Too much production-animal stuff?

I'm at Melbourne uni studying vet. Our uni is generally considered to be "smallies oriented". Our work experience looks like so:

Years 1-3
7 weeks of commercial farm
2 weeks shelter

Years 4-5
1 week rural (large animal) clinic
12 weeks of our choice (uni research, smallies, large, etc)
entire last year is based in a mixed practise uni clinic

I'm in 2nd year so I'm not a 100% sure if this is indeed completely accurate, but those are some approximate figures.

I really wouldn't jump to specialties just yet. Wait till you finish your degree then decide which area of vet med you're interested in. As for myself I have no idea which area I want to follow. However I think it's likely I'll go into small animal practice then become a specialist (given I get good marks). But I still have the doors very widely open. If large animal jobs are the only ones that accept me I'll happily go and work for a few years then decide from there on.

The argument here is that you may still need to understand the issues in the field and to deal with the questions/concerns your clients have about LA stuff. You really don't do anything small all 5 years? that doens' sound like what I have heard from other sources. It could be worse; you could be a zoo med person stuck learning all abou companion and food animals and then having to take lots of extra courses for wha you will work on....or be here and learn about American production, new zealand production, and european production, and S. American production.

I'm at UQ and I would say we're fairly mixed, maybe a little biased towards the companion animal side, but lacking in exotics. We have to do compulsory beef/sheep/dairy/equine pracs before 4th year commences and have further compulsory clinical LA work in 4th and 5th year.

We have 3 rural commercial practices that we rotate through in 5th year (Dayboro - dairy, Goondiwindi - pastoral and Oakey - Equine), although with the new vet school opening we may be doing some of this at the vet school itself, depending on caseload at the time I guess..

Then theres always the campus based small animal clinic and pathology that we also rotate through. I would say we're pretty well rounded, but personally I wan't to get into exotics and never have to touch a horse haha.. we all have our preferences!

Didn't you realize any of this before you started?

So, let me get this straight:

no SA in anatomy or physiology, just LA
none in parasitology or pathology or clinical studies
none is SA med and surgery

hmmmm... i should write and ask about that. weird to have no SA in the first 3 years but then have a surgery class on them.

We may get SA contact in courses a few times a month First year first semester, none second year second semester, and it varies in elective/selectives.

However, we also already covered nutrition, biochem, biology, chemistry, genetics and some others before we get here. We do learn alot of LA....but that is just a part of it to me.

You don't seem very happy at Massey Maybe you could try transferring to one of the AU schools if thats a possibility for you? (Massey is the only NZ vet school yeah? sorry if I'm wrong..) We have so many new vet schools opening up these days!

I'm a Massey student too. What Harry says is generally very accurate - the first three years are focussed almost entirely on large animals.

It's true that Massey students see a cat ONCE during the first three years. Live dogs probably 10 times. Cows probably 60 times. It's well out of balance.

Well.... NZ is pretty agriculture based and relatively small population of people so I might have expected a more LA oriented course (maybe).

I think farm pracs are universally hated so I share your pain there. We had to do 6 weeks of farm prac work--building fences, and generally doing more/working harder than the farmer and farm hands is not my idea of learning. Although it did cement my feelings of 'no way in hell am I doing LA or even Mixed practice'

The first 3 years at Murdoch do seem a bit skewed towards LA probably 60/40.

In general there had been complaints in the past about lack of animal contact prior to years 4/5 but that has changed a bit even for our year--although most of that has been LA, which is fine for me b/c I have heaps of experience in small animal so that prob would have been a waste of time for me anyhow (i.e. here is how you hold a cat, here is how you hold a dog, etc)

At the end of our 3rd year (or year 2.5 for the new curric) we can start clinical experiences at vet clinics where we are required to do 15 weeks. 2 weeks of which must be small animal and 2 weeks must be large animal/mixed. 1 week of each of those mandatory weeks will be done at Murdoch meaning we only have 1 week for small/large that -have- to be done, leaving us to focus either on small or large (both?) depending on what interests us most.

5th year begins our clinical rotations so we jump through everything for the whole year then.

