Undergraduate prestige doesn't matter right?

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gasbait

gasbait

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Hi! I'm trying to decide between these two schools, but I'm not sure if im basing this on the right scale. One school is a lot more recognized than the other, but I'm eligible for free tuition at this other school.

My family think I should just go to the more respected one, but I dont want to accumulate debt before I even go to medical school just to satisfy my ego. And after looking at the tuition, I'm probably going to be atleast 40 thousand down the hole if I opt for that school.

So in summary, does undergraduate prestige matter?
 
gasbait said:
Hi! I'm trying to decide between these two schools, but I'm not sure if im basing this on the right scale. One school is a lot more recognized than the other, but I'm eligible for free tuition at this other school.

My family think I should just go to the more respected one, but I dont want to accumulate debt before I even go to medical school just to satisfy my ego. And after looking at the tuition, I'm probably going to be atleast 40 thousand down the hole if I opt for that school.

So in summary, does undergraduate prestige matter?
Click to expand...

No matter what premeds say on this site, it matters. But just how much it matters varies from med school to med school. Money is certainly a factor, but you should also consider going to the school that you feel most comfortable at and the school you feel you will accomplish the most at and do the best at.
 
Holy crap, search function.

Edit: I just read the part about the free tuition at the less prestigious school. OP, it would be extremely stupid to turn that down over a school with slightly more prestige, especially considering that nobody has any damn clue if prestige really matters.
 
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I agree with the other poster that you shoudl go to the school you feel most comfortable at and where you will be happiest. What if you end up deciding that medical school isn't for you? I don't think you should factor prestige that much right now, especially since a lot can happen in 4 years.
 
Undergraduate prestige matters insofar as it helps you get into medical school (and more prestigious medical schools). It is far from the most important factor though.

Without knowing your financial situation or career goals, it's hard to give advice, but I would go for free in most cases. If you do well on your premed classes, MCAT, and do your clinical experiences, you'll get into medical school. If you really want to be a top researcher at a top institution, getting into a top medical school might matter a bit, and the balance might shift.

Honestly though, if you can see yourself as happy at the less prestigious school, I'd go with a free education, or even a much cheaper one.
 
It does matter, but if there's a huge difference in debt, go with the cheaper school. If you want to be a leader in your field (and want to go to a top 10 med school) or may end up choosing another field (especially one that isn't the health professions) go with the more prestigious school. This is assuming there's a large difference in prestige between the two school.
 
to answer your question, no, not really.

go to the state u with free tuition. i'm a freshman this year and i turned down two ivy leagues to go to a "lower-ranked" school with a full tuition scholarship. while i was initially upset, i am now SO happy that I made the decision I did. I'm making awesome grades here, already have a research position, and am avoiding thousands of dollars of debt. do you really want to be one of those unfortunate people on here four years from now worried about if medical school is even an option due to undergrad debt?
 
I'd go to the lower ranked free school. Prestige doesn't get you much and, honestly, makes it harder to stand out among your peers.
 
gasbait said:
Hi! I'm trying to decide between these two schools, but I'm not sure if im basing this on the right scale. One school is a lot more recognized than the other, but I'm eligible for free tuition at this other school.

My family think I should just go to the more respected one, but I dont want to accumulate debt before I even go to medical school just to satisfy my ego. And after looking at the tuition, I'm probably going to be atleast 40 thousand down the hole if I opt for that school.

So in summary, does undergraduate prestige matter?
Click to expand...

Undergrad prestige does matter, especially if you want to go to a top med school. However, if your goal is to just get into a medical school, it barely matters.

Cost and prestige are both similar factors to me. They should be taken into consideration. However, they should never be used to make a final decision (only in extreme cases should they be used that way).

You did not give much info, so I'm going to generalize a bit. In these types of situations, it's usually the choice between a large state school and a smaller, private. Even if the schools are not that different, it is clear they are very different places to go to school. By far, the most important thing for getting into med school is your gpa and MCAT, and then ECs. Which school offers you the best opportunities to get good grades, score well on the MCAT, and get a variety of ECs. Some people do well at large schools. They can succeed in large lecture courses and sift through the huge amounts of opportunities to find good ECs. Some people arrive in this environment and proceed to crash and burn. They might do better at a smaller school.

