A solution to selection by race...Individualism

Loki · Apr 20, 2003

Problem:
-I am white
-I am male
-I grew up poor (my mother's best year was $18,000 as a telemarketer
-I attended ~20 school including 3 high schools
-I was raised by a single mom
-I graduated last in my high school class
-At one of my high schools in Calif, I could not pass the minimum math skills exam required for graduation (I passed in another state with lower standards)
-I worked full time from the age of 13
-I stood in the grocery store line and experienced the "not enough money put stuff back" episode again and again
-My mom worked 60+ hours a week for her meager earnings (no education)
-We used food stamps many times
-I got more than my share of hunger
-I washed my clothes in the tub (yes in the trailer) as there was no washing machine and dryer and no quarters for the laundrymat

Solution:
-I joined the military the day I turned 18
-I received basic academic and life skill instruction from the Air Force
-I learned how to study in a system where I was fed and clothed
-I aquired a grip on basic math
-I spent the next 10 years working my way up the rank structure
-I eventually won many medals and decorations for technical contributions to effective air war (my engineering systems are used to drop GPS weapons such as the JDAM)
-I won soldier of the year (airman of the year) honors
-I *started* college at 28 when I felt I could deal with the academics.
-By the time I started college, I had no tution assistance from the Air Force as these programs are designed for recruts not vetrans (I did not get the GI Bill) so I paid for the whole thing out of my pocket
-I worked 60+ hours during the six years that I attened college (it took six years because I doubled in Computer Science and Biology)
-I slept an average of two hours a night (working third shift and full time academic work) during those six years. My schedule intesified drastically after 9-11
-I finally beat my math problems by finishing my computer science requirments (up to Calc III no diffy Q...I took linear Alg instead)
-I graduated with Highest honors (3.9 somthing GPA)
-I took the MCAT once and scored way above average

Medical School
-In my first year
-Have a URM in my class from the same high school I graduated from (****ty school with low standards in the hood)
-Few people have gone on to attend professional schools from my high school. its rare
-The URM did not take the military route
-I am in the top 1/2 of the class (perhaps top 1/3), not great but I am happy

Summary:
-The military is the greatest social program in the world
-The GI bill (although I never saw it) has educated thousands and has contributed to the GDP of our country
-You must work and learn in the military system
-You are treated fairly within the military system
-AA in the military exists and hurts minority soldiers (special consideration for promotion and awards)

There is always a way to "find your way out" in our country without AA.

If we support AA, our country becomes a handout nation in which its members dishonor those who came before with mediocrity.

phatsebz · Apr 21, 2003

ur awesome man...i salute u

kreno · Apr 21, 2003

Even in the military, so-called "minorities" are disproportionately represented in combat and other roles...

AA is not a matter of hand-outs... it's a matter of considering the greater social benefits of its implementation compared to the marginal costs (i.e lower "stats").

just my two cents

kreno

P.S. And I, likewise, salute you.. what you accomplished is remarkable.... and also EXCEPTIONAL. Literally, you are the exception... but when considering social programs... aggregates must be considered, not individual experiences...

irlandesa · Apr 21, 2003

congrats on all your accomplishments.. however, how do you know for sure that the URM in your class was admitted b/c of AA? Most people who go to med school don't come from disadvantaged backgrounds, so it is quite an accomplishment to get into med school coming out of that type of background regardless of your race. It is not fair to assume that someone got in via AA b/c they are black or Hispanic. My problem with AA is not the idea of recruiting minority physicians or helping disadvantaged minorities; those are noble principles and I approve.. The problem is that the current system allows wealthy applicants who are 1/4 or less black or Hispanic and have no intention of working in an underserved area (and very little understanding of their racial or ethnic background) to abuse AA to their advantage and get in with low stats.. Therefore, the program ends up not helping the people it was meant to help. well, I won't write anymore since by the time this issue is resolved on SDN I'll probably be 90 years old..

kreno · Apr 21, 2003

No doubt there are problems with AA. Indeed, there are people who get in and have no intention of serving undeserved areas, etc. Likewise, there are affluent, non-minority people who do just that. However, the evidence shows that, as a whole... minorities *ARE* statistically more likely to serve in needed areas, etc... thus, one of many social positives which are gained from the admittence of minorities INCLUDING affluent minorities with AA.

Lastly... It's easy to critisize AA... and I agree, it has a lot of problems, etc. Nonetheless, do you have any better ideas for allowing for a more equal/proportional professional society that represents the racial proportions as a whole?

kreno

Loki · Apr 21, 2003

Originally posted by Slickness
Your post does not knock down AA. It is still needed. [/
QUOTE]

I guess I should have been more direct.

