a guaranteed route if you don't mind medicine, and working and studying really hard till your early 30s.

Not any more, bud. Those days are gone. I'm not saying that medicine isn't a fulfilling profession; it definitely is, if you are into it. However, it's no magic carpet ride. Actually, in this economy, nothing is. Yeah, docs make a decent living, but I also think it's warranted after so many years of school and hard work to get there (and accumulated school loan debt). It's not all fun and games once you finish. There are clearly exceptions, many of which are notable, but most docs I know work pretty hard for their money and don't have tremendous time to spend what they've worked so hard to earn; the really smart (and rich) ones have figure out how to invest their earnings well and/or have really smart business partners.

Does that make sense or am I missing something?

Yeah, you are missing the fact that many physicians engage in 12 years of post-secondary education, from undergrad to the finish of their residency, and at the end, they are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, as they jump through hoop after hoop, and have a failing healthcare system with diminish reimbursements to look forward to when they are done. Not to mention that this process can take years off of your life... It's a rigorous ride for sure. It's a good career choice if you like medicine, otherwise, there are probably easier ways to make money and have a comfortable life.

SpookyDoc · Jun 26, 2009

takeaguess said:
All I'm saying is if what you want in life is chicks, money, power and chicks, then going to med school is a guaranteed route if you don't mind medicine, and working and studying really hard till your early 30s.

Does that make sense or am I missing something?

Yes. You are. All of that is achievable without if you're not a total toolbox. If you need this profession to get any of these (especially your illusory 'power') then you're going to have a lonely 8 years in medical school, and when you get out you can cry when the kids who could pick up a chick anyways take all of your gold-diggers.

takeaguess · Jun 26, 2009

SpookyDoc said:
, and when you get out you can cry when the kids who could pick up a chick anyways take all of your gold-diggers.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you trying to say

takeaguess · Jun 26, 2009

spicedmanna said:
, but most docs I know work pretty hard for their money and don't have tremendous time to spend what they've worked so hard to earn;

hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, as they jump through hoop after hoop, and have a failing healthcare system with diminish reimbursements to look forward to when they are done.

Like i said, almost any realistic job that gives you the privilege and salary of a physician will be highly time consuming. Also if healthcare system becomes really terrible for docs, an MD can give you many job opportunities outside the hospital that gives great pay and lifestyle. Debts can be paid off with higher salaries (not to mention the tax reduction) and jumping through hoops come with any great career. Thats just my opinion

Zoom-Zoom · Jun 26, 2009

Medicine pays ok but just enough to warrant spending 12+ years of your life in higher education (counting residency). It also requires long, hard hours. You'd be suprised how little most docs make if you convert it to an hourly rate.

I do get the stability/risk argument though. People here tend to have the impression that all smart people who become entrepreneurs have the potential to make 7-figure incomes, but this just isn't the case. In the real world intellect isn't a guarantee that you'll strike it rich and I'd bet for every 7-figure entrepreneur there's a handful with his IQ who failed and are now in miserable debt. Being a doc is a relatively good way to assure you'll be wealthy, but not fabulously so.

Still, niether reason is justification for pursuing any career as demanding as medicine if your heart isn't in it. This is a recipe for depression.

spicedmanna · Jun 26, 2009

takeaguess said:
Like i said, almost any realistic job that gives you the privilege and salary of a physician will be highly time consuming. Also if healthcare system becomes really terrible for docs, an MD can give you many job opportunities outside the hospital that gives great pay and lifestyle. Debts can be paid off with higher salaries (not to mention the tax reduction) and jumping through hoops come with any great career. Thats just my opinion

Eh, whatever. Go ahead and convince yourself that being a doc is going to give you wine, women, and money. Maybe it will; who knows? Good luck on that. Try it and report back years later. I've been around long enough on this planet to see too many sad stories of people going in for "money and prestige" for anything as primary reasons and coming out pretty unhappy. The bottom line is that, while there isn't any wrong reason to pursue medicine, you really have to like it. It's a tough job and a long journey. I wouldn't wish this on anyone who isn't truly excited to do it.

I have no idea what TV shows kids are watching these days, but being a physician isn't like some sort of magic thing that makes you wealthy and famous. You have to build that yourself. Physicians make a good salary, but as was mentioned in another thread in the non-trad forum, making a salary isn't going to make you wealthy; that goes beyond a paycheck. As to prestige, well, docs don't get the respect they used to get back in the 1950's. They are no longer deified. Yes, there is respect, but don't expect that people are going to pee in their pants when they hear you are a doctor. It isn't going to give you rock star status suddenly. Go see for yourself.

And you forgot the part about being hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. This is NOT a trivial matter when you have a family, coupled with loans from your car, your house, etc. Being paid $150K is certainly nice money, but when you subtract out loans, overhead, taxes, insurance, living costs, you aren't left with as much as you think. It's still a good chunk if you are not a financial idiot, but it's definitely not rock star money, bud. There are easier ways to make money and will cost you less to get there. Have you not ever had a large credit card debt? Paying off hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt plus interest is NOT easy, even if you are making $150K.