It all comes down to this, where do you feel most comfortable? Go to that school, leaving aside cost and prestige. You will be much more successful for doing so.
 
There are a VERY few med schools that are prestige ****** (like the University of Michigan) and the rest don't care one bit. You would be dumb to turn down free tuition. Work as hard as you can - a 4.0 cures most ills.
 
Go to the school with free tuition, no question. I was in your spot four years ago and I picked the full ride at my state school. I'm graduating in May with absolutely no debt and I've been able to take advantage of opportunities abroad that I wouldn't have been able to afford if I were paying $50,000/year for school.
 
Just out of curiosity, how big of a difference is there between the two schools? If you don't want to give the names, perhaps you could provide analogous ones?

Are we talking Harvard vs. University of Phoenix, or UCSD vs. UT-Austin?


And yes, unfortunately, I do think that prestige matters in this process. But I agree with all of the posts that recommend you go wherever you think you'll be happiest and best aligns with your goals and what you're looking for.
 
morning said:
There are a VERY few med schools that are prestige ****** (like the University of Michigan) and the rest don't care one bit. You would be dumb to turn down free tuition. Work as hard as you can - a 4.0 cures most ills.
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That is exactly the school I was going to suggest prestige matters at. I think UChicago and Vandy may also be examples, but not as quantifiably sure about those.
 
With regard to the prestige of an undergraduate university, I would posit that it does matter, but with a caveat. If all things are essentially equal, they will give the nod to the applicant from the top 20 school vs Your State College. However having said that, it's usually much easier to get higher grades in an average college than a top tier university. You would be better off applying with a 3.95 from Connecticut State College than a 3.4 from Yale. Though, if the pseudo intellectual pot head Yalie killed the MCAT, he/she would still get in somewhere.
I will share one example to give you something to think about. Two high school friends are interested in science and medicine as a future career, one gets a solid score on the SAT (but nothing extraordinary) and is a legacy at a top 20 university. He goes there, gets a respectable 3.4X GPA and kills the MCAT getting into several medical schools, including his top choice. Life is good.👍 His friend kills the SAT, but she doesn't get into a top tier university and attends a solid top 100 university, her state school. Both major in the sciences. However her GPA is 3.8X, it would seem that she should get into her choice of medical schools as well, right? No. Why? She struggled to get a good score on the MCAT. Why? Who knows. I sailed through the MCAT with knowledge that I learned in my classes, she took it 3 times and ended up at a Post Bac program and research job for 2 years at Harvard. She finally got in. I think that the increased competition of the top tier university forced me to learn more, and study more efficiently than her state school where she coasted on lowered expectations. On paper, she should have been a much better applicant. Something to consider. Maybe she was an anomaly, but she's not a "poor test taker" as she killed the SAT and had a 3.8 GPA. She also had no problems with the USMLE.
I share that story from time to time. It may be more important than you think to attend a very competitive university. Just study your ass off in your science classes so you can kill the MCAT.
If I could go to school for free, vs major debt for me and my parents, I would take the free ride, unless the school is academically really poor.
 
IlDestriero said:
However having said that, it's usually much easier to get higher grades in an average college than a top tier university.
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Isn't it the "top" schools that are known for rampant grade inflation?
 
IlDestriero said:
Not my experience. "Gentleman's C", absolutely, but you had to work your ass off to score an A. Maybe things have changed for the worse, I've been out a long time.
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The statistics are that ivy/private GPA's are about 0.1-0.2 higher than public GPA's. No data on what really causes this trend. (By my observations, public schools don't care if you fail.)
 
KatMan said:
Isn't it the "top" schools that are known for rampant grade inflation?
Click to expand...
You do realize that the bottom of the class at Harvard is probably academically stronger than the top of the class at some random state school, right?

As FlowRate mentioned, public schools don't have much of a motivation to prevent people from failing (they likely don't rely on donors as much, at least that's my guess).
 
Let's go smoke sometime Yalie. I would appreciate your insight.
 
