Any thoughts?
why is lecom so cheap?
- Thread starter mike1984
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2009
- Messages
- 418
- Reaction score
- 1
they don't like money?
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2010
- Messages
- 10
- Reaction score
- 0
It is possible that LECOM is so cheap because they do not pay hospitals to take on students for 3rd and 4th year rotations. I don't really know too much about this, but that was my guess when I was deciding whether to accept my place at LECOM B
If that is the case, are their rotation sites no good?
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2007
- Messages
- 89
- Reaction score
- 1
I can't really speak for their rotation sites, except that there are plenty of core clinical site opportunities.
LECOM is likely cheaper than most because they enroll many more students than the average program. They have added PBL, Independent Learning Pathway, and a branch campus that is strictly PBL. From a cost standpoint, I think that they can charge less and still make a decent revenue with their number of students.
Check out the school comparisons here: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2011cib/2011cib-whole.pdf
LECOM is likely cheaper than most because they enroll many more students than the average program. They have added PBL, Independent Learning Pathway, and a branch campus that is strictly PBL. From a cost standpoint, I think that they can charge less and still make a decent revenue with their number of students.
Check out the school comparisons here: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2011cib/2011cib-whole.pdf
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2010
- Messages
- 10
- Reaction score
- 0
From what I've come to understand is that rotation sites are very flexible (I don't really know too much about individual sites) because of this. You have more room to chose where you want to go and to get certain sites approved. It seems that going to either campus, but especially to Bradenton, that a lot of the responsibility of obtaining good rotation falls on you rather than the school. You could end up somewhere great if you work really hard to find a good site, or you could end up screwed. Like I said, I don't really know too much about it, but this is something that I factored into my decision.
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 4,723
- Reaction score
- 2,695
LECOM is so cheap because it is a private school run by an extremely saavy family - the Ferretti's. They are great money managers. They also have the largest enrollment of any medical school in the country so you figure each student pays out 25,000/ yr for 4 years.
Do the math (these are all approximations of course)
Erie campus 250 med students/ 150 pharm students/ 100 post bacc students
Bradenton Campus 200 med students
Seton Hall Campus 200 med students
800 students @ 25,000/yr = 20,000,000
100 post bacc @ 10,000/yr = 10,000,000
Total approx 30,000,000 dollars a year to run the school and pay the faculty.
Plus the last two years you are there (not there on rotations) the school still gets paid while the rotations don't.
They don't need to charge any more than they do. Plus they are non-proft entitity on top of everything else.
Do the math (these are all approximations of course)
Erie campus 250 med students/ 150 pharm students/ 100 post bacc students
Bradenton Campus 200 med students
Seton Hall Campus 200 med students
800 students @ 25,000/yr = 20,000,000
100 post bacc @ 10,000/yr = 10,000,000
Total approx 30,000,000 dollars a year to run the school and pay the faculty.
Plus the last two years you are there (not there on rotations) the school still gets paid while the rotations don't.
They don't need to charge any more than they do. Plus they are non-proft entitity on top of everything else.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,571
- Reaction score
- 128
After my interview at LECOM-B, it was very clear why the tuition is so low... First, I want to point out that this is my opinion only and I am just stating my observations/feelings...
Seeing PBL in action, and realizing that this is really the only main learning path they have at this campus, I could tell that the students really have to teach themselves more so than most med schools... Basically, you have to ask yourself, what ARE you really paying for? There are really no classes, which means there are less professors... There is really no traditional anatomy lab, so no fees for maintenance there... You basically pay tuition to keep the lights on in the building Oh, and for all of those cameras. Lol.
The students buy their own books, and this is their only tool for learning. Also, time is money, so the professors are not putting in the normal time to make powerpoints for their classes and such, so they use their time to teach instead. This is a good point for LECOM though, but it also is the reason why they don't need so many faculty to teach...
Seeing PBL in action, and realizing that this is really the only main learning path they have at this campus, I could tell that the students really have to teach themselves more so than most med schools... Basically, you have to ask yourself, what ARE you really paying for? There are really no classes, which means there are less professors... There is really no traditional anatomy lab, so no fees for maintenance there... You basically pay tuition to keep the lights on in the building Oh, and for all of those cameras. Lol.
The students buy their own books, and this is their only tool for learning. Also, time is money, so the professors are not putting in the normal time to make powerpoints for their classes and such, so they use their time to teach instead. This is a good point for LECOM though, but it also is the reason why they don't need so many faculty to teach...
