Questions About WesternU's Optometry Program

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Hi Everyone!

My name is Marie and I work in the Admissions Office at Western University of Health Sciences (WesternU). Since we are a new program and you are experiencing a new centralized application process, I thought it might be helpful to post here to let you know I’d be happy to answer any questions you have about our program or the application process in general.

I will do my best to provide you with honest and helpful feedback but I don’t feel it would be appropriate to talk about other programs. So, if you need any assistance, please don’t hesitate to ask.

Best of luck to you!

Marie
Admissions Office
WesternU College of Optometry
http://prospective.westernu.edu/optometry/welcome
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Is there anything you feel makes Western University's O.D. program stand out among the several offered by various schools in the United States?
 
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I'd be happy to summarize some of the unique features of WesternU's College of Optometry:

· WesternU's College of Optometry is part of a comprehensive Health Sciences University so you will share the campus with students from our other programs: osteopathic medicine, dental medicine, podiatric medicine, veterinary medicine, pharmacy, physical therapy, nursing and biomedical sciences.

·WesternU offers an interprofessional education curriculum. You will learn alongside students in other health professions in the classroom, in pre-clinical laboratories, in small group discussions, and in the clinical patient care setting.This curriculum encourages early networking with other health professionals and will ultimately prepare you to better serve patients through interprofessional collaboration and referrals.

·Another unique feature of the curriculum is students will experience problem-based learning (PBL) cases during their first and second years. These cases will present a unique opportunity to study with members from each of the other health professions programs in a facilitated team setting.

·We also offer early entry into patient care. After 1 month into your first semester, you will be seeing your first patients. You, along with a group of your classmates and faculty, will be providing vision screenings to schools in the community. You will also be assigned to clerkships in local practices to further enhance your clinical training during the first academic year. By the end of your second year you will be performing comprehensive eye examinations under the supervision of our faculty at the on-campus clinic, the Patient Care Center. Students will be able to apply their clinical skills soon after they have learned them in the classroom and lab. We feel that early introduction to patient care enables students to develop strong critical thinking skills so that upon graduation they will be able to deliver full-scope optometric care at the highest level.

·Our College of Optometry will have special emphasis on optometric rehabilitation including neuro-optometry, an emerging specialty that helps patients who have visual and perceptual problems as a result of brain injury, stroke, physical disability or neurological illnesses. It will also include vision therapy, low vision rehabilitation, andcare for vulnerable populations such as those with developmental disabilities. This focus will allow our graduates to be a patient advocate, be comfortable with challenges and be an active problem solver.

Please feel free to ask any other questions that come to mind.

I hope everyone has a wonderful and safe holiday weekend!
 
Has anyone heard from Western yet? I'm getting worried as October draws near...
 
cookiefairy said:
Has anyone heard from Western yet? I'm getting worried as October draws near...
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Not to worry! Since OptomCAS is doing the GPA verification this year, we've gotten a bit slower start but we will soon begin inviting candidates for interview. If you would like to know if we've received everything we need for your application, please feel free to email me at [email protected].

Good luck!
Marie
WesternU Admissions
 
I will warn you I think all the new OD schools are completely unnecessary and extremely damaging to the profession of optometry. We will just say there is a large oversupply.

Anyways, I have some questions I think a perspective student might want to know.

1. How will students be assured that quality externships will be available? Current schools already have a tough time maintaining top quality rotation sites.

2. Though over 90% of 1st and 2nd year students state they want to practice in private practice, the reality is over 50% end up in commercial "jobs." (Per VSP survey) What will Western do to ensure quality career opportunities after graduation?

3. What will the school "give back" to optometry? For example the public university schools produce a lot of prestigious research.

I think you should be honest with OD students about the current health of the profession. California is a good example with poor OD scope of practice and significant exclusion of ODs from medical panels.
 
As far as letters of recs go, if I don't have all 3 by the time I submit my Optomcas application, can I still send one separately at a later time? Thanks!
 
yes. you just need to designate who is going to be writing your letters.
 
I was filling out the supplementary application and for the psychology requirement, I have received AP credit from high school. So I filled out everything in that row, except the Name of institution and the grade, because I did not get a grade for it from my university, I just received credit. Is that okay or should I add anything to my application to explain that?
 
opt912 said:
I was filling out the supplementary application and for the psychology requirement, I have received AP credit from high school. So I filled out everything in that row, except the Name of institution and the grade, because I did not get a grade for it from my university, I just received credit. Is that okay or should I add anything to my application to explain that?
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Unfortunately, we only accept AP credit for English And Calculus. In order for your application to be eligible for processing, you will need to locate a Psychology course (general, intro, human development) that you complete by Spring 2010 and list it as in-progress on the prerequisite worksheet.

Best wishes!
Marie
WesternU
 
IndianaOD said:
I will warn you I think all the new OD schools are completely unnecessary and extremely damaging to the profession of optometry. We will just say there is a large oversupply.
WesternU: We are happy to address your questions/concerns and have provided our responses below.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics projects the employment of optometrists to grow 11 percent between 2006 and 2016. The following are factors for this:
1. Growing aging population with vision care needs
2. Greater recognition of the importance of vision care
3. Growth in the area of pediatric optometry

Also, U.S. News and World Report indicates Optometry as one of the best careers for 2009 (based upon job satisfaction, most prestige, training, and highest pay). The following is a small excerpt of what they say:
...With so many aging boomers in need of vision care, the job prospects are strong. Laser surgery that corrects vision problems has slightly diminished demand for optometrists, but in the future that's likely to be outweighed by demographic trends and other factors. There's also a lot of satisfaction in this career, since most vision problems can be corrected with lenses or relatively minor surgery...
​
Anyways, I have some questions I think a perspective student might want to know.