Go ahead, pursue medicine. I won't stop you. Do what you want, for whatever reason you think will motive you through this whole ride. I don't give a crap. You have to realize that I'm no stranger to money or to hard work, for that matter. I'm older than your average bear. From my understanding of things, if enjoyment of your work isn't a large part of your motivation, it will probably be a long and hard ride.

I hate to say it, but you smack of pre-med idealism, someone who has never tasted the pain of the process. You are making so many assumptions. There are many places in the journey that are not real happy places at all and there are so many hoops to jump through. And after you are finished with your formal education, it's not like you are going to be eating pie everyday. I have many friends who try to see as many patients as they can each day and they there writing up charts well into the evening. Fun consists of actually spending more than a few hours with the family. One of my best friends is a general internist and he works his ass off. I tried to keep up with him for a few days once and I was completely wiped. The guy works harder than anyone I know, probably hitting about 12-15 hrs per day on a packed ward plus call and then spending the occasional weekend working as well, either on the wards or on clinic duty. When he's not working, he's sleeping. Not much of a social life, if you ask me. Sure he's making pretty good money. He's a young attending, so who knows? Maybe in a few years things will get better. That's what he's been telling himself, anyway.

Basically, it comes down to this: if you think your reasons are strong enough to carry you through these dark times, then best of luck to you. Truly. Best wishes.

smq123 · Jun 26, 2009

takeaguess said:
Why do people on SDN say that money and prestige isn't a good reason to become doctor?

takeaguess said:
Even if you end up in primary care you can still pull off $150K or become a medical director for some pharmaceuticals and make +$200K a year (not many jobs will give that soon after graduation). As a subspecialty surgeon it's easily $500K from the docs that I know.

Apart from dramatic declines in salary that most people are predicting will happen with Obama's plan, there are some days where the money is just not enough. Is it really worth it to get spit on, puked on, bled on, yelled at by multiple patients? Is it really worth it to have to deliver terrible news to your patients? Is it really worth it to work 90 hours a week as an attending, and to be away from your family for that much time (if you're lucky enough to have a family in the first place!) There are some really, really crappy days in medicine when, sometimes, it just doesn't seem worth it.

No, money is DEFINITELY not enough. It's not a bad thing to want to go into medicine PARTLY for the money and the job security, but there are enough really crappy parts of the job that if you go into medicine for money alone, it's just not worth it.

takeaguess said:
Then I'm hearing people saying that it's not as prestigious as it used to be. Maybe not as much as the 80s but people outside look at me like I'm the coolest guy for becoming a physician. I've been able to pick up more girls since just by saying I'm a med school student! (not to be cocky).

Well, well. That is fan-freaking-tastic for you.

However, as for me, I'm a girl. The idea that being a doctor can help you pick up chicks excites me significantly less than it excites you. Trust me, when you're a girl, saying that you're a doctor doesn't really help you pick up guys.

Furthermore, will that girl who was so impressed by your "med student" status stick around when you're on q3 call for a month? When you don't have any free weekends? When you can't spend a lot of time on her because you're busy studying for a big exam? Or will she start spending more time with another guy who might have a less "prestigious" job, but has more free time?

A lot of marriages and relationships fall apart because of medicine. It's not the wonderful rosy picture that you've painted.

FatKid · Jun 26, 2009

OP:

Go into medicine for whatever reason you want.

Your class will consist of about 66% people who are complete brainwashed liberal tools who will tell you how much they like helping people, meanwhile they are applying to Dematology and Plastic Surgery.

33% of your class will be cool people. Hang out with these people.

FatKid · Jun 26, 2009

smq123 said:
However, as for me, I'm a girl. The idea that being a doctor can help you pick up chicks excites me significantly less than it excites you. Trust me, when you're a girl, saying that you're a doctor doesn't really help you pick up guys.

Being a male in medicine today is good.

As women compose more and more of medical school classes, it makes male medical students a rarer breed, which increases our desire among women.

Supply and demand.

januarylily · Jun 26, 2009

you know, i used to think like you too, when my parents brainwashed me into thinking that being a physician would be the path to money, fame, and fortune. and then i went to college and found the real money-making professions: FINANCE and CONSULTING.

i met people in college who were planning on making their first million by the time they're 30. you can't do that as a physician. good luck making a million in your lifetime as a PCP. lol. do you even know how much analysts at consultanting and finance firms make?? they make 60k base plus bonus, usually 60-100% of their base salary. you could be making 100k+ in your first year out of college. if you rise up in the ranks, you could be easily swinging 250k+ by the time you're 30, without an MBA.

considering the opportunity costs of medical school (that is, not only the $$ involved to go to school, but also the money you could be making while you're in school), being a physician is wwaaaayyyy down on the list of lucrative jobs.

if you're smart enough to go to a good medical school, you're probably smart enough to land a job at a decent bank or consulting firm.

and don't even get me started in private equity or VC....

so basically, i don't really think money is enough of a motive because frankly, if money were your motive and you were smart, then you wouldn't go into medicine because you would know that there are waaay easier and waaay better ways to make money than through medicine.

note: i realize the the investment banking industry is not what it used to be since it's imploded but trust me on this one, those banks are still hiring new analysts and the industry is going to come back. their job is to make money and they're gonna keep on doing it until there is literally no more money to be made.

