Why do WHITES complain about AA???

......yup, there's gotta be at least 5 AA threads going at the same time

Originally posted by Amit1
You never see Asians posting complaining about the unfair advantage whites have.

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'never'?....ummmm...and are you Asian...? sorry couldn't resist...normally I ignore AA threads....

Cant we just all get along??????????????????

Originally posted by Amit1
You never see Asians posting complaining about the unfair advantage whites have.

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how do you know asians aren't posting complaining about AA?? i have no clue what most people's race/ethnicity is on this website.

i don't complain about AA, just AA threads, i hate them

Originally posted by Amit1
Because its always "whites are at a disadvantage" or "blacks have an advantage over whites".

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ha ha. maybe you're right. i don't know. i try to avoid reading those damn aa threads .

i think that we have plenty of AA threads going without having to start a new one. the reason is that I seriously doubt that any new pearls of wisdom will result from this thread....

-curlyq

Originally posted by the boy wonder
'never'?....ummmm...and are you Asian...? sorry couldn't resist...normally I ignore AA threads....

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classic, boy wonder

he's indian.. but you could also consider him asian, coz india's in asia and all

Originally posted by DW
......yup, there's gotta be at least 5 AA threads going at the same time

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kill me now...

Why do whites (& many others) complain about AA?

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I think the answer to this question was best stated by ready in the "Black Excel Tips" thread:

We must understand that these arguments about the MCAT and A.A. are arguments about the symptoms of a problem, not the actual problem. In order to fix these symptoms we must fix the actual problem. This problem will not be solved by arguing on a message board or classify each other as "us" and "them." It can only be solved with individual action and time.

You people always complain about affirmative action & who is benefitting from it without addressing what your forefathers did to these people who are supposedly taking undeserved places in entering classes. Let's not talk about only 4% of black students in California being qualified to attend California universities. Nor about how predominantly Mexican neighborhoods have poorer schools with less resources than their white counterparts. By the time we arrive at the medical school level, we are talking about less than 2% of all students in medical school being black or Mexican. So for a group of people to be benefitting so much from this flawed policy is a lie that has been propagated by uninformed people who have not been taught to achieve based on their own merit--you think you deserve it more than someone else simply because of that person's color.

Originally posted by Amit1
Who said I was Indian???

You racists, jumping to conclusions about my name

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And here I was, thinking you were Israeli...

pakistani, lebanese?

I'm sorry, but I think Alcoholics Anonymous is one of the best programs in the history of drinking. It has been proven to be more effective than any medication we can give for alcoholism and has done countless good across the country. I don't care if you are white, black, asian, southwestern samoan, we all need to support alcoholics anonymous. These people are just trying to have a meaningfull part in society. Have a heart people.

You people always complain about affirmative action & who is benefitting from it without addressing what your forefathers did to these people who are supposedly taking undeserved places in entering classes. Let's not talk about only 4% of black students in California being qualified to attend California universities. Nor about how predominantly Mexican neighborhoods have poorer schools with less resources than their white counterparts. By the time we arrive at the medical school level, we are talking about less than 2% of all students in medical school being black or Mexican. So for a group of people to be benefitting so much from this flawed policy is a lie that has been propagated by uninformed people who have not been taught to achieve based on their own merit--you think you deserve it more than someone else simply because of that person's color.

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So lets fix the problem at these schools and stop throwing these unprepared students to the wolves in competitive schools only to have them fail and lose their self-esteem. Affirmative Action doesn't hurt whites, it hurts blacks. Affirmative action at its best would be based on economic status and life experiences not race. Being black or Mexican does not make you oppressed or disadvantaged. Having to deal with hardships in life does.

If a black or white kid from the South Bronx has a 3.4 GPA and a 30 MCAT I have no problem with them getting accepted at Yale over a black or white kid from Malibu with a 3.8 GPA and a 36 MCAT. The kid from the South Bronx most probably attended a TERRIBLE high school and had to deal with violence and poverty where as the kid from Malibu didn't. It doesn't matter whether the kids from Malibu were blacks, Mexicans, Icelanders, Nordics or whateva. Ofcourse most blacks are against this type of AA because it will work against the black middle and upper classes.