I took the ACT during my senior year; I ended up getting a very low score. I read somewhere that a chimp got the same score I got, which basically means I received a score comprable to random guessing. In fact, I remember watching "Hoop Dreams" which is a film about great high school basketball players who could not qualifiy for athletic scholarships due to low ACT scores (they outscored me). These were black kids from the inner city (Chicago I think).

My point is, no one should receive a benifit or a "plus" because of the color of his/her skin.

If you have academic problems as I had (bottom of the class with a 15 ACT), you are not fit for the academic enviroment of higher learning. So how do you, as and individual, fix this? Find a way to improve...I joined the military and reinvented myself and repaired my broken down academic machine.

Thus, if someone like me can pull him or herself up from a 15 ACT and a D---- GPA from High School to honors university work and good MCAT...then anyone can, regardless of the color of his/her skin. Then, you have removed the question of race from the selection process, those who are most competive get in by merit not skin color.

Think about this, if a student is not qualified, he or she can go get some remedial training until they are qualified. If you let people in because of skin color, hate and anger will continue.

We should encorage URMs who are not qualified to seek methods to improve their qualifications before they are permitted entry into competive academic programs. Remember, it can be fixed, not by giving a handout. That will not fix jack.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for life.

Loki · Apr 21, 2003

Originally posted by irlandesa
congrats on all your accomplishments.. however, how do you know for sure that the URM in your class was admitted b/c of AA? Most people who go to med school don't come from disadvantaged backgrounds, so it is quite an accomplishment to get into med school coming out of that type of background regardless of your race. It is not fair to assume that someone got in via AA b/c they are black or Hispanic. My problem with AA is not the idea of recruiting minority physicians or helping disadvantaged minorities; those are noble principles and I approve.. The problem is that the current system allows wealthy applicants who are 1/4 or less black or Hispanic and have no intention of working in an underserved area (and very little understanding of their racial or ethnic background) to abuse AA to their advantage and get in with low stats.. Therefore, the program ends up not helping the people it was meant to help. well, I won't write anymore since by the time this issue is resolved on SDN I'll probably be 90 years old..

I never said the URM was admitted due to his race, he is a bright guy. I am only pointing out that our background is similar. I received no advantage due to the color of my skin. Believe me, the military does not give a darn if you are purple green orange, whatever.

Ryo-Ohki · Apr 22, 2003

AA= Affirmative Action
A=number of hours used to study
B=total number of study hours available

If URM A/B >= non-URM A/B, then AA.

bennet · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Loki
My point is, no one should receive a benifit or a "plus" because of the color of his/her skin.
If you have academic problems as I had (bottom of the class with a 15 ACT), you are not fit for the academic enviroment of higher learning. So how do you, as and individual, fix this? Find a way to improve...I joined the military and reinvented myself and repaired my broken down academic machine.
Thus, if someone like me can pull him or herself up from a 15 ACT and a D---- GPA from High School to honors university work and good MCAT...then anyone can, regardless of the color of his/her skin. Then, you have removed the question of race from the selection process, those who are most competive get in by merit not skin color.

Think about this, if a student is not qualified, he or she can go get some remedial training until they are qualified. If you let people in because of skin color, hate and anger will continue.
We should encorage URMs who are not qualified to seek methods to improve their qualifications before they are permitted entry into competive academic programs. Remember, it can be fixed, not by giving a handout. That will not fix jack.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for life. [/B]

I agree with you to some extent. If a student has exam scores that are extremely low, an acceptance would be a waste because if he/she is not mentally prepared for med school courses, the person would end up flunking out anyways.

If you realistically look at the situation, you would see that AA is not aimed at candidates that are unqualified, but rather it is aimed at candidates that have the potential to succeed in medical school, but could be overlooked by the system if treated on a number-only basis. Which is why i get confused when med school applicants keep saying that they don't want to be treated on a number basis only, that they want to be seen on a wholistic basis, but yet they complain about AA.

Why is it okay for adcoms to look at a student with a low GPA from a tough undergrad .e.g MIT, and take their circumstances and environment into account, but yet when it comes to minorities who have had to deal with negative social effects that could have affected their studies, everyone screams "reverse discrimination"?

Why is it okay for a school to look favorably at a student with an average MCAT score, but with something unique or diverse to add to the class e.g peace corps experience, and a zeal to serve the medically underserved, but yet when it comes to dealing with minorities, everyone has a huge problem with it.

