Cold feet for pharmacy school?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
D

desklamp

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
329
Reaction score
8
Members don't see this ad.
Anyone else getting cold feet the months before pharm school starts? Everytime I look at the loans i've taken out for just the first year I start freaking out.

And then coming on the forums and reading about the flood of new schools opening, the difficulty finding jobs (in good locations), having to do 2 years of residency now just to even be competitive for a position as a clinical pharmacist.

And then talking to my PhD and M.D. friends who will either be making a ton of money to pay off their debts + guaranteed a job, or getting paid to get their doctorate.

Before anyone does the whole "oh you have to LOVE pharmacy it's not about the money" let's be honest here. Money is important. Planning your future is important. It doesn't make sense fiscally to throw yourself into a debt when the prospects of that career path are dimming. I do love the clinical aspect of pharmacy, but now that it seems so difficult to obtain, I am asking myself whether it's worth the opportunity costs (my relationship, 160k in loans, 6 years of my life).

I suppose my question is, is anyone else feeling this way or had the thought cross their mind? how did you convince yourself that you will have a future doing what you love, if what you love is not retail? What are your opinions on PhD vs. PharmD?
 
desklamp said:
Anyone else getting cold feet the months before pharm school starts? Everytime I look at the loans i've taken out for just the first year I start freaking out.

And then coming on the forums and reading about the flood of new schools opening, the difficulty finding jobs (in good locations), having to do 2 years of residency now just to even be competitive for a position as a clinical pharmacist.

And then talking to my PhD and M.D. friends who will either be making a ton of money to pay off their debts + guaranteed a job, or getting paid to get their doctorate.

Before anyone does the whole "oh you have to LOVE pharmacy it's not about the money" let's be honest here. Money is important. Planning your future is important. It doesn't make sense fiscally to throw yourself into a debt when the prospects of that career path are dimming. I do love the clinical aspect of pharmacy, but now that it seems so difficult to obtain, I am asking myself whether it's worth the opportunity costs (my relationship, 160k in loans, 6 years of my life).

I suppose my question is, is anyone else feeling this way or had the thought cross their mind? how did you convince yourself that you will have a future doing what you love, if what you love is not retail? What are your opinions on PhD vs. PharmD?
Click to expand...

I've had thoughts like that during the school year. But instead of quitting, I stayed in school and I'm currently working as an intern.

All of the talk about job trends may affect most places, but if you look around in small towns close to where you live, you might find places where things are a bit different. It may not be a place you want to live, but if you can work there while living at a place you want (as long as the commute wasn't too bad), wouldn't that work out?

If you're worried about finding a job as an intern, I'd recommend talking to P3s and P4s, and meet as many of them as you can. Once they leave for rotations or pharmacist jobs, the stores may have openings for interns, and you'll get one right away through connections without having to wonder if you have to fill out an application and wait.

Just try to hang in there, and talk to upper class students about any concerns you have, because they'll know someone who may have had the same thoughts you did. If you talk to someone who has been through the same thing that you may be going through, it'll be easy for the person to relate and you may feel comfortable talking to that person.

Hope this helps.
 
desklamp said:
What are your opinions on PhD vs. PharmD?
Click to expand...

There is not one single profession that is going to be guaranteed and things have a way of changing rapidly (as is evidenced by all of the worry about pharmacy jobs).

I have a PhD and it's also difficult to get a job unless you have just the right skill set, have a lot of contacts, etc. Is research what you are willing to do? Yes, doctoral students get a stipend and a tuition waiver, but is it enough to live on in the area the school is located? My stipend in graduate school was around $14K (about 10 years ago), which was good (for the town I lived), but it's not a lot of money and I racked up quite a bit of credit card debt and some student loan debt while in graduate school.

My salary as a professor was low for the number of years spent in school relative to colleagues who were lucky enough to find (and keep) jobs in industry. (And most of us were "required" to do postdoctoral research which can last anywhere from 2 years to 5 years)

There are many doctors who make a lot of money from their job, but there is also the extra 4 or more years of residency (compared to pharmacy) and malpractice insurance to deal with.....in Florida, the average malpractice insurance for obstetricians is ~ $90K / year....😱

What are you most interested in doing? Is it research? (Have you done a significant amount of research --- 3 months or more of dedicated research? If not, you may love it or hate it......) or do you want to work in the medical field? Usually when one is exposed to either environment, the decision usually makes itself......
 
Absolutely. Fortunately, I take comfort in the fact that I'm young enough that pharmacist salaries would have to drop by 25-35% for me to be losing money by pursuing this path. (Of course, if pharmacist salaries stay stagnant for ten or fifteen years, inflation will have done the same damage.)