Impromptu · Jun 26, 2009

Being a doctor is great. That car is definately in your future. Unfortunatley, it is your son who is driving it. You are too busy working.

Concerning the OP, the money, power, and prestige isn't worth a life of misery. The money, power, and prestige is a perfectly legitimate deciding factor between two things you love: pottery and medicine, or specialty specific: psychiatry and anesthesiology.

GoldShadow · Jun 26, 2009

takeaguess said:
All Im saying is if what you want in life is chicks, money, power and chicks, then going to med school is a guaranteed route

Did you like not listen to Dr. Cox at all when he made that speech? He said the exact opposite.

Dr Gerrard · Jun 26, 2009

Did you guys not read the OPs first post?

He said he does have other reasons for going into medicine as well.

He wants the money, etc. Medicine is the best way for him to get there because he enjoys the career.

He nowhere mentioned that he is only going into medicine for those "superficial" reasons.

To the above poster who mentioned finance and consulting. Do you watch the news? Finance is taking one of the biggest hits during these times. Do you know how hard it is to find jobs in finance?

Medicine IS one of the best careers to go into for job security. It is almost guaranteed that you will not go jobless.

THERE IS NO EASY WAY TO MAKE TONS OF MONEY. PERIOD. For some people, medicine, although a very tough career path, is the best way to earn a living.

witness23 · Jun 26, 2009

rest in peace Michael, they should retire your name

JJMrK · Jun 26, 2009

januarylily said:
you know, i used to think like you too, when my parents brainwashed me into thinking that being a physician would be the path to money, fame, and fortune. and then i went to college and found the real money-making professions: FINANCE and CONSULTING.

i met people in college who were planning on making their first million by the time they're 30. you can't do that as a physician. good luck making a million in your lifetime as a PCP. lol. do you even know how much analysts at consultanting and finance firms make?? they make 60k base plus bonus, usually 60-100% of their base salary. you could be making 100k+ in your first year out of college. if you rise up in the ranks, you could be easily swinging 250k+ by the time you're 30, without an MBA.

considering the opportunity costs of medical school (that is, not only the $$ involved to go to school, but also the money you could be making while you're in school), being a physician is wwaaaayyyy down on the list of lucrative jobs.

if you're smart enough to go to a good medical school, you're probably smart enough to land a job at a decent bank or consulting firm.

and don't even get me started in private equity or VC....

so basically, i don't really think money is enough of a motive because frankly, if money were your motive and you were smart, then you wouldn't go into medicine because you would know that there are waaay easier and waaay better ways to make money than through medicine.

note: i realize the the investment banking industry is not what it used to be since it's imploded but trust me on this one, those banks are still hiring new analysts and the industry is going to come back. their job is to make money and they're gonna keep on doing it until there is literally no more money to be made.

Oh man. I'm so sick of hearing this. You know what most people who go into finance do these days? They do the books for some tiny company at $25/hour, or manage a restaurant.

sunset823 · Jun 26, 2009

smq123 said:
However, as for me, I'm a girl. The idea that being a doctor can help you pick up chicks excites me significantly less than it excites you. Trust me, when you're a girl, saying that you're a doctor doesn't really help you pick up guys.

Touche! I've relegated myself to permanent spinstress-ness, cuz a combination of being a physician and working in white male-dominated health policy is not going to make me a very endearing 'dear wife and mother'

As for the OP, take your MD, forget residency. and join McKinsey - you'll be happier there, trust me. Your chicks will dig your first-class travel, especially when you send back your dirty laundry for them to wash from some hotel room.

FatKid · Jun 26, 2009

januarylily said:
you know, i used to think like you too, when my parents brainwashed me into thinking that being a physician would be the path to money, fame, and fortune. and then i went to college and found the real money-making professions: FINANCE and CONSULTING.

i met people in college who were planning on making their first million by the time they're 30. you can't do that as a physician. good luck making a million in your lifetime as a PCP. lol. do you even know how much analysts at consultanting and finance firms make?? they make 60k base plus bonus, usually 60-100% of their base salary. you could be making 100k+ in your first year out of college. if you rise up in the ranks, you could be easily swinging 250k+ by the time you're 30, without an MBA.

considering the opportunity costs of medical school (that is, not only the $$ involved to go to school, but also the money you could be making while you're in school), being a physician is wwaaaayyyy down on the list of lucrative jobs.

if you're smart enough to go to a good medical school, you're probably smart enough to land a job at a decent bank or consulting firm.

and don't even get me started in private equity or VC....

so basically, i don't really think money is enough of a motive because frankly, if money were your motive and you were smart, then you wouldn't go into medicine because you would know that there are waaay easier and waaay better ways to make money than through medicine.

note: i realize the the investment banking industry is not what it used to be since it's imploded but trust me on this one, those banks are still hiring new analysts and the industry is going to come back. their job is to make money and they're gonna keep on doing it until there is literally no more money to be made.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

For every one successful consultant/investor, there are 99 who don't make it.

