Med School at 48 - why I'm not discouraged

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EdLongshanks

EdLongshanks

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I am 46. I have 2 more years of pre-med before I can get into medical school. I have older children and a good wife. I have a good career and income as a Software Engineer (not 6 figures, but close) and a nice house.

This semester I am re-taking Physics I (twenty years is to long ago to remember) Chem II, Cellular Biology and Genetics. I volunteer 2 times a month at the homeless shelter, go to church regularly, work full time and help my kids with their college work. I'll also be doctor-following 3 hours a week. I won't make anything less than an A in anything.

I've read all of the discouraging advice. There is discrimination in the admissions process. There is discrimination in the residency positions. I won't be able to handle the physical challenges of a residency. Med school is financial suicide. I'll never pay back my student loans. I've heard all of this, but frankly, I'm less than convinced of the life-skill abilities of these discouraging posters.

Firstly, if I'm able to juggle classes, family, church, work, and volunteering then a residency has no ability to scare me.

Secondly, who cares about finances? At the age of 20 I was living in a cardboard box. At 46 I have a two-story house with an inground pool. My joy in life was not significantly different in either case. I know how to prosper and I know how to be in want. I am working toward helping people. Who cares if I have to go back to a studio apartment with my wife. My children will all probably be moved out by then anyway. Someday I'll get the pool back.

Now, my question. I already have stellar volunteer activities (electoral office, extensive church-teaching experience, and a life-time of service with homeless, bus ministries, food ministries, etc). I am weak in clinicals, but I'm trying to take care of that with the doctor following. I'll also do some work at the homeless clinic. I have no research and with a full-time job I won't be able to get any. Right now my GPA is over 3.8 and I would be shocked if my MCAT next April didn't at least reach 33 (I was a National Merit Scholar and I eat standardized tests for breakfast). I hope to do much, much better than that.

I would like to see if I could get not only accepted into Medical School, but whether I could go to a highly rated one or possibly get a scholarship to my in-state school. I won't ask my chances (I know that is a "low") but tell me my possibilities. I ran for political office in the past because I am confident that I can beat the odds, but I want to know the difference between possibilities and impossibilities.
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EdLongshanks said:
I am 46. I have 2 more years of pre-med before I can get into medical school. I have older children and a good wife. I have a good career and income as a Software Engineer (not 6 figures, but close) and a nice house.

This semester I am re-taking Physics I (twenty years is to long ago to remember) Chem II, Cellular Biology and Genetics. I volunteer 2 times a month at the homeless shelter, go to church regularly, work full time and help my kids with their college work. I'll also be doctor-following 3 hours a week. I won't make anything less than an A in anything.

I've read all of the discouraging advice. There is discrimination in the admissions process. There is discrimination in the residency positions. I won't be able to handle the physical challenges of a residency. Med school is financial suicide. I'll never pay back my student loans. I've heard all of this, but frankly, I'm less than convinced of the life-skill abilities of these discouraging posters.

Firstly, if I'm able to juggle classes, family, church, work, and volunteering then a residency has no ability to scare me.

Secondly, who cares about finances? At the age of 20 I was living in a cardboard box. At 46 I have a two-story house with an inground pool. My joy in life was not significantly different in either case. I know how to prosper and I know how to be in want. I am working toward helping people. Who cares if I have to go back to a studio apartment with my wife. My children will all probably be moved out by then anyway. Someday I'll get the pool back.

Now, my question. I already have stellar volunteer activities (electoral office, extensive church-teaching experience, and a life-time of service with homeless, bus ministries, food ministries, etc). I am weak in clinicals, but I'm trying to take care of that with the doctor following. I'll also do some work at the homeless clinic. I have no research and with a full-time job I won't be able to get any. Right now my GPA is over 3.8 and I would be shocked if my MCAT next April didn't at least reach 33 (I was a National Merit Scholar and I eat standardized tests for breakfast). I hope to do much, much better than that.

I would like to see if I could get not only accepted into Medical School, but whether I could go to a highly rated one or possibly get a scholarship to my in-state school. I won't ask my chances (I know that is a "low") but tell me my possibilities. I ran for political office in the past because I am confident that I can beat the odds, but I want to know the difference between possibilities and impossibilities.
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definitely mention that in your personal statement.
 
EdLongshanks said:
Who cares if I have to go back to a studio apartment with my wife...
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Maybe your wife?


If you nail the MCAT you could probably get in to a well-regarded school. I dont know about scholarships. You may have to go D.O. because of your age.

Seriously, though, you will be at least 56 when you finish residency. Probably with sizable debt. If you are working towards helping people, consider the PA profession. How much more happiness will you actually net from 6 more years of training, twice the debt, and less time in actual practice?

Best of luck.
 
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There is no way in the world that I will have to go to a DO school because of my age. I don't believe it. While most interviewers might be willing to discriminate based on age, this is not true of all of them. Since my GPA is high and I assume that my MCAT score will be high (if this assumption turns out wrong I can re-evaluate) and my volunteer activities are beyond stellar, then any school which is not engaging in illegal discrimination is going to ask me to come. While I know that some schools will discriminate, all of them won't.