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 2,633
- Reaction score
- 405
Your opinion on why the tuition is so low doesn't make much sense when considering LECOM-Erie. The LDP is where they take the most students.
Your post comes across a bit "venomous", especially for someone who both liked and disliked things during your interview.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2008
- Messages
- 1,230
- Reaction score
- 11
That's not really true at all. The students have no real say in what sites get approved as affiliates (which is where you have to do your cores). You can request a hospital to become an affiliate but its a very difficult process to do. We do have quite a few sites this year, so you have many choices where to rotate. The only issue is that you don't know what is good and bad for sites
I do agree with this statement. It's a very stressful process to choose between sites you can't find any information about other than the hospital's website. There are no real sites out there (besides scutwork) that have reviews of certain hospitals. The problem with scutwork is that it only has reviews on residencies at hospitals and many of the reviews are very old. When it comes to electives and selectives, we can do them most anywhere but it's up to each person to get those sites.
LECOM is also cheaper because of cost saving measures in place like no food/drink outside the cafeteria. Since there is very little trash, the school can be kept clean easier so the school doesn't have to hire as many janitors. Plus the equipment and chairs/desks, etc are kept in top shape so they don't have to spend as much money on buying new supplies. The biggest reason though is LECOM doesn't pay for rotation sites.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,995
- Reaction score
- 11
She has made it pretty well known that there were both things she liked and didn't like but she wasn't too thrilled on the program. What she said is also correct, as are most of the things that are in this thread thus far.
Ways of cutting cost:
PBL pathway at Bradenton
PBL and ISP pathway at Erie
Don't pay hospitals for guaranteed rotation sites
I can't speak for erie but Bradenton is very sterile and they admitted that their no food in the building policy is largely in part to keep the building clean and have few upkeep costs.
For the money, you still get a great education though and their students are very happy with the programs they have chosen
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2008
- Messages
- 528
- Reaction score
- 6
You can't really make that statement. Remember, you are first accepted to LECOM then you are put in a pathway. Hopefully you get the pathway you want. If you don't, you either take what you have been given (possibly changing pathways later) or go elsewhere.
unless youre at lecom-b .. then you know exactly what your signing up for
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2008
- Messages
- 528
- Reaction score
- 6
True, I forgot about Bradenton (only PBL). With Erie, you can get LDP, ISP, PBL or PBL Seton Hill.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,995
- Reaction score
- 11
By program I meant attending LECOM-B/E over another school. Guess I should have said school not program. I wasn't referring to the pathway though.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 402
- Reaction score
- 9
They cut out the luxuries and from what I have heard dont pay their rotation sites.
They also have no decorations, except bradenton has alot of Clown paintings (no joke....)
They also have no decorations, except bradenton has alot of Clown paintings (no joke....)
Just a few neurotic details/numbers out of boredom
But yes most of all it would probably be because LECOM does not pay hospitals for their 3rd/4th year rotation spots.
But yes most of all it would probably be because LECOM does not pay hospitals for their 3rd/4th year rotation spots.
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2007
- Messages
- 6,370
- Reaction score
- 6
🙄 So since you want to correct cabin, I guess I should correct you both?? lol
LECOM E 250 X 4 = 1000 (approx. because we don't know how many students are in the 3yr pathway, although the CIB says the total med school enrollment is 1,094.)
Pharm 140 x 4 = 560
Post bacc 65 (assuming the post-bacc is only a year.)
1560 x 28,000 = 43,680,000
65 x 12,500 = 812,500
Total = 44.5k is what LECOM-Erie makes alone in one year when you include total enrollment.
LECOM-B = 30.2 K
LECOM-SH = 16.8k
Grand Approx total (cause LECOM-SH doesn't have 3rd or 4th years yet) = 91.5k a year between all of the schools.
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2008
- Messages
- 439
- Reaction score
- 53
Eh you're about halfway there.
For FY 2008, they pulled in $56,489,569 in tuition & application fees, up about $5 million from FY 2007. That's just the Erie campus as far as I can tell. They also had over a million in income from the wellness center, bookstore, cafeteria and the clinic. Lost about the same amount in investments (markets).
Faculty salary for FY 2008 was $21,403,994, up about $3 million from FY 2007.
With regards to "why so cheap?" it probably is due to quality business management, a broad base of customers (students) and affordable employees.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,571
- Reaction score
- 128
I was only talking about LECOM-B, mainly because I know nothing of the program at LECOM-E... I was really not trying to be rude, I stated at the beginning that this was only my opinion. Also, as DbDan pointed out, I was not as excited as I had hoped after my interview at LECOM-B, and trust me, many SDNers have heard my rants...... I did like a few things, but mostly I felt that the program was just not right for me. PBL is an acquired taste... 🙄
Well according to the post two above, we're all quite wrong ><
Either way I surrender unconditionally in this "argument" haha, arguing about statistical data on SDN is really fail imo and my true intention in "correcting" cabin was the #s issue where he said I had 35 more classmates than I actually have (technically we have 63 since 2 dropped out).