In my opinion, medical schools are right on target in that they seek to make their classes as diverse as possible, a quality which everyone eventually benefits from. If minorities are not well-represented, then it is okay for adcoms to look favorably at them, as long as they have showed an ability to handle medical school and its pressures. If Whites or Asians were underrepresented in medicine, i am pretty sure we wouldn't mind AA.

My last point is this----What is the big deal?? URMs only make up about 10% of med school classes (the last time i checked). Chances are if we didn't have AA, getting into med school will still be just as hard. We need to stop pointing fingers and try our best. If it is meant to happen, it will happen.

KRENO, i hope this is intellectually stimulating enough for you. I usually don't care too much about grammatical errors when i type on message boards (i am sure most people don't either). Nevertheless, i tried to watch out for typos on this one because i didn't want you to declare my post a worthless one

bennet · Apr 22, 2003

Sorry about the length of my post. I tried not to respond to any AA threads but i guess i finally gave in. :laugh:

Ryo-Ohki · Apr 22, 2003

No, bennet, I would feel the same way if the quota was .001% or if it was 90%. I would feel the same way if it was a white quota. And, of course, I would even feel the same way if it was a "people with rabbits as avatars" quota.

Racial discrimination is wrong, no matter how small in numbers you discriminate, no matter whom you discriminate against, and no matter if the discrimination benefits you personally.

bennet · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
No, bennet, I would feel the same way if the quota was .001% or if it was 90%. I would feel the same way if it was a white quota. And, of course, I would even feel the same way if it was a "people with rabbits as avatars" quota.

Racial discrimination is wrong, no matter how small in numbers you discriminate, no matter whom you discriminate against, and no matter if the discrimination benefits you personally.

I think your definition of discrimination needs a little refinement. Every school has the right to seek students that are diverse and underrepresented, both culturally and socially. e.g if a school rejected you but accepted a student who is just like you except that he/she has a lower Mcat score and has a unique experience that could contribute to the class' diversity, would you call that discrimination? I certainly wouldn't. I believe each candidate should be looked at in all areas, and if the person brings a much needed diversity to the class and to the profession of medicine in general, then the cause is a noble one, NOT discrimination. That is why ALL students are encouraged to make themselves stand out and be as unique as possible, when it comes to med school admissions. Even URMS still have to do this, because a good number of URMS are rejected each year.

kreno · Apr 22, 2003

Racial discrimination is wrong eH? I agree. So explain to me why african-americans consistently score lower on MCATs compared to their non-minority counterparts CONTROLLING for economic background? There are two possibilities... it's INNATE, i.e. GENETIC, or it's SOMETHING else.

Well, it's obviously *NOT* genetic.... that's absurd. So it must be something OTHER.

WHAT IS THAT "OTHER" factor? People would argue a variety of factors (and i'm intrigued as to what you think they are?). But.. the act of the matter is that we, as a society, need to address those "OTHER" factors... any ideas how we can do that?

Lastly, can you see how AA might address those factors as a society as a whole?

kreno

Ryo-Ohki · Apr 22, 2003

It's cultural. If you can show me that URMs are studying as hard and as long as non-URMs, then, my friend, I will be glad to jump on your AA bandwagon.

Bennet, define "unique experience". Is this "unique experience" a quality found in any other racial group? If not, then you are just using a modern version of the famous "literacy test".

bennet · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Bennet, define "unique experience". Is this "unique experience" a quality found in any other racial group? If not, then you are just using a modern version of the famous "literacy test".

I believe what i basically said is that seeking diversity in an applicant is not the same thing as discrimination. This diversity could be racial, cultural or social, basically anything that makes an applicant stand out as unique or different from the majority. The unique experiences i was talking about would fit under social diversity. e.g. an applicant has been to space before, or was once Miss America, or even things that are perhaps a little more common like having peace corps experience. These things make you different from the average applicant, and enable you to bring something extra to your med school class, in terms of diversity. I believe it is fully within the rights of a med school adcom to desire this, and to pick students that are different but have mediocre stats, over students that have more stellar stats with cookie cutter apps. If you are racially over represented, you still have the opportunity to make yourself an underrepresented candidate in many ways. Be unique and stand out.

Ryo-Ohki · Apr 22, 2003

You can certainly give points for being an astronaut diversity.
You can certainly give points for being Ms. America diversity.
But you can not give points for being black diversity.

Perhaps it will be clearer if I remove an excess word you seem to be hiding behind.
You can certainly give points for being an astronaut
You can certainly give points for being Ms. America
But you can not give points for being black

Moskeeto · Apr 22, 2003

Patient: I'm in a hospital! Why am I in here?

