Prestige rankings

[Pre-med2019]

How to go about assessing prestige of programs? Comparing Louisville med vs University of Missouri Columbia. which has more prestige?

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[opabiniafan]

from my understanding programs are generally blocked into different tiers. going to any "top tier school", whether thats harvard or something ranked 20 spots lower will not drastically limit your ability to match/get opportunities. however, going to lower tier schools will affect your odds of matching competitive specialties/locations. for our needs, i think checking each school's match list and seeing how they place in specialties you're interested in is a good start

 

[Goro]

How to go about assessing prestige of programs? Comparing Louisville med vs University of Missouri Columbia. which has more prestige?

Don't waste your time. If ask 10 people, you'll get 11 answers

 

[haikuhero]

Solve the Wigner–Moyal–Caldeira–Leggett equation computationally or analytically and you'll have your answer for which medical school is in fact, the most prestigious.

 

[Endoxifen]

Solve the Wigner–Moyal–Caldeira–Leggett equation computationally or analytically and you'll have your answer for which medical school is in fact, the most prestigious.
View attachment 379295

I like how the source of this equation was used to model Brownian motion. Seems appropriate here

 

[LizzyM]

Why should it matter? Why would you even spend any time on such a question? Seriously, why is this important?

 

[CliveStaples]

I interact with hundreds of physicians of every single specialty at my academic hospital.

Not one single person's medical school prestige matters.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

The US News and World Report annual survey Algorithm is always accurate there... ha.

 

[LunaOri]

If you have to ask which of two programs is more prestigious…they’re equivalent!

 

[wook]

Don't waste your time. If ask 10 people, you'll get 11 answers

THIS!!

 

[wook]

The US News and World Report annual survey Algorithm is always accurate there... ha.

Ha!!!

 

[obiwan]

I interact with hundreds of physicians of every single specialty at my academic hospital.

Not one single person's medical school prestige matters.

Which runs counter to every single pre-med student's belief system

 

[Goro]

Which runs counter to every single pre-med student's belief system

And their parents

 

[eigen]

And their parents

I wonder if there's a linkage there... some sort of cause-and-effect.

 

[RunnerDad]

I wonder if there's a linkage there... some sort of cause-and-effect.

We live in an era in which Gen X parents (of whom I am one), raised by workaholic, career-ladder obsessed Baby Boomers, have trouble refraining from the horse-race mentality that they themselves had to push back on with their own parents.

 

[LizzyM]

Thanks for sharing your experience. We keep hearing the same story about medical school applications. Basically, it doesn't matter where you go for undergraduate. I just cannot wrap my head around this logic. If none of these matters, why do the students stretch themselves so much to get into the elite undergraduate programs? Why do they work so hard in order to get into T20 medical schools? If you look at the placement of the medical schools, apparently, the top schools have a lot more students matched in more competitive specialties.

Is that because the school is "great" or because the material they have to work with (the students) are the top of the heap. If those same students had attended a much less prestigious school, they might have matched very well from that school.

Some people place a lot of value on status and prestige They are forever trying to impress others and match, or exceed, the accomplishments of other members of the family or their social circle. Some cannot imagine driving a Honda despite the fact that it will get you to the destination just as a Porsche would.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

https://www.chronicle.com/author/jeffrey-j-selingo writes a lot about issues with higher education (undergraduate) including demystifying the artificial tiers we have about prestige.

Also (NYT subscription may be needed)

Opinion | Why Parents Can’t Quit the Elite College Arms Race

They’re anxious about an uncertain future that is beyond their control.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Goro]

Thanks for sharing your experience. We keep hearing the same story about medical school applications. Basically, it doesn't matter where you go for undergraduate. I just cannot wrap my head around this logic. If none of these matters, why do the students stretch themselves so much to get into the elite undergraduate programs?

Tiger parents

Why do they work so hard in order to get into T20 medical schools?

Tiger parents plus the belief that such acceptances are affirmations of thier existence.

If you look at the placement of the medical schools, apparently, the top schools have a lot more students matched in more competitive specialties.

That too.

 

[eigen]

If none of these matters, why do the students stretch themselves so much to get into the elite undergraduate programs?

Because their parents push them to, and those schools allude to benefits.

There are some correlations: being at a super well resourced school (most T20s) surrounded by academically stimulating peers can make a lot of things *easier*, but it's far from necessary.

In my experience, having gone to an unranked undergraduate program, and taught at a range of highly ranked places, is that the best students are pretty much on par everywhere from Harvard to West Nebraska State. What differs is the performance of the average student in a class, and where the bottom of the class is. Also, what proportion of students are top performers.

Most graduate and medical schools know this, so they consider top students from every school, which is why "undergraduate prestige" doesn't mean a lot for admissions. In many ways, it's more impressive when students are able to do amazing things without the support of a school with a multi-billion dollar endowment.

::edit to add::

And, of course, as mentioned, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If good students feel like they have to go to the best school (because prestige), then the best school has an even higher proportion of "top students". Then it makes sense that students would (proportionally) do better coming from that school, since the school already selected for the best students. There's also no way to do the equivalent of twin studies: two identically performing high school students, one of whom goes to a T20 school and one who goes to CC + a regional state school. And then repeat that for medical school.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I found the link I wanted to post.

