ITT: Becoming a Doctor for the money... why the hell not?

Aimless1990 said:

I analyzed quite a few topics on these splendid forums and found Medicine and Money to go hand in hand. However, SDNers frequently suggest that one should go into MBA/Business/Baller if they want to make money. Here's what I realistically think of the situation, I knnow most of you will probably disagree (even though inside, you know I'm right 😎)

Ok so lets look at the number of years it takes to become a doctor. Both as a USMG and an IMG.

USMG
1. 3-4 years of UG (depending on the number of hours taken per sem)
+
2. 4 Yrs Med School
+
3. 3-5 Yrs Residency

10-13 Years total until you make $160,000-$500,000 (in super competitive specialities)


IMG
1. 0-2 Years of UG (there are schools out there who take you straight out of high school)
+
2. 4-5.5 Years Medical school (aka M.B,B.S in some countries)
+
3. 3-5 Years of Residency

7-12 Years total until you make $160,000-??? (since most IMGs end up in Primary Care, we can realistically say that $160,000 is a good amount. There are IMGs who end up in Surgery and Anesthesia and make $250,000 or more... though this is rare)

Now that we have to compare these so called "low salaries" to the national Median. Don't take my word for it, look at this wikipedia article which directly cites the US Census Bureau.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

I didn't look through the whole article but there's lots of info on there. I did discover, however, that the Median US household income is about $52,029 if you look at the income by state chart near the end of the article.

Please remember that Median income is different from Mean (Average) income and is often more reliable data as well. The mean income, according to this article (and I quote)

Overall, the mean household income in the United States, according to the US Census Bureau 2004 Economic Survey, was $60,528, or $17,210 (39.73%) higher than the median household income.[59]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Either way, a GP doctor makes about 3 times as much as the US Median and 2.64 times that of the US Mean.

Now if you're hoping to make over $250,000 "doing something else" then you should look at the statistics before taking a blind leap of faith. A measly 1.5% of the population makes over $250,000 dollars a year. With that said, you have a better chance of matching into something like Radiology, Plastic Surgery or some other lucrative branch. Given that there are multiple "lifestyle" specialties in medicine, your chances of making over $250,000 in medicine are exponentially higher than your chances doing something else.

Now, let's look at some of the frequently suggested, alternative professions which seemingly make more money with less BS, stress, etc.

1. Business
In order to start a business, you need initially funding for your start up cost. (I apologize for not knowing the proper business terminology for this, English isn't my first language) and unless you have a huge inheritance fund, you're going to be pulling in that money from your income. With that said, you could become a Doctor and save up for a few years and then start a business. With other professions which pay well below $100,000, it would take much longer to save up. Doctors can open up their own hospitals if they feel like making more money.

Also, businesses involve a lot of risk and a LOT of stress. If you think being a doctor is tough, ask a business owner how bad they have it. Businesses don't really have much financial security and I know plenty of business owners who suffered massive losses and are now back to square one; it happens all the time. Most businesses also DON'T make millions of dollars per year and are at the constant risk of complete failure. You don't have to study business to run a business.

2. Finance (Investment Banking, Private Equity, Hedge Funds, Venture Capital)

I see this one all the time. "Go into IBanking for the money" is a tired phrase on these forums. To get into this Industry, you not only have to be attending a "target school" but you must ALSO be near the top of your class. The game doesn't end there however. Most Investment Bankers start out with a base pay of around $60,000 to $80,000 with a year end bonus of $0-$60,000 which puts the total pay at around $150,000. But then comes that fact that ALL finance jobs have heavy hours. Investment Bankers in general, work about 80-100 hours per week. In that case, what's wrong with working the same amount as a doctor and making more?

People say "become a Vice President or a Managing Director and make Millions per year." I laugh at these silly suggestions all the time; if you can become a Vice President, then why can't you become a Cheif Doctor at a hospital as well and make the same amount? 8 in 10 Investment Bankers leave the field after 2-3 years. Most bankers frankly suck and are asked not to return. Only the BEST of the best make it to VP and MD level. Let me put this into perspective for you. You're more likely to match into Dermatology than you are to make it to VP level. Even if by some amazing Miracle, you do make it to VP, you still have to deal with the extreme hours and stress, plus New York rent ain't pretty. Try having a family life working in Finance.

