Great Article About PSA in NYT

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

pathstudent

Sound Kapital
20+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
79
THis is from the pathologist who discovered PSA. It is a disgrace how it is used, and how urologists and pathologists "milked" the system by generating those "12 quadrant" biopsies to maximize the bill when they can just have easily been put in one container or two and lowered the pathology bill by a 12th or a 6th. I have seen patients go to prostatectomy with 2% in one core and it didn't have anything to do with it being in the left lower base or whatever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/opinion/10Ablin.html

By RICHARD J. ABLIN
Published: March 9, 2010
Tuscon


EACH year some 30 million American men undergo testing for prostate-specific antigen, an enzyme made by the prostate. Approved by the Food and Drug Administration in 1994, the P.S.A. test is the most commonly used tool for detecting prostate cancer.

The test’s popularity has led to a hugely expensive public health disaster. It’s an issue I am painfully familiar with — I discovered P.S.A. in 1970. As Congress searches for ways to cut costs in our health care system, a significant savings could come from changing the way the antigen is used to screen for prostate cancer.

Americans spend an enormous amount testing for prostate cancer. The annual bill for P.S.A. screening is at least $3 billion, with much of it paid for by Medicare and the Veterans Administration.

Prostate cancer may get a lot of press, but consider the numbers: American men have a 16 percent lifetime chance of receiving a diagnosis of prostate cancer, but only a 3 percent chance of dying from it. That’s because the majority of prostate cancers grow slowly. In other words, men lucky enough to reach old age are much more likely to die with prostate cancer than to die of it.

Even then, the test is hardly more effective than a coin toss. As I’ve been trying to make clear for many years now, P.S.A. testing can’t detect prostate cancer and, more important, it can’t distinguish between the two types of prostate cancer — the one that will kill you and the one that won’t.

Instead, the test simply reveals how much of the prostate antigen a man has in his blood. Infections, over-the-counter drugs like ibuprofen, and benign swelling of the prostate can all elevate a man’s P.S.A. levels, but none of these factors signals cancer. Men with low readings might still harbor dangerous cancers, while those with high readings might be completely healthy.

In approving the procedure, the Food and Drug Administration relied heavily on a study that showed testing could detect 3.8 percent of prostate cancers, which was a better rate than the standard method, a digital rectal exam.

Still, 3.8 percent is a small number. Nevertheless, especially in the early days of screening, men with a reading over four nanograms per milliliter were sent for painful prostate biopsies. If the biopsy showed any signs of cancer, the patient was almost always pushed into surgery, intensive radiation or other damaging treatments.

The medical community is slowly turning against P.S.A. screening. Last year, The New England Journal of Medicine published results from the two largest studies of the screening procedure, one in Europe and one in the United States. The results from the American study show that over a period of 7 to 10 years, screening did not reduce the death rate in men 55 and over.

The European study showed a small decline in death rates, but also found that 48 men would need to be treated to save one life. That’s 47 men who, in all likelihood, can no longer function sexually or stay out of the bathroom for long.

Numerous early screening proponents, including Thomas Stamey, a well-known Stanford University urologist, have come out against routine testing; last month, the American Cancer Society urged more caution in using the test. The American College of Preventive Medicine also concluded that there was insufficient evidence to recommend routine screening.

So why is it still used? Because drug companies continue peddling the tests and advocacy groups push “prostate cancer awareness” by encouraging men to get screened. Shamefully, the American Urological Association still recommends screening, while the National Cancer Institute is vague on the issue, stating that the evidence is unclear.

The federal panel empowered to evaluate cancer screening tests, the Preventive Services Task Force, recently recommended against P.S.A. screening for men aged 75 or older. But the group has still not made a recommendation either way for younger men.

Prostate-specific antigen testing does have a place. After treatment for prostate cancer, for instance, a rapidly rising score indicates a return of the disease. And men with a family history of prostate cancer should probably get tested regularly. If their score starts skyrocketing, it could mean cancer.

But these uses are limited. Testing should absolutely not be deployed to screen the entire population of men over the age of 50, the outcome pushed by those who stand to profit.

I never dreamed that my discovery four decades ago would lead to such a profit-driven public health disaster. The medical community must confront reality and stop the inappropriate use of P.S.A. screening. Doing so would save billions of dollars and rescue millions of men from unnecessary, debilitating treatments.

Richard J. Ablin is a research professor of immunobiology and pathology at the University of Arizona College of Medicine and the president of the Robert Benjamin Ablin Foundation for Cancer Research.
 
Seriously this is a big deal.

Pathologists and urologists have been making huge cash off these 12 quadrant biopsies diagnosing a disease which was most likely of no consequence and leading to a definitive treatment which would likely leave the patient impotent.