What they don't realize is that AA in its current form makes worse the problem it seeks to solve. It leads to more blacks failing in competitive schools thus further perpetuating the stereotype that blacks are stupid. It also breeds more racism and resentment from not only whites but Asians, Arabs and others. The goal of AA is admirable, but the means is not efficacious and is actually inimical to the end intended. I hope supporters of AA think about that.

...why is it that black guys are always assumed to have large penises...you always hear a white guy saying, "He (a black man) must be hung like a horse!" or "Here comes Tyrone 'Three Legs' Johnson."...etc, etc... don't you think black men are tired of hearing this?


Oh wait...probably not.

Originally posted by Jalby
I'm sorry, but I think Alcoholics Anonymous is one of the best programs in the history of drinking. It has been proven to be more effective than any medication we can give for alcoholism and has done countless good across the country. I don't care if you are white, black, asian, southwestern samoan, we all need to support alcoholics anonymous. These people are just trying to have a meaningfull part in society. Have a heart people.

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i hope it works out for larry eutaschy

If certian groups or segments of the population are failing to meet criteria to obtain acceptances, then it is that group's mandate to investigate the problem. Don't immediatly cry "white devil, white devil", it's a cop out. Maybe the problem itself is with AA, it breeds an attitude of comtempt. Why work hard to meet the specified requirements, if I can play the race card and get in because I'm black? Where is the incentive? Where is the sense of pride?

My wife (who is white) went to a predominately black highschool in the city (something like 80% black, 20% white). She didn't have the advantages the "rich white kids" have, she was dirt **** poor growing up and will soon be starting law school. She had to work hard to get to where she is in life, there is no box to check for dirt **** poor white kids, she didn't have the AA advantage on her side, and she great with her "sh*tty" city education (she graduated Magna Cum Ladue). It is not the color of the skin that determines your fate, but the resolve of your drive. So for all of you bleeding hearts out there what do you have to say about that???

People should be accepted solely based on their abilities and on their "personality" and how they have demonstrated this. People should not be accepted based on race. End of story.

I would rather have a doctor operating on me who got into and through med school because of his abilties than one who got into med school because of his/her race.

There are white people that come from disadvantage backgrounds, but you don't see any of the AA schools like Michigan accepting these types of people.

It may not be fair that some people come from worse backgrounds and have a harder time getting into med school, but you cannot generalize and accept so many of these people. The best guy should get the spot. There is no sense in this reverse discrimination; denying better qualified people spots and giving that spot to someone less qualified.

Originally posted by tms
...why is it that black guys are always assumed to have large penises...you always hear a white guy saying, "He (a black man) must be hung like a horse!" or "Here comes Tyrone 'Three Legs' Johnson."...etc, etc... don't you think black men are tired of hearing this?


Oh wait...probably not.

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As a white man who dates black women, I frequently wake up having nightmares about this subject. You are right, we need to stop all this talk about differences between races. We are all the same.

Having seen affirmative action at work in college admissions, med school admissions and residency admissions, I have this to say about the whole thing:

I used to think that AA hurt only whites and asians (who are both clearly more qualified as a group than minorities in terms of scores and grades). Now, I truly believe that AA hurts minorities much more.

I say this because after sharing classes and interacting with minority students on the wards, I can safely say that I will NEVER go to a minority doctor by my own accord. I guess, God-forbid I am in an accident where I can't choose my doctor, I may be forced to have a minority doctor take care of me. But if I am ever given the choice, I will never go to a minority doctor. I attend what one might call one the top med schools in the country, a school that basically has its pick of minority applicants. Even these creme de la creme minorities are bottom of the class.

To put it simply, I have seen the best minority minds in medicine and to be blunt, I am scared. I am scared for their future patients.

As a result of AA, people have I believe rightfully so, gotten it into their mind that one should never go to a minority doctor. As a result, the few truly good minority doctors are screwed b/c everyone assumes they only got through b/c of AA.