Medicine is a much more safe and job-secure field.

FatKid · Jun 26, 2009

sunset823 said:
Touche! I've relegated myself to permanent spinstress-ness, cuz a combination of being a physician and working in white male-dominated health policy is not going to make me a very endearing 'dear wife and mother'

As for the OP, take your MD, forget residency. and join McKinsey - you'll be happier there, trust me. Your chicks will dig your first-class travel, especially when you send back your dirty laundry for them to wash from some hotel room.

You realize that in America, no one has it harder than white males, right?

You can always play the female card if you get outperformed by a white male and claim sexism.

White males have no card to play.

sunset823 · Jun 26, 2009

FatKid said:
You realize that in America, no one has it harder than white males, right?

You can always play the female card if you get outperformed by a white male and claim sexism.

White males have no card to play.

ooh, trust me, I know - I have a feeling I'll be extremely happy with how my career will progress in the future (especially since I'm considering a very male-dominated specialty/subspecialty)...it's just successful women don't play very well in the eyes of egocentric successful men as personal partners; seen this time and time again

I'm not a feminist, I know and like a lot of white males, but I hate how this thread and its 'gold-diggin chicks' language smacks of totally unwarranted sexism.

FatKid · Jun 26, 2009

sunset823 said:
ooh, trust me, I know - I have a feeling I'll be extremely happy with how my career will progress in the future (especially since I'm considering a very male-dominated specialty/subspecialty)...it's just successful women don't play very well in the eyes of egocentric successful men as personal partners; seen this time and time again

I'm not a feminist, I know and like a lot of white males, but I hate how this thread and its 'gold-diggin chicks' language smacks of totally unwarranted sexism.

You're not a feminist, yet you support unfair treatment of white males and want to benefit by going into a male-dominated specialty because of your gender?

That makes you a feminist.

MegaProjectile · Jun 26, 2009

FatKid said:
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

For every one successful consultant/investor, there are 99 who don't make it.

Medicine is a much more safe and job-secure field.

You are right. I think the AAMC did a complete study on medicine as career when compared to other career paths. It's a big dog-eat-dog out there. The finance world, especially, places a huge demand on pedigree(harvard, yale, etc) to earn those 6 figure salaries. In medicine, the field is kinda level. That's why the caribbean med school grad and John Hopkins grad end up earning the same.

The finance world rewards aggression, risk-taking and prowlness. Very different from what medical schools are looking for in an applicant.

sunset823 · Jun 26, 2009

FatKid said:
You're not a feminist, yet you support unfair treatment of white males and want to benefit by going into a male-dominated specialty because of your gender?

That makes you a feminist.

Wrong. I'm going into a male-dominated specialty because I'm going to live like a male (alone in a grimy apartment, working 80-100 hrs/wk) to be successful in my chosen specialty. That's not unfair treatment of white males, that's a choice I'm making that I'm pretty sure most women would not be willing to make, and most men don't HAVE to make.

Brigade4Radiant · Jun 26, 2009

MegaProjectile said:
You are right. I think the AAMC did a complete study on medicine as career when compared to other career paths. It's a big dog-eat-dog out there. The finance world, especially, places a huge demand on pedigree(harvard, yale, etc) to earn those 6 figure salaries. In medicine, the field is kinda level. That's why the caribbean med school grad and John Hopkins grad end up earning the same.

The finance world rewards aggression, risk-taking and prowlness. Very different from what medical schools are looking for in an applicant.

Yes this is true which is why saying If you're smart enough to go to Med School you can go anywhere, is a stupid saying. If you could get into medical school you could have gone into the other allied health professions or a ph.d program. Not into law or business.

Also lets make something clear you are not a martyr for going into the field of medicine. No one sacrifices themselves for no benifeit. If you are going into medicine and are complaining about how hard your life is I doubt you have any idea how the real world is. Remember this board is just about the career what other profession has boards like these just dedicated to a job?

longhorn09 · Jun 26, 2009

But you cat say that in your interviews, can you?

Dr Gerrard · Jun 26, 2009

Wow, were are all of the superaltruists?

I made a similar thread earlier and got responses like "Well you already lost some respect by making this thread" and "Wow, I wouldn't want you to be my doctor."

My dad is a business owner, he used to tell me how he makes more than a doctor and I should go into business. Now, he business is slow and he no longer says that. Doctors may take a pay cut, but THEY DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MONEY. That is key.

Loving money and loving the profession are not mutually exclusive.

BluntSurgeon · Jun 26, 2009

FatKid said:
You realize that in America, no one has it harder than white males, right?

You can always play the female card if you get outperformed by a white male and claim sexism.

White males have no card to play.

Man I don't even know where to begin with that statement. Let's just leave it at you are terribly terribly wrong and short-sighted.

circulus vitios · Jun 26, 2009

Medicine is still prestigious. How many parents brag about their children being doctors?