As far as the "PA" route. Why should I? I would be 50 before I graduated as a PA. I would then be working at PA/resident wages the rest of my life. I already out-earn a PA. Compare this to getting an MD at age 53 and working as a doctor immediately. A resident is, after all, a doctor and he already outranks a PA. I can then do missionary work in third world countries during my time off. My missionary friends already have some ideas on how I could help them.

If necessary I can do all of this with a "DO" but I really doubt that will be necessary. This ain't the 1800's and my name ain't Dr. Michaela Quinn.
 
mfrizzo3 said:
What exactly is your question?
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My question is what is possible for me, not what is likely. I know that it is possible for me to get into a reasonably good allopathic school - especially an in-state school. I also know that this would be unlikely for a less committed student - but committment is not one of my weaknesses.

I wonder if it is even possible, though, to dream of a scholarship.

Besides, my question, I also have an opinion. My opinion is that the "you're to old to get into an allopathic school" attitude is way too negative.
 
Rock on. Hey, no one knows your potential better than you do. I wish you the best!
 
Dude, you need to show at least a modicum of humility. You think you're going to rock the MCAT, but you haven't even started studying for it. Plus, why don't you want to go to an osteopathic medical school? If you really want to help people as you say, then being a DO will allow you to do just that.

I'm married as well, and I'm 29. I felt bad changing careers at 27 when I started my prerequisites because it meant that we would have to put certain things on hold (buying a house) and certain things would be much more difficult (having children). Is your wife really totally OK with this decision at your age? As a married man, you should strongly consider how this is going to affect her. If she is not behind you 100%, then it will strain your marriage.

I think you should evaluate your situation very closely. Being almost 50 years old doesn't mean you have to watch paint dry and wait to die, but seriously, medical school? You can still be effective in ministry and be productive without going to medical school at this point in your life.
 
Humility is not one of my strengths. This must be a surprise to you all.

My wife is traditional and likes stability. No, she ain't all for this. I expect a strain or two (hundred), but after 20 years, that's kind of like straining a redwood tree. It can stand a few pushes and pulls. Money isn't her issue. She was raised without indoor plumbing and, like me, knows how to either be in want or to excel. She just doesn't like change.

I actually have started studying for the MCAT.

I am already effective in ministry. But after looking at what I could do with the rest of my life, this is the case where I can make the most impact. There is a missionary in India that would love for an MD to come and go into the back country with him. They would send word around that an American doctor was available and then start a revival right there. There is no one else in our fellowship willing or able to do this.

I can. I can especially do it precisely because my children are grown and I am the age that I am.

I don't understand why anyone thinks this is so horrible. Medical school is disruptive to anyone's life. It would have been much more disruptive if I had tried it while I had young children. Now that my wife and I are settled and strong, now that I no longer have to worry about changing diapers or ferrying to school, now that I only have to support myself and my wife. Why shouldn't I use this freedom to set myself up to be a medical missionary for the next 20 o 30 years after I get out of med school.

I say 20 or 30 years because most of the missionaries that I know continue to work well into their 80's. We just buried one missionary woman who was over 90. She just retired from a life of riding mules into the mountains and canoes onto the islands 5 years ago.
 
EdLongshanks said:
There is no way in the world that I will have to go to a DO school because of my age. I don't believe it. While most interviewers might be willing to discriminate based on age, this is not true of all of them. Since my GPA is high and I assume that my MCAT score will be high (if this assumption turns out wrong I can re-evaluate) and my volunteer activities are beyond stellar, then any school which is not engaging in illegal discrimination is going to ask me to come. While I know that some schools will discriminate, all of them won't.

As far as the "PA" route. Why should I? I would be 50 before I graduated as a PA. I would then be working at PA/resident wages the rest of my life. I already out-earn a PA. Compare this to getting an MD at age 53 and working as a doctor immediately. A resident is, after all, a doctor and he already outranks a PA. I can then do missionary work in third world countries during my time off. My missionary friends already have some ideas on how I could help them.

If necessary I can do all of this with a "DO" but I really doubt that will be necessary. This ain't the 1800's and my name ain't Dr. Michaela Quinn.
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I agree. I don't know why people keep tossing out the "become a PA" for someone that is older. Hell, with that logic why not become a medical assistant since that is one year program. PA does not equate to an MD/DO.
 
there were about 15 student over 30- i've been out of residency for 10 years it can be done
 
I started medical school at age 46 (was accepted into 6 out of the 6 allopathic schools that I applied to); finished at age 50 and entered General Surgery residency at a very strong university program. Have now completed residency and fellowship and have found little discrimination at any point in this process. The discrimination that I have found was not because of age but more because of race (I have encountered more than one person who didn't believe I was a physician because of my color or didn't want to be treated by a black physician).

My grades and MCAT score were quite competitive as was the rest of my application. I ended up with a full-ride scholarship for medical school and now have a solid academic practice that I love. My partners are awesome (all male) and I totally enjoy my research, teaching and clinical duties. Is this for everyone? Certainly not, but I am blessed to be strong, healthy and senile instead of just senile. 😀 If this is what you want and you have the physical and mental energy to pursue it, then go for it. I didn't know that I was supposed to fail at age 46 and I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to become a physician. Now, folks are stuck with me. :laugh:
 
edlongshanks said:
humility is not one of my strengths. This must be a surprise to you all.