I cringe for those people who are going to be losing money with the current market, let alone if the market gets worse.

4 years + (in some cases) pre-requisites + 100K in tuition (for public schools in California, some other states are more fortunate) = a lot of lost money.
 
OChemProf said:
There is not one single profession that is going to be guaranteed and things have a way of changing rapidly (as is evidenced by all of the worry about pharmacy jobs).

I have a PhD and it's also difficult to get a job unless you have just the right skill set, have a lot of contacts, etc. Is research what you are willing to do? Yes, doctoral students get a stipend and a tuition waiver, but is it enough to live on in the area the school is located? My stipend in graduate school was around $14K (about 10 years ago), which was good (for the town I lived), but it's not a lot of money and I racked up quite a bit of credit card debt and some student loan debt while in graduate school.

My salary as a professor was low for the number of years spent in school relative to colleagues who were lucky enough to find (and keep) jobs in industry. (And most of us were "required" to do postdoctoral research which can last anywhere from 2 years to 5 years)

There are many doctors who make a lot of money from their job, but there is also the extra 4 or more years of residency (compared to pharmacy) and malpractice insurance to deal with.....in Florida, the average malpractice insurance for obstetricians is ~ $90K / year....😱

What are you most interested in doing? Is it research? (Have you done a significant amount of research --- 3 months or more of dedicated research? If not, you may love it or hate it......) or do you want to work in the medical field? Usually when one is exposed to either environment, the decision usually makes itself......
Click to expand...

Thanks for the responses all 🙂 Good to know that a lot of you stuck through it, gives me hope.

I do like research (actually I have a little bit of a background in research--around 2-3 years or so-- more than I do in pharmacy which is weird I suppose), but I like it maybe a little less than I would like being a clinical pharmacist. Although I like research a WHOLE lot more than I would retail pharmacy. Which is why I'm having second thoughts, now that it seems much more difficult to obtain a clinical career.

Just curious though, what made you decide to go for the Pharm D too?
 
desklamp said:
Anyone else getting cold feet the months before pharm school starts? Everytime I look at the loans i've taken out for just the first year I start freaking out.

And then coming on the forums and reading about the flood of new schools opening, the difficulty finding jobs (in good locations), having to do 2 years of residency now just to even be competitive for a position as a clinical pharmacist.

And then talking to my PhD and M.D. friends who will either be making a ton of money to pay off their debts + guaranteed a job, or getting paid to get their doctorate.

Before anyone does the whole "oh you have to LOVE pharmacy it's not about the money" let's be honest here. Money is important. Planning your future is important. It doesn't make sense fiscally to throw yourself into a debt when the prospects of that career path are dimming. I do love the clinical aspect of pharmacy, but now that it seems so difficult to obtain, I am asking myself whether it's worth the opportunity costs (my relationship, 160k in loans, 6 years of my life).

I suppose my question is, is anyone else feeling this way or had the thought cross their mind? how did you convince yourself that you will have a future doing what you love, if what you love is not retail? What are your opinions on PhD vs. PharmD?
Click to expand...


A Pharm.D, even though is not as good as a Phd or a M.D, is still a significant improvement comparing to a Bachelor degree, which, as you know, does not mean anything nowadays.

Yes! there is Pharmacists saturation, but you can always use your Pharm.D as a leverage for other career path. For example, if you want to get into medical school, a Pharm.D will gives you a slight advantage. If you want to get into Phd program in Pharmaceutical science, a Pharm.D also gives you the advantage.

As having said before, it is your choice to keep going into this profession or not.
 
Humper said:
A Pharm.D, even though is not as good as a Phd or a M.D, is still a significant improvement comparing to a Bachelor degree, which, as you know, does not mean anything nowadays.

Yes! there is Pharmacists saturation, but you can always use your Pharm.D as a leverage for other career path. For example, if you want to get into medical school, a Pharm.D will gives you a slight advantage. If you want to get into Phd program in Pharmaceutical science, a Pharm.D also gives you the advantage.
Click to expand...
What are these advantages you speak of?

I mean let's be real, is it REALLY worth wasting 3/4 years in school though to use your PharmD to move on a stable career?

Sounds like a worthless detour if you ask me....
 
desklamp said:
Anyone else getting cold feet the months before pharm school starts? Everytime I look at the loans i've taken out for just the first year I start freaking out.

And then coming on the forums and reading about the flood of new schools opening, the difficulty finding jobs (in good locations), having to do 2 years of residency now just to even be competitive for a position as a clinical pharmacist.