There is still some money in medicine. Not like it was 20-30 years ago (so I've been told), but it's not bad. I won't be getting a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce any time soon, but a nice Corvette or something isn't out of line. :laugh:

maceo · Jun 26, 2009

smq123 said:
Apart from dramatic declines in salary that most people are predicting will happen with Obama's plan, there are some days where the money is just not enough. Is it really worth it to get spit on, puked on, bled on, yelled at by multiple patients? Is it really worth it to have to deliver terrible news to your patients? Is it really worth it to work 90 hours a week as an attending, and to be away from your family for that much time (if you're lucky enough to have a family in the first place!) There are some really, really crappy days in medicine when, sometimes, it just doesn't seem worth it.

No, money is DEFINITELY not enough. It's not a bad thing to want to go into medicine PARTLY for the money and the job security, but there are enough really crappy parts of the job that if you go into medicine for money alone, it's just not worth it.

Well, well. That is fan-freaking-tastic for you.

However, as for me, I'm a girl. The idea that being a doctor can help you pick up chicks excites me significantly less than it excites you. Trust me, when you're a girl, saying that you're a doctor doesn't really help you pick up guys.

Furthermore, will that girl who was so impressed by your "med student" status stick around when you're on q3 call for a month? When you don't have any free weekends? When you can't spend a lot of time on her because you're busy studying for a big exam? Or will she start spending more time with another guy who might have a less "prestigious" job, but has more free time?

A lot of marriages and relationships fall apart because of medicine. It's not the wonderful rosy picture that you've painted.

well said chica

BTC · Jun 26, 2009

BluntSurgeon said:
Man I don't even know where to begin with that statement. Let's just leave it at you are terribly terribly wrong and short-sighted.

I would like to see where you begin.

Please, enlighten us before you cast a larger generalization than the person you are replying to.

PreMedHopeful · Jun 26, 2009

money and prestige are some reasons why to become a doctor, but not the most important: you want to help people heal and get better with your skill, talent, knowledge, and basically that's why you want to be a doctor, it's for the love of healing not for the love of money or fame....jeez

FSAP · Jun 26, 2009

All I'm saying is if what you want in life is chicks, money, power and chicks, then going to med school is a guaranteed route if you don't mind medicine, and working and studying really hard till your early 30s.

You must be quite a charmer in life.

DH78 · Jun 26, 2009

To The OP:

Hey Bro! Let's pop our collars and head on down to the club. We'll grind on some chicks and drop our med status on 'em, and watch 'em line up to go home with us. We'll Twitter about it the next day!

SarahJ · Jun 26, 2009

BTC said:
I would like to see where you begin.

Please, enlighten us before you cast a larger generalization than the person you are replying to.

Women use the "female card" as an excuse when a man outperforms her? Can someone please enlighten ME, what does that involve? Who does that? When?

As a woman in healthcare I've never used the card and I'll never need to. Nobody's outperforming me, but its nice to know I have this fall back card to use in case of emergency- wasn't aware. I'm sorry if you don't have that FatKid, but maybe if you worked harder instead of complaining that your white male-ness is limiting your handouts, you wouldn't need it.

Gallix23 · Jun 26, 2009

takeaguess said:
All I'm saying is if what you want in life is chicks, money, power and chicks, then going to med school is a guaranteed route

epic

@ januarylily: I know people who went into finance and other business areas and are making DIRT and still living with their parents, so there is some flaw in that plan....

Col Kurtz · Jun 26, 2009

FatKid said:
OP:

Go into medicine for whatever reason you want.

Your class will consist of about 66% people who are complete brainwashed liberal tools who will tell you how much they like helping people, meanwhile they are applying to Dematology and Plastic Surgery.

33% of your class will be cool people. Hang out with these people.

And you must be part of the 1% who are douchebags. People with whom you disagree are not brainwashed, they think differently from you.

8mile · Jun 26, 2009

To the OP:

A physician surely does make a comfortable amount of money. But once you start living life in a gated community where all of your neighbors are successful, and everyone drives a BMW and/or Mercedez, you will realize that a physician's salary will only really provide for you a upper middle class life.

If a comfortable upper middle class life is fine with you, then by all means pursue medicine. The prestige of medicine is still there, because honestly not many people can become doctors. Most people also don't know what physicians do exactly, they have a faint familiarity with the profession through the highly dramatized television shows that they see on TV.

Anyways, to become truly rich, you have to have a talent or skill that is highly sought after.

Another thing, people always say that plastic surgeons who practice in Beverly Hills are rich. Trust me they're not. The high cost of overhead of opening a clinic in Beverly Hills and the major competition from all the other plastic surgeons push down the average Beverly Hills plastic surgeon's income. Add into it the fact that a house in Beverly Hills will cost at least $2 million, living life just on a physician salary doesn't seem that great.

Okay, in short, become a physician if you want a comfortable, stable, upper middle class life.

Col Kurtz · Jun 26, 2009

SarahJ said:
Women use the "female card" as an excuse when a man outperforms her? Can someone please enlighten ME, what does that involve? Who does that? When?