My wife is traditional and likes stability. No, she ain't all for this. I expect a strain or two (hundred), but after 20 years, that's kind of like straining a redwood tree. It can stand a few pushes and pulls. Money isn't her issue. She was raised without indoor plumbing and, like me, knows how to either be in want or to excel. She just doesn't like change.

I actually have started studying for the mcat.

I am already effective in ministry. But after looking at what i could do with the rest of my life, this is the case where i can make the most impact. There is a missionary in india that would love for an md to come and go into the back country with him. They would send word around that an american doctor was available and then start a revival right there. There is no one else in our fellowship willing or able to do this.

I can. I can especially do it precisely because my children are grown and i am the age that i am.

I don't understand why anyone thinks this is so horrible. Medical school is disruptive to anyone's life. It would have been much more disruptive if i had tried it while i had young children. Now that my wife and i are settled and strong, now that i no longer have to worry about changing diapers or ferrying to school, now that i only have to support myself and my wife. Why shouldn't i use this freedom to set myself up to be a medical missionary for the next 20 o 30 years after i get out of med school.

I say 20 or 30 years because most of the missionaries that i know continue to work well into their 80's. We just buried one missionary woman who was over 90. She just retired from a life of riding mules into the mountains and canoes onto the islands 5 years ago.
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ok.
 
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EdLongshanks said:
Humility is not one of my strengths.
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Even if you can get the academic qualifications, you're still going to have to make it through interviews where people will have to like you... so I suggest working on that 🙂
 
You are the inspiration... I'm currently 35 and debating whether to try for med school.... I have doubts about my physical strength... (by the way, I'm female); My husband is supportive but after reading your posting, I'm thinking I need to have more confidence in my self... Good luck to you and May God be with you!
 
SoftwareKevin said:
Even if you can get the academic qualifications, you're still going to have to make it through interviews where people will have to like you... so I suggest working on that 🙂
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As my wife often says to me... "Truth, Lard"
 
EdLongshanks said:
I would like to see if I could get not only accepted into Medical School, but whether I could go to a highly rated one or possibly get a scholarship to my in-state school. I won't ask my chances (I know that is a "low") but tell me my possibilities. I ran for political office in the past because I am confident that I can beat the odds, but I want to know the difference between possibilities and impossibilities.
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Nothing you have proposed is logically or inherently impossible, which you obviously know yourself. I think we will all be interested in seeing how things turn out for you. Please keep us posted. 🙂
 
echo523 said:
You are the inspiration... I'm currently 35 and debating whether to try for med school.... I have doubts about my physical strength... (by the way, I'm female); My husband is supportive but after reading your posting, I'm thinking I need to have more confidence in my self... Good luck to you and May God be with you!
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It's the arrogance of age. You'll have more of it in a few years also. One gets used to succeeding and you start to understand that you can do anything that you set your mind to.... IF you're willing to pay the price.

Think of how many doubts you used to have when you were 18 and graduating high school - how you hid your fears under bravado, but you truly knew you weren't an adult yet. Years later you can't imagine why you were so afraid of Chem I.

Life breeds a certain confident arrogance in most people.

There are the opposite kind, of course. The "Learned Helplessness" people. I deal with them among the homeless population all the time. The Psychologist Martin Seligman identified the syndrome. These people have failed so often that they give up. It's a sad condition and very hard to cure.
 
Wow. Amazing determination. I hope you find what you're looking for.
 
njbmd said:
I started medical school at age 46 (was accepted into 6 out of the 6 allopathic schools that I applied to); finished at age 50 and entered General Surgery residency at a very strong university program. Have now completed residency and fellowship and have found little discrimination at any point in this process. The discrimination that I have found was not because of age but more because of race (I have encountered more than one person who didn't believe I was a physician because of my color or didn't want to be treated by a black physician).
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Oh yeah, well I've mastered Madden 2009 on the xBox and am one of the best players in America.
 
This is going to sound ridiculous but one of the most awakening moments in my life was while I was working at a DSL call center right after high school. I was on the phone with a woman who was 65 years old. She had just finished a Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science and had moved to a new city to take a position as a entry level developer with Northrop Grumman. After being a nurse for 40 years she said nursing was getting the better of her and she decided she wanted to try something new.. so she did. She said she faced opposition from her husband, her family, her academic advisors, and from basically all angles. However, she did it.

In the process of figuring out why her DSL wasn't turned on yet, she taught me a lesson about life that I've carried with me since: It's never too late for anything. If the average life expectancy is 80 years old, at her age she was only 75% finished with her life when she started back at school. That's what way she put it.

In one hand, I think it's sad that a 65 year old woman isn't able to retire like she should be after 40 years of Nursing. In the other, I take pride in knowing that even thought I've taken a very non-traditional route to Medical School it's not too late. It's never too late.

You should know, though, as my Sergeant at the P.D. used to say, "there's a fine line between coming across as confident or arrogant."

Regardless, if your wife supports you and you're not going to piss away your family to do it, keep on keepin' on and don't let anyone tell you anything is impossible.
 