Try Harder | Stressed-Out Lowell High School Students Chase College Dreams, Nightmares

At San Francisco’s prestigious Lowell High School, students share their dreams, burdens of getting into a top college.

www.pbs.org

 

[eigen]

The amount of absolutely horrible advice high school students get on college is astounding.

Like the number who were never told that most colleges will only accept a portion of their AP credits or dual enrollment classes, and wonder why they killed themselves for 3-4 years to take AP everything.

Or the (large) portion who skip first year courses because "my dual enrollment courses are college equivalent" and then get a huge shock starting OChem as a first year.

At least half of my advising time with first year students is slowly and carefully breaking the news to them that their parents / high school admissions counselors really, really didn't know a lot of what they were talking about.

And please note I'm generalizing: there are lots of great HS admissions counselors out there, I'm sure. But they're not the majority.

 

[LizzyM]

The amount of absolutely horrible advice high school students get on college is astounding.

... the (large) portion who skip first year courses because "my dual enrollment courses are college equivalent" and then get a huge shock starting OChem as a first year.

💯

 

[deleted982921]

I've never gone to a prestigious school, but I will share my experience on the other end of the spectrum: at an unranked state school for undergrad, I formed close relationships with many faculty and got to do research directly under them for almost my whole time there. They have remained invested in my success. Maybe I am naive, but I believe that I got a world-class education in large part because I was not competing for opportunities, mentorship, and guidance.

I don't know how this transfers to medical school, just food for thought

 

[emergentmd]

Cost is more imp that prestige unless you are sure you want to do academics.

95% of docs will match into the field they want and if not, the other 5% in a field that they will be happy with.

Would you rather be an attending with 500K in debt from a prestigious school or 200K in debt from a average state school?

Because you do know that noone cares if you went to a caribbean or Harvard.

 

[LizzyM]

Probably everyone should just get educated at a community college and then a medical degree from caribbean school for a happy life at low cost

That would be reasonable if 95% of Caribbean students graduated and 95% of those graduates matched. Alas, the outcomes are far less rosy for Caribbean students and that is not a reasonable route for anyone who wants to be licensed to practice medicine in the US.

 

[eigen]

Probably everyone should just get educated at a community college and then a medical degree from caribbean school for a happy life at low cost

.... but Caribbean med schools are some of the most expensive? And also you can't get a 4-year degree at a community college? Like, this statement makes no sense and/or suggests a complete lack of understanding of US higher education and medical education.

I think the analogue would be CC -> Regional State school to finish -> State MD program. Which is... the path a lot of physicians take, especially if they have good state options. I would certainly champion it every single time for most students.

Completely unrelatedly, I really don't get why this forum tends to attract parents who always seem to know better than faculty and professional advisors. Or why there are parents who are so involved in their adult children's educational decisions that they spend time on forums talking about them.

 

[LunaOri]

So faculty knows everything, no question asked? What's the problem with parents supporting their own kids?

Arguing with faculty and adcoms on SDN probably doesn't fall under the category of "supporting their own kids".

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Tiger parents

Tiger parents plus the belief that such acceptances are affirmations of thier existence.

That too.

We had a woman escorted from the building because she demanded to sit in on her son's interview and would not leave. Talk about embarrassing her son.

 

[Angler]

sit in on her son's interview

Just curious... was this held against the applicant? I would assume so...

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Just curious... was this held against the applicant? I would assume so...

If mom comes to class, she has to pay tuition too. Only babies, kittens, and puppies are exempt.

Please note: interviewees, don't bring your puppies and kittens with you either. Virtual info sessions, though... profit!

 

[LunaOri]

We had a woman escorted from the building because she demanded to sit in on her son's interview and would not leave. Talk about embarrassing her son.

I used to get that sometimes when I was doing college admissions interviews. If they did not respond to gentle persuasion, I would let them know that their actions would be documented in my interview report, and that the admissions committee would look very unfavorably on their interference in their child’s application process.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Just curious... was this held against the applicant? I would assume so...

I wasn't there that day, this episode told to me by the Dean. I'm not able to comment on the applicant's disposition.

 

[Goro]

We had a woman escorted from the building because she demanded to sit in on her son's interview and would not leave. Talk about embarrassing her son.

@gyngyn has reported that a parent literally shoved thier kid into the interview room.

I'm sure he's had his share of hovering parents wanting to sit in on the interview.

Thankfully, we've never had that here. Just a few parents who have come with their kid to interview day.

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn has reported that a parent literally shoved thier kid into the interview room.

I'll never get that visual out of my head!

 

[eigen]

I used to get that sometimes when I was doing college admissions interviews. If they did not respond to gentle persuasion, I would let them know that their actions would be documented in my interview report, and that the admissions committee would look very unfavorably on their interference in their child’s application process.

I've had a sharp increase in parents attending summer course advising meetings (for undergrad) with their children, but the one that stood out most for me was a Zoom where the mom was sitting by the computer with notes, and the kid was behind them on the couch, barely visible.

The mom didn't let the kid answer a single question about their interests, and "was sure" she knew exactly what her son should be taking (she didn't).

I've started just not saying anything, taking notes, and reaching back out to meet with the student when they're (alone) on campus. The proportion who want to change their whole class schedule is.... significant.