Doctor: You've had an accident involving a bus.

Patient: What happened?

Doctor: Well, I've got some good news and some bad news. Which would you like to hear first?

Patient: Give me the bad news first.

Doctor: Your legs were injured so badly that we had to amputate both of them.

Patient: That's terrible! What's the good news?

Doctor: There's a guy in the next ward who made a very good offer on your slippers.

bennet · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Moskeeto
Patient: I'm in a hospital! Why am I in here?

Doctor: You've had an accident involving a bus.

Patient: What happened?

Doctor: Well, I've got some good news and some bad news. Which would you like to hear first?

Patient: Give me the bad news first.

Doctor: Your legs were injured so badly that we had to amputate both of them.

Patient: That's terrible! What's the good news?

Doctor: There's a guy in the next ward who made a very good offer on your slippers.

what?

Mangs · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
It's cultural. If you can show me that URMs are studying as hard and as long as non-URMs, then, my friend, I will be glad to jump on your AA bandwagon.

This comment is completely unvalidated and smacks of prejudice. You are exactly why it remains important to have "diversified classrooms". Imagine if the halls of medicine were allowed to fill with individuals propagating your misguided and miseducated position? Imagine if "URMs" did not have an opportunity to challenge your thinking? Statements like this can go further..." Why do URMs seek medical care less than other groups...It's cultural..they don't want to be well." The possibilities are endless when you open up pandora's box of stereotypes. I think it's important to question and challenge practices in our society but be careful about how you articulate and rationalize your arguements. The above statement is complete bull---really...

As an aside, what is this homogenous "URM" world you are talking about??
Since all "URMs" obviously are the same??? Please tell us more about URM "cultural practices and norms" since you seem to have some self proclaimed expertise.

Next time you post, take a second and think----

curlyq · Apr 22, 2003

It's cultural. If you can show me that URMs are studying as hard and as long as non-URMs, then, my friend, I will be glad to jump on your AA bandwagon.

I normally don't like to get involved in these debates, but I just couldn't resist when i read that statement by Ryo-Ohki.

That statement was really insulting and just reeked of ignorance. I think it is sad that one has to resort to such blanket generalizations to make one's point. It weakens your overall argument and makes you appear to be prejudiced and even lazy. I mean it is easy to stereotype people, hell I could do it myself and say all non-URMS have it easy and never have to struggle. However I know that this is not true of all URMS therefore why make that statement?

Ryo-Ohki stick with the "facts" and other interesting points you have made in the past next time you post. Even though I disagree with much of what you have written in the past, I appreciated the way you presented your stance. Frankly I think you need to be able to listen to what the other side has to say in order to make thoughtful arguments yourself.

So with that lemme stop. I just hope that maybe you posted that statement just to get a rise out of people. If you really believe what you wrote..I don't know what to say. That would just be sad

-curlyq

Ryo-Ohki · Apr 22, 2003

Yes, I believe average URM is studying significantly less so the average URM is scoring significantly less.

Are you telling me that you believe the average URM is studying significantly more so the average URM is scoring significantly less?

soccerchick747 · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
No, bennet, I would feel the same way if the quota was .001% or if it was 90%. I would feel the same way if it was a white quota. And, of course, I would even feel the same way if it was a "people with rabbits as avatars" quota.

Racial discrimination is wrong, no matter how small in numbers you discriminate, no matter whom you discriminate against, and no matter if the discrimination benefits you personally.

Please define your take on discrimination. And then, tell me how your gross generalization that "URMS score lower b/c they arent studying hard enough" doesn't fit that definition.

soccerchick747 · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
It's cultural. If you can show me that URMs are studying as hard and as long as non-URMs, then, my friend, I will be glad to jump on your AA bandwagon.

This statement is contradictory to everything else you posted. So you would support "discrimination" so long as all parties in question worked equally? That would imply that you do recognize a need for AA in the first place.

Ryo-Ohki · Apr 22, 2003

I asked first, soc ^_~

Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

soccerchick747 · Apr 22, 2003

What the f do you mean "I asked you first..." you didnt ask me anything. I hadn't posted on this thread before. Just answer the question.

soccerchick747 · Apr 22, 2003

If you're going to make grossly discriminatory generalizations without any solid, verifiable, or even honest proof, expect to be called out. I'll assume that you've got at least a semester of college education under your belt, so I'd hope that you'd be capable of constructing a true argument.

kito · Apr 22, 2003

is anyone else tired of reading about AA? can we all just move on?