1. How will students be assured that quality externships will be available? Current schools already have a tough time maintaining top quality rotation sites.
WesternU: Our externship selection is based upon providing clinical training / encounters that reinforce what is taught to our students didactically, so inherently the quality of our programs are at a level that meets/exceeds the appropriate training. We are not aware of schools having difficulty maintaining quality rotation sites. Indian Health Services, Veterans Affairs, Co-management settings, private practice, and community health centers all provide quality experiences that we will have for our students. The assurance of the quality of the externship is the responsibility of the respective school/college and I don’t foresee Western establishing relationships with clinical programs that will not provide the experience that is appropriate for our students.

2. Though over 90% of 1st and 2nd year students state they want to practice in private practice, the reality is over 50% end up in commercial "jobs." (Per VSP survey) What will Western do to ensure quality career opportunities after graduation?
WesternU: Our college administration suggests you would find many optometrists in practice modalities other than private practice that would state that their career is of the highest quality. What we plan to do is to expose our students to a wide variety of practice modalities (private, community clinic, VA, co-management, Indian Health Service. . .etc) so that they can experience first-hand what mode of practice most appeals to them. Most 1st and 2nd years state they want to go into private practice because that is all they know. Our job is to expose them to a wide variety of practice modalities and diverse clinical experiences so that they can make the “best” choice for themselves. There is not a specific practice modality that provides “quality career opportunities”. . . . it is the modality that the individual best fits how they want to practice optometry.


3. What will the school "give back" to optometry? For example the public university schools produce a lot of prestigious research.
WesternU: In the words of WesternU's founding President, Dr. Pumerantz, "Skilled hands and compassionate hearts will continue to be the signature of all our graduates - exactly what is needed in health care today." Our students will “give back” to optometry in the manner in which they will provide care to their patients and due to our emphasis in neuro-optometry, will be able to provide to a population whose needs are just starting to be addressed (patients with traumatic brain injury / stroke, Alzheimer’s, children with autism. . etc). Also, with the resources here at Western University (being a graduate healthcare university) we will be able to conduct research in many different areas that other schools are not able to due to the lack of resources).


I think you should be honest with OD students about the current health of the profession. California is a good example with poor OD scope of practice and significant exclusion of ODs from medical panels.
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Have a great evening everyone!
Marie
WesternU Admissions
 
For those of you who are exhibiting hostility towards the new optometry schools, please be aware that, although the field of optometry does seem fairly saturated at the moment, this should change in the future simply due to demographics. Also, in a capitalist society, new schools have the 'right' to open up if there is a current demand for optometry schools, not simply a current demand for more optometrists. Anyone who wishes to debate this, please do so on another thread.

Although I do personally see the risks entailed in applying to newer programs, I also realize the enormous effort it takes to create one, and I am looking forward to seeing how WesternU, and all the new schools, are viewed in, say, a decade. Thank you Marie for being so accessible to students on this forum; although I personally do not plan on applying to WesternU or any other new schools, I'd still like to ask a couple questions I think others would find useful.

1. What are the qualities you most look for in an applicant to your program? And if you can, please give some insight into how applications are weighed. I ask this considering you are from the admissions office.

2. An optometry schools' clinic is probably the most vital aspect of the school. Can you give any additional information on the clinic, such as equipment, numbers of patients, types of patients // range of conditions seen, etc.?
 
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Arctic said:
For those of you who are exhibiting hostility towards the new optometry schools, please be aware that, although the field of optometry does seem fairly saturated at the moment, this should change in the future simply due to demographics. Also, in a capitalist society, new schools have the 'right' to open up if there is a current demand for optometry schools, not simply a current demand for more optometrists. Anyone who wishes to debate this, please do so on another thread.

Although I do personally see the risks entailed in applying to newer programs, I also realize the enormous effort it takes to create one, and I am looking forward to seeing how WesternU, and all the new schools, are viewed in, say, a decade. Thank you Marie for being so accessible to students on this forum; although I personally do not plan on applying to WesternU or any other new schools, I'd still like to ask a couple questions I think others would find useful.

1. What are the qualities you most look for in an applicant to your program? And if you can, please give some insight into how applications are weighed. I ask this considering you are from the admissions office.

2. An optometry schools' clinic is probably the most vital aspect of the school. Can you give any additional information on the clinic, such as equipment, numbers of patients, types of patients // range of conditions seen, etc.?
Click to expand...

Since you brought it up I will address the issue one final time and let the thread continue without me.

First it is almost comical that a pre-opt would know the real-world marketplace forces currently endured by ODs in the trenches.

The last issue of "Review of Optometry" stated that OD salaries actually dropped last year. Primary care MDs/DOs still had an increase in salary of greater than 4%.