I went to my state school and think it has worked out well. Sure, it doesn't have the prestige of a private school or Ivy, but I've gotten involved with some cool projects and extracurriculars here that other places may not have offered. I really think a lot of your undergraduate experience is what you make of it. Prestige may help some, but who knows how much. In my opinion (and not knowing all of the details of your situation), it's not worth the debt to go to the expensive school. A full scholarship is a great honor and will definitely help you out in the long run. Just focus on doing well in classes and on the MCAT and you will be fine.
 
wanderer100 said:
You do realize that the bottom of the class at Harvard is probably academically stronger than the top of the class at some random state school, right?

As FlowRate mentioned, public schools don't have much of a motivation to prevent people from failing (they likely don't rely on donors as much, at least that's my guess).
Click to expand...

Yes they do depend heavily on donors.
 
It does not matter. Go to the cheaper school.

I was in a very similar position four years ago - well before I knew about SDN - so I decided to call up med school admissions offices and ask them. The answer was universal: "We don't care at all, unless one school makes you an in-state student for us".
 
wanderer100 said:
You do realize that the bottom of the class at Harvard is probably academically stronger than the top of the class at some random state school, right?
Click to expand...


No I did not know that, please tell me more.

Regardless of the factually dubious nature of this, I don't see what it has to do with what IlDestriero and I were discussing, which was grade inflation, not competition. Unless you're saying that all college courses are curved and students are graded only relative to one another. From what I've seen, though, this isn't the case.
 
Thank you everybody for your kind advice. I admit, my question is a bit ambiguous, so I'll try to detail my situation a little more clearly.

My parents are divorced and i'm currently living with my mother. Because of her eye cancer, she is unable to work and her only source of income is her government benefits. Because of this, and the fact my father is currently going through bankruptcy and stated he wont pay for my college, my EFC is pretty much zero.

Even with all of this, my mom is still adamant about me going to the more prestigious school, but I dont want to imagine the financial burden my tuition will cause her. Because of this, I'm opting to go to a state school where my financial situation guarantees me free tuition.

I guess it's pretty shallow to use money as the factor for my school selection huh?

Oh, and if you really want to know the schools, its between Rice University and Texas A&M
 
gasbait said:
Thank you everybody for your kind advice. I admit, my question is a bit ambiguous, so I'll try to detail my situation a little more clearly.

My parents are divorced and i'm currently living with my mother. Because of her eye cancer, she is unable to work and her only source of income is her government benefits. Because of this, and the fact my father is currently going through bankruptcy and stated he wont pay for my college, my EFC is pretty much zero.

Even with all of this, my mom is still adamant about me going to the more prestigious school, but I dont want to imagine the financial burden my tuition will cause her. Because of this, I'm opting to go to a state school where my financial situation guarantees me free tuition.

I guess it's pretty shallow to use money as the factor for my school selection huh?
Oh, and if you really want to know the schools, its between Rice University and Texas A&M
Click to expand...
No its not, its respectable and practical. And both of those schools are good so just go with the one that gives you the scholarship.
 
Based on the new info, your choice is clear. You're definitely doing the right thing. Study hard and you'll be fine. Texas A&M ain't West Nowhere State.
The money you save will allow your family to get back on it's feet, and you will get a great free education. Win:win. It's a no brainer! Now you need to start working on a way to get a scholarship for medical school...
 
gasbait said:
Thank you everybody for your kind advice. I admit, my question is a bit ambiguous, so I'll try to detail my situation a little more clearly.

My parents are divorced and i'm currently living with my mother. Because of her eye cancer, she is unable to work and her only source of income is her government benefits. Because of this, and the fact my father is currently going through bankruptcy and stated he wont pay for my college, my EFC is pretty much zero.

Even with all of this, my mom is still adamant about me going to the more prestigious school, but I dont want to imagine the financial burden my tuition will cause her. Because of this, I'm opting to go to a state school where my financial situation guarantees me free tuition.

I guess it's pretty shallow to use money as the factor for my school selection huh?

Oh, and if you really want to know the schools, its between Rice University and Texas A&M
Click to expand...

Have you received financial aid? If your parents' income are indeed that low, Rice may end up being cheaper than Texas A&M.
 
FlowRate said:
That is exactly the school I was going to suggest prestige matters at. I think UChicago and Vandy may also be examples, but not as quantifiably sure about those.
Click to expand...