CopToPharm said:
If the average life expectancy is 80 years old, at her age she was only 75% finished with her life when she started back at school. That's what way she put it.
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I think that you hit the nail on the head when you talk about life expectency instead of retirement age. My Dad retired at 55. That is the same age that I will be in residency. But my Dad is still doing well over 25 years later. He had at least another 20 years of productive work in him.

I think that people most people look forward to their golden retirement age starting at 55, or 65 or 67. But some of us start thinking about retirement and think "why should I retire? I LIKE doing things."

What prompted my decision is precisely looking toward retirement. Do I really want to hang around the house for years, or decades? Or, even worse, do I want to join the Good Sam RV'ers club and be bored at the Grand Canyon, or do I want to spend my golden years curing disease and saving lives.

To me, it's no competition.
 
EdLongshanks said:
I think that you hit the nail on the head when you talk about life expectency instead of retirement age. My Dad retired at 55. That is the same age that I will be in residency. But my Dad is still doing well over 25 years later. He had at least another 20 years of productive work in him.

I think that people most people look forward to their golden retirement age starting at 55, or 65 or 67. But some of us start thinking about retirement and think "why should I retire? I LIKE doing things."

What prompted my decision is precisely looking toward retirement. Do I really want to hang around the house for years, or decades? Or, even worse, do I want to join the Good Sam RV'ers club and be bored at the Grand Canyon, or do I want to spend my golden years curing disease and saving lives.

To me, it's no competition.
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The Good Sam RV'ers club is the sole reason I go to work every morning and also why I am accumulating a large savings account.

truckcamper.jpg
 
EdLongshanks said:
But some of us start thinking about retirement and think "why should I retire? I LIKE doing things."
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My ex-girlfriend's grandfather was like that. He basically wanted to work until he died. He owned a coal trucking business and still drove just like the dozens of guys who he employed. Ultimately, they took his CDL license because they didn't feel it was safe for him to be driving and he died about a month later. All the man ever knew was work... they took it away and might as well have shot him on the spot.

Me? I want to retire some day and travel... but I want to also think that if I decide not to retire at 65 I can still be some use to someone before I kick the bucket!
 
We need more compassionate and mature doctors in this world. As you seem to not have these qualities, I am hoping that medical schools will not offer you a seat until you correct this.

Let me clarify: you are an academically motivated student who doesn't let age get in the way. That's good. But you are also prideful and (falsely) arrogant. People with your disposition have horrible bedside manner and make for lousy clinicians.

This whole thread was created to stroke your ego. You started off by describing how accomplished you are: how much money you make, how many stories your house is, and you mentioned several times your prestigious electoral office (city council?).

You then contrasted yourself with

EdLongshanks said:
The "Learned Helplessness" people. I deal with them among the homeless population all the time. The Psychologist Martin Seligman identified the syndrome. These people have failed so often that they give up. It's a sad condition and very hard to cure.
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So, there's winners like you, and then there are people like the homeless who just can't hack it. Your compassion for those less fortunate is overwhelming

The major risk factors for homelessness include being a war veteran and suffering from a severe form of mental illness. There are more homeless people on the streets with schizophrenia then there are people receiving treatment for it. The fact that you have been been around these people and yet you still label them as 'learned helplessness' shows a lot about your character

Let me also correct some of your critics. Financially, if you want to work until your 75, it's a great decision for you to go to medical school. This is because you currently don't earn very much for a software engineer with any amount of experience (you're in the lower 10-25th percentile). Also, your story of going from a "cardboard box" to a house with an "inground pool" is the sort of cheesy rhetoric you'd expect from an unimaginative stump speech

While I admire your academic determination, you are proof that one can grow old but not age. You speak as though you're in you're in your twenties. Age, contrary to what you said, breeds wisdom, which goes hand in hand with humbleness. Wisdom is knowing what you don't know. You felt the need to brag about your house and income, and contrast yourself with the homeless. This scream insecurity. Insecurity is the opposite of being self-aware, and this is not the hallmark of a person tempered with life experience.
 
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iloveDrStill said:
We need more compassionate and mature doctors in this world. As you seem to not have these qualities, I am hoping that medical schools will not offer you a seat until you correct this.
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You jumped to several incorrect conclusions. I hope you don't do this when you examine patients.

Firstly, I said that I had dealt with the "learned helplessness" syndrome among the homeless. I did NOT say that all homeless people were suffering from this.

There is a considerable population of schizophrenics (5 to 10 %) among the homeless, but the picture of the homeless bag-lady muttering to herself is a stereotype. The companion, more "socially aware" picture of the poor vet, mistreated by war and an uncaring government, is an even worse stereotype, one that doesn't even have good examples to go by and is harmful to those men to whom it is applied. These men DON'T need someone else telling them how it's someone else's fault.

A large majority of the permanent male homeless population suffers from substance abuse. If they didn't have this problem before becoming homeless, they gained it afterwards. As one guy told me a few days ago, "I just want to stop feeling bad for a little while." This guy has done so much crack that the high only lasts 5 minutes now. The female population has different pathologies.