As a woman in healthcare I've never used the card and I'll never need to. Nobody's outperforming me, but its nice to know I have this fall back card to use in case of emergency- wasn't aware. I'm sorry if you don't have that FatKid, but maybe if you worked harder instead of complaining that your white male-ness is limiting your handouts, you wouldn't need it.

Oh, snap!

amph119 · Jun 26, 2009

Dr Gerrard said:
THERE IS NO EASY WAY TO MAKE TONS OF MONEY. PERIOD.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

I'm rooming with a financial analyst during medical school. He was telling me the other day how lucky he is to have a job. The post-undergrad job placement rate in 2009 at his university (a GREAT, nationally renowned, private university) was...

wait for it

wait for it

20 (twenty) percent! In other words, 1 out of 5 college grads this year had a job set up to begin the summer after their senior year, or, more importantly, 4 out of 5 DIDNT. The latest research says that the economy will not recover completely back to the point where investment banking was guaranteed $$$$$$$$ for possibly up to 6 years. At that point, I will be halfway through my residency at that time, with a real salary in the not-too-distant future.

I'm not going to get into the prestige and money argument thing here, because I know what my reasons are for going into medicine, and while those were of course considerations, they were nowhere near the top. However, the crux of the matter is (as a broad generalization), graduates of this year can't find a job, and the graduates of a few years ago are losing theirs. I don't know about you guys, but for those reasons, and since I am very confident that I will love the profession itself, money and prestige aside, I am DAMN happy with my decision to go into medicine.

gd152 · Jun 26, 2009

januarylily said:
easily

And this is the part that you have wrong. I've already been there and done that. $300k/yr. But it sure wasn't easy.

Gallix23 · Jun 26, 2009

BluntSurgeon said:
Man I don't even know where to begin with that statement. Let's just leave it at you are terribly terribly wrong and short-sighted.

He actually isn't entirely wrong with saying that from financial aid/acceptance points of views. This year, a few kids from my graduating class (including myself) got into a pretty tough university to get into which had a history of not accepting kids from our city. Naturally, everyone who got in decided to go there, and we all awaited our financial aid packages due to the schools costly bill. This is where the "white male" thing comes into play.

There were 4 white males (including myself) who received NOTHING for financial aid. The two white females, who were valedictorian and salutatorian, got very little from financial aid. However, EVERY Asian and Hispanic kid who got accepted nearly got full boats to the school. We are all in similar financial situations at home, yet the financial aid was skewed terribly. So yes, there are situations out there where being a white male (or even a white female) hurts your chances of certain things, as sad as that is in this day and age.

vickpick · Jun 26, 2009

hmm, money and prestige?

idk if 150k-200k net a year will be "Money" after 8 years...

I mean, there are people who make like half a million a year......

But, I do think that if you dont mind helping people - no matter how stupid - the medical field is worth it. The money and other things aren't tht bad afterall...

circulus vitios · Jun 26, 2009

JimmerJammerMrK said:
Oh man. I'm so sick of hearing this. You know what most people who go into finance do these days? They do the books for some tiny company at $25/hour, or manage a restaurant.

"Finance" and "consulting" are so broad. 99% of the people who say they're in finance work as a bank teller for $10/hour. The same goes for consultants who do janitorial consulting. :laugh:

circulus vitios · Jun 26, 2009

januarylily said:
you know, i used to think like you too, when my parents brainwashed me into thinking that being a physician would be the path to money, fame, and fortune. and then i went to college and found the real money-making professions: FINANCE and CONSULTING.

i met people in college who were planning on making their first million by the time they're 30. you can't do that as a physician. good luck making a million in your lifetime as a PCP. lol. do you even know how much analysts at consultanting and finance firms make?? they make 60k base plus bonus, usually 60-100% of their base salary. you could be making 100k+ in your first year out of college. if you rise up in the ranks, you could be easily swinging 250k+ by the time you're 30, without an MBA.

considering the opportunity costs of medical school (that is, not only the $$ involved to go to school, but also the money you could be making while you're in school), being a physician is wwaaaayyyy down on the list of lucrative jobs.

if you're smart enough to go to a good medical school, you're probably smart enough to land a job at a decent bank or consulting firm.

and don't even get me started in private equity or VC....

so basically, i don't really think money is enough of a motive because frankly, if money were your motive and you were smart, then you wouldn't go into medicine because you would know that there are waaay easier and waaay better ways to make money than through medicine.

note: i realize the the investment banking industry is not what it used to be since it's imploded but trust me on this one, those banks are still hiring new analysts and the industry is going to come back. their job is to make money and they're gonna keep on doing it until there is literally no more money to be made.

Analyst jobs only last for 2-3 years. After that you're either asked to leave, you burn out, or you're promoted to associate. IBD analyst jobs aren't an easy way to make money - they can and do work 80-100 hours a week. Sure, analyst gigs have good exit opportunities. Some (who don't burn out or are asked to leave) use it as a stepping stone to venture capital/hedge fund/private equity/etc jobs, but there is a MUCH bigger risk. Getting in is tough enough, since Ivy pedigree is strongly preferred, but I heard rumors that UBS actually rescinded offers for first year analysts!