In the end I think a good chunk of the material is able to be applied to SA med. I don't know what year you are in (entering year 4 soon?), but have you tried talking to the folks in the years ahead? Most of the time when people complain (here at Murdoch) about what is coming and the course in general they aren't quite aware of what the program has planned in the next few semesters or they conveniently forget bits that we did learn about in the past. There is also a lot of "In the states they do this" where people forget that every vet school has its own set of problems and issues that have to be dealt with, some of which very similar to what we experience at international schools.

just my 2 cents anyhow

HarryTheVet said:

You are right that all vet schools have their issues. I forget often that they are run by academics, who are generally freakin' idiots who couldn't hack it in the real world and are as much use as tits on a fish. Consequently, they couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. They bat off complaints without ever listening, and consider student feedback to be as welcome as a turd on a pool table.

Click to expand...

really?? is this really necessary?? why do i feel like i am a nagging parent right now. sighhh I assume you just chose to ignore my first reply to you in "surgical skills". GROW UP

HarryTheVet said:

Errr. . . no, I haven't read it.

How can you comment when you're not even in vet school? You've no idea how insanely irritating it is. If it was only me that whinged about the place, you'd be right, but I can assure you I am far from being the sole voice. So get down off your high horse.

Click to expand...

Why am I only allowed to comment on the maturity of a post if I am in vet school? I'm sure it is irritating, but it is also irritating for me to keep reading about how bad you think Massey is. From what I have read so far, you are the only one expressing your hatred for it. Yes, others have agreed that they focus more on LA than SA but no one has been commenting with such adolescent posts, like you.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not a straight up person. I curse and say jokes, but the tone of your posts is just turning me off. You aren't getting anywhere by complaining on SDN and insulting your school. Maybe you should try talking to people at your school and see if you can change something for the future classes there. Or maybe they will offer you some other experiences to build up other areas that you feel are lacking.

HarryTheVet said:

You probably wouldn't see anyone from Massey on here, because this is an American messageboard. I only stumbled on here by accident.

Click to expand...

I highly....highly... doubt that. There are plenty of American students that attend Massey. Word gets around.

It's *only* the internet and people can say whatever they feel like but remember, once it's out there you can't take it back.

You should take up birdwatching. I hear New Zealand has bitchin' birds.

You do realise that unlike the AU schools, Massey has tracking in 5th year. I got this straight out of a Massey students mouth on monday.

The reason most vet schools have such a large animal handling component at the start of the degree is because most students have never been around them - but have been around and are comfortable with cats and dogs and so comfort is not an issue. Its not safe to have nervous students around sick cows and horses - people get hurt.

So you made a mistake. Quit your whinging, harden up and deal with it. this kind of whinging is SUPER immature - and you say your an older student...

To go back to the original question we do get quite a bit of production medicine here in Alabama, but I don't think it's too overwhelming (and I'm an exotics person.. and a vegetarian )
I think it's important that even if you aren't going into prod. med. and KNOW you will NEVER treat a cow or pig or whatever it is very important for you to be knowledgeable about it to be a well rounded vet. And who knows, maybe the little piggies will call to you and you'll end up being a production vet for a 600,000 sow barn.

While everyone is entitled to an opinion, I don't think that Massey's curriculum is fatally flawed, bad for small animal vets or any worse than any other non-tracking or late-tracking school.

You have to keep in mind that the bulk of New Zealand exports are food animal products, and the NZ government needs to be able to mobilize all of its vets should there be a Foot and Mouth Disease outbreak or other agricultural catastrophe, so I don't see them moving towards a fully tracked curriculum or species-limited licensing plan any time soon.

You can see the required coursework for the degree on this page: http://vet-school.massey.ac.nz/coursedetails.asp With the exception of Animal Science second year, I don't feel like it is overly Food Animal centric. Look at the distribution of credits. In any degree, there are some classes people will be interested in and some classes students just have to slog through. That's life.

As mentioned above, you track fifth year into Small Animal, Equine, Production Animal, Special, or any of three versions of Mixed Animal programs. About 35 people (out of 99) in our class are Small Animal trackers. I am a Small Animal tracker.

sofficat said:

I think it's important that even if you aren't going into prod. med. and KNOW you will NEVER treat a cow or pig or whatever it is very important for you to be knowledgeable about it to be a well rounded vet.

Click to expand...