Then we have things like Hedge Funds and Private Equity. These fields are reserved to people who are mathematically gifted (and no, I don't mean getting an A in algebra, I'm taking PhD Genius) AND they must first prove themselves in I Banking.

3. Dentistry
This one is interesting. Dentistry USED to be a very good profession, but with the recent "Dental Corporations" which have sprung up, mom and pop shops are starting to lose customers in the masses. Dentistry is also just like a business in that you have a chance of making very little cash (for the amount you put into Dental School)

4. Law
Law School is just as hard as Medical school and you must attend the BAR exam every time you feel like moving. Also, a VERY VERY small percentage of lawyers make it to top firms, and out of that, a VERY VERY small percentage make partner. Law is also more stressful and less secure the Medical School. Law is quickly becoming saturated with all the law schools opening up these days.

5. Consulting
Have fun traveling all day and making much less than the average Doctor. That's all I have to save about that.

In the end, it seems like even after working for 10-15 years in a Field (the same amount of time it takes to become a practicing doc) you still won't make as much as a regular physician.

With all this said, I don't see why anyone who reads this topic should consider doing something else when Medicine is clearly the golden profession for making money.

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Aimless1990 said:

3. Dentistry
This one is interesting. Dentistry USED to be a very good profession, but with the recent "Dental Corporations" which have sprung up, mom and pop shops are starting to lose customers in the masses. Dentistry is also just like a business in that you have a chance of making very little cash (for the amount you put into Dental School)

Click to expand...

Aimless1990 said:

I analyzed quite a few topics on these splendid forums and found Medicine and Money to go hand in hand. However, SDNers frequently suggest that one should go into MBA/Business/Baller if they want to make money. Here's what I realistically think of the situation, I knnow most of you will probably disagree (even though inside, you know I'm right 😎)

Ok so lets look at the number of years it takes to become a doctor. Both as a USMG and an IMG.

USMG
1. 3-4 years of UG (depending on the number of hours taken per sem)
+
2. 4 Yrs Med School
+
3. 3-5 Yrs Residency

10-13 Years total until you make $160,000-$500,000 (in super competitive specialities)


IMG
1. 0-2 Years of UG (there are schools out there who take you straight out of high school)
+
2. 4-5.5 Years Medical school (aka M.B,B.S in some countries)
+
3. 3-5 Years of Residency

7-12 Years total until you make $160,000-??? (since most IMGs end up in Primary Care, we can realistically say that $160,000 is a good amount. There are IMGs who end up in Surgery and Anesthesia and make $250,000 or more... though this is rare)

Now that we have to compare these so called "low salaries" to the national Median. Don't take my word for it, look at this wikipedia article which directly cites the US Census Bureau.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

I didn't look through the whole article but there's lots of info on there. I did discover, however, that the Median US household income is about $52,029 if you look at the income by state chart near the end of the article.

Please remember that Median income is different from Mean (Average) income and is often more reliable data as well. The mean income, according to this article (and I quote)

Overall, the mean household income in the United States, according to the US Census Bureau 2004 Economic Survey, was $60,528, or $17,210 (39.73%) higher than the median household income.[59]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Either way, a GP doctor makes about 3 times as much as the US Median and 2.64 times that of the US Mean.

Now if you're hoping to make over $250,000 "doing something else" then you should look at the statistics before taking a blind leap of faith. A measly 1.5% of the population makes over $250,000 dollars a year. With that said, you have a better chance of matching into something like Radiology, Plastic Surgery or some other lucrative branch. Given that there are multiple "lifestyle" specialties in medicine, your chances of making over $250,000 in medicine are exponentially higher than your chances doing something else.

Now, let's look at some of the frequently suggested, alternative professions which seemingly make more money with less BS, stress, etc.

1. Business
In order to start a business, you need initially funding for your start up cost. (I apologize for not knowing the proper business terminology for this, English isn't my first language) and unless you have a huge inheritance fund, you're going to be pulling in that money from your income. With that said, you could become a Doctor and save up for a few years and then start a business. With other professions which pay well below $100,000, it would take much longer to save up. Doctors can open up their own hospitals if they feel like making more money.