And then talking to my PhD and M.D. friends who will either be making a ton of money to pay off their debts + guaranteed a job, or getting paid to get their doctorate.

Before anyone does the whole "oh you have to LOVE pharmacy it's not about the money" let's be honest here. Money is important. Planning your future is important. It doesn't make sense fiscally to throw yourself into a debt when the prospects of that career path are dimming. I do love the clinical aspect of pharmacy, but now that it seems so difficult to obtain, I am asking myself whether it's worth the opportunity costs (my relationship, 160k in loans, 6 years of my life).

I suppose my question is, is anyone else feeling this way or had the thought cross their mind? how did you convince yourself that you will have a future doing what you love, if what you love is not retail? What are your opinions on PhD vs. PharmD?
Click to expand...
I don't think you've fully checked out all the avenues that a Pharm.D. can open up for you.

There are hundreds of branches that shoot from the general area "PHARMACY".

There are hundreds of shoots that shoot out of the branches off of "PHARMACY".

And even if you think it's hopeless to find a "stable" job with a Pharm.D., you can be inventive to get yourself a job without fully utilizing all your Pharm.D. education.

As far as getting a Ph.D. or MPH afterwards, it's sometimes the only choice people have if they aren't able to find jobs with the Pharm.D. in the coming future. That's the sad truth (especially if they don't want to work in the rural areas...).

OP: like it or not, you speak as if you're in too deep with the program, and the Fall semester hasn't started. You got some time to either back out of the whole pharmacy area and look elsewhere for happiness and financial stability, or stick with it and hope that you will end up with a job that pays well and makes you happy.
 
ShadowRX said:
There are hundreds of branches that shoot from the general area "PHARMACY".

There are hundreds of shoots that shoot out of the branches off of "PHARMACY".
Click to expand...

I know there are many, but not that many. Please share these branches and shoots. 😕 The most extensive list I've seen is that Pfizer guide.

Even if there are many, it doesn't really mean anything when those jobs don't really need that big of a workforce. Aren't most positions in hospitals and community pharmacies? I would also assume that a lot of these specialities are geographically specific, another possible drawback.

Also, what do you feel about overspecialization (i.e., PGY2 and beyond)? I was hoping that more people would jump on this topic when Passion4Sci mentioned it a few days back.
 
Project2015 said:
I know there are many, but not that many. Please share these branches and shoots. 😕 The most extensive list I've seen is that Pfizer guide.

Even if there are many, it doesn't really mean anything when those jobs don't really need that big of a workforce. Aren't most positions in hospitals and community pharmacies? I would also assume that a lot of these specialities are geographically specific, another possible drawback.

Also, what do you feel about overspecialization (i.e., PGY2 and beyond)? I was hoping that more people would jump on this topic when Passion4Sci mentioned it a few days back.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't think OP has looked at that Pfizer guide. That's what I was alluring to. Sorry if I misled about branches and shoots of jobs.
 
ShadowRX said:
Yeah, I don't think OP has looked at that Pfizer guide. That's what I was alluring to. Sorry if I misled about branches and shoots of jobs.
Click to expand...

heh I have seen guides similar to the one you are talking about, and I'm fully aware of course, that there are many things you can do with a PharmD like working at the CDC, or in industry.

The issue isn't really job security. It's more that all I really would want out of the 160K spent, is to be able to work in a clinical environment, with patients and doctors. However (and I don't know if it's true or not) the things I've read lead me to believe that, even investing time into a residency (which are also difficult to obtain), it is still difficult to find a position as a clinical pharmacist because that position is sparse due to not adding direct income to the hospital and slow turnover rates.

While you can be a director at a pharmaceutical company, a medical writer, or work in public health with a PharmD, you can also do all those things with a degree like an MPH, or PhD which would be infinitely cheaper :/.
 
nicolemsm said:
I mean let's be real, is it REALLY worth wasting 3/4 years in school though to use your PharmD to move on a stable career?

Sounds like a worthless detour if you ask me....
Click to expand...

Seriously - maybe 3/4 years is tolerable, but 3/4 years + the cost of tuition? That's nuts. Haha, you'd also, most likely, be paying interest on your pharmacy tuition.

Yeah, a lot of people want to do a residency after pharmacy school, but their load of debt (which is increasing and increasing...) causes them to go into retail. I can understand why.
 
phathead said:
Not all MDs make the big bucks. Nor do PhDs.