Ryo-Ohki · Apr 22, 2003

Ok, I'll repeat the question just for you

Who do you think spent more time studying for the MCAT, the average URM or the average non-URM?

Were you serious about wanting me to answer your question, or did you just want me to start fling monkey poop too?

soccerchick747 · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Who do you think spent more time studying for the MCAT, the average URM or the average non-URM?

Speaking from personal observations, the URMs I have encountered (my classmates) have spent significantly more time studying for the MCAT than the non-URMs. Our school sponsors a Kaplan-like MCAT session, and most non-URMs don't bother going, because they feel that it is a URM thing. And yes, the class is primarily URM. And the URMs in past years have done much better on the MCAT than non-URM majors. I am only speaking from my personal observations, because that is the only evidence I feel the right to present in such an argument. I hope you will do the same in future posts. While my classmates may be "freaks of nature" in their work ethic according to your logic, they aren't the minority, and to assume so is ignorant in itself.

I personally have to work harder in all subjects, especially on the MCAT, simply because english isn't my native language.

Would you also argue that women, on average, don't study as hard as men? Blacks and hispanics arent AA's only beneficiares.

Were you serious about wanting me to answer your question?

Click to expand...

Yes.

kreno · Apr 22, 2003

Ryo... don't you see how your generalizaations are discriminatory in and of themselves? Not necessarily because you think/believe that "minotiries study less" but rather how you link this to lower-scores and therefore a sort-of internalized argument that blacks could compete with white counterparts as long as they studied more... hence, why AA isn't fair.

So lets take your point to heart... for the sake of argument: If it's simply "Cultural" in that minorities score lower CONTROLLING for ECONOMIC factors, as I mentioned previously... WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THOSE CULTURAL FORCES which drive so-called phenomena like you mentioned such as "studying less"?

And once you think about that, please explain to me how you think such forces should be dealt with by society?

Seems to me AA would help break the cycle.... even with your argument.

3-D · Apr 22, 2003

It's cultural. If you can show me that URMs are studying as hard and as long as non-URMs, then, my friend, I will be glad to jump on your AA bandwagon.

This is one of the most insulting things I have ever heard. How can you make generalizations about an entire group of people? How can you make such an ignorant comment about a culture that you obviuosly know nothing about? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but when people make comments that continue to perpetuate ignorance and racism something must be said. Ridiculous stereotypes will do nothing but increase the resentment that already exists. Hence, voice your opinions on AA but keep the hurtful, untrue comments to yourself.

Ryo-Ohki · Apr 22, 2003

So you think the average URM spends more time studying then the average non-URM?
Despite studying more, the average URM scores significantly less on the MCAT then the average non-URM.

Wow. I don?t want to go into the implications if this is indeed true.

Fair enough. I?ll answer your question.
The overall question I am concerned with is; why is the average URM scoring significantly lower then the average non-URM? What specific factor could cause such a rift in scores? Is it SES? Educational opportunities? Of course, these proposed factors have been readily disproved.
The OP?s very poignant post about individualism got me thinking on an individual level. Instead of trying to come up with complicated factors on a mass scale to explain the difference, perhaps the answer is simpler. I thought, what has caused me to score lower on a test more then anything else? Lack of preparation. Lack of study.

This whole exchange illustrates a very good point. Anything that even remotely appears to cast a negative light on URMs will be shouted down from the rooftops as bloody racism. This tends to make people try to explain a very serious social phenomenon only in ways that do not cast a negative light. Sometimes, the truth is not flattering.
I cannot believe in good conscious that an URM who studies as much as a non-URM can score significantly lower. There isn?t a difference between URMs and non-URMs that would negate the study factor. Unless someone can show me studies that suggest otherwise or if my own research suggest otherwise, I will continue to believe this academic rift is caused by unequal study levels.

Joe Joe on da Radio · Apr 22, 2003

there's actually some validity to Ryo-Oki's statement in a lot of sociological discourse about this subject. the buzz word is, "anti-intellectualism."

soccerchick747 · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
So you think the average URM spends more time studying then the average non-URM?
Despite studying more, the average URM scores significantly less on the MCAT then the average non-URM.

Wow. I don?t want to go into the implications if this is indeed true.

Fair enough. I?ll answer your question.
The overall question I am concerned with is; why is the average URM scoring significantly lower then the average non-URM? What specific factor could cause such a rift in scores? Is it SES? Educational opportunities? Of course, these proposed factors have been readily disproved.
The OP?s very poignant post about individualism got me thinking on an individual level. Instead of trying to come up with complicated factors on a mass scale to explain the difference, perhaps the answer is simpler. I thought, what has caused me to score lower on a test more then anything else? Lack of preparation. Lack of study.