You have to realize these people are "Classes". They aren't the "schizo class" or the "homeless vet class" they are PEOPLE. These people can be helped only by their real problems being treated by people who care, not necessarily by government programs. Their pathologies are often similar, but they are personal and require a personal approach.

Contrary to your assumptions, I am not in the least bit uncaring about any of my friends downtown. In fact, my sermon to them just two weeks ago was "Hard Questions", the main one was "Why am I down here when people who have done much worse than me are living in big homes and doing well."

Your second incorrect assumption is that my income in Oklahoma can be compared to national norms. An income of 120K in Portland or New York is not comparable to what can be earned by a software engineer where I choose to live. Besides, I know very few "Software Engineer V's", but most of them are in a closed basement in a secure facility somewhere (I'd tell you the location, but it is "undisclosed") lest contact with the world contaminate them. That is not my particular goal in life. My company doesn't hire this level of programmers; they aren't necessary for our work.

It is true that I have a certain arrogance of having pulled myself up by the bootstraps. You can call the "cardboard box to inground pool" story cheezy, but it didn't feel very mozzarella at the time (more like Kraft processed cheese-like "food" ). Those who have been born to privilege and walked through life without ever hitting bottom may scoff, but since I actually accomplished this, then I think it makes a fairly compelling personal story. I'm sorry that it offended you.

The purpose of the thread was not to stroke my ego - although I admit that my right foot may thump a little when my back is scratched - but to counteract what I considered as an overly negative set of comments that I read toward those who try to go to Med School in their late 40's.

Here's another part of my life that may explain the attitude. When I was 23, right after I escaped the card board box, I was working for a porta-jon company, pumping ... uh.... something. I decided that I was not going to spend another winter standing in the snow in rubber boots and .. well . doing unpleasant things. When I got accepted at a university all of my "friends" tried to discourage me. "You'll borrow a bunch of money and get yourself deep in debt and never recover" they said. I refused to be discouraged then and I refuse to be discouraged now.
 
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You said you wanted rational odds, here is my take:

You're 46 and you hope to matriculate at 48. First off, that is best case. You could be 49 or even 50 before you get accepted. You'd be looking at finishing medical school between 52 and 54 depending on if/when you get accepted. Then you have at least 3 years of residency, so you're going to be 55-57 at the minimum. That leaves you 10-15 years to get out from under >$100,000 debt and, hopefully, sock a little money away for retirement (or work right up to the end of your life).

I'm going to be frank and say your odds aren't very good. It's your life, though, live it how you want to. Don't jump on people who are giving you realistic odds, though.
 
Simplify said:
You said you wanted rational odds, here is my take:
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Thank you. I have a followup question. What are you measuring? I mean, you say my odds are low. Are those my odds for getting into med school, the odds of completing training, of completing residency, of paying off my debt, or my odds of being happy with me decision?
 
BTW, I know this is off-topic, but be wary of quoting government statistics and studies about the homeless. These statistics and reports are often gathered by people who are seeking grants or pushing an agenda.

The person that you want to talk to about he homeless population is the local manager of the homeless shelter, or the guy who runs the downtown AA or Narcanon meeting. These folks know the difference between the people who get off of the streets and the people who chronically stay.

The statistics of mental illness among the homeless population are inflated by those homeless people who fake illness in order to receive a disability check.

I'm sorry for the off-topic post. I am pretty passionate about downtown work.
 
EdLongshanks said:
Thank you. I have a followup question. What are you measuring? I mean, you say my odds are low. Are those my odds for getting into med school, the odds of completing training, of completing residency, of paying off my debt, or my odds of being happy with me decision?
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I'd say your odds of getting in. I don't think they're impossible odds, though. As far as whether or not you'll be happy, you're the only person qualified to make that judgement.
 
Simplify said:
You said you wanted rational odds, here is my take:

You're 46 and you hope to matriculate at 48. First off, that is best case. You could be 49 or even 50 before you get accepted. You'd be looking at finishing medical school between 52 and 54 depending on if/when you get accepted. Then you have at least 3 years of residency, so you're going to be 55-57 at the minimum. That leaves you 10-15 years to get out from under >$100,000 debt and, hopefully, sock a little money away for retirement (or work right up to the end of your life).

I'm going to be frank and say your odds aren't very good. It's your life, though, live it how you want to. Don't jump on people who are giving you realistic odds, though.
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If an applicant is otherwise qualified, age isn't going to be a factor in admissions. Currently, there are students in my schools that are in their late 40s (one of my classmates started at age 53 and is now happily practicing on a native american reservation with all tuition paid off). With that being said, certainly most older applicants already have the retirement plan as they have been working at other professions (unlike a traditional student). Many have accumulated a fairly substantial estate in addition.

If the OP has decided that medicine is the career that he/she wants to pursue; presents a competitive application, then age isn't going to keep them out in 2009.
 
Of course it is possible to get into med school with your current stats and life story, and and allopathic school. I'm sure DOs and DO students hate the idea that DO schools take less competitive students, but that reputation continues to be fostered by the AMA. As for being "weak" in clinicals, your volunteer experience is just that, an experience to self test your awareness and affinity for the work you want to do. Every one in medical school rotations starts "weak" and is going to make more than one mistake, so no worries there.