Just curious about this statement. Why exactly is it so important? For you personally or for anyone who is SA/exotics--take your pick. I'm curious.

And the argument that "being just like James Herriot is what being a veterinarian is all about" doesn't do it for me. Nor does the, "but I might change my mind later." Do you really think you're going to be capable of practicing on pigs five years or ten years after graduation if you change your mind?

alliecat44 said:

Just curious about this statement. Why exactly is it so important? For you personally or for anyone who is SA/exotics--take your pick. I'm curious.

Click to expand...

I think it's important to know where food comes from and, as a vet, you will be the one a lot of people (clients, friends, family) come to with questions if anything every happens (swine flu, mad cow, fmd). Don't you know that just because you are a vet it means that you know everything about every animal?? That's what a lot of people think. Plus, vets are on the forefront of a lot of diseases (think zoonotic) and humane issues (think horse slaughter). If we don't know much about how things are produced, what goes in to it, how the system works how are we supposed to speak intelligently on it?

Also, to answer your other question... "Do you really think you're going to be capable of practicing on pigs five years or ten years after graduation if you change your mind?" If you want to- why the heck not?! That's one of the things I love about vet med. Yeah you'll have to study/relearn a lot of things (key word relearn) and it might be challenging to find a vet who will take you in as if you are a new grad (think pay cut), but it's not out of the question at all.

When there is so very much to learn about your chosen species of interest that we do NOT get taught in schools--but could if we had the time/schools were motivated to change the curriculum in response to real-world needs, given that 80% of us go into private practice--do you think it's a fair trade that that your time and considerable thousands of dollars are spent learning minutiae about other species so that you can answer Bobby Joe's mother who's worried about FMD? When you could answer her very basic question without spending months in the classroom or weeks on a food animal rotation?

If time and money were renewable resources, then that's a different question. But when there is so much missing in our veterinary education--do you think the trade-off is worth it?

Would a one-semester overview course of food animal production and current issues in large animal zoonoses cover what you think the average client would ask you?

(by the way, the same could be said for those focusing on food animals or equine and all the small animal stuff--though it's much more likely that they will work on a dog or cat at some point in their career than a small animal person working on a cow, sheep, etc. Not trying to discriminate here.)

alliecat44 said:

When there is so very much to learn about your chosen species of interest that we do NOT get taught in schools--but could if we had the time/schools were motivated to change the curriculum in response to real-world needs, given that 80% of us go into private practice--do you think it's a fair trade that that your time and considerable thousands of dollars are spent learning minutiae about other species so that you can answer Bobby Joe's mother who's worried about FMD? When you could answer her very basic question without spending months in the classroom or weeks on a food animal rotation?

If time and money were renewable resources, then that's a different question. But when there is so much missing in our veterinary education--do you think the trade-off is worth it?

Would a one-semester overview course of food animal production and current issues in large animal zoonoses cover what you think the average client would ask you?

(by the way, the same could be said for those focusing on food animals or equine and all the small animal stuff--though it's much more likely that they will work on a dog or cat at some point in their career than a small animal person working on a cow, sheep, etc. Not trying to discriminate here.)

Click to expand...

You have a lot of good points, but I'm still with the opinion that learning about species 'you'll never work on' is better than being very naive about all things cow (or horse, or bird...). I like the fact that Auburn doesn't track their students. I like having a broad knowledge of a lot of different species. I am glad I have a food animal rotation and an equine rotation and that I get to learn about them in the classroom. I do think that the basic knowledge is usually sufficient enough to answer questions from the average person/client (you even said so with your fmd example).
Also, many students don't know what their interest is and being exposed to many many aspect of vet med is a good thing. Do I have to do extra work to learn about exotics animals? Yes. Am I ok with that? Obviously. I would hate to go to vet school and leave not knowing basic cow knowledge or without ever touching a cow. And what if I hate private practice in my small animal/exotics world? Then I wouldn't even have the option of changing careers into a mixed animal practice. How many students REALLY know what they want to do? Not a whole lot. I love exotics, but small ruminants are super cool and I could see myself doing farm calls to visit a herd of goats and alpacas. I went on a mission trip to India last summer and saw cows, goats and water buffalo and I'm super glad we learned about them!
No one knows what their career holds for them.