This whole exchange illustrates a very good point. Anything that even remotely appears to cast a negative light on URMs will be shouted down from the rooftops as bloody racism. This tends to make people try to explain a very serious social phenomenon only in ways that do not cast a negative light. Sometimes, the truth is not flattering.
I cannot believe in good conscious that an URM who studies as much as a non-URM can score significantly lower. There isn?t a difference between URMs and non-URMs that would negate the study factor. Unless someone can show me studies that suggest otherwise or if my own research suggest otherwise, I will continue to believe this academic rift is caused by unequal study levels.

Amazing. You managed to completely avoid my question. Where did this come from? You answered your own question. Here, I'll cut & paste:

-Please define your take on discrimination. And then, tell me how your gross generalization that "URMS score lower b/c they arent studying hard enough" doesn't fit that definition.

-Would you argue that women, on average, don't study as hard as men?

I didn't say that the "average" URM studies more/less than the "average" non-URM. I very specifically said that in my personal observations, URMS have studied more, and scored equal to or higher than non-URMS. Averages are useless in this argument. The "average" person who takes the SAT scores below a 1000. Just because the "average" american doesn't vote doesn't mean that the entire non-voting population should be denied certain democratic privileges. There is no "average" URM, just as there is no "average" non-URM. You can judge individuals as much as you want, but to generalize an entire group because of a few individuals is immature. And until you can present me w/ MCAT scores & GPAs for every minority applicant, your argument is useless.

I do respect you for standing up for what you believe in, but at least considering the other side is the best way to solidify your beliefs. I have read heavily into both sides of the AA debate (and I could probably come up with more reasons against it that you could), but I have personally reached the conclusion that is, for now, a necessary thing. I'm not trying to change your mind, because its already obvious that its impossible.

Cobragirl · Apr 22, 2003

Keep it clean boys & girls....I've received a complaint or two about this thread but upon reading I think we're still in the stages of just trying to clarify points. Some of the pro vs. con arguments are compelling, so I'll be waiting on pins & needles to see if you all can continue to make valid arguments without resorting to name-calling, blatant racism, or bigotry! This is a skill that you will need to hone well if you're to make it in med-school/medicine!

PS- soccerchick, I'd like to know where that AA money for women is....I certainly didn't get any of it & my background is VERY similar to Loki's...just without the military part (well, I **am** an active-duty Navy wife, but that doesn't pay for school!)

$165,000 in student loan debt & counting.....

soccerchick747 · Apr 22, 2003

Originally posted by Cobragirl
PS- soccerchick, I'd like to know where that AA money for women is....I certainly didn't get any of it & my background is VERY similar to Kreno's...just without the military part (well, I **am** an active-duty Navy wife, but that doesn't pay for school!)

$165,000 in student loan debt & counting.....

... I didn't say anything about money. AA and financial aid are different things, no?

kreno · Apr 23, 2003

actually, no, they're not. Affirmative action is not just some simplistic policy regarding education... but we tend to think about it that way 'cuz to the media's focus on it.

Rather, AA is a culmination of executive orders, court interpretations, state and local laws, and policies that AFFIRMATIVELY address the racial disparity issue in a variety of settings... employement (especially federal contract stuff, etc), school, military, etc.

Now, with that in mind, financial aid packages and such geared towards minorities, are, indeed, part of AA... although certainly not part of say, the argument brought to Umich right now before the supreme court. What THEY are looking at is very specific.

Needless to say, cobragirl, technically, is correct in her insinuation/interpretation

Tamomo · Apr 23, 2003

Congratulations on your accomplishments.

But, you are the exception and not the rule.

Loki · Apr 23, 2003

Originally posted by Tamomo
Congratulations on your accomplishments.

But, you are the exception and not the rule.

Isnt that the point? Change the exception into the rule. What I am proposing is an alternate approach to the problem.

Rather than using a broad social change, give the individual an opportunity to change his/her qualifications.