Also, businesses involve a lot of risk and a LOT of stress. If you think being a doctor is tough, ask a business owner how bad they have it. Businesses don't really have much financial security and I know plenty of business owners who suffered massive losses and are now back to square one; it happens all the time. Most businesses also DON'T make millions of dollars per year and are at the constant risk of complete failure. You don't have to study business to run a business.

2. Finance (Investment Banking, Private Equity, Hedge Funds, Venture Capital)

I see this one all the time. "Go into IBanking for the money" is a tired phrase on these forums. To get into this Industry, you not only have to be attending a "target school" but you must ALSO be near the top of your class. The game doesn't end there however. Most Investment Bankers start out with a base pay of around $60,000 to $80,000 with a year end bonus of $0-$60,000 which puts the total pay at around $150,000. But then comes that fact that ALL finance jobs have heavy hours. Investment Bankers in general, work about 80-100 hours per week. In that case, what's wrong with working the same amount as a doctor and making more?

People say "become a Vice President or a Managing Director and make Millions per year." I laugh at these silly suggestions all the time; if you can become a Vice President, then why can't you become a Cheif Doctor at a hospital as well and make the same amount? 8 in 10 Investment Bankers leave the field after 2-3 years. Most bankers frankly suck and are asked not to return. Only the BEST of the best make it to VP and MD level. Let me put this into perspective for you. You're more likely to match into Dermatology than you are to make it to VP level. Even if by some amazing Miracle, you do make it to VP, you still have to deal with the extreme hours and stress, plus New York rent ain't pretty. Try having a family life working in Finance.

Then we have things like Hedge Funds and Private Equity. These fields are reserved to people who are mathematically gifted (and no, I don't mean getting an A in algebra, I'm taking PhD Genius) AND they must first prove themselves in I Banking.

3. Dentistry
This one is interesting. Dentistry USED to be a very good profession, but with the recent "Dental Corporations" which have sprung up, mom and pop shops are starting to lose customers in the masses. Dentistry is also just like a business in that you have a chance of making very little cash (for the amount you put into Dental School)

4. Law
Law School is just as hard as Medical school and you must attend the BAR exam every time you feel like moving. Also, a VERY VERY small percentage of lawyers make it to top firms, and out of that, a VERY VERY small percentage make partner. Law is also more stressful and less secure the Medical School. Law is quickly becoming saturated with all the law schools opening up these days.

5. Consulting
Have fun traveling all day and making much less than the average Doctor. That's all I have to save about that.

In the end, it seems like even after working for 10-15 years in a Field (the same amount of time it takes to become a practicing doc) you still won't make as much as a regular physician.

With all this said, I don't see why anyone who reads this topic should consider doing something else when Medicine is clearly the golden profession for making money.

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theWUbear said:

i want cookies!!

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mmmcdowe said:

You didn't factor in debt accumulation, particularly if you desire to get married before becoming an attending.

Also, withholding from gratification is a strong trait within the medical community. Your argument is the equivalent of saying, if you don't eat that cookie I'll give you two cookies when I come back in an hour. That's a long time to wait for an extra cookie. We can see the long term benefit and look forward to that extra cookie, but most people would rather have one cookie now than twice as much in a long time. You could make a similar argument in terms of the work it takes to get that extra cookie. I'm sure someone with more business acumen and less interest in pastries will give you a strong counter argument. However, not many doctors open up hospitals as a business strategy. And the straight from high school to MD strategy really isn't that applicable to the US, nor is the even 2 year idea. A few schools still take students without bachelors degrees, true, but it isn't really applicable to most students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9UfY_94sKU

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Aimless1990 said:

I didn't look through the whole article but there's lots of info on there. I did discover, however, that the Median US household income is about $52,029 if you look at the income by state chart near the end of the article.

Please remember that Median income is different from Mean (Average) income and is often more reliable data as well. The mean income, according to this article (and I quote)

Overall, the mean household income in the United States, according to the US Census Bureau 2004 Economic Survey, was $60,528, or $17,210 (39.73%) higher than the median household income.[59]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Either way, a GP doctor makes about 3 times as much as the US Median and 2.64 times that of the US Mean.

Click to expand...

1. Business
In order to start a business, you need initially funding for your start up cost.

Click to expand...