Something to keep in mind 😉
Click to expand...

oddly enough, the med school at my pharm school university costs less in tuition.

i just don't want to be in debt for the rest of my life :'(
 
desklamp said:
oddly enough, the med school at my pharm school university costs less in tuition.

i just don't want to be in debt for the rest of my life :'(
Click to expand...

It won't bet that bad. You'll be making, at least, 85k or so to start out with. My wife and I agreed that for at least 3-4 years our style of living won't change at all. Since we can live comfortably right now off of maybe 35k a year, we could put upwards of 50k a year towards debt.

Thats our plan at least
 
I know how you feel, and I think recognizing that the money issue makes you anxious shows that you're far ahead of so many people I know who went into nearly six figure of debt for terminal master's degrees (not sure what my old roomie plans to do with a master's in humanities from an upper crust college, but that's her business). I've only made a dent in starting pre-reqs and am leaving my job to finish them up faster and apply to pharm school. I am constantly second guessing myself. I always want to run for the hills, but the hills are pretty bleak.

Try not to get cowed by the debt load and do the best that you can with the anxiety. A friend of my coworker's is graduating from UMD with over $250K in debt, which is absolutely insane to me. But if I ended up not getting into my state school, I'm sure I'll have to figure out how to finance the 4 years or do something totally different.
 
phathead said:
It won't bet that bad. You'll be making, at least, 85k or so to start out with. My wife and I agreed that for at least 3-4 years our style of living won't change at all. Since we can live comfortably right now off of maybe 35k a year, we could put upwards of 50k a year towards debt.

Thats our plan at least
Click to expand...

This is my wife and I's plan as well. Heck even living off 35K a year will be close to double what we have been living off of 😀
 
If you still have doubts, NOW is the time to maybe take a year off and look at other fields, etc. Once you start school and take out those loans, there's no turning back because you will have buried yourself in loans. Think hard and if there is the SLIGHTEST doubt that you might want something else, you should take some time off to weigh your options. Its better to take the time to figure out what you want than to get yourself into lots of debt then say you wanna do something else and being unhappy....
 
If you are worried about paying back loans and finding a job as a pharmacist you might want to take a look into being an Army Pharmacist. Or any brnach for that matter, but I have only looked into the Army.

http://www.goarmy.com/amedd/m_service/corps_benefits.jsp

They have a loan repayment program that pays up to $120k in loans for you. Being in the military would teach leadership skills and help build valuable experience. It doesn't hurt on a resume either. The downside is that you'll most likely earn less than you would in the civilian sector, you'll be in the military and will possibly have to deploy or be assigned oconus.

Not trying to recruit, but just know that there are options out there that can help with loans with a commitment.
 
I've worked towards my PhD for the past two years and just quit to pursue a PharmD. I literally JUST quit; my last day was last Monday. There are a lot of things I wish I knew before I started grad school. When I started I knew that grad school is a great gig. You get PAID to get an advanced degree and for the most part you can guarantee yourself a job in the 50-65k range when you finish.

What I learned while in grad school is that the nature of the work is very defeating. Some days I would come home after 16 hour work days and feel like I literally accomplished nothing. The reason I left was because you don't always get a return on the hard work you invest. A lot of it relies on...
(1)How many hours you put into the lab
(2)Your project
(3)Your mentor
Sometimes experiments simply don't work, and you may find yourself pursuing a dead end for months or years at a time. This is simply the nature of research. It's like going out and buying a ship, a compass, a crew, hiring some crazy guy with a treasure map, and sailing across the world in search for treasure. You can put in a lot of prep work and do all your planning but you might get to the X on the map... and nothing is there. This doesn't mean that your work was for nothing... but it's depressing to think that a number of very intelligent, talented scientists graduate by writing a 'progress-towards-the-total-synthesis-of-some-molecule' thesis. In the end if you work hard you will get a pHd and find a job, but I struggled for quite a while before I accepted the fact that there is no way I can spend the rest of my life banging my head against a wall. Not to mention every successful person I have ever worked with stayed in for a minimum of 60 hours a week, and at some point I would like to have a family. I would consider myself fairly successful in grad school, I walked away with 4 publications, but I literally drove myself to insanity several times. You would have to pay me a lot more than 22k+PhD to go back to grad school.
 
PharmDWanabe said:
I've worked towards my PhD for the past two years and just quit to pursue a PharmD. I literally JUST quit; my last day was last Monday. There are a lot of things I wish I knew before I started grad school. When I started I knew that grad school is a great gig. You get PAID to get an advanced degree and for the most part you can guarantee yourself a job in the 50-65k range when you finish.