Oh, and keep in mind that $60k base plus a best case scenario $60k bonus is pathetic for working 80 hours/week+ in NYC.

Excelsius · Jun 26, 2009

Same old stale arguments. Half complain about how doctors don't make enough money, that reimbursements are too low, and the sacrifice is too much... yet their title still says "pre-med" or even worse, "med student." Then you have the naive "rich" flock and the altruist "piss poor" pack.

What is really the bottom line here? It is that anyone here arguing that going into a single profession is automatically going to guarantee wealth is wrong. This is because it is not your profession that is going to make money for you. It is your own self who is going to be the determining factor on how wealthy you get. Why is it so hard to understand this trivial concept? You can be an internist and be rich if you play your cards well, which includes working extra hard on investments, making other people work for you and garnishing the profits, etc. You can also be a poor plastic surgeon if your business IQ is low enough, just like some of those millionaires on the Wall street ended up on the street because they squandered all their money. If you are smart about money, you'll be well off in pretty much any profession. This is why some plumbers and engineers can make more money than many doctors without having to work half as much. Doctors are not really that smart, but everyone around here assumes they are. There lies the problem.

You are in denial to think that any one profession is going to make you wealthy. Sure, certain professions make it easier, but only you can close the deal. I am pretty sure that if the only thing you know about life is biology by the time you finish your residency, you are not going to be one of those wealthy ones. So instead of planning on dating hot chicks and making a lot of money, I suggest you spent your extra free time reading books on dating, psychology, and economics, instead of spending every waking hour wasting your time in some student club or doing a senseless volunteering service at some hospital. You are wasting your potential, if any. The difference between successful people and the unsuccessful ones is breadth of knowledge and experience. If by the time you start your residency you have never held a regular job and never made any money making schemes/deals, do you actually believe that somehow magically you are going to have the time during your residency (or even after it) to become a business guru? I don't think so. I am an optimist and believe that everything is possible, but you also have to face the reality. It is all too easy to say to yourself that all you have to do to become rich is to pursue certain medical fields. If you're already not pretty shrewd, that is not going to happen. The sooner you realize that you are in denial, the sooner you will have the opportunity to properly supplement your knowledge about money management before you hit the tough schedule of residency. And contrary to what you believe, those women in clubs are not looking for someone who is going to spend a lot of money on them or is necessarily "nice" to them. Sure, that can score you points, but in clubs and at that level the opposite of being nice has a much better effect. By this I mean that you don't shower a potential mate with money to allure her. She'll think you're a chump - and you are. Again, you are in denial, be it about women or money.

Note that busting your ass in college for a 4.0 and not having time for anything else, including real work, also works against you. It just means that by the time you finish residency your knowledge about money will not be much better than that of a high school student. Same thing about dating.

P.S.: My PI has a simple PhD. He doesn't spend a day in the lab, but does manage administrative issues. Goes on vacation every few weeks, works 9 to 5, and doesn't have calls. He has a meeting in Canada, he is driving his bike there. That's right, a two weekday trip. He has funding for millions of dollars just for his lab and he himself is very wealthy. I also know a regular RN (manager) who just bought her second house, brand new Lexus (~$100K), and is supporting her dentist husband. This goes against the SDN misconception that PhD < MD in terms of money and shows that personal ability is >>>>> PhD+MD+Finance. These conversations about what profession makes what amount of money are pointless, though they do add a false sense of security and hope. If you're not good with money now, that is not suddenly going to change. If you're not good with "chicks," that is not going to change by itself either, whether you become a medstudent, a resident, a doctor, or Jesus the Christ.

amph119 · Jun 26, 2009

Excelsius said:
Same old stale arguments. Half complain about how doctors don't make enough money, that reimbursements are too low, and the sacrifice is too much... yet their title still says "pre-med" or even worse, "med student." Then you have the naive "rich" flock and the altruist "piss poor" pack.

What is really the bottom line here? It is that anyone here arguing that going into an single profession is automatically going to guarantee wealth is wrong. This is because it is not your profession that is going to make money for you. It is your own self who is going to be the determining factor on how wealthy you get. Why is it so hard to understand this concept? You can be a internist and be rich if you play your cards well, which includes working extra hard on investments, making other people work for you, etc. You can also be a poor plastic surgeon if your business IQ is low enough, just like some of those millionaires on the Wall street ended up on the street because they squandered all their money. If you are smart about money, you'll be well off in pretty much any profession. This is why some plumbers and engineers can make more money than many doctors without having to work half as much.

You are in denial to think that any one profession is going to make you wealthy. Sure, certain professions make it easier, but only you can close the deal. I am pretty sure that if the only thing you know about life is biology by the time you finish your residency, you are not going to be one of those wealthy ones. So instead of planning on dating hot chicks and making a lot of money I suggest you spent your extra free time reading books on dating, psychology, and economics, instead of spending every waking hour wasting your time in some student club or doing a senseless volunteering service at some hospital. The difference between successful people and the unsuccessful ones is breadth of knowledge and experience. If by the time you start your residency you have never held a regular job and never made any money making schemes/deals, do you actually believe that somehow magically you are going to have the time during your residency (or even after it) to become a business guru? I don't think so. I am an optimist and believe that everything is possible, but you also have to face the reality. It is all too easy to say to yourself that all you have to do to become rich is to pursue certain medical fields. If you're already not pretty shrewd, that is not going to happen. The sooner you realize that you are in denial, the sooner you will have the opportunity to properly supplement your knowledge about money management before you hit the tough schedule of residency.