Aimless1990 said:

3. Dentistry
This one is interesting. Dentistry USED to be a very good profession, but with the recent "Dental Corporations" which have sprung up, mom and pop shops are starting to lose customers in the masses. Dentistry is also just like a business in that you have a chance of making very little cash (for the amount you put into Dental School)

Sorry but I have to disagree with this point. My best friend uncle is a coowner of 8 comfort dentals and all of his partners are dentists. The franchise has founded ~70 practices and he pulls in well over 1 million a year. What he does is start up a practice, get patients, gets other dentists to buy in, then basically does administrative duties. A prospective partner dentist usually pays a lower amount to become a partner in the practice compared to buying into a private, non-corporate practice, but has to pay a 20% of the revenue back to comfort dental. However the benefits received must be worth the money if so many dentists are flocking to places like comfort and perfect teeth. Simply put group practice reduces the number of patients, hours, and can make your life more enjoyable. Plus you don't have to worry about hiring associates who will leave after a couple years to found their own practices. You bring in people you know will be there awhile and, being partners, will have a vested interest in the company succeeding.

I agree that these franchises and corporations are destroying the mom and pop dentistry practices like wal-mart destroyed the mom and pop businesses. But considering the success of these franchises and corporations I would say many people don't care about who their dentist is if they can get their teeth just as clean for less money. Im not ashamed to say I would rather pay less money for the same procedure if the work done was of equal quality.

I also agree that it is just a business what you get what you put into it. But the median annual wages of salaried general dentists $142,870 (25th percentile is ~117,000 which is still very good money) http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm#earnings.
This is much more that you're likely to make in a small business, being that many small businesses fail.

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serenade said:

Medicine is a stable career choice. Money like in all careers is an aspect of choosing that career. However if its the leading or best reason then you'll be a very unhappy person. It all comes down to the fact that money doesn't buy happiness.

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BBender716 said:

Perhaps the worst of the 5 arguments you've made. I went to a non-target school. I got interviews and one job offer... during the stock market crash two years ago. It's possible and does occur.

Also, what you fail to realize about many of the business options you've listed above is that when people enter these fields out of undergrad, many of them understand they aren't going to remain "consultants" or "i-bankers" for the rest of their lives because of the hours and lifestyle involved. They enter these fields because they pay a crapload and serve as some of the best resume boosters, networking connections, and capital building positions imaginable. The reason so many don't make it to VP/MD status is because a lot of people simply don't want to.

You work 3-4 years in any of these fields, then you get an executive MBA/MS Finance/advanced business degree at a Top 10 business school and go on to work in a more "long-sighted" career (PE, hedge funds, independent asset management, etc.) where you make a ridiculous amount of money.

That is my retort at least to your analysis of i-banking and consulting. 🙄

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Aimless1990 said:

Then please tell us how you managed to do this. Because as far as I know, no target school means no access to recruiters. Please tell us exactly how you managed to do this seemingly impossible task. Did your parents/guardians have huge connections? Did you travel to NYC? Did you sleep in front of a Bulge Bracket bank? If you received offers at smaller boutiques, that honestly doesn't really count since the pay is much, much lower than that of a BB and the exit opps are far less.

The follow site lists MBA programs according to Median income with the London School of Business topping the scale at $120,000. This is hardly what I'd call "ridiculous amounts of money."

http://officialmbaguide.org/top40.php?rnk=salary

As I already mentioned, unless you are *extremely* proficient in Math, you probably won't last in Hedge Funding. Even top MBA grads don't break into Private Equity very often because the doors are so tightly shut and you have to have a combination of personality, connections and just plain luck. We're trying to compare to something realistic here. You can't just walk into any Top MBA without a tremendously good resume and GMAT score. It's like saying "just go to an acting school and you'll be the next Tom Cruise" sorry, but it probably won't happen.

These types of "I know a person who X" will ALWAYS come up. This is precisely why I listed relevant data to back up my claim. If you want data on Investment Banking, look at www.mergersandinquisitions.com. The guy who runs the site is a guy I went to high school with, and he went to Standford and worked at a Bulge Bank (I think it was Merril Lynch) for a few years. Even a guy who's been IN the industry and knows the ins and outs says its next to impossible to get in without attending a Target.

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BBender716 said:

I'm counting down until Law2Doc comes in here and pwns the crap out of this topic for the 100th time.

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mmmcdowe said:

You didn't factor in debt accumulation, particularly if you desire to get married before becoming an attending.