Srsly? I got accepted there and the student body of my institution is a bunch of derps. I mean that in a loving way. It's by no means what I would consider to be a truly intellectual or academic community. I think you guys are wrong on the Michigan judgment.

Anyway, OP, I would say go to Rice instead of TAMU. $40k in debt is nothing compared to the upcoming reality, and Rice would put you in a much better place as far as graduate school applications go and give you significantly better academic experiences than TAMU. Just my opinion though.
 
wanderer100 said:
You do realize that the bottom of the class at Harvard is probably academically stronger than the top of the class at some random state school, right?

As FlowRate mentioned, public schools don't have much of a motivation to prevent people from failing (they likely don't rely on donors as much, at least that's my guess).
Click to expand...

Hahaha, hardly.

I see plenty of Ivy grads getting average grades at my medical school, while some state schools kids are blowing them away. Nice try on the generalization though.

I chose the free state school option for undergrad and I think it put me in a BETTER position for medical school. I never had to compete for a research position, and it was super easy to distinguish myself with my grades b/c the average person from my undergrad probably shouldn't have been in college.
 
gasbait said:
Thank you everybody for your kind advice. I admit, my question is a bit ambiguous, so I'll try to detail my situation a little more clearly.

My parents are divorced and i'm currently living with my mother. Because of her eye cancer, she is unable to work and her only source of income is her government benefits. Because of this, and the fact my father is currently going through bankruptcy and stated he wont pay for my college, my EFC is pretty much zero.

Even with all of this, my mom is still adamant about me going to the more prestigious school, but I dont want to imagine the financial burden my tuition will cause her. Because of this, I'm opting to go to a state school where my financial situation guarantees me free tuition.

I guess it's pretty shallow to use money as the factor for my school selection huh?

Oh, and if you really want to know the schools, its between Rice University and Texas A&M
Click to expand...

Money is not a shallow reason, but it shouldn't be the main reason.

Going 40K in debt sounds terrible, but compared to the cost of applying and attending medical school, it's not that much (sounds so scary, realities are hitting me now...)

Everyone seems to be focusing on the money. I agree to some extent. A&M is a great school and should be fine for medical schools.

HOWEVER, WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU WILL LEARN BEST?

I will say it again. I chose the cheaper state school, and I do not regret my decision at all. However, I saw smart kids from my high school make the same decision and then fall between the cracks at a large school (alcohol/drugs/partying, not enough structure in large classes, etc).

The prestige should matter and so should the money. But, your number one priority is getting good grades and getting good ECs.

Where would be the best place FOR YOU? I repeat, prestige and money should be factors. But choosing A&M solely for the money may mean that you never even make it to medical school.
 
WashMe said:
Hahaha, hardly.

I see plenty of Ivy grads getting average grades at my medical school, while some state schools kids are blowing them away. Nice try on the generalization though.

I chose the free state school option for undergrad and I think it put me in a BETTER position for medical school. I never had to compete for a research position, and it was super easy to distinguish myself with my grades b/c the average person from my undergrad probably shouldn't have been in college.
Click to expand...
I exaggerated a bit, but my point is that the logic in thinking that the grade inflated Ivy is easier to do well at than a typical state school is flawed since the student bodies are not equal. Also the experiences at a typical medical school mean nothing since they screen for MCAT (in other words the state school kids have equal or better MCATs than the Ivy kids. BTW it also seems that WashU takes a nice amount of non-Ivy kids so props to them).
Also doesn't the last sentence in your post agree with my overall point?
I should also mention that I go to a non-flagship state school (and it's not even close to the top in my state).
ColeOnTheRoll said:
Srsly? I got accepted there and the student body of my institution is a bunch of derps. I mean that in a loving way. It's by no means what I would consider to be a truly intellectual or academic community. I think you guys are wrong on the Michigan judgment.
Click to expand...
Yea, but your application is probably a lot better overall than the typical application to UMich. You compensated for your undergrad's lack of prestige with other things in your app. Also there are different degrees of lack of prestige.
 