Almost, Md:

You statements, above, are clearly a hasty geneneralization from a few experiences that you have had...thoughts such as yours do nothing to solve any of these problems, not to mention the fact that you are completely wrong...in fact your statements are racist...

...akshar

Originally posted by almostMD

I used to think that AA hurt only whites and asians (who are both clearly more qualified as a group than minorities in terms of scores and grades). Now, I truly believe that AA hurts minorities much more.

I say this because after sharing classes and interacting with minority students on the wards, I can safely say that I will NEVER go to a minority doctor by my own accord. I guess, God-forbid I am in an accident where I can't choose my doctor, I may be forced to have a minority doctor take care of me. But if I am ever given the choice, I will never go to a minority doctor. I attend what one might call one the top med schools in the country, a school that basically has its pick of minority applicants. Even these creme de la creme minorities are bottom of the class.

To put it simply, I have seen the best minority minds in medicine and to be blunt, I am scared. I am scared for their future patients.

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Damn. I guess it's easy to throw racist insults when you're anonymous!

Racist? Please! I am merely recording my observations. I dare say I am not the only one who thinks that minority med students aren't as bright as their white and asian peers.

the problem is that people do not want to accept the fact that not everyone can be the best and that people are stratified in every aspect of life. In terms of intellectual things, minorities are in a lower tier than whites and asians in general.

If I were to state that whites as a group are not as good as blacks in the 100 yeard dash, would I be considered racist? Take a look at our olympic team and tell me that blacks aren't superior short distance runners.

Just some thoughts.

I would rather have a doctor operating on me who got into and through med school because of his abilties than one who got into med school because of his/her race.

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All of a sudden, the application process has been simplified to race? You're making it seem like URMs only have to check one box to guarantee admission.

Besides, odds are if a minority (or any) doctor can't cut it in med school, s/he most likely will not make it as far as the operating room. There are multiple hurdles between getting that acceptance letter and practicing medicine, for all future doctors.

It may not be fair that some people come from worse backgrounds and have a harder time getting into med school, but you cannot generalize and accept so many of these people. The best guy should get the spot. There is no sense in this reverse discrimination; denying better qualified people spots and giving that spot to someone less qualified.

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Not going into the "so many..."

The problem with med school admissions is that there is no forumla for the perfect doctor. There is no scale that can determine which candidates have the potential of becoming a good doctor. I don't believe that all people should be held up to some non-existant standard. Using terms like "more qualified" and "less qualified" is subjective, but implies that both groups are qualified. Its ultimately up to the admissions committees to determine what students they would like to represent their school. I doubt that any med school would willingly admit someone to their school knowing that they had no chance succeeding in their school. I have yet to see an example of a student being admitted based soley on race, without some qualifications.

The bottom line is that none of us is entitled to anything. Med school admissions is as much a gamble for URMs as it is for non-URMS. Every qualified applicant cannot gain admission to med school on the first or second (or even 17th) try. There aren't enough spots in the world. Thats a inarguable fact. Thats something that all applicants have to be aware of. Blaming your own "failures" on anything but fate or yourself is a waste. Crying "reverse discrimination" isn't going to get anyone into med school. Continuing to work your arse off and reapplying might.

Originally posted by Amit1
I usually don't post on AA threads, but I saw all the others and jumped on the bandwagon. Although this isn't a thread complaining about AA, its is a thread complaining about people who complain about AA.

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Do you think we can start a thread about whites who complain about blacks and asians and the dogs and cats that support them in their endeavors. It has about as much bearing on anyone's life as the 5000 AA threads that are posted daily. I think it is good that SDN gives us all a place to voice our opinion but how about we voice our opinion once and the LET IT GO!!!!! We hear the same argument for both sides at least twice daily. For the love of God (whatever God you may choose, dont want to start a thread about that too ) can we just get off it already.

I still love you all though and you are a constant source of entertainment for me.

>>Racist? Please! I am merely recording my observations. I dare say I am not the only one who thinks that minority med students aren't as bright as their white and asian peers.<<

Do you think it is due to genetic o social factors?