Will try to abstain from nitpicking pointless details from now on 🙁
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2007
- Messages
- 6,370
- Reaction score
- 6
Duly noted.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,226
- Reaction score
- 1,122
I will never go to med school but I am a CPA with an MBA. I got an A in Cost Accounting. 🙂
The low price structure at LECOM made me curious so I looked at LECOMs Form 990, which is the tax return non-profits must file. All Form 990s are public information. If you have a friend who is a CPA in a firm that audits non-profits its easy for you to get a copy off the web.
Based on the 990 for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2009 it is apparent that LECOM is a lean mean education machine. Between Erie and Bradenton LECOM had about 1,650 medical students, 50 post bacc students, and 900 pharmacy students. LECOMs total revenue was $60,935,189 and its expenses spread among those 2,600 students amounted to $37,915,540. That works out to be an astoundingly low cost of $14,582 per student. LECOM cleared net revenue (the equivalent of profit) of $23,019,649 or $8,853 per student!!!
.Based on the things Ive read about LECOM these financial data stem from the extremely tight ship run by the Ferettis. The faculty only teaches and they teach or prepare to teach all the time. There is no research. LECOM wont let students eat in the class rooms because the administration doesnt want to clean up after them. The occupancy costs in Erie and Bradenton are dirt cheap. LECOM has figured out a way to get its students clinical rotations for free. This is medical education on the cheap but it seems to be working..
The low price structure at LECOM made me curious so I looked at LECOMs Form 990, which is the tax return non-profits must file. All Form 990s are public information. If you have a friend who is a CPA in a firm that audits non-profits its easy for you to get a copy off the web.
Based on the 990 for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2009 it is apparent that LECOM is a lean mean education machine. Between Erie and Bradenton LECOM had about 1,650 medical students, 50 post bacc students, and 900 pharmacy students. LECOMs total revenue was $60,935,189 and its expenses spread among those 2,600 students amounted to $37,915,540. That works out to be an astoundingly low cost of $14,582 per student. LECOM cleared net revenue (the equivalent of profit) of $23,019,649 or $8,853 per student!!!
.Based on the things Ive read about LECOM these financial data stem from the extremely tight ship run by the Ferettis. The faculty only teaches and they teach or prepare to teach all the time. There is no research. LECOM wont let students eat in the class rooms because the administration doesnt want to clean up after them. The occupancy costs in Erie and Bradenton are dirt cheap. LECOM has figured out a way to get its students clinical rotations for free. This is medical education on the cheap but it seems to be working..
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2005
- Messages
- 515
- Reaction score
- 7
Just one correction, there is actually research going on at LECOM and they are actively trying to expand their research programs.
http://research.lecom.edu/
In addition, many faculty "wear many hats" (i.e. most have other positions like heads of the different pathways).
http://research.lecom.edu/
In addition, many faculty "wear many hats" (i.e. most have other positions like heads of the different pathways).
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,385
- Reaction score
- 64
Thanks for the informative post Obnoxious Dad! I'll be going to LECOM next fall at the new Seton Hill branch.
They just opened this campus in July 2009 so it isn't included in your numbers above.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2008
- Messages
- 1,024
- Reaction score
- 3
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2008
- Messages
- 522
- Reaction score
- 3
I do not think that skipping on paying janitors will generate a significant cost savings. It doesn't take an MBA to see that even doubling the number of janitors won't cause thousands of dollars in increased costs of attendance when spread out over hundreds of applicants.
I also don't buy the "PBL is cheaper" argument. PBL is done in groups of 10 students. A lecture is done for 200+ students at a time. Lecture is the primary mode of education at most schools precisely because it is such a cheap method of instruction.
I think LECOM estimates their cost of living to be lower than other schools and that's the largest factor effecting the total cost of attendance. If you look at just the difference in tuition between LECOM and other schools, there is not that much of a difference. The cost of living is cheap in Erie/seton hill/bradenton to begin with, so keeping cost of living on the low side will make that much more of a difference compared to schools that give a cushion in a higher cost of living area.
Finally, LECOM is clearly getting an infusion of cash from some source. I have not looked at their financials, but my guess at this point is that it's likely the Feretti family that seems to run the place.