Cobragirl · Apr 23, 2003

I KNOW I am correct because from what I understand ALL of the black students (they are not all "African-American") in my class have received full scholarships and two of my close friends who are <1/4 Native American (actually probably less than 1/8 & 1/16 respectivelly) received substanstial aid packages as well. And without going into details, I will also say that NONE of them are from inner city/rural/impoverished (no more so than mine anyway) backgrounds. Matter of fact, a couple of them come from what I would consider extremely wealthy backgrounds. I'm NOT complaining....My classmates are awesome and I love them to death....I just wanted to let some of you know (if you didn't already) that there is a LOT more to AA than you may realize.

soccerchick747 · Apr 23, 2003

Originally posted by kreno
actually, no, they're not. Affirmative action is not just some simplistic policy regarding education... but we tend to think about it that way 'cuz to the media's focus on it.

Rather, AA is a culmination of executive orders, court interpretations, state and local laws, and policies that AFFIRMATIVELY address the racial disparity issue in a variety of settings... employement (especially federal contract stuff, etc), school, military, etc.

Now, with that in mind, financial aid packages and such geared towards minorities, are, indeed, part of AA... although certainly not part of say, the argument brought to Umich right now before the supreme court. What THEY are looking at is very specific.

Needless to say, cobragirl, technically, is correct in her insinuation/interpretation

Ok, I see your point, but you are making it seem like the two are interchangable, and don't exist independently. Most minority scholarships are either need based or merit based, but primarily need based. Not "You're a minority, so here's a bunch of money" scholarships. Again, most minority scholarships, if not all, are private, not government sponsored. Bill Gates, who's giving away his entire fortune before he dies, is giving a pretty nice chip of it (english: a billion at least) to schools that are lacking and minorities with financial need. If thats where he, or other donors, want to spend their money, so be it.

Well, I know the only scholarship I got was a small one that is sort of a TA stipend to cover room/board. I didn't get any merit or need based scholarships, though I qualify for both (parent's annual income~4,500/yr): with a 4.0 GPA and 1450SAT/ 32ACT) because I was (literally) called the week before classes started to come here (I was planning on going to school in colombia.

Cobragirl, money isn't always going to come looking for you, you have to be willing to look for it. AA isn't a "handout," as far as I've seen. There are so many options for you to repay your loans, there are dozens, if not hundreds of loan payback programs that only require a few years of service... if you're willing to put off your career for a few years, it will be a valuable option in the long run.

You mean to tell me that there are no scholarships for women? I definately don't believe that.

JamesTopes · Apr 23, 2003

Originally posted by Loki
Isnt that the point? Change the exception into the rule. What I am proposing is an alternate approach to the problem.

Rather than using a broad social change, give the individual an opportunity to change his/her qualifications.

Yours was a really inspirational story and its a testament to what makes America so friggin great. But what you're advocating is that people take more responsability which people wont do unless the have to. Given the choice, no one would want to give up perks that gives them substantial advantages to snag selective spots. Its just human nature but this society would be alot better off if more people shared the same attitude as yours. More so than any clumsy discriminatory practice that everyone acknowledges is phucked up.

geneman · Apr 23, 2003

Originally posted by soccerchick747
Amazing. You managed to completely avoid my question. Where did this come from? You answered your own question. Here, I'll cut & paste:

-Would you argue that women, on average, don't study as hard as men?

Didn't you just say "averages" are useless in this argument?

Averages are useless in this argument. The "average" person who takes the SAT scores below a 1000. There is no "average" URM, just as there is no "average" non-URM. You can judge individuals as much as you want, but to generalize an entire group because of a few individuals is immature. And until you can present me w/ MCAT scores & GPAs for every minority applicant, your argument is useless.

Lesson #1 when making national policy: Use averages to illustrate broad trends.

Lesson #2 when making national policy: Use individual cases to illustrate specific points.

Lesson #3 when making national policy: Do not let soccer-chicks take over national policy.

Just because the "average" american doesn't vote doesn't mean that the entire non-voting population should be denied certain democratic privileges.

Uhh....

soccerchick747 · Apr 23, 2003

Originally posted by geneman
Didn't you just say "averages" are useless in this argument?

Yes. I was asking a question in terms that Ryo-Okhi would be more likely to answer directly...obviously, it hasn't worked yet.

Lesson #3 when making national policy: Do not let soccer-chicks take over national policy.

If that's what you're boiling this debate down to, then you've got bigger problems than me taking over your country's national policy.

mdterps83 · Apr 23, 2003

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
It's cultural. If you can show me that URMs are studying as hard and as long as non-URMs, then, my friend, I will be glad to jump on your AA bandwagon.

Bennet, define "unique experience". Is this "unique experience" a quality found in any other racial group? If not, then you are just using a modern version of the famous "literacy test".

Seriously what is your hang-up on AA? I mean you certainly have a right to your opinion but is the signature necessary? And your 5+ responses to any AA thread?

Just worry about yourself.