<b>quote:macdown

If certian groups or segments of the population are failing to meet criteria to obtain acceptances, then it is that group's mandate to investigate the problem. Don't immediatly cry "white devil, white devil", it's a cop out. Maybe the problem itself is with AA, it breeds an attitude of comtempt. Why work hard to meet the specified requirements, if I can play the race card and get in because I'm black? Where is the incentive? Where is the sense of pride?

My wife (who is white) went to a predominately black highschool in the city (something like 80% black, 20% white). She didn't have the advantages the "rich white kids" have, she was dirt **** poor growing up and will soon be starting law school. She had to work hard to get to where she is in life, there is no box to check for dirt **** poor white kids, she didn't have the AA advantage on her side, and she great with her "sh*tty" city education (she graduated Magna Cum Ladue). It is not the color of the skin that determines your fate, but the resolve of your drive. So for all of you bleeding hearts out there what do you have to say about that???
</b>


Tsk tsk tsk... in response to your story... her efforts should be commended. Unfortunately it should not serve as the blueprint to a monumental problem. The issue concerning race/education/opportunities is a complicated one and simply cannot be fixed by one approach. It will take several different approaches combined. If it only needed one approach there would have been a solution already.

AA is an attempt to address a problem. The root of this policy is fundamentally sound, without it diversity in medical/law schools etc would be at an all time low.
Some may argue that this does not give minorities credit and fosters the view that minorities in medical school are inferior students.
In the atempts to correct a problem there will be misinterpretation as we work through the kinks. It does not mean that you remove it (AA) with no other means of maintaining the current diversity. One needs to only ask why, why was AA implemented? Are the same reasons for its implementation still present? If not show me how they are not.

Some of the reasons for its implementation stem from "ignorant" views that were/are institutionalized in this country in regard to minorities. If you believe that this has been snuffed out in less than sixty years years you are fooling yourself.

It is easy for you to say one should be accepted on one's own merit...I AGREE... but this does not eliminate legacy applicants nor the issue concerning access to education in lower socioeconomic groups. There is no reason why in this country all should not have equal acess to quality education. Yet we are all aware that this problem exists. You can sit and give examples all day about individuals who work hard and made it....there will be those but your theory is only sound if there are no other factors that can skew the playing field. The fact is that factors exist and since they do why do you keep pushing this approach as if they dont?
I dont hear you addressing those issues.

My main point is grasshopper that attacking the tip of the iceburg without concern of the base is a fools approach. Learn to see the iceburg in its entirety and then only then will you be enlightened..

Originally posted by Gbemi24
>>Racist? Please! I am merely recording my observations. I dare say I am not the only one who thinks that minority med students aren't as bright as their white and asian peers.<<

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Goes to show that you can find ignorance no matter the level of education.

A tip for the Asians out there...

Do NOT check the "Asian" box. It's that simple. Clearly it does not provide an advantage. And not clicking anything provides no disadvantage. Remember the adcoms only get the info you give them (well, except for the LOR's, but you send those too). I would recommend joining a Native American organization to have something to keep mentioning in the interview (e.g., "So what do you like to do in your spare time?" "I go to pow-wow's and try to get immersed in my heritage"... i.e., they were here before us so they provide some kind of heritage... and hey they came from Asia we came from Asia... so...). Oh, and try to get a deep tan before that interview.




(i hope some of you serious types realize i'm just kidding)

Originally posted by Natalie03
A tip for the Asians out there...

Do NOT check the "Asian" box. It's that simple. Clearly it does not provide an advantage. And not clicking anything provides no disadvantage.

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I wonder if there'd be a difference in interview/admissions trends if all SDNers left the ethnicity box blank...

I love how some of you are calling my opinions "racist" and "ignorant". And what gets me more is that you think I am alone in my "racist" thinking! You have no idea how many people think the same thoughts and think even worse thoughts about minorities in med school. To put it simply, I am by no means alone in thinking that as a generalization, minorities are less qualified and are poorer students in med school than whites and asians.