wanderer100 said:
I exaggerated a bit, but my point is that the logic in thinking that the grade inflated Ivy is easier to do well at than a typical state school is flawed since the student bodies are not equal. Also the experiences at a typical medical school mean nothing since they screen for MCAT (in other words the state school kids have equal or better MCATs than the Ivy kids. BTW it also seems that WashU takes a nice amount of non-Ivy kids so props to them).
Also doesn't the last sentence in your post agree with my overall point?
I should also mention that I go to a non-flagship state school (and it's not even close to the top in my state).
Click to expand...
But you yourself just said that the state school kids are on an equal footing after the great equalizer, the MCAT. Doesn't that negate what you said about the bottom of the barrel at an Ivy being superior academically to the top students at a state school? In my opinion, the top kids at any school, state or Ivy, are at the top because they're able to perform academically. Comparing the bottom of the barrel from one school to the cream of the crop of another is like comparing apples to oranges. So, I don't think that sentence that WashMe made agrees with your overall point.
 
ColeOnTheRoll said:
Srsly? I got accepted there and the student body of my institution is a bunch of derps. I mean that in a loving way. It's by no means what I would consider to be a truly intellectual or academic community. I think you guys are wrong on the Michigan judgment.
Click to expand...
You go/went to freakin' Baylor... I'd hardly call that a non-prestigious state school. (regardless of derpage, which really seems to be in high demand at any school)
 
i saw statistics somewhere that said average gpa at privates like stanford, yale etc were around 3.5+, at UCs like UCLA and berk it was more like 3.1-3.2. That's a big difference. It means the average student at stanford/yale makes between a B+ and an A-. An average student at UCLA or berkeley is making between a B or B+... Name does matter. there was a front page article in a korean paper last year that provided the number of matriculants to stanford and jhu from undergrad institutions - top schools and top UCs sent the most (5-10) whereas other schools maybe sent an arbitrary 1 or 2, composing the rest of the class. I think what it means is being from a big school gives you a boost, and the top from any school will stand out. But this is at the top med schools where there's probably more bias. I read on a UMich pamphlet the schools represented in their 2008 (or was it 2009? dont remember) class, and it was a bunch of top private schools with very little public school representation other than UMich. It goes to say that some schools are stuck up about the undergrad pedigree, grade inflation does exist at those schools, etc, but the cream will rise to the top...

Scroll to the bottom of the below website for average GPA stats at lots of schools. I get the feeling that grade inflation is a private/public school phenomenon, not a Ivy/not Ivy phenomenon. Private schools have a completely different attitude toward students - its about helping them succeed, educating them, whereas public schools are just education for the faceless masses. I went to a private prep school for middle school, then went to a public high school. In the private school, the teachers have to write you good letters and give you good grades or the rich and powerful parents call and complain that their kid is failing despite high tuition paid. In public school, nobody gives a crap. I would say the competition at the public school far exceeded the highly selective prep school, and that is why prep schools (at least high schools) are so successful in sending kids to top schools. I don't think that parents can yell at colleges the way they can high schools, but I still think there's a different attitude toward grading and student education that could contribute to the private/public grade disparity. anyway, these are just my highly unscientific (and highly anecdotal) musings....

www.gradeinflation.com
 
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morning said:
There are a VERY few med schools that are prestige ****** (like the University of Michigan) and the rest don't care one bit. You would be dumb to turn down free tuition. Work as hard as you can - a 4.0 cures most ills.
Click to expand...

Depends, all the US news top 20 ranked med schools care, hence most of the students are from top 20 ranked undergrad colleges. If you don't care about getting into a top 20 school med school, then don't worry about it.
 
gasbait said:
Thank you everybody for your kind advice. I admit, my question is a bit ambiguous, so I'll try to detail my situation a little more clearly.

My parents are divorced and i'm currently living with my mother. Because of her eye cancer, she is unable to work and her only source of income is her government benefits. Because of this, and the fact my father is currently going through bankruptcy and stated he wont pay for my college, my EFC is pretty much zero.

Even with all of this, my mom is still adamant about me going to the more prestigious school, but I dont want to imagine the financial burden my tuition will cause her. Because of this, I'm opting to go to a state school where my financial situation guarantees me free tuition.

I guess it's pretty shallow to use money as the factor for my school selection huh?

Oh, and if you really want to know the schools, its between Rice University and Texas A&M
Click to expand...

Last time I checked, considering your family situation, Rice will meet 100% of your financial need.