What if instead you could graduate with a much deeper knowledge base of the species you know for sure you want to work on, and a more superficial knowledge of species you "might want to work on one day"? When you admit that to switch streams later on will require extensive studying/relearning anyway (as we all know a) how much of what we drink from the firehouse we actually retain if we don't use it; and b) how quickly things change in medicine)?

What if you could exchange some time on species you know for sure you will never work with/on--say, a month of equine therio lectures (just trying to pick something it sounds like you're not interested in at all)--in exchange for time on species you definitely do want to work with for at least 5-10 years (more exotics stuff, more in-depth SA stuff, whatever, take your pick)? What would you choose then?

Personally, I think the majority of veterinary students have no idea how screwed they are going to be when they graduate. Our knowledge base is so wide but so shallow...

Yes, you can choose to do whatever you want in your career--that's great--but at some point you do have to choose. Do engineers get a general engineering degree and then go out and bounce around from electrical to civil to mechanical? No? Well, there's a reason.

There is SO MUCH information and, I believe, so much that is lacking in our curriculums that can and should be taught that we really don't have time to spend on things that we will never ever do. My resources (intellectual, temporal and--not the least--financial) could be much better spent learning how to, say, actually deal with clients. Or what options to present to an owner whose pet presents with X and only has $Y. Or practicing how to do a fundic exam. Or learning more medicine, getting some experience with ultrasound, or taking a course in practice management. How about I get enough practice doing spays that it only takes me half an hour so that I can make enough profit for my new boss that he can pay me something close to a liveable wage within the first two years after graduating with all this debt? (We have no shelter rotation, do 1-2 spays in junior surgery + 1-2 more in our soft tissue rotation, and our local humane societies actually require US to PAY THEM in order to spend time there doing s/n.)

And I'm sure the LA folks feel very much the same way!! Why should they have to scrub in on a total hip replacement for three hours when they could be palpating a bunch of cattle? etc.

Why can't we be ready to practice when we graduate??

I think the first step is being smarter in allocating TIME--after all, it's only a four year curriculum. And I don't think any of us want to be on the hook for another year's tuition!

Just MHO.

Edited - didn't read alliecat's whole post.

Well said, alliecat. I guess it's a bit different here at Auburn because we do get to practice fundic exams, we can take small animal ultrasound elective, there is an elective on practice management (well, in combo with finance), we do get to practice spay and neuters (YOU have to pay the SHELTER?!). I can see how it is frustrating to not get in depth info on what you are interested in (esp here where we don't have any type of exotics program!). I'm sure I'll have to work my butt off when I graduate, esp to learn exotics stuff, but at the same time I love getting experience with all other animals. I love mission work and I want to continue doing that so I do want to know a bit about bovine repro (I got to palpate water buffaloes in India! ). I guess that is why different schools offer different curriculum to choose from, people don't all want the same thing. I respect and understand your opinion and I hope you (and I) won't be as lost when we graduate as much as we could be . In the mean time, I have a pig production exam to study for

I reckon eventually it'll all go to tracking and you'll pick small, exotic, research, or large to do, and then focus only on those and get certified only to practice on animals in that category. Specializing being required, in other words.

Can't really decide whether that's a good thing or not.

sofficat, I completely respect your views as well and certainly support you in your decisions. Mission work is especially grueling and rewarding, from what I've heard. Good for you!

I'll admit to being a huge fan of limited licensure (what HopefulAg was describing) but not knowing exactly what it would look like. And of course, the need for rural mixed practitioners has to be satisfied, too. It's a messy problem but one that I feel is necessary to solve. People come out of school halfway prepared for lots of different things but not thoroughly prepared for any single thing. With this much debt and what practice owners are going through financially right now, I don't think that's very helpful or fair to expect the practice owner to take a financial hit the first 2-4 years we're out in order to complete the training that we paid big bucks for. A big reason why the numbers of new grads pursuing internships is skyrocketing is because of a very decreased confidence level of new grads--they don't feel ready. Many of these people now seeking internships have no intention on specializing--they just don't feel ready to see cases on their own. It's sad to have gone this much into debt and still feel so unprepared.