If you disagree, that's fine, but you cannot realistically disagree with observations that I have made. Just because you haven't made those observations, how can you be sure that my opinions aren't valid?

Those who disagree can simply do whatever they want...they can choose to go to a minority physician for their healthcare needs if they truly believe that that physician earned his Harvard degree or his Hopkins residency. But after seeing what I've seen, I'm not taking that chance. That's not being a racist, it's being a realist.

Originally posted by almostMD

I say this because after sharing classes and interacting with minority students on the wards, I can safely say that I will NEVER go to a minority doctor by my own accord. I guess, God-forbid I am in an accident where I can't choose my doctor, I may be forced to have a minority doctor take care of me. But if I am ever given the choice, I will never go to a minority doctor. I attend what one might call one the top med schools in the country, a school that basically has its pick of minority applicants. Even these creme de la creme minorities are bottom of the class.

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disturbing comments..... very sad....

i am a member of an underrepresented minority group.
i did well at a competitive undergraduate school.
i was a great medical student at a top medical school.
i am a great resident at a top hospital.
i am a great physician.
my patients would not go to a "non-minority" doctor.
too bad you haven't met me, then you wouldn't have such a skewed and limited view of "minority doctors".

To put it simply, I have seen the best minority minds in medicine and to be blunt, I am scared. I am scared for their future patients.

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i'm scared for your future patients. please, keep an open mind and broaden your viewpoints. it's too early in your career to be so ignorant.

Once again, in your attempts to peg me as a racist, you have neglected to note that I have been talking about generalizations here and that these opinions are based on my personal experiences. Nowhere did I say that EVERY minority med student is subpar. Perhaps there are outstanding minority students out there who will be great doctors, I just haven't met them yet. And my original point was that these great doctors are screwed b/c people will just assume they got through by affirmative action.

And, just so that you know, whatever opinions I have about my minority colleagues is in no way translated into my care for minority patients. My patient care is color blind.

Originally posted by edfig99
i'm scared for your future patients.

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My thoughts exactly...

Originally posted by almostMD
My patient care is color blind.

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Ohhhhh...it makes so much sense now!

So you're only a racist when you want to be...

Originally posted by almostMD
Once again, in your attempts to peg me as a racist, you have neglected to note that I have been talking about generalizations here and that these opinions are based on my personal experiences. Nowhere did I say that EVERY minority med student is subpar. Perhaps there are outstanding minority students out there who will be great doctors, I just haven't met them yet. And my original point was that these great doctors are screwed b/c people will just assume they got through by affirmative action.

And, just so that you know, whatever opinions I have about my minority colleagues is in no way translated into my care for minority patients. My patient care is color blind.

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Hey aMD,

I'm not trying to peg you as anything other than a little closed-minded. I know your posts are about generalizations and opinions on personal experiences... i'm just wary because that's the type of stuff that has contributed to the generation of stereotypes and the like. it was people having generalizations and opinions based on personal experiences that lead to events such as the Holocaust, lynchings, and the assassination of civil rights leaders.

I really don't think that minority doctors are screwed b/c people assume they got through by affirmative action. In fact, at least based on information presented by Lee Bollinger (formerly from UMich now here at Columbia, defending AA in the Supreme Court) most people support AA (most notably major corporations and the military)...or at least the concepts. I will agree, I think methods need improvement, however, the inequities that the current groups of URMs have experienced isn't something that should be ignored. In any case I don't think that patients will be the ones "screwing" these minority doctors b/c of AA b/c it really doesn't come into play in the exam room for most people. It's med students and future doctors and people who weren't good enough to get into medical school screwing the minority physicians, by thinking that "yeah, he's black, you know he didn't really earn his degree." Do you think pediatric neurosurgeon Ben Carson is "being screwed" b/c he's black by his patients? god forbid, if you knew a child that needed a brainstem tumor resected and he's the one that could take it out, you wouldn't go? c'mon...

p.s.

your patient care shouldn't be color blind.

there is a growing body of evidence showing that race and ethnicity should be factored in the treatment of many medical problems. some meds work better in blacks for some conditions, others in whites, and maybe others for asians. only justice is blind, not Aesculapius.