That being said, Rice and A&M are completely different places to go to school. Rice is tiny, and attracts a very specific type of personality. Opportunities just fall on your lap, but opportunities (from an EC and variety of classess standpoint) are more limitied because of its size.

At A&M, you will find a very different kind of culture. You will have a harder time finding opportunities, but the world is your oyster. There are a ginourmous variety of things to do. It's what you make of it.

I chose to go to Rice because it was absolutely the right place for me. I knew that I wouldn't have been as successful at A&M. I would've been one of those people who would languish in those ginourmous lecture courses and would've crashed and burned.

Go where you feel you will be more successful. If that place is A&M, then forget prestigue. If that place is Rice, then talk to the financial aid people. They should be willing to work with you.

I really don't think you can go wrong with A&M. A degree from there opens so many doors in Texas

PS I'm PM this to you just in case
 
Kaushik said:
But you yourself just said that the state school kids are on an equal footing after the great equalizer, the MCAT. Doesn't that negate what you said about the bottom of the barrel at an Ivy being superior academically to the top students at a state school? In my opinion, the top kids at any school, state or Ivy, are at the top because they're able to perform academically. Comparing the bottom of the barrel from one school to the cream of the crop of another is like comparing apples to oranges. So, I don't think that sentence that WashMe made agrees with your overall point.
Click to expand...
Eh, I was just trying to make a point about how the whole "Ivies are grade inflated" should be looked at in context. Obviously there are various reasons why people would go to state schools and not to Ivies (i.e. they didn't do well in high school, didn't have right connections, wanted cheaper options, didn't think that going to a more prestigious school would make a difference etc.), and I was also trying to make a point about how even the bottom of a class at Harvard for example is still pretty qualified, at least coming in (their 25 %ile SAT is 690), and there has to be someone at the bottom.
But I wasn't really trying to put down the top performers at state schools, I definitely think they (myself included) are qualified.
 
IlDestriero said:
Not my experience. "Gentleman's C", absolutely, but you had to work your ass off to score an A. Maybe things have changed for the worse, I've been out a long time.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if I buy that completely. Top schools may have grade inflation yes, but it seems to me most of them have clamped down on it since the drama in the late 90s/early 00s. (Totally subjective, I may not be right on this.)

I went to a top 20 university - all the core classes are curved to a C+ average, and the gentleman's C certainly does not exist. You have to put in the work even to do average, you have to go above and beyond to get A's. That does not make it easy on your average pre-med to maintain competitive scores.

So, my advice is to go where you KNOW you can maintain a high GPA. Only go to a more prestigious, research-heavy school if you know you want to go Ivy or comparative for medical school. And that's not to say you can't still get into those schools if you go to a state school, you can totally do it with the right connections, unique ECs, excellent LORs and a personal statement that really gets who you are and what's important to you across. It's always going to be what you make of it.
 
Kaushik said:
Citation please.
Click to expand...

not the exact stats asked for, but still useful

Middle 50% of SAT scores for Harvard and my State School

State School:

SAT Critical Reading: 530 - 640
SAT Math: 560 - 650
Harvard

SAT Critical Reading: 690 - 780
SAT Math: 690 - 790
 
Seven years ago the then-director of admission at Stanford said to our touring group something that stunned me then (and still amazes me): Almost 90% of the undergraduate student body were in the top 10% of their high school classes [which was impressive], but HALF of them were in the top TWO percent of their high school classes [that's the stunning part!]. So, if students like that do well in college, it's not really grade inflation.

And yes, even the top two-percenters generally will have to work their tails off to earn an A at Stanford.
 
How much it matters varies from school to school. At many places it matters very little. Come out with a high GPA and blow away the MCAT and you'll be competitive anywhere from any undergrad.
 
Playa said:
Depends, all the US news top 20 ranked med schools care, hence most of the students are from top 20 ranked undergrad colleges. If you don't care about getting into a top 20 school med school, then don't worry about it.
Click to expand...
Can I see some stats on that too?
JJMrK said:
How much it matters varies from school to school. At many places it matters very little. Come out with a high GPA and blow away the MCAT and you'll be competitive anywhere from any undergrad.
Click to expand...
This negates the above quote fairly well.
 
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