Also, withholding from gratification is a strong trait within the medical community. Your argument is the equivalent of saying, if you don't eat that cookie I'll give you two cookies when I come back in an hour. That's a long time to wait for an extra cookie. We can see the long term benefit and look forward to that extra cookie, but most people would rather have one cookie now than twice as much in a long time. You could make a similar argument in terms of the work it takes to get that extra cookie. I'm sure someone with more business acumen and less interest in pastries will give you a strong counter argument. However, not many doctors open up hospitals as a business strategy. And the straight from high school to MD strategy really isn't that applicable to the US, nor is the even 2 year idea. A few schools still take students without bachelors degrees, true, but it isn't really applicable to most students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9UfY_94sKU

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mmmcdowe said:

Ah but how do you know that you will like that type of cookie? I don't like all type of cookies. I hate gingersnaps, what if I go through eight years of training for gingersnaps? Also, even if I like gingersnaps are 100 gingersnaps worth waiting 8 years for when I can have 60 gingersnaps now per year throughout? To some, yes. To others, they hate gingersnaps like me anyways.

The movie, by the way, was for humor and had nothing to do with me making a point. I am not sure I even follow your talky talk.

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mikethomp said:

Average indebtedness is in the $100,000's. Next insurance rates KILL. They take away a good proportion of your income if you choose to have it. If you choose not to have it you have to maintain an escrow account that usually is around the 250,000 dollar mark. So lets see you come out of school with about $500,000 worth of debt as soon as you start to make money (debt from school + escrow account). Also, did I forget you have to pay your employees (nurses etc), rent, taxes!! Its not all sunshine and daisy's.

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circulus vitios said:

Salary figures include malpractice premiums and overhead.

Go into medicine for the money. There aren't any other ways to make a guaranteed 6 figures a year other than dentistry and pharmacy.

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Cleavername said:

BMW > Audi

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TooMuchResearch said:

Finish high school. Drive for UPS at $75k per year. Invest at least 50% net income for 10 years. Live the 40-80 years doing whatever you want.

or

Go to college and medical school. Pay off your debt and invest 80% of your net income. Retire a few years later than in the UPS scenario with the same amount of money (having worked much harder with less free time). Do whatever you want for the next 35-70 years.

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circulus vitios said:

Salary figures include malpractice premiums and overhead.

Go into medicine for the money. There aren't any other ways to make a guaranteed 6 figures a year other than dentistry and pharmacy.

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circulus vitios said:

So it is true that medical students aren't good at math or finance or economics.

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shouldvestudied said:

Shhhhhh.

Stop sharing this info with the sheeple. They might start to catch on.

The OP is spot on about pretty much everything except Dentistry. But his small mistake in that regard does not diminish the rest of his post. Honestly, medicine pays well. It pays really well. Especially when compared to the salary potential for non-Ivy students.

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TooMuchResearch said:

No, it isn't.

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circulus vitios said:

1. You can't just "get a job driving for UPS." Everyone wants to drive trucks. You work your way up from sorting packages. It takes something like 10 years on average. It's physically intense and tends to kill your knees jumping in and out of a truck for 8 or more hours a day.

2. $75k/year turns into $60k/year. Half of that is $30k/year. Have fun living on $30k/year for 10 years. I hope you never want to own a house or buy a new car.

3. $30k/year additions for 10 years at an unrealistic 10% return gives you a bit under $600k. $600k isn't enough to retire on today and it sure as hell won't be enough to retire on 10 years from now or '40-80' years from now. You might want to check out this little thing called inflation.

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shouldvestudied said:

Shhhhhh.

Stop sharing this info with the sheeple. They might start to catch on.

The OP is spot on about pretty much everything except Dentistry. But his small mistake in that regard does not diminish the rest of his post. Honestly, medicine pays well. It pays really well. Especially when compared to the salary potential for non-Ivy students.

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PremedGunner said:

medicine is a much safer bet then business if you want sustainable heaps of cash. you really have to be committed. i wonder if theres an sbn website for business.

it would be pretty sweet to be the ceo of goldman sachs, though.

you bmw drivers disgust me. toyota corollas all the way!

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Aimless1990 said:

Notice how I said that all Businesses need initial money to start up. You're assuming that "just starting a business" is something you can do overnight.

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