As for the research, many applicants have it and many don't. It is a composite thing, the MCAT scores, GPA, volunteer work, personal interview, etc. Of course, the majority weight for the applicant remains on academic performance, but you don't sound as you have any problems in that area.

So, best of luck. Keep your grades up, nail the MCAT, and keep your focus at interviews. You should do fine. There is some discrimination for older students in the process, but as in much of life, being older doesn't impact older MEN as much as it does older WOMEN, so again, you come out ahead.
 
EdLongshanks said:
Life breeds a certain confident arrogance in most people.
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By most people you mean you, right?

No one here is trying to negate your accomplishments, or even tell you you cant get into med school. If you nail your MCAT, get some actual clinical experience under your belt, and present yourself in a way that is a bit more humble than your posting style, you should be able to get in. I wouldn't bank on a scholarship, though, unless you're a minority. Research isnt critical, but if you are weak in other areas it does help. And don't discount the DO path; I know it's less "prestigious" and doesn't stroke the ego as much, but a doc is a doc.

I get the impression this is more about personal accomplishment for you than it is a passion for medicine. That's fine; it doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a bad doctor, but it isn't the best premise to enter into 8 years of training and debt equivalent to buying a new home.

So--your odds of getting in? Totally depends on your MCAT score and CV in two years. Better for DO than MD.

Your odds of getting a scholarship? Low to nil.
 
Why are we beating up on the op for having what sounds like reasonable confidence in his abilities. If you're a person who's done well on standardized tests in the past, I think it's fair to assume you'll do well on the MCAT provided you put in the proper work. The same is true with classwork in general. And how can we judge someone's passion for medicine based on posts on a message board? Come on, people, SDN insight into who should or shouldn't be a doctor isn't too great.

As for the question, yeah, if your stats are where you think they'll be, and you don't blow your interview, you probably will get into your state school (it's also my school, so I know a little more about their admissions than other posters here). OU has admitted students in their 50s recently, so your age won't keep you out. As for scholarships, we don't have a ton of big ones. You might maybe get a big one your first year, but my scholarship award has decreased each year I've been a student here. So if you don't have money saved, you probably will have to borrow, and that's where you're going to have to figure out whether or not you can pay off loans on your income doing the work you want to do.

You might be able to get admitted to top tier schools, too, but scholarships are harder to get at those schools, and lots are need-based. You'll probably be screwed in that category because they'll look at your current income to determine that. You don't need to go to a top school to do what you want to do, though.
 
Doctor Bagel said:
Why are we beating up on the op for having what sounds like reasonable confidence in his abilities. If you're a person who's done well on standardized tests in the past, I think it's fair to assume you'll do well on the MCAT provided you put in the proper work. The same is true with classwork in general. And how can we judge someone's passion for medicine based on posts on a message board? Come on, people, SDN insight into who should or shouldn't be a doctor isn't too great.

As for the question, yeah, if your stats are where you think they'll be, and you don't blow your interview, you probably will get into your state school (it's also my school, so I know a little more about their admissions than other posters here). OU has admitted students in their 50s recently, so your age won't keep you out. As for scholarships, we don't have a ton of big ones. You might maybe get a big one your first year, but my scholarship award has decreased each year I've been a student here. So if you don't have money saved, you probably will have to borrow, and that's where you're going to have to figure out whether or not you can pay off loans on your income doing the work you want to do.

You might be able to get admitted to top tier schools, too, but scholarships are harder to get at those schools, and lots are need-based. You'll probably be screwed in that category because they'll look at your current income to determine that. You don't need to go to a top school to do what you want to do, though.
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Thank you. This is useful information and answers my question precisely. OU is not the most prestigious school, but, as you say, prestige doesn't really add much to my life goals. Certainly OU is a better economic fit for me. I could keep my house here in Tulsa and commute down to OU for the first 2 years. My wife has tolerated bad housing for most of her life and really, really, wants to keep this middle-class/american dream home.

I'm sorry that my earlier posts sounded like Bill Clinton bragging about his new millionaire status. I suppose we red-necks are subject to a "movin-on-up" attitude once we feel like we've arrived.
 
Doctor Bagel said:
Why are we beating up on the op for having what sounds like reasonable confidence in his abilities. If you're a person who's done well on standardized tests in the past, I think it's fair to assume you'll do well on the MCAT provided you put in the proper work. The same is true with classwork in general. And how can we judge someone's passion for medicine based on posts on a message board? Come on, people, SDN insight into who should or shouldn't be a doctor isn't too great.
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I think we are "beating up" on the op for the same reason, we beat up on everyone with his sort of attitude: even though he is most of our elder, he is still a pre-med, and his attitude should probably be checked at the door if he does plan to get into medical school. There is a difference between being confident and being pompus.

As for the question, you should not have any problem getting into a good school with your history (again as long as you can learn a bit of humility in the next 2 years). Now if you are looking to get into an actually top tier academic institution (Johns Hopkins, Ivy league, Mayo) your age may be a discriminatory factor (even though nobody will admit it). Otherwise if you can pull off a mid to upper 30s MCAT and hold onto your 3.8, the sky is pretty much the limit with or without research (as long as the school your applying to doesn't require this, obviously). Like Doctor Bagel said, you will not be the oldest med student every to matriculate.