Note that busting your ass in college for a 4.0 and not having time for anything else, including real work, also works against you. It just means that by the time you finish residency your knowledge about money will not be much better than that of a high school student.

P.S.: My PI has a simple PhD. He doesn't spend a day in the lab, but does manage administrative issues. Goes on vacation every few weeks, works 9 to 5, and doesn't have calls. He has funding for millions of dollars just for his lab and he himself is very wealthy. I also know a regular RN (manager) who just bought her second house, brand new Lexus (~$100K) and is supporting her dentist husband. This goes against the SDN misconception that PhD < MD in terms of money and shows that personal ability is >>>>> PhD+MD+Finance. These conversations about what profession makes what are pointless, though they do add a false sense of security and hope.

Amen. Also, I love you.

Trismegistus4 · Jun 26, 2009

takeaguess said:
Does that make sense or am I missing something?

Yeah, you're missing the fact that you will have to spend all day every day actually practicing medicine for the rest of your life, which, if you don't really like the nitty-gritty, daily grind of medicine, will suck more than anything has ever sucked before.

Dissected · Jun 26, 2009

Excelsius said:
Same old stale arguments. Half complain about how doctors don't make enough money, that reimbursements are too low, and the sacrifice is too much... yet their title still says "pre-med" or even worse, "med student." Then you have the naive "rich" flock and the altruist "piss poor" pack.

What is really the bottom line here? It is that anyone here arguing that going into a single profession is automatically going to guarantee wealth is wrong. This is because it is not your profession that is going to make money for you. It is your own self who is going to be the determining factor on how wealthy you get. Why is it so hard to understand this trivial concept? You can be an internist and be rich if you play your cards well, which includes working extra hard on investments, making other people work for you and garnishing the profits, etc. You can also be a poor plastic surgeon if your business IQ is low enough, just like some of those millionaires on the Wall street ended up on the street because they squandered all their money. If you are smart about money, you'll be well off in pretty much any profession. This is why some plumbers and engineers can make more money than many doctors without having to work half as much. Doctors are not really that smart, but everyone around here assumes they are. There lies the problem.

You are in denial to think that any one profession is going to make you wealthy. Sure, certain professions make it easier, but only you can close the deal. I am pretty sure that if the only thing you know about life is biology by the time you finish your residency, you are not going to be one of those wealthy ones. So instead of planning on dating hot chicks and making a lot of money, I suggest you spent your extra free time reading books on dating, psychology, and economics, instead of spending every waking hour wasting your time in some student club or doing a senseless volunteering service at some hospital. You are wasting your potential, if any. The difference between successful people and the unsuccessful ones is breadth of knowledge and experience. If by the time you start your residency you have never held a regular job and never made any money making schemes/deals, do you actually believe that somehow magically you are going to have the time during your residency (or even after it) to become a business guru? I don't think so. I am an optimist and believe that everything is possible, but you also have to face the reality. It is all too easy to say to yourself that all you have to do to become rich is to pursue certain medical fields. If you're already not pretty shrewd, that is not going to happen. The sooner you realize that you are in denial, the sooner you will have the opportunity to properly supplement your knowledge about money management before you hit the tough schedule of residency. And contrary to what you believe, those women in clubs are not looking for someone who is going to spend a lot of money on them or is necessarily "nice" to them. Sure, that can score you points, but in clubs and at that level the opposite of being nice has a much better effect. By this I mean that you don't shower a potential mate with money to allure her. She'll think you're a chump - and you are. Again, you are in denial, be it about women or money.

Note that busting your ass in college for a 4.0 and not having time for anything else, including real work, also works against you. It just means that by the time you finish residency your knowledge about money will not be much better than that of a high school student. Same thing about dating.

P.S.: My PI has a simple PhD. He doesn't spend a day in the lab, but does manage administrative issues. Goes on vacation every few weeks, works 9 to 5, and doesn't have calls. He has a meeting in Canada, he is driving his bike there. That's right, a two weekday trip. He has funding for millions of dollars just for his lab and he himself is very wealthy. I also know a regular RN (manager) who just bought her second house, brand new Lexus (~$100K), and is supporting her dentist husband. This goes against the SDN misconception that PhD < MD in terms of money and shows that personal ability is >>>>> PhD+MD+Finance. These conversations about what profession makes what amount of money are pointless, though they do add a false sense of security and hope. If you're not good with money now, that is not suddenly going to change. If you're not good with "chicks," that is not going to change by itself either, whether you become a medstudent, a resident, a doctor, or Jesus the Christ.

Wow...that was a pretty epic post. I liked it

MONEY and PRESTIGE is a good enough reason to become a doctor

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