There was a recent study (I don't recall where but not obscure) that showed that current ODs were only operating at 2/3 of their desired patient load. The evidences of oversupply are blinding. ODs on every corner, new grads fighting to get terrible commercial jobs, ODs accepting insultingly low vision plans in order to survive, and terribly low fees for a doctor.

Don't believe me? Call up several ODs and see when the first appointment is. Then contrast this with dentists and a host of other physicians. The baby boomers argument is a joke. These folks are already in the system.

All pre-opts NEED to spend some time on ODwire.org with 10,000 practicing ODs to get some truth.

Good luck to all of you, especially after graduation when you owe Western over 6 figures.
 
Arctic said:
For those of you who are exhibiting hostility towards the new optometry schools, please be aware that, although the field of optometry does seem fairly saturated at the moment, this should change in the future simply due to demographics. Also, in a capitalist society, new schools have the 'right' to open up if there is a current demand for optometry schools, not simply a current demand for more optometrists. Anyone who wishes to debate this, please do so on another thread.

Although I do personally see the risks entailed in applying to newer programs, I also realize the enormous effort it takes to create one, and I am looking forward to seeing how WesternU, and all the new schools, are viewed in, say, a decade. Thank you Marie for being so accessible to students on this forum; although I personally do not plan on applying to WesternU or any other new schools, I'd still like to ask a couple questions I think others would find useful.

1. What are the qualities you most look for in an applicant to your program? And if you can, please give some insight into how applications are weighed. I ask this considering you are from the admissions office.

WesternU: Our Admissions Committee does what is called a "whole file review" meaning they will not make any immediate cut-offs solely for GPAs/OATs and will look at all areas of the application. They will look for evidence of strong academic performance, especially in your science courses, see what kind of courseload you have carried, and what your GPA trends are. They want to make sure you are adequately prepared for our curriculum. It is one thing to say you know you can handle a heavy courseload and another to demonstrate you've actually done it.


They will review your motivation and exposure to the profession. It is important to have spent time with an optometrist (several is even better) so you can learn from them and so they can hopefully share the experience they had with you via a recommendation letter.


There are also your personal attribute to consider ... communication skills, professionalism, what leadership roles have you taken, etc.


And of course, there is the interview. We conduct a behavioral-based interview. If invited to interview, the Committee has already determined that you appear to be academically prepared, so they will spend this time learning more about your personal qualities.


All of the above information is then used to determine whether or not to accept a candidate.

2. An optometry schools' clinic is probably the most vital aspect of the school. Can you give any additional information on the clinic, such as equipment, numbers of patients, types of patients // range of conditions seen, etc.?
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WesternU: Since we are building a new facility, our clinic will be a "state of the art" facility. We intend to have the most up to date technology in all of the exam and pre-testing rooms. Our students will have the opportunity to utilize all of the equipment when they are examining patients in the new clinic. Since we are in an under-served area, we expect to see patients with significant visual and ocular concerns of all ages. We do anticipate seeing patients with ocular conditions related to systemic conditions so co-managing these patients with primary care physicians and other health professionals (podiatrists, dentists, pharmacists. .etc) will occur on a regular basis. It is difficult to predict statistics on the number of patients but we do anticipate that our students will be kept busy providing care to the patients in the community.


Best wishes,
Marie
WesternU Admissions
 
Since you brought this up; I'll say the following. First, you have to realize that people are attacking the existence of the new schools because they feel it will hurt their future profits, period. Is this true? Yes, however, we live in a society where new schools have the right to open up. That is what I said. Is there a current saturation of the field? I most certainly said there was, however, there IS a projected demographic demand for more optometrists in the future, which is WHY the schools are opening. Is this information correct? It may very well not be; however based on that information, true or false, new schools are going to open up. You want to say I'm comical?? Why don't you try reading my bloody post without completely inaccurately paraphrasing me.

IndianaOD said:
Since you brought it up I will address the issue one final time and let the thread continue without me.

First it is almost comical that a pre-opt would know the real-world marketplace forces currently endured by ODs in the trenches.

The last issue of "Review of Optometry" stated that OD salaries actually dropped last year. Primary care MDs/DOs still had an increase in salary of greater than 4%.

There was a recent study (I don't recall where but not obscure) that showed that current ODs were only operating at 2/3 of their desired patient load. The evidences of oversupply are blinding. ODs on every corner, new grads fighting to get terrible commercial jobs, ODs accepting insultingly low vision plans in order to survive, and terribly low fees for a doctor.

Don't believe me? Call up several ODs and see when the first appointment is. Then contrast this with dentists and a host of other physicians. The baby boomers argument is a joke. These folks are already in the system.

All pre-opts NEED to spend some time on ODwire.org with 10,000 practicing ODs to get some truth.

Good luck to all of you, especially after graduation when you owe Western over 6 figures.
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1) In general, a large percentage of graduates of any type of graduate program stay in the area they went to school. Even if the national saturation issue is debatable, does Western honestly believe another optometry school down the road from SCCO won't create extreme saturation issues in the Southern California area? What is the official stance on this topic?

2) Although Western will undoubtedly do everything in its power to get accredited for the first graduating class, there is still a possibility that this will not happen (albeit, a small possibility), correct? So in this worst case scenario, what will happen to those students who would not be eligible to practice? (Will they be refunded tuition? Given back four years?)