I do have to say for someone who has been through so many hardships it is hard to believe you are not more humble.
 
BruceBanner said:
By most people you mean you, right?

I get the impression this is more about personal accomplishment for you than it is a passion for medicine. That's fine; it doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a bad doctor, but it isn't the best premise to enter into 8 years of training and debt equivalent to buying a new home.
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Woo. In order to get judged that harshly I usually have to go to church 🙂.

In order to be a good Christian I must practice self-judgment, so I have to admit that you may be right that there is some status-seeking corner in the most hidden part of my evil heart. Is anyone here innocent? Isn't this kind of like saying to an 18 year old boy, "I sense that you have been playing with yourself."

But, on the other hand, in truly looking back over my life and last few years, I have to acquit myself. (The jury was hung for awhile, but finally brought in a verdict). I find that my actions have typically been geared toward getting credentials only when I needed them for access to ministry. I didn't even call myself a "minister" until men who I was dealing with ended up in jail and I had to get credentials before I could visit them to counsel and pray.

And, upon self-examination, I believe that this is the real reason that I am hesitant to go the DO route. There are still too many places where they don't think someone is a "real" doctor unless they have that "MD" after their name. I fear that I might not be able to treat some people who otherwise could be helped.
 
EdLongshanks said:
And, upon self-examination, I believe that this is the real reason that I am hesitant to go the DO route. There are still too many places where they don't think someone is a "real" doctor unless they have that "MD" after their name. I fear that I might not be able to treat some people who otherwise could be helped.
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What people are those?
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
I do have to say for someone who has been through so many hardships it is hard to believe you are not more humble.
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I once did a Bible study on pride. I started telling one of my friends about what I had discovered. He replied, "You know, Ed, you really understand about pride. Maybe you understand it so well because you have so much." He and I both laughed and remained friends.

The people that I have the problem with aren't the ones who think that I am arrogant (guilty) or that are themselves confident. The ones who are hard to handle are the people who think that they are themselves greater because they could tear someone apart.

The reason I was in the cardboard box, so many years ago, is because a low-life "pastor" who had never graduated high-school was intimidated by someone who went to Bible school. He worked at destroying my self-confidence and succeeded. He proved to me that I couldn't hammer a nail or cut a board straight. He convinced me that no one would employ me and I had to work for him for $20/week until he decided that I was worth hiring.

It turned out, later, that this married "pastor" was using one of the young divorced mothers in the church as a mistress.

Predators like this thrive on convincing people of their helplessness. "You can't do it. No one will let you in. No one could love you like I do. You'd drive anyone to drink. I wouldn't get so mad if you didn't mouth off so much."

I recognize the attitude and have no use for it. My message to the homeless is consistently the opposite. You CAN do it. You are NOT helpless. God DOES have a plan for your life and it is a great one. You DON'T have to be here forever.
 
EdLongshanks said:
I once did a Bible study on pride. I started telling one of my friends about what I had discovered. He replied, "You know, Ed, you really understand about pride. Maybe you understand it so well because you have so much." He and I both laughed and remained friends.

The people that I have the problem with aren't the ones who think that I am arrogant (guilty) or that are themselves confident. The ones who are hard to handle are the people who think that they are themselves greater because they could tear someone apart.

The reason I was in the cardboard box, so many years ago, is because a low-life "pastor" who had never graduated high-school was intimidated by someone who went to Bible school. He worked at destroying my self-confidence and succeeded. He proved to me that I couldn't hammer a nail or cut a board straight. He convinced me that no one would employ me and I had to work for him for $20/week until he decided that I was worth hiring.

It turned out, later, that this married "pastor" was using one of the young divorced mothers in the church as a mistress.

Predators like this thrive on convincing people of their helplessness. "You can't do it. No one will let you in. No one could love you like I do. You'd drive anyone to drink. I wouldn't get so mad if you didn't mouth off so much."

I recognize the attitude and have no use for it. My message to the homeless is consistently the opposite. You CAN do it. You are NOT helpless. God DOES have a plan for your life and it is a great one. You DON'T have to be here forever.
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Sounds like you were brainwashed by religious fear/fervor. Makes for a less convincing story than being so poor that you had to live in a cardboard box.

Sorry.
 
tkim said:
Sounds like you were brainwashed by religious fear/fervor. Makes for a less convincing story than being so poor that you had to live in a cardboard box.

Sorry.
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Not religious fervor. By a predator who thrived on pushing people down. The religion was tangential to his method. Please don't fall into the common trap of equating religion with the predator who uses religion.

As you say, it makes for a less compelling bottom of the barrel story. If you have dealt with people at te bottom or, in the future, deal with them, you will find out that most of them have pathologies of this sort. In America there are many, many catch points before homelessness. Despite what you hear, most people are not "one paycheck away from the streets". The woman cries and cries because that mean old court system took her children away. The man whines that the Tulsa Housing Authority won't let him in because "I just did a couple things wrong."

The fact that they did something wrong should not prohibit them from getting help of some sort. When they get back on track, then I think that their ambition should be admired, despite their previous errors.