One day someone in the govt is going to wonder why the average pathology bill for a prostate biopsy is 2000 while it is 1/12th for a breast cancer biopsy, when technically a prostate biopsy and breast biopsy were both supposed to be 88305.

Seriously these 12 quadrant biopsies are an example of pathologists and urologists trying to milk the cash cow. They are, from what I can tell, no benefit over just putting all the biopsies in one container and just getting one 88305 instead of 12. In fact it has been shown that even on prostatectomy the whole separating the stages into pT2a, pT2b and pT2c is of no prognostic consequence so while the hell are doing these 12 quadrant biopsies be needed.

If we don't police greedy ass pathologists and urologists the govt is going to **** up the whole 88305 for every specimen by slashing it drastically, and remember as the govt does so does private insurance.





THis is from the pathologist who discovered PSA. It is a disgrace how it is used, and how urologists and pathologists "milked" the system by generating those "12 quadrant" biopsies to maximize the bill when they can just have easily been put in one container or two and lowered the pathology bill by a 12th or a 6th. I have seen patients go to prostatectomy with 2% in one core and it didn't have anything to do with it being in the left lower base or whatever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/opinion/10Ablin.html

By RICHARD J. ABLIN
Published: March 9, 2010
Tuscon


EACH year some 30 million American men undergo testing for prostate-specific antigen, an enzyme made by the prostate. Approved by the Food and Drug Administration in 1994, the P.S.A. test is the most commonly used tool for detecting prostate cancer.

The test’s popularity has led to a hugely expensive public health disaster. It’s an issue I am painfully familiar with — I discovered P.S.A. in 1970. As Congress searches for ways to cut costs in our health care system, a significant savings could come from changing the way the antigen is used to screen for prostate cancer.

Americans spend an enormous amount testing for prostate cancer. The annual bill for P.S.A. screening is at least $3 billion, with much of it paid for by Medicare and the Veterans Administration.

Prostate cancer may get a lot of press, but consider the numbers: American men have a 16 percent lifetime chance of receiving a diagnosis of prostate cancer, but only a 3 percent chance of dying from it. That’s because the majority of prostate cancers grow slowly. In other words, men lucky enough to reach old age are much more likely to die with prostate cancer than to die of it.

Even then, the test is hardly more effective than a coin toss. As I’ve been trying to make clear for many years now, P.S.A. testing can’t detect prostate cancer and, more important, it can’t distinguish between the two types of prostate cancer — the one that will kill you and the one that won’t.

Instead, the test simply reveals how much of the prostate antigen a man has in his blood. Infections, over-the-counter drugs like ibuprofen, and benign swelling of the prostate can all elevate a man’s P.S.A. levels, but none of these factors signals cancer. Men with low readings might still harbor dangerous cancers, while those with high readings might be completely healthy.

In approving the procedure, the Food and Drug Administration relied heavily on a study that showed testing could detect 3.8 percent of prostate cancers, which was a better rate than the standard method, a digital rectal exam.

Still, 3.8 percent is a small number. Nevertheless, especially in the early days of screening, men with a reading over four nanograms per milliliter were sent for painful prostate biopsies. If the biopsy showed any signs of cancer, the patient was almost always pushed into surgery, intensive radiation or other damaging treatments.

The medical community is slowly turning against P.S.A. screening. Last year, The New England Journal of Medicine published results from the two largest studies of the screening procedure, one in Europe and one in the United States. The results from the American study show that over a period of 7 to 10 years, screening did not reduce the death rate in men 55 and over.

The European study showed a small decline in death rates, but also found that 48 men would need to be treated to save one life. That’s 47 men who, in all likelihood, can no longer function sexually or stay out of the bathroom for long.

Numerous early screening proponents, including Thomas Stamey, a well-known Stanford University urologist, have come out against routine testing; last month, the American Cancer Society urged more caution in using the test. The American College of Preventive Medicine also concluded that there was insufficient evidence to recommend routine screening.

So why is it still used? Because drug companies continue peddling the tests and advocacy groups push “prostate cancer awareness” by encouraging men to get screened. Shamefully, the American Urological Association still recommends screening, while the National Cancer Institute is vague on the issue, stating that the evidence is unclear.

The federal panel empowered to evaluate cancer screening tests, the Preventive Services Task Force, recently recommended against P.S.A. screening for men aged 75 or older. But the group has still not made a recommendation either way for younger men.

Prostate-specific antigen testing does have a place. After treatment for prostate cancer, for instance, a rapidly rising score indicates a return of the disease. And men with a family history of prostate cancer should probably get tested regularly. If their score starts skyrocketing, it could mean cancer.

But these uses are limited. Testing should absolutely not be deployed to screen the entire population of men over the age of 50, the outcome pushed by those who stand to profit.