3) What research is currently being done by the faculty?
 
Arctic said:
Since you brought this up; I'll say the following. First, you have to realize that people are attacking the existence of the new schools because they feel it will hurt their future profits, period. Is this true? Yes, however, we live in a society where new schools have the right to open up. That is what I said. Is there a current saturation of the field? I most certainly said there was, however, there IS a projected demographic demand for more optometrists in the future, which is WHY the schools are opening. Is this information correct? It may very well not be; however based on that information, true or false, new schools are going to open up. You want to say I'm comical?? Why don't you try reading my bloody post without completely inaccurately paraphrasing me.
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I have to disagree with the bolded statement. There should be some sort of weeding out process for any healthcare profession. The issue I have with three new schools opening up is that increasing the amount of available seats without increasing the amount of candidates will lead to people who WOULDN'T have been admitted before, who are now entering schools.

Okay, so what is the problem with "giving them another chance"? Well, what it comes down to is that the schools ultimately select students who they believe will be able to pass the boards, given a proper education without special attention. Realistically most students who were accepted to established schools probably wouldn't take such a huge risk on their education/future unless it was a necessity of location. Therefore, with these new schools having much lower standards about who they accept, they will undoubtedly accept students who they DON'T truly believe will be able to pass the boards because they'll need the tuition and any warm body will do. After all, professors need to get paid and clinics need to be built.

Is that really fair to those students who get in way over their heads? No. Is that really fair to their future patients (assuming they get through)? No. Would you really trust your vision, or your family's vision to someone who probably shouldn't have been a doctor to begin with and just squeaked by? Doubt it.
 
Fair enough blyssful, it isn't the only reason. However, I have already heard from enough people for me to say it is one of the primary reasons. And I really don't want to get into a giant debate defending new schools; this was never my intention (I'm not even applying to one!) but I am getting tired of so many of the rather nasty attacks on them that I've been hearing. I like your posts though blyssful; this last bit isn't directed at you.
 
blysssful said:
I have to disagree with the bolded statement. There should be some sort of weeding out process for any healthcare profession. The issue I have with three new schools opening up is that increasing the amount of available seats without increasing the amount of candidates will lead to people who WOULDN'T have been admitted before, who are now entering schools.

Okay, so what is the problem with "giving them another chance"? Well, what it comes down to is that the schools ultimately select students who they believe will be able to pass the boards, given a proper education without special attention. Realistically most students who were accepted to established schools probably wouldn't take such a huge risk on their education/future unless it was a necessity of location. Therefore, with these new schools having much lower standards about who they accept, they will undoubtedly accept students who they DON'T truly believe will be able to pass the boards because they'll need the tuition and any warm body will do. After all, professors need to get paid and clinics need to be built.

Is that really fair to those students who get in way over their heads? No. Is that really fair to their future patients (assuming they get through)? No. Would you really trust your vision, or your family's vision to someone who probably shouldn't have been a doctor to begin with and just squeaked by? Doubt it.
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Well stated. Obviously I don't think a school in California will put extreme negative pressure on my private practice in Indiana. There is just no foreseeable positive influence to these schools.

I've seen some entering GPAs from these new schools and personally they are unacceptable.

The reason why these new schools are opening up is money! It is definitely not that there is a need. They want to collect your tuition and take it to the bank. They see enough applicants are getting turned down from the established schools to make a profit. Especially these private schools. They think. Hey we can throw the OD students into most of our already established medical classes and rake in the cash.
 
IndianaOD said:
Well stated. Obviously I don't think a school in California will put extreme negative pressure on my private practice in Indiana. There is just no foreseeable positive influence to these schools.

I've seen some entering GPAs from these new schools and personally they are unacceptable.

The reason why these new schools are opening up is money! It is definitely not that there is a need. They want to collect your tuition and take it to the bank. They see enough applicants are getting turned down from the established schools to make a profit. Especially these private schools. They think. Hey we can throw the OD students into most of our already established medical classes and rake in the cash.
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I'll post Western U's average statistics for their entering class:

OAT AA 330
OAT TS 342
Average GPA 3.11

The average gpa is definitely low, however it is very comparable to the average gpa of many optometry schools about a decade ago, very interesting link: http://facweb.furman.edu/~lthompson/premed/schools/optometry.htm
So optometry schools are getting more competetive; these lower applicants may very well be as qualified as most current optometrists were when they entered school! DON'T get into a statistical argument with me unless you want a really enjoyable fight. Besides, the U.S. population is substantially higher than it was when Nova opened up; it makes sense that either new schools will eventually need to open or existing programs have to expand. And about the OAT scores; they really aren't low at all, even considering that was with the old scale.

Are those statistics really unacceptabley low, IndianaOD?? I'm sorry but you've forced my hand; I pretty much have to call you out on this. To say the new schools won't be a positive influence pretty much assumes that over the next few decades, we won't be needing more optometrists. I think you fail to realize just how long it will take for just three new schools to have a significant impact on the total number of optometrists. It will take well over a decade!
 