I think that this subject may actually be appropriate in this forum after all. Doctors deal with this sort of thing all the time. I tried to help one man who could not overcome epilepsy. But his epilepsy was actually a side-effect of his alcoholism.
 
EdLongshanks said:
Not religious fervor. By a predator who thrived on pushing people down. The religion was tangential to his method. Please don't fall into the common trap of equating religion with the predator who uses religion.
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I didn't. You sound like a guy who had a weak mind and was used by someone who knew how to use your religious background to his advantage.

As you say, it makes for a less compelling bottom of the barrel story. If you have dealt with people at te bottom or, in the future, deal with them, you will find out that most of them have pathologies of this sort.
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I may have dealt with a homeless person or two. You see, I'm a physician. I work in the emergency department. We get lots of homeless people there. But thanks for the paternalism.

In America there are many, many catch points before homelessness. Despite what you hear, most people are not "one paycheck away from the streets". The woman cries and cries because that mean old court system took her children away. The man whines that the Tulsa Housing Authority won't let him in because "I just did a couple things wrong."

The fact that they did something wrong should not prohibit them from getting help of some sort. When they get back on track, then I think that their ambition should be admired, despite their previous errors.
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Most of the homeless people I've met and treated have been that way for years. I have yet to meet that many newly homeless. But thanks for the lecture, padre.

I think that this subject may actually be appropriate in this forum after all. Doctors deal with this sort of thing all the time. I tried to help one man who could not overcome epilepsy. But his epilepsy was actually a side-effect of his alcoholism.
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Yes, we do deal with this stuff all the time. Thanks.

I may be reading your posings entirely wrong, but your level of religious righteousness and sanctimony really pisses me off. It's this hint of smugness and belief that you will get what you want because you are who you are. I admire the humble religious man. The arrogant one makes me puke.

Your tone and style of writing does not remind me of a forty-six year old, more like a 70 year old who sits in a rocking chair, and throws out a few 'by crackys' and 'dabgums' with every sentence. Best hope whomever interviews you is as religious as you, or you're screwed.
 
tkim said:
I may be reading your posings entirely wrong, but your level of religious righteousness and sanctimony really pisses me off. It's this hint of smugness and belief that you will get what you want because you are who you are. I admire the humble religious man. The arrogant one makes me puke.

Your tone and style of writing does not remind me of a forty-six year old, more like a 70 year old who sits in a rocking chair, and throws out a few 'by crackys' and 'dabgums' with every sentence. Best hope whomever interviews you is as religious as you, or you're screwed.
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Yeah, you're taking me totally wrong. Since you are a resident in a emergency ward (sory for missing the status) I doubt that you disagree with me about the people who are homeless. Some of the people who posted here earlier were quite insulting to me when I said that "learned helplessness" was a problem among the homeless. They said that I lacked compassion for them. A person who says this sort of thing has not dealt with many homeless people. You have and so, I assume, would not take this tack.

The confidence that I project in this thread is an intentional reaction against those who say that someone in the 40's cannot be a doctor and his chances of getting accepted into any allopathic school is low. I should be satisfied with a DO or with a PA. That's nonsense, as several who have been accepted into allopathic schools - and in particular my state school - have shown. The title of this thread is "why I am not discouraged". There are several posters in the threads referenced in the sticky threads at the top of this forum who act as if a man in his 40's is only a breath away from a wheel chair and dotage. I think that they are being entirely too negative and the determination that I display in this thread is a reaction against it.

As far as your gratuitous insult of "weak mind". Time has robbed it of the sting. My whole point in the story is that I was indeed preyed upon during a weak time in my life - a time when young men look to be helped by the men who are in a mentoring position. Instead of rejecting his manipulation I allowed the abuse. But I eventually left the abuser behind and created a new life for myself, one in which I am reasonably proud - and although it doesn't exceed what others of my age are living - neither is it significantly less.

I'm not sure what you mean by interviewers needing to be as religious as I. I realize that there are anti-religious zealots out there. I hope you're not one of them. But most people, whether religious or not, admire a religion that causes a man to spend his own money and time and use them to help others.

While I agree with you that homeless people are very difficult to help, I have in my lifetime been instrumental in a few rescues from the homeless life and I am reasonably proud of these also.
 
Hey Ed,

I have read your replies and OP. You have great motivation and determination. That is half the battle! I also wanted to tell you about a web site that is very supportive and has vast amounts of information for the non-traditional pre-med and medical students (like us) I have found it extremely helpful many times. Its called oldpremeds.com there are many..many people there in the same situation as us, like I mentioned. There are also many who have done it, meaning earned their MD or DO as an older (sometimes much older) student. I hope you take time to check it out. If not, best of luck to you!!
 
maddux31 said:
Hey Ed,

I have read your replies and OP. You have great motivation and determination. That is half the battle! I also wanted to tell you about a web site that is very supportive and has vast amounts of information for the non-traditional pre-med and medical students (like us) I have found it extremely helpful many times. Its called oldpremeds.com there are many..many people there in the same situation as us, like I mentioned. There are also many who have done it, meaning earned their MD or DO as an older (sometimes much older) student. I hope you take time to check it out. If not, best of luck to you!!
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Wow, that's a great site. Thanks.
 
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