I also don't buy the "PBL is cheaper" argument. PBL is done in groups of 10 students. A lecture is done for 200+ students at a time. Lecture is the primary mode of education at most schools precisely because it is such a cheap method of instruction.
I think LECOM estimates their cost of living to be lower than other schools and that's the largest factor effecting the total cost of attendance. If you look at just the difference in tuition between LECOM and other schools, there is not that much of a difference. The cost of living is cheap in Erie/seton hill/bradenton to begin with, so keeping cost of living on the low side will make that much more of a difference compared to schools that give a cushion in a higher cost of living area.
Finally, LECOM is clearly getting an infusion of cash from some source. I have not looked at their financials, but my guess at this point is that it's likely the Feretti family that seems to run the place.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,226
- Reaction score
- 1,122
More than 90% of LECOM's money comes from tuition. The State of Pennsylvania kicks in a few bucks and there may be a trickle of NIH money coming in but these sources only amount to about 8% of total revenue. Look at the 990!!
Everything from the low cleaning costs to the multitasking of faculty makes LECOM more efficient. This is why the tuition is so low.
If LECOM paid clinical sites $15,000 per student per year for the students last two years, LECOM would still make money!
None of this has anything to do with the students' cost of living in Erie.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2009
- Messages
- 94
- Reaction score
- 0
With Seton Hill in the mix, they are using economies of scale. For example, all of the admissions are handled by Erie by so they don't need to hire duplicate staff in Greensburg. Many of our OMM instructors fly down from Erie each week to teach, and our anatomy instructors and tests are all coordinated with Erie. We even have video conferenced quizzes and lectures with Erie for some of anatomy. I think they do a good job as Obnoxious Dad mentions of being lean and really knowing their costs. Hopefully, our tuition will remain low as a result.
Also, I wasn't thrilled by not being allowed to eat in the facilities, but I have lost weight since I started so maybe it is a good thing that we can't snack.🙂
Also, I wasn't thrilled by not being allowed to eat in the facilities, but I have lost weight since I started so maybe it is a good thing that we can't snack.🙂
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 6,224
- Reaction score
- 11
haha, wow. this thread killed any kind of excitement i had for lecom-b.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2008
- Messages
- 431
- Reaction score
- 8
The difference is, a PBL facilitator who did 2 second year groups and 2 first year groups would work 8 hours MWF. If they taught OMM lab as well, they'd teach another 8 hours on Thursday. Few if any of our facilitators have that kind of schedule.
Because they work fewer hours per week, comparatively, and are not managing research labs and the like simultaneously (as lecturers do at many other schools), the school doesn't pay its faculty as well as other schools tend to do.
I don't know what's up with the Ferrettis. If it was all about money, they could justify paying themselves more than they do... unless something's hidden from the school's tax forms. As it is, they seem absolutely obsessed with expanding LECOM. They're adding seats to LECOM-B's DO track while simultaneously trying to open a dental school at Bradenton. And I'm not exactly sure why LECOM started a pharmacy program, much less expanding it to Bradenton as well. I assume it's because it's a high-price doctorate program with more qualified applicants than there are spots available. Good financial sense, and businesses love to expand... but if there's some higher purpose than that, I'm missing it.
I'm happy at LECOM-B, but I'd never pretend it's a perfect place. There are annoying things we have to deal with. Whether it's worth it is up to each applicant.
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 6,224
- Reaction score
- 11
LECOM-B was pretty cool. PBL is interesting, I wish I had a semester of it to really help me decide if it was for me for 2 years.
- Joined
- May 11, 2008
- Messages
- 3,451
- Reaction score
- 628
Thats fantastic. We haven't had a working lecture hall projector for a couple weeks now. Where is that 23 million going anyway?
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2010
- Messages
- 163
- Reaction score
- 1
I can't speak for the other campuses, but LECOM is certainly not spending much at Seton Hill. No cadavers, few faculty (and very few clinical faculty), sparse facilities, a scrappy library, bare-bones wireless connectivity, a lot of low-quality low-cost choices (no name internet portal that doesn't work instead of Blackboard, tiny lockers, etc), no locker room for OMM, one standardized patient a year (and it's just a townie, not a professional)... I could go on for hours. And we pay 30K a year. Bitter? Damn straight! If could do it again, I would have gone to a more expensive school.
Yeah, from what I've heard, I wouldn't go to Seton Hill, simply because it's new, and it's not really LECOM's campus. From this thread, though, it seems like I should only focus on getting into Erie's campus, though.