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Arctic said:
I'll post Western U's average statistics for their entering class:

OAT AA 330
OAT TS 342
Average GPA 3.11

The average gpa is definitely low, however it is very comparable to the average gpa of many optometry schools about a decade ago, very interesting link: http://facweb.furman.edu/~lthompson/premed/schools/optometry.htm
So optometry schools are getting more competetive; these lower applicants may very well be as qualified as most current optometrists were when they entered school! DON'T get into a statistical argument with me unless you want a really enjoyable fight. Besides, the U.S. population is substantially higher than it was when Nova opened up; it makes sense that either new schools will eventually need to open or existing programs have to expand. And about the OAT scores; they really aren't low at all, even considering that was with the old scale.

Are those statistics really unacceptabley low, IndianaOD?? I'm sorry but you've forced my hand; I pretty much have to call you out on this. To say the new schools won't be a positive influence pretty much assumes that over the next few decades, we won't be needing more optometrists. I think you fail to realize just how long it will take for just three new schools to have a significant impact on the total number of optometrists. It will take well over a decade!
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Yes, those stats are too low. There is far more grade stuffing in undergrad as well making it not comparable to 10 years ago. Sorry, but I want competent colleagues because they reflect on me. Its clear they are lowering the standards. GPA does matter because its all we really have.
 
So long as you have to resort to a completely baseless, indefensible excuse for an argument, why post on these forums? Give one shred of evidence to back up what you just said; oh wait, there isn't any.
 
Arctic said:
So long as you have to resort to a completely baseless, indefensible excuse for an argument, why post on these forums? Give one shred of evidence to back up what you just said; oh wait, there isn't any.
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What evidence do you want? You want some real world evidence join ODwire and do some searches on oversupply and the other issues. Some doctors on there actually helped convince North Carolina that a new school was not needed a couple years ago. The AOA badly needs a new manpower survey, even though their last one around 8 years ago predicted an oversupply without the new schools. There is a reason dentists make twice as much but endure the same level of education. They actually closed some schools awhile back.
 
At IndianaOD and blyssful: The two arguments that come up again and again against these schools are, the first being that the field is currently saturated, hence doesn't need more optometrists. I already agree that the field is currently saturated, and I honestly don't know where it will be ten years from now, so I'm not going to try and debate that point. However, the second argument, that the new schools will pump out low-quality optometrists (the point made by blyssful and IndianaOD) is quite a serious accusation to be levying. In post #21 on this thread, I respectfully call into question the entire validity this argument.

At IndianaOD: In your rather, what was the word you had used, ah yes, comical! In your rather comical reply, you make a fully unsubstantiated claim that this can somehow be explained by "grade stuffing." You further say that GPA is "all we really have" to go on. I think this is quite an absurd argument to make; however even so, the most objective way to rate academic ability has been, and currently remains, standardized tests. We wouldn't happen to have one of those for optometry, would we? Oh wait, we have the OAT! Why have OAT scores been significantly climbing over the past decade? Because optometry school is getting more competetive. Medical schools are also getting more competetive; I recently saw a statistic that med. school applicant pools were growing by 11% annually, if I remember correctly. It should be fairly obvious to someone objectively reading this thread that the current WesternU class, based on BOTH average gpa and OAT scores is quite comparable to many of the optometry schools as recently as a decade ago. Good luck IndianaOD trying to counter the OAT side of that comparison; I look forward to another comical reply ;)

At blysssful: Again, be aware of what a serious claim it is to make that a school such as WesternU will be pumping out grads unqualified to be optometrists. I simply cannot see the evidence to support such an extreme claim at this time; we will all see once WesternU students start taking their first Boards in a few years. I fully agree with you that it is quite a risk for a student to attend a currently pre-accredited program for a number of reasons, but that's as far as I'd take it.
 
Arctic said:
At IndianaOD and blyssful: The two arguments that come up again and again against these schools are, the first being that the field is currently saturated, hence doesn't need more optometrists. I already agree that the field is currently saturated, and I honestly don't know where it will be ten years from now, so I'm not going to try and debate that point. However, the second argument, that the new schools will pump out low-quality optometrists (the point made by blyssful and IndianaOD) is quite a serious accusation to be levying. In post #21 on this thread, I respectfully call into question the entire validity this argument.

At IndianaOD: In your rather, what was the word you had used, ah yes, comical! In your rather comical reply, you make a fully unsubstantiated claim that this can somehow be explained by "grade stuffing." You further say that GPA is "all we really have" to go on. I think this is quite an absurd argument to make; however even so, the most objective way to rate academic ability has been, and currently remains, standardized tests. We wouldn't happen to have one of those for optometry, would we? Oh wait, we have the OAT! Why have OAT scores been significantly climbing over the past decade? Because optometry school is getting more competetive. Medical schools are also getting more competetive; I recently saw a statistic that med. school applicant pools were growing by 11% annually, if I remember correctly. It should be fairly obvious to someone objectively reading this thread that the current WesternU class, based on BOTH average gpa and OAT scores is quite comparable to many of the optometry schools as recently as a decade ago. Good luck IndianaOD trying to counter the OAT side of that comparison; I look forward to another comical reply ;)

At blysssful: Again, be aware of what a serious claim it is to make that a school such as WesternU will be pumping out grads unqualified to be optometrists. I simply cannot see the evidence to support such an extreme claim at this time; we will all see once WesternU students start taking their first Boards in a few years. I fully agree with you that it is quite a risk for a student to attend a currently pre-accredited program for a number of reasons, but that's as far as I'd take it.
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Don't worry, they dumbed-down NBEO part one for you a year or two ago! It used to be a tough basic science based exam with a significant no pass rate. They changed it significantly for the easier I heard.