I think whites complain about AA because they are getting ****ed over. I think Indians complain about AA because they are also getting ****ed over. Pretty simple I thought?

Originally posted by almostMD
I love how some of you are calling my opinions "racist" and "ignorant". And what gets me more is that you think I am alone in my "racist" thinking! You have no idea how many people think the same thoughts and think even worse thoughts about minorities in med school. To put it simply, I am by no means alone in thinking that as a generalization, minorities are less qualified and are poorer students in med school than whites and asians.

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I don't recall anyone assuming you were the only person who holds this view. "Duh" is the first word that comes to mind. But then again, just because other people believe it as well doesn't make it true, or right, or not racist. I hope you do realize that it is a gross generalization, to attribute a select group of minority medical students to the entire group, and even further, to an entire race. While its okay for you to, for whatever reason, avoid minority doctors, and thats your perogative... as long as you keep it to yourself (i.e., don't encourage others to follow suit).

The reason your comments come across as racist is because instead of merely saying "I would never go to these-particular-med-school-students-who-were-at-the-bottom-of-the-class-who-just-happened-to-be-minority" for this and that reason, you singled out an entire race. You assume that the black students who attended your "Top 10ish" institution are the best our country has to offer, which I seriously doubt is true.

If you disagree, that's fine, but you cannot realistically disagree with observations that I have made. Just because you haven't made those observations, how can you be sure that my opinions aren't valid?

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True... can't argue with your personal observations. If you truly believe that those particular people aren't worthy of being doctors, then by all means, avoid them. Don't avoid their race because of them.

Those who disagree can simply do whatever they want...they can choose to go to a minority physician for their healthcare needs if they truly believe that that physician earned his Harvard degree or his Hopkins residency. But after seeing what I've seen, I'm not taking that chance. That's not being a racist, it's being a realist.

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Yeah, when you put it that way, it does sound kind of racist. I dunno, but if I'm sick or dying, I don't care if you're white, black, purple with pink polka dots, if a clinic or hospital has put you in a position in which you can help me, I wouldn't need anything else. Don't count on me to request MCAT scores and undergraduate and graduate GPAs and class rank when I'm on my death bed. If a hospital or clinic has enough confidence in you to put their own reputation on the line, then you're good enough.

almostMD was not being racist! geez... this is why affirmative action is still around! I don't blaim you guys though. If for some reason there was some rule in place that gave me a better chance at getting into med school I would bitch and moan and do everything I could to keep it in place. If that rule was because people were racist against me, I would jump on every statement people made and accuse them of being racist. He may have been being a little hasty and and displaying some anger, but it was rooted in logic and facts; it was not rooted in anger against a particular skin color (racism)!

...now everyone will try to tell me that i'm racist... lol.. bull****... if i were racist I wouldn't have survived high school... i wouldnt have had such a great time, giving the fact I am white and went to a mostly black high school!

Originally posted by almostMD
And my original point was that these great doctors are screwed b/c people will just assume they got through by affirmative action.

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AA might get you into med school, but it won't get you through it.

Nowhere did I say that EVERY minority med student is subpar. Perhaps there are outstanding minority students out there who will be great doctors, I just haven't met them yet.

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So its basically a flawed "guilty until proven innocent" logic, where you're not at all interested in the "innocent" part. I can understand your reasons for being cautious for your own sake. Just don't perpectuate something admittedly aren't sure about.

Heh... all this talk reminds me of an old Orlando Jones monologue, "Racism vs. Spam:

"There are many similarities between the two. Both can be sliced and diced to fit into to any conversation. Both spread easily...Both contain the letters a, m, and s, when rearranged spell the word mas which is the spanish word for "more," which you never hear people asking for for racism and/or spam. Both are crappy names for dogs... "

Which reminds me of "Fruitcake vs. Santa:"

"...both touch the hearts of millions... but fruitcake also touches your colon, and clogs your arteries..."

Which makes me miss the days when Mad TV was actually kinda funny...