I never dreamed that my discovery four decades ago would lead to such a profit-driven public health disaster. The medical community must confront reality and stop the inappropriate use of P.S.A. screening. Doing so would save billions of dollars and rescue millions of men from unnecessary, debilitating treatments.

Richard J. Ablin is a research professor of immunobiology and pathology at the University of Arizona College of Medicine and the president of the Robert Benjamin Ablin Foundation for Cancer Research.
 
It is true that some pathologists (not all since many prostate biopsies are signed out via in-office labs or reference labs) are making lots of $$$ on prostate biopsies, but it is urology that is the driving force behind the increase. Pathologists are merely passive beneficiaries.

Actually, if we get screwed we are going to get screwed because we use predominantly 3 CPT codes (88305, 88307, 88309) for most of what we do while other specialties might have 20 for the same distribution of services. In fact the majority of what many pathologists bill is just one CPT code. The vast majority of our income (yes, even in academics) is all tied up in relatively few CPT codes. All of the eggs in one basket - that strategy was poorly played by the pathology cohort.
 
Part of 88305 is time commitment and tech time though. Breast biopsies are not entirely comparable because there is a mass and usually there are 2-3 cores sampled directly from it, which can all be put in one block. Prostate cores to be optimally examined need to be no more than 2 per block, and numerous studies have shown that a 12 core biopsy series is much better than 6 at detecting clinically important cancers (as well as clinically unimportant cancers!). I agree the 12 separate specimen thing is unnecessary, but 6 sites (two cores per site) is more informative - they do adjust their treatment based on location. CPT coding has been adjusted recently to provide a separate code for extensive biopsy series.

Now, this is an interesting article, but it is missing one important factor - lawsuits. There was a recent lawsuit I read about where the family physician had a discussion with a patient about doing PSA as a supplement to a normal DRE to screen for cancer. They discussed benefits, risks. Patient decided not to get it. Two years later patient had a PSA from another physician, it was elevated and he had cancer. So he sued the family doc for delayed diagnosis. This happens a lot. It is getting to the point where if patients do wish to decline PSA testing they may have to sign a waiver stating they understand the risks. And despite all the recommendations, many patients just want their cancer treated because they would rather deal with the potential side effects than the potential progression. A lot of this is education of the patient by physicians but a lot of it is also the problem that it is difficult to apply wide trends to one individual patient.

Prostate cancer is definitely overtreated but where do you draw the line? There is no real good evidence now as to where to draw that line. Do you only treat 4+3 and higher? What it seems like is happening is that there will be an increasing array of tests (molecular and otherwise) that attempt to stratify risk in either the screening populations or patients already diagnosed. This may end up adding even more to the cost of care even if it reduces some surgeries.
 
Now, this is an interesting article, but it is missing one important factor - lawsuits. There was a recent lawsuit I read about where the family physician had a discussion with a patient about doing PSA as a supplement to a normal DRE to screen for cancer. They discussed benefits, risks. Patient decided not to get it. Two years later patient had a PSA from another physician, it was elevated and he had cancer. So he sued the family doc for delayed diagnosis. This happens a lot. It is getting to the point where if patients do wish to decline PSA testing they may have to sign a waiver stating they understand the risks. And despite all the recommendations, many patients just want their cancer treated because they would rather deal with the potential side effects than the potential progression. A lot of this is education of the patient by physicians but a lot of it is also the problem that it is difficult to apply wide trends to one individual patient.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but I would like to know how much this waiver was worth in court, and what the outcome of the lawsuit was. Do courts even take these waivers seriously?
 
Sorry yaah, I still think prostate biopsies are formatted to maximize profits for urologists and have nothing to do with diagnosis/prognosis.

The CMS is going to shut this down at some point. What they should do is give a fixed price for pathology intrepetation of a prostate biopsy regardless of how many biopsies are put in how many different containers. It just doesn't make sense that if you put the biopsies in 12 different containers versus putting them in left versus right that the pathology bill should be 6x as much. We need to police ourselves or the govt (ergo insurance cos) will ruin everything for all pathologists.

Regarding your lawsuit. That is anedoctal and besides anyone can sue anyone for anything.


Part of 88305 is time commitment and tech time though. Breast biopsies are not entirely comparable because there is a mass and usually there are 2-3 cores sampled directly from it, which can all be put in one block. Prostate cores to be optimally examined need to be no more than 2 per block, and numerous studies have shown that a 12 core biopsy series is much better than 6 at detecting clinically important cancers (as well as clinically unimportant cancers!). I agree the 12 separate specimen thing is unnecessary, but 6 sites (two cores per site) is more informative - they do adjust their treatment based on location. CPT coding has been adjusted recently to provide a separate code for extensive biopsy series.