FYI: I performed several admissions interviews while on staff at IU.
 
Nice job confusing the NBEO with the OAT :laugh:

You honestly seem like a conspiracy nut; you constantly ignore evidence, and you've YET to even address my point.


Edit: Due to JMU07 I am clarifying this post; IndianaOD tried to justify the increase in OAT scores by stating the NBEO has been made easier. I am aware it has been changed, but I completely fail to see the connection between the NBEO (taken by optometry grads) and the OAT (taken by undergrads), hence why I think his reply was ludicrous and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
 
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Arctic said:
At IndianaOD and blyssful: The two arguments that come up again and again against these schools are, the first being that the field is currently saturated, hence doesn't need more optometrists. I already agree that the field is currently saturated, and I honestly don't know where it will be ten years from now, so I'm not going to try and debate that point. However, the second argument, that the new schools will pump out low-quality optometrists (the point made by blyssful and IndianaOD) is quite a serious accusation to be levying. In post #21 on this thread, I respectfully call into question the entire validity this argument.

At IndianaOD: In your rather, what was the word you had used, ah yes, comical! In your rather comical reply, you make a fully unsubstantiated claim that this can somehow be explained by "grade stuffing." You further say that GPA is "all we really have" to go on. I think this is quite an absurd argument to make; however even so, the most objective way to rate academic ability has been, and currently remains, standardized tests. We wouldn't happen to have one of those for optometry, would we? Oh wait, we have the OAT! Why have OAT scores been significantly climbing over the past decade? Because optometry school is getting more competetive. Medical schools are also getting more competetive; I recently saw a statistic that med. school applicant pools were growing by 11% annually, if I remember correctly. It should be fairly obvious to someone objectively reading this thread that the current WesternU class, based on BOTH average gpa and OAT scores is quite comparable to many of the optometry schools as recently as a decade ago. Good luck IndianaOD trying to counter the OAT side of that comparison; I look forward to another comical reply ;)

At blysssful: Again, be aware of what a serious claim it is to make that a school such as WesternU will be pumping out grads unqualified to be optometrists. I simply cannot see the evidence to support such an extreme claim at this time; we will all see once WesternU students start taking their first Boards in a few years. I fully agree with you that it is quite a risk for a student to attend a currently pre-accredited program for a number of reasons, but that's as far as I'd take it.
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I stated that my main issue with the new schools is that letting in people who should not have been accepted is hazardous to that student and to the overall profession. I don't see how a logical person could dispute this point.

You gave Western's entering averages. I have no issue admitting that the OAT score averages aren't nearly as low as I thought they'd be... HOWEVER, I'm WAY more interested in seeing the actual distribution of GPAs and OAT scores. I know several first year students at Western who were accepted elsewhere and had remarkable scores and GPAs, but who unfortunately chose Western because of proximity to family. Averages don't mean very much. And in NO WAY was my statement claiming that every student who goes to any of these new schools is inept. My whole issue is with the BOTTOM students. The ones that are bringing the averages down. The ones that were accepted with a sub 3.0 GPA. The ones who will inevitably slow the entire class down, or be forced to drop out.


Arctic said:
Nice job confusing the NBEO with the OAT :laugh:

You honestly seem like a conspiracy nut; you constantly ignore evidence, and you've YET to even address my point.
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Indiana was referring to the NBEO being the standardized reference point to compare students from the various schools. OAT scores are pretty much irrelevant if you want to compare how the actual optometry schools are doing.
 
Thank you blyssful for giving a constructive reply. I wish I could give information on scoring distributions; however those just aren't available for me to make any comparisons. The fact the OAT scores were much higher than you initially thought is quite interesting (by the way the link I provided also shows the lowest gpa accepted to the schools, QUITE low if you ask me for most of them). I don't think OAT scores are at all irrelevant since most of this is about rating incoming students. And the NBEO being 'dumbed down' argument has nothing whatsoever to do with my evidence that optometry admissions is getting more competetive; hence why I laugh at IndianaOD's pathetic excuse for a reply. However, I fully agree that the NBEO is the way to compare graduates of the schools; but again, I'm not trying to do that simply because there is absolutely no data on that at present. I'm really tired of this; I've made my point that there is no reason, right now, for me to believe the new schools are going to produce inferior optometrists. We will all have to wait and see once their NBEO stats are published in the near future.
 
Arctic said:
Thank you blyssful for giving a constructive reply. I wish I could give information on scoring distributions; however those just aren't available for me to make any comparisons. The fact the OAT scores were much higher than you initially thought is quite interesting (by the way the link I provided also shows the lowest gpa accepted to the schools, QUITE low if you ask me for most of them). I don't think OAT scores are at all irrelevant since most of this is about rating incoming students. And the NBEO being 'dumbed down' argument has nothing whatsoever to do with my evidence that optometry admissions is getting more competetive; hence why I laugh at IndianaOD's pathetic excuse for a reply. However, I fully agree that the NBEO is the way to compare graduates of the schools; but again, I'm not trying to do that simply because there is absolutely no data on that at present. I'm really tired of this; I've made my point that there is no reason, right now, for me to believe the new schools are going to produce inferior optometrists. We will all have to wait and see once their NBEO stats are published in the near future.
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Optometry is a small world. Let me know what you think after you are actually an OD. Good luck with the school propaganda. Wally and Luxottica will be happier with every new school.
 