It's great that Auburn has those electives. We have one three-hour optho exam lab in the fall of junior year. Then two weeks of optho on clinics. Not allowed to touch the ultrasound, even as seniors. No practice management (but they're adding it for the class of 2013). Mississippi State has a required HS rotation where their students do 30-40 spays/neuters a week--their graduate is a lot more marketable than I am, since I've done two at 2.5 hours each. My externships are already taken up with pursuing a specialty that my school doesn't even have (trying to get exposure/experience/develop contacts for a future residency), so I do not have the time or financial resources to spend weeks at a humane society my senior year.

It would be great if core skill sets for certain types of practitioners were equally emphasized at the schools. For most of us, where to go to vet school/the specific "program" is NOT really a choice (it wasn't for me)--it's where you get accepted.

I just think it could be better. I think WE could be better. Fortunately there's something called the NAVMEC that is beginning to go about establishing those standard skill sets--but it's a long process.

(Again, would just like to say that the only reason I'm not holding LA examples up is because I honestly have no idea what skill set is important to them--I don't have the background. Even after taking food animal medicine. I've never grown up with it--which is another reason why the learning curve to go into FA would be so much steeper/much less realistic for a student like me.)

Good luck on your pig exam! I'm off to take one on zoonosis.

Whew, one reason I like Mizzou! We don't track, but I really appreciate that we get enough free blocks by formally starting clinics October of third year to do outside preceptorships/externships and whatnot just about wherever we want. I did one last month with a DVM PhD who used to be an Army vet who is now certified in rehab (which is precisely what I want to be certified in along with a nutrition residency) up in Omaha. I'll do one next month with someone who does 85% canine repro in Chicago. Trying to do others in Colorado and North Carolina.

I'm currently on a rotation that sends you out to a mixed or solely food animal/therio private practice to get dual credit for both preceptorship hours (we are required to do 340 or 360, can't remember which, to get a Missouri license) and elective hours. I have been castrating bull calves, suturing up prolapses of both varieties, finally sorta kinda learning the ropes for palpations and BSEs, drawing blood and ultrasounding goats, and so on, plus doing a few cat/dog neuters and spays relatively on my own with a doctor nearby to spot me.

Anyways, I like how they do that. You're expected to know about everything, but you also have the time built in during clinical rotations to go out and do other things that you're interested in. Some people just stay nearby in small animal clinics and just practice their basic skills. Others go around the world. It's all good...

Electrophile, that's the huge benefit of the 2+2 curriculum....really wish more schools would move toward that model.

Our senior rotations are assigned by computer after you fill out a "wishlist" for your schedule.

I know some people who only have one-week long stretches for vacation/externship--nothing longer--thanks to the computer system.

How many places do you think take externs for one week? Forget about anything at another academic institution. How many people do you think can afford travel/housing for multiple one-week trips? Not so good. Granted, it's not that many people--but there are some who this has happened to. Which, yet again, is just another way that things are limiting in regards to experience.

And I know for a fact this isn't just MY school--there are schools that are more progressive than others--I think my school is right in the middle/average/status quo.

I haven't done any academic externships yet (they seem quite a bit more rigid in what they have you do), but many places that have vet students come for an externship/preceptorship are given housing. Me and a classmate friend of mine went to Denver for a week long one and we got to use the practice owner's cousin's gorgeous townhouse just 10 minutes from downtown Denver. It was most excellent! The practice I'm doing this food animal externship with now has an apartment above the practice I could use if I liked. It's about an hour drive, so I haven't done so yet so I don't neglect hubby and the animals, but it wouldn't be so bad.

HarryTheVet said:

HAHAHAHA! You hear wrong, my friend

Click to expand...

You mean David Attenborough lied to me?

In NZ's case, birds were there long before mammals ever arrived (and humans were the first of those)... so the birds were able to fill many niches that mammals filled in other locations. There still exists a species of parrot in which the male climbs up into the mountains at night and calls for a mate - the calls can be heard for miles. It sounded pretty nice to me.

In response to thew original topic, I understand what everyone is saying here... but if they'll give me my DVM, I'll learn as much about cows as they want. If I'm interested in pathology, specifically, does that mean that most of what I'll learn won't apply? Or does that mean that EVERYTHING I learn will apply? Not sure what would be worse.