What I learned while in grad school is that the nature of the work is very defeating. Some days I would come home after 16 hour work days and feel like I literally accomplished nothing. The reason I left was because you don't always get a return on the hard work you invest. A lot of it relies on...
(1)How many hours you put into the lab
(2)Your project
(3)Your mentor
Sometimes experiments simply don't work, and you may find yourself pursuing a dead end for months or years at a time. This is simply the nature of research. It's like going out and buying a ship, a compass, a crew, hiring some crazy guy with a treasure map, and sailing across the world in search for treasure. You can put in a lot of prep work and do all your planning but you might get to the X on the map... and nothing is there. This doesn't mean that your work was for nothing... but it's depressing to think that a number of very intelligent, talented scientists graduate by writing a 'progress-towards-the-total-synthesis-of-some-molecule' thesis. In the end if you work hard you will get a pHd and find a job, but I struggled for quite a while before I accepted the fact that there is no way I can spend the rest of my life banging my head against a wall. Not to mention every successful person I have ever worked with stayed in for a minimum of 60 hours a week, and at some point I would like to have a family. I would consider myself fairly successful in grad school, I walked away with 4 publications, but I literally drove myself to insanity several times. You would have to pay me a lot more than 22k+PhD to go back to grad school.
Click to expand...

Very well written.....this is the reason I went the teaching route, never did like the frustration of research. Amazing that you were able to get 4 publications in just a few years....I didn't get any publications in graduate school (not for lack of trying) and only one publication in my research postdoc.....
 
phathead said:
Not all MDs make the big bucks. Nor do PhDs.

Something to keep in mind 😉
Click to expand...

MDs do make more money, but they work more hours. The hourly rate of a pharmacist is about the same as a primary care physician. The latter also had to do an 80 hr a week residency for at least 3 years. Most attendings work 50 hrs, and the surgeons work over 60 hrs.

The advantage of the MD is in the broader array of options available to you. For instance, if you only care about making big bucks, you can be an orthopedic spine surgeon and rake in $600k to several million. If you're a do-gooder, you can work for FQHC and still make over $100k serving the poorest of poor. You can do research, you can teach (and have clinic one day a week), you can work in public policy or for insurance companies, you can do outpatient or inpatient (hospitalist) or a mix of both. You're not stuck between between either retail or hospital.
 
Last edited:
Project2015 said:
Whaaaat? ShadowRX to the rescue please! 😀
Click to expand...

Let's be realistic. About 65% go into retail and 25% into clinical. That leaves 10%, some of them end up doing something completely unrelated or go teach at a pharmacy school among other more creative but few in number alternatives.
 
Passion4Sci said:
Ah!

What alternatives do you have in mind if the overall battlefield hasn't changed much?
Click to expand...

I don't know exactly... It's up in the air! I love pharmacy but there are so many other medical avenues Ive had yet to explore. I've also grown very fond of older individuals from y hospice volunteering so maybe geriatrics. Everyone says you can specialize in pharmacy for geriatrics, but at what point does one overspecialize... I'm just a big ball of confusion as to where I want to head(which is to be expected at my age😛)
 
nicolemsm said:
I don't know exactly... It's up in the air! I love pharmacy but there are so many other medical avenues Ive had yet to explore. I've also grown very fond of older individuals from y hospice volunteering so maybe geriatrics. Everyone says you can specialize in pharmacy for geriatrics, but at what point does one overspecialize... I'm just a big ball of confusion as to where I want to head(which is to be expected at my age😛)
Click to expand...

I certainly was. I wanted to be a clinical psychologist and ended up on the wrong end of insurgents' firearms. Never can tell where life will take you...
 
womp said:
Let's be realistic. About 65% go into retail and 25% into clinical. That leaves 10%, some of them end up doing something completely unrelated or go teach at a pharmacy school among other more creative but few in number alternatives.
Click to expand...

I really, really doubt that number is that high
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

WildWing
[Announcement] Virtual Pharmacy School Fair Sept 18 & 19
Replies
0
Views
1K
WildWing
WildWing
WildWing
[Announcement] Pharmacy School Virtual Fair
Replies
0
Views
887
WildWing
WildWing
M
Evening Pharmacy School Program?
Replies
2
Views
3K
RxPreceptor
RxPreceptor
D
  • Question Question
Best option for letter of recommendation for pharmacy school admission?
Replies
10
Views
4K
PharmtoCS
P
Mr.Smile12
[AJPE] Should pharmacy schools continue to participate in USNews & World Report rankings?
Replies
0
Views
915
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
Top