I'm strongly backing up my points with hard evidence. I would hardly call that propaganda, sir.
 
Arctic said:
Nice job confusing the NBEO with the OAT :laugh:

You honestly seem like a conspiracy nut; you constantly ignore evidence, and you've YET to even address my point.
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Um... no. They DID just change Part I of boards. Please do research before assuming other people are idiots.

edit: Sorry, I just realized someone else already addressed this.
 
Why don't you try reading what HE was responding to first; he was responding to the increase in OAT scores with an argument about the NBEO getting easier; I had never brought up ANYTHING about the NBEO before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Also, I have been offering quite a bit of information on this thread, something you most definitely have failed to do JMU07, so DON'T accuse ME of not doing research. So before making another misinformed post; why not try reading the whole thread? Sheesh, is this entire thread going to turn into a flame war or something? It's pretty close, and I'm not pleased by that.
 
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Arctic said:
Why don't you try reading what HE was responding to first; he was responding to the increase in OAT scores with an argument about the NBEO getting easier; I had never brought up ANYTHING about the NBEO before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Also, I have been offering quite a bit of information on this thread, something you most definitely have failed to do JMU07, so DON'T accuse ME of not doing research. So before making another misinformed post; why not try reading the whole thread? Sheesh, is this entire thread going to turn into a flame war or something? It's pretty close, and I'm not pleased by that.
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Yeah, it is close. The fact that you're PRE optometry and you're trying to argue with a PRACTICING optometrist isn't really helping. Fine, you were talking about the OAT and he happened to bring up boards. But you clamed that he confused the two tests and he didn't. That's all I'm saying.

Also, he said good luck with the propaganda schools will be feeding you. So why did you go ahead and assume he was somehow saying that you're spewing propaganda as well?

This thread is over and it needs to be closed.

Anyone else reminded of gochi?
 
I agree; this thread should be closed. I'll say it one last time: I've stated my case in defense of the new schools. The fact I'm using data to make my claims is, I believe, the proper way of doing things; those who choose to differ from my conclusions, fine. I'm not even going to reply to anything else for the purposes of shutting this discussion down; back and forth arguments over meanings/intentions of sentences will not get us anywhere, so I'll gladly accept that he may have been talking about propaganda from schools.
 
In the report, the deans stated three chief concerns:
• Is another optometry school needed? In May 2000, an AOA-commissioned study, “Workforce Projections for Optometry,” predicted an oversupply of O.D.s through 2020. That’s a concern shared by the university’s Graduate Council. The council, citing the projected oversupply of O.D.s, already rejected the proposal for a new optometry school and asked instead for the feasibility study.
Optometrists opposed to the school echo this concern. A petition on the Seniordoc.org Web site that calls for the university not to proceed with the proposed school states that optometrists did not ask for a new school and that a new school would add to the projected overabundance of eye doctors, leading to decreased incomes and lower quality of life for existing practitioners.
 
I actually appreciate that report, IndianaOD. I haven't been arguing too much the oversupply issue of optometrists on this thread because, frankly I don't know much about it. I have been shown reports by one school (they may very well be inaccurate) that there will be a projected demand for more optometrists; however that study is quite interesting and basically contradicts those reports.

My main problem has been with the academic attacks on the schools; I've put forth my defense, and anyone who chooses to differ with my conclusions, ok. I hope this is the end of this.
 
Who is moderating these forums? This is absolutely ridiculous.

Marie, thanks for offering to answer questions about the program, but as you can tell everyone here prefers to take the chance to fling feces at each other instead of going to the proper forum for civil and meaningful debate.
 
Arctic said:
Since you brought this up; I'll say the following. First, you have to realize that people are attacking the existence of the new schools because they feel it will hurt their future profits, period. Is this true? Yes, however, we live in a society where new schools have the right to open up. That is what I said. Is there a current saturation of the field? I most certainly said there was, however, there IS a projected demographic demand for more optometrists in the future, which is WHY the schools are opening. Is this information correct? It may very well not be; however based on that information, true or false, new schools are going to open up. You want to say I'm comical?? Why don't you try reading my bloody post without completely inaccurately paraphrasing me.
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The AOA's own manpower study projected an OVERsupply of ODs until the year 2032.

The notion that "chaning demographics" will have any impact on optometry is a virtual non starter. The "baby boomers" may well be nearing retirement age but guess what? They have been presbyopes for 25 yrs. As such, they're already "in the system" and have been for years.

Also, baby boomers may well develop cataracts, ARMD, et al but guess what? ODs do NOT MANAGE THOSE CONDITIONS. Yes, we may get a few visits here and there to "monitor" them but other than glaucoma, there is relatively little need for significant optometric intervention in a geriatric population.

You want proof of oversupply?

Here's a little non-scientific experiment you can try.

I defy any person to find any single part of the country where you can not get an non-emergent optometric exam within 2 days and within an hours drive.