AA isn't about study hours, nor is it reparations for minorities for past injustices. It is about the fact that racism is still prevalant in society and to eliminate it we must give more credit to minorities because they have faced this discrimination. It take minorities twice the work to go half as far. For those of you who doubt this take a look at the number of minority CEO's, Senators and Doctors. You can whine about AA all you want to, but no matter how preferential it is there is still a disparity in %'s of minority docs, despite it. Now I know some minorities get in have all the advantages, but they still got discriminated against, rich blacks are still black. Please don't ever try to tell me there is no longer racism in society.

care bear · Apr 24, 2003

i was actually surprised to see ppl jump on ryo-ohki for his most recent assumptions. leaving aside the fact that much of the stuff he tends to say abt AA is complete bull, and the fact that generalizing is never a good thing, i really don't see what's racist abt saying that the disparity between test scores *when income is controlled for* is probably due to study habits? that actually seems like common sense to me. . .

Mangs · Apr 24, 2003

okay..to sum up the behaviors of one or two people is one thing but when you go above and beyond and characterize an entire RACE of people...you are going to far. that is clearly prejudice. especially when you are not aquainted in a personal way to the community???

maybe it's that these applicants are too busy eating fried chicken and watermelon...come on
this is not constructive..
i go back to my question to ryo okhi...can you please describe to me the characteristics of this "culture" that you seem to be so well aquainted with...since you clearly seem to be culturally competant in the nuiances of life in black america.
and maybe, you can further turn your "theory" into a constructive solution for change that will replace the failed attempt u seen in AA..

Random Access · Apr 24, 2003

Originally posted by care bear
i was actually surprised to see ppl jump on ryo-ohki for his most recent assumptions. leaving aside the fact that much of the stuff he tends to say abt AA is complete bull, and the fact that generalizing is never a good thing, i really don't see what's racist abt saying that the disparity between test scores *when income is controlled for* is probably due to study habits? that actually seems like common sense to me. . .

Yeah, if you control for income, it's hard to make the argument that someone has more opportunities (e.g. taking prep classes, having tutors, etc.), as is often argued. Check out his other posts in the other thread, where people of disparate incomes are compared.

Mangs · Apr 24, 2003

you can control for "income" you can control for any other SES measures, education, occupation, you feel. however, the experience of a "URM" vs. "non-URM" will always differ by one major factor. racism. two students of different colors going through the same educational systems with the same opportunities may not have the same academic experience. the expectations of the "URM" by his/her teachers will be lower, the attention given to him/her will be less..all of these factors have huge implications on a childs learning experience. this is without introducing the struggles of poverty, violence, etc. racism in and of it's self is damaging to the psyche and there are emerging schools of thought that are linking the impact of racism to damaging health..for example, why is that black and white patients from the same SES have significantly different health outcomes..in all cases black being worse... and all URMs regardles of SES experience racism, whether they chose to acknowledge it or not.

racism, prejudice, and sexism ( i add sexism because there are numerous parallels with the experience of women) are ingrained in the fabrics of this society.

be wary of theories that are propagated from test cases involving one individual..
to roughly paraphrase.."i thought to myself, what causes me not to succeed...i fail when i don't study enough".
well that may be the case for your isolated experience but you can not use your frame of reference to analyze and address all segments of society. the way we are engaged in the world is completley different.

for those who are referencing anne fadiman's book, the spirit catches you...that is the CORE issue in her book. you have to be culturally competant when you are dealing cross culturally. you can not asses the needs of a community from your own perspective. the truth comes when you are immersed with in that cultural experience.
until you do that rhokyi (sorry for the misspelling), you will only see the issue with jaded eyes while you remain fixated on data that "doesn't add up".. just as the doctors at merced couldn't grasp why lia's hmong family did not fully embrace nor understand western medical care...and for those who have not read the book..i apologize for referencing it so extensively.
but you should read it.

learn from it and open your mind...the answers are not so simple..otherwise the issues we as a society have been contending with for decades would be easily resolved. the barrier comes when people hold on to their "data" and refuse to open their minds.

Random Access · Apr 24, 2003

Originally posted by Mangs
you can control for "income" you can control for any other SES measures, education, occupation, you feel. however, the experience of a "URM" vs. "non-URM" will always differ by one major factor. racism.

Well, that's partly why I asked Ryo-Ohki about it in the other thread. However...how would this account for the differences for Hispanics and Asians? Asians face racism too and yet are not a URM for med school admissions. This isn't only about black and white. In any case, it's an oversimplification to blame it completely on racism.

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