Now, this is an interesting article, but it is missing one important factor - lawsuits. There was a recent lawsuit I read about where the family physician had a discussion with a patient about doing PSA as a supplement to a normal DRE to screen for cancer. They discussed benefits, risks. Patient decided not to get it. Two years later patient had a PSA from another physician, it was elevated and he had cancer. So he sued the family doc for delayed diagnosis. This happens a lot. It is getting to the point where if patients do wish to decline PSA testing they may have to sign a waiver stating they understand the risks. And despite all the recommendations, many patients just want their cancer treated because they would rather deal with the potential side effects than the potential progression. A lot of this is education of the patient by physicians but a lot of it is also the problem that it is difficult to apply wide trends to one individual patient.

Prostate cancer is definitely overtreated but where do you draw the line? There is no real good evidence now as to where to draw that line. Do you only treat 4+3 and higher? What it seems like is happening is that there will be an increasing array of tests (molecular and otherwise) that attempt to stratify risk in either the screening populations or patients already diagnosed. This may end up adding even more to the cost of care even if it reduces some surgeries.
 
While it's hard to dispute that this is not anecdotal, the case I think Yaah is referring to is quite telling. It was written about in JAMA back in 2004 (see "Winners and Losers". JAMA 2004; 291: 15-16) and in TIME magazine back in February 2007. Here is an excerpt from the TIME magazine piece….

"Consider the case of Dr. Daniel Merenstein, a family-medicine physician trained in evidence-based practice. In 1999 Merenstein examined a healthy 53-year-old man who showed no signs of prostate cancer. As he had been taught, Merenstein explained to his patient that there are advantages and disadvantages to having a blood test for prostate-specific antigen (PSA). The test can lead to early detection of prostate cancer but also to unnecessary biopsies and even treatment--with all its attendant risks of impotence and incontinence--for a cancer that might have grown so slowly that it didn't need immediate attention. And for aggressive prostate cancers, there is little evidence that early detection makes a difference in whether treatment could save your life. As a result, the patient did not get a PSA test.
Unfortunately, several years later, the patient was found to have a very aggressive and incurable prostate cancer. He sued Merenstein for not ordering a PSA test, and a jury agreed--despite the lack of evidence that it would have made a difference. Most doctors in the plaintiff's state, the lawyers showed, would have ignored the debate and simply ordered the test. Although Merenstein was found not liable, the residency program that trained him in evidence-based practice was--to the tune of $1 million."

How are we suppose to use information from scientific studies when the programs developed to train residents in evidence based medicine actually get sued for doing so? This is absolutely frustrating and ridiculous at the same time. In fixing the healthcare system it will be of the utmost importance to address the issue of tort reform as malpractice suits such as the one referenced above have a very large and real impact on medical costs. Physicians will continue to ignore evidence—such as cancer screening recommendations—even when they are aware of them and practice defensive medicine as long as lawyers are allowed to dictate what constitutes "correct evidence". While I am sure some physicians do things to line their pockets, I don't believe most physicians (including urologists) ignore such evidence so they can make more money but do so for two primary reasons…1) lawsuits. 2) patient demands. This second issue is going to be a HUGE hurdle to overcome for everyone in this country—not just physicians and politicians—if healthcare costs are to be reduced. It's not about rationing care, it's about rational care. Anyone, who has ever dealt with a disease themselves or an illness in a loved one—a son, a daughter, mother, or spouse—understands this. It's difficult to be objective when it's you or someone you love who is the patient. Cost is only an issue if it's someone you don't know.
This issue extends well beyond PSA screening, which is just the tip of the iceberg, to much more contentious issues such as end of life care, neonatal ICU care, and screening for other cancers (like breast). We desperately need tort reform so we can move towards a system where medical decisions are based on solid scientific evidence and not fear of lawsuits.
 
Last edited:
Sorry to go on a tangent, but I would like to know how much this waiver was worth in court, and what the outcome of the lawsuit was. Do courts even take these waivers seriously?

I was speaking hypothetically. I know of no such waiver actually being used. It probably wouldn't hold up anyway based on the way juries tend to think (i.e. not logically).
 
They better get Michael Milken and Joe Torre on the "say no to screening" bandwagon if they want any headway. The current political environment says that screening is good and early detection is the key. It doesn't have as much to do with greedy urologists as you would think. Lupron administration had a lot to do with greedy urologists. So does the robotic surgery, I would say.

As far as splitting up the cores, who the hell knows. As best as I can tell you don't really get reimbursed for 12 88305s at the same rate anyway. I haven't become completely educating in billing methods yet, but at some point insurances stop paying, just like for immunos and frozen sections. They also have new CPT codes for saturation biopsies. There are greedy pathologists who do triple immunos on EVERY CORE though. The whole problem is the technical component billing. If they cut technical component billing it would probably help private pathologists, oddly enough. But instead they keep raising reimbursement for TC and cutting it from PC. +pissed+
 
Top