Contrast that with a non emergent ophthalmology (or any other health care provider) and you'll find waiting times streching out into weeks.

If that doesn't say oversupply, I don't know what does.
 
KHE said:
The AOA's own manpower study projected an OVERsupply of ODs until the year 2032.

The notion that "chaning demographics" will have any impact on optometry is a virtual non starter. The "baby boomers" may well be nearing retirement age but guess what? They have been presbyopes for 25 yrs. As such, they're already "in the system" and have been for years.

Also, baby boomers may well develop cataracts, ARMD, et al but guess what? ODs do NOT MANAGE THOSE CONDITIONS. Yes, we may get a few visits here and there to "monitor" them but other than glaucoma, there is relatively little need for significant optometric intervention in a geriatric population.

You want proof of oversupply?

Here's a little non-scientific experiment you can try.

I defy any person to find any single part of the country where you can not get an non-emergent optometric exam within 2 days and within an hours drive.

Contrast that with a non emergent ophthalmology (or any other health care provider) and you'll find waiting times streching out into weeks.

If that doesn't say oversupply, I don't know what does.
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I read this article addressing the oversupply of optometrists. As an OD, do you support board certification and will this help secure the optometric profession? I know this is out of topic but it made me curious since this thread seems to argue that additional optometry schools are unnecessary due to saturation of the profession.

Health Care Reform, Board Certification, and Optometry’s Next Step to Protect Our Future: Part One in a Series of Policy Briefings for AOA Members by Mohammad Akhter, M.D., M.P.A. Executive Director, National Medical Association
 
OD4eyes said:
I read this article addressing the oversupply of optometrists. As an OD, do you support board certification and will this help secure the optometric profession? I know this is out of topic but it made me curious since this thread seems to argue that additional optometry schools are unnecessary due to saturation of the profession.

Health Care Reform, Board Certification, and Optometry’s Next Step to Protect Our Future: Part One in a Series of Policy Briefings for AOA Members by Mohammad Akhter, M.D., M.P.A. Executive Director, National Medical Association
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I have never heard of the National Medical Association nor Mohammad Akhter. I did a quick search on the NMA and read a bit about them.

I am mostly ambivanlent about board certification. Initially I supported it because I viewed it as the "percentage play" for optometry to make given much of the rhetoric comming out of Washington. It was presented to us as "the price of admission" for "getting a seat at the table." (The table being the table where health care reform, whatever that is, would be hashed out.)

Now it turns out that even though the AOA passed board certification, we still don't have a seat at that table.

As far as "securing the profession" I have no idea what that means but I do not foresee that doing it will secure the profession in any meaningful way.

I will also say that in my nearly 10 years of practice I have never EVER even ONCE had a patient ask me if I was board certified.
 
Hey, WesternU Adm (Marie), you might want to start a new thread — :hijacked:.
 
blysssful said:
1) In general, a large percentage of graduates of any type of graduate program stay in the area they went to school. Even if the national saturation issue is debatable, does Western honestly believe another optometry school down the road from SCCO won't create extreme saturation issues in the Southern California area? What is the official stance on this topic?

2) Although Western will undoubtedly do everything in its power to get accredited for the first graduating class, there is still a possibility that this will not happen (albeit, a small possibility), correct? So in this worst case scenario, what will happen to those students who would not be eligible to practice? (Will they be refunded tuition? Given back four years?)

3) What research is currently being done by the faculty?
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These questions seem to have been skipped...
 
KHE said:
I will also say that in my nearly 10 years of practice I have never EVER even ONCE had a patient ask me if I was board certified.
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Will insurance companies be able to specify only BC ODs on their plans?

jymezg said:
These questions seem to have been skipped...
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I noticed that too...
 
IndianaOD said:
Yes, those stats are too low. There is far more grade stuffing in undergrad as well making it not comparable to 10 years ago. Sorry, but I want competent colleagues because they reflect on me. Its clear they are lowering the standards. GPA does matter because its all we really have.
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Those stats aren't nearly as low as I would have imagined they would be. The big reason I bet is that there are literally A TON of well qualified students from California that move cross country to enter optometry schools in other states every year. At ICO the larges represented state was Illinois, second with California, we had about 20 from California in my class!
 
Originally Posted by blysssful
1) In general, a large percentage of graduates of any type of graduate program stay in the area they went to school. Even if the national saturation issue is debatable, does Western honestly believe another optometry school down the road from SCCO won't create extreme saturation issues in the Southern California area? What is the official stance on this topic?

2) Although Western will undoubtedly do everything in its power to get accredited for the first graduating class, there is still a possibility that this will not happen (albeit, a small possibility), correct? So in this worst case scenario, what will happen to those students who would not be eligible to practice? (Will they be refunded tuition? Given back four years?)

3) What research is currently being done by the faculty?

jymezg said:
These questions seem to have been
skipped...
Click to expand...

Questions still haven't been answered....
 
jymezg said:
Originally Posted by blysssful
2) Although Western will undoubtedly do everything in its power to get accredited for the first graduating class, there is still a possibility that this will not happen (albeit, a small possibility), correct? So in this worst case scenario, what will happen to those students who would not be eligible to practice? (Will they be refunded tuition? Given back four years?)

Questions still haven't been answered....
Click to expand...

*crickets chirp*
 
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