Burnout during fellowship. Help!

Resident and Fellow Experience in Training
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
J

Janedoedoctor

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
68
Reaction score
2
I'm a fellow in a competitive specialty. I love what I'm doing and I have never had any problems with the hours I had to work in order to get there. This year, however, I'm running into serious problems keeping myself motivated to get out of bed and go to work in the mornings.

I feel I have one important grievance with my program.
I am a woman in a male dominated specialty. I am in a situation where I am literally the only female in the program. I really feel at a disadvantage for not being part of the 'boys club'. In the beginning of my fellowship, several attendings have told me point-blank that our specialty is, in their opinion, an unsuitable job for a woman, and that I am setting myself up for failure in both my private and professional lives by pursuing it. I have done my very best to put in good work and I believe they are convinced of my capabilities as a doctor, but on a personal level they don't really get along with me as well as with my male colleagues.
They are not supportive of my plans for pursuing a particular subspecialty, because they believe it's not for women. Not being close to any of the attendings also makes that I don't have a mentor. I feel this makes the difficult decisions I have to make now regarding my future even harder.

These issues have brought me to a point where I'm in danger of loosing my passion and love for my chosen profession before even completing my training. The prospect of having to function in such a hostile environment for the rest of my career almost makes me want to run for the hills and become a pediatrician after all.

Are any of you in a similar situation and how have you improved it?
Members don't see this ad.
 
Sounds like you're in cardiology, and interested in interventional.

The way your program is treating you sucks, but not every cardiologist (or whatever subspecialty you're in) feels women are not competent. You made it through residency and are doing well, so don't let some small minded louts burst your bubble.

In such a hostile environment, the key is to focus upon your own progress and growth. It is difficult because to some extent you have to rely on your faculty to assess your skills (the same faculty who are bringing you down). If you can set some internal goals and use those as benchmarks for progress outside of faculty comments (ie, I want to be level II in echo, I want to get 90% of my fem sticks 1st pass, again using cardiology examples) you can feel professionally satisfied.

The problem regarding subspecialization is more thorny, since as you know your program has to support you, and if getting into fellowship depends in no small part on who your faculty knows, this is even more true for subspecialty fellowships. Do you have _any_ advocates for you in your program, particularly in the subspecialty field you want to enter?

p diddy
 
Thanks for your response. Of course you are right that I shouldn't let these comments get to me. After several months of working in this environment, it has just gotten under my skin.

What you said about setting goals for myself is a valuable comment. In spite of all these issues, I do feel I am being trained well and my technical skills have improved a lot since starting fellowship.

The subspecialty issue is really making me desperate. These attendings are the ones who were the most outspoken about 'no women belong in this field' when I came to the program. I have never even bothered asking them if they would help me getting a subspecialty fellowship because of this. There are attendings in the program who have sympathy for me, but they are not in my chosen subspecialty.

Oh, and I really don't want to disclose my specialty because of privacy concerns. :cool:
 
Janedoedoctor said:
Thanks for your response. Of course you are right that I shouldn't let these comments get to me. After several months of working in this environment, it has just gotten under my skin.

What you said about setting goals for myself is a valuable comment. In spite of all these issues, I do feel I am being trained well and my technical skills have improved a lot since starting fellowship.

The subspecialty issue is really making me desperate. These attendings are the ones who were the most outspoken about 'no women belong in this field' when I came to the program. I have never even bothered asking them if they would help me getting a subspecialty fellowship because of this. There are attendings in the program who have sympathy for me, but they are not in my chosen subspecialty.

Oh, and I really don't want to disclose my specialty because of privacy concerns. :cool:
Click to expand...


I dont know what the situation is like (you know better) but would it work to just come right out and ask them why they feel the subspecialty is unsuitable for a female? And maybe you can address those issues to them, and they'll be able to see that whatever assumptions they made about you were just stereotypes...
 
The boys (or girls) club attitude has no place in professional medicine. Your hospital or university likely has a diversity and affirmative action lawyer who can be an asset in exploring your options informally or formally. Either way, you should document who, when, and what things were said.
 
Impromptu said:
The boys (or girls) club attitude has no place in professional medicine. Your hospital or university likely has a diversity and affirmative action lawyer who can be an asset in exploring your options informally or formally. Either way, you should document who, when, and what things were said.
Click to expand...

Excellent point. In fact, perhaps send an email to whoever made an offhand remark about that field not being suitable to women, quote what they said, and ask them why they feel that way. Include dates, location, setting (e.g. at rounds, during conference).

Put it in writing.

If they call for a meeting to discuss this in person, take a voice recorder with you (if legal in your state, check first. If not, email them back after the meeting, summarizing what was said and how you feel about it, well, diplomatically of course).
 
Janedoedoctor said:
In the beginning of my fellowship, several attendings have told me point-blank that our specialty is, in their opinion, an unsuitable job for a woman, and that I am setting myself up for failure in both my private and professional lives by pursuing it.
Click to expand...

And?... yea, exactly. It's a matter of opinion. Not a matter of fact.

Your attendings will get over it. Medical schools these days are 50/50 men-women and that pipeline will probably tilt towards women as women achieve higher in graduate education and colleges alike. I think there will always be a fundamental difference with men and women in the workplace but I think the system will eventually equilibrate out of the long history of imbalance. I predict that more men will be more family-oriented, and more women will be more career-oriented.

So, you don't worry about the things that are out of your control. You do what you do and do it well and let all that speak for itself. Remember, that even though you feel all alone, you are not the first woman or the first minority nor the last.

There will always be the feeling of exclusion if you are different (gender, race, sexual orientation), but if you think about it, all of us are individuals and all of us are different in our own ways. Sure, I understand you're a woman in a male dominant field but there are similar difficulties and feelings of exclusion for men in women dominant fields (*cough* ob/gyn, *cough* pediatrics). Even if you were in the company of women, you probably will still feel excluded, because you are an individual with your own set of values and so unless someone clones you, there will never be someone who is like you. Get use to being different.

What defines us as individuals is how different we are, but what defines us as a group or a family are the things we have in common. There has to be something that you share in common with other people in your program (residents or faculty). Find that commonality amongst the people you are with, and the gender difference will slowly go away. At work, it's easy. You all share a passion for medicine and the subspecialty field you are in, so you should let that commonality shine through. Remember, the most important word in your post above is *our* specialty, meaning that you and everybody else are in it *together*.

I think you've got it all backwards. You say that it's the lack of meaningful relationships that lead to a loss of passion in medicine. I say that it's the (re-)discovery of your passion in medicine that will lead to meaningful relationships (as this is the one commonality that you know everyone shares). I think the latter is what you should leverage. But that's my own opinion.

I don't understand what the point is in documenting every comment or gesture. What are you gonna do, show your journal to some higher power and force people to like you? Ok, certainly, it's one thing to be discriminated against outright which does call for action, but it's another thing to feel lonely and not enjoy work because of a lack of bonding with your colleagues and faculty. Only you can make that accurate assessment.
 
Last edited:
Impromptu said:
The boys (or girls) club attitude has no place in professional medicine. Your hospital or university likely has a diversity and affirmative action lawyer who can be an asset in exploring your options informally or formally. Either way, you should document who, when, and what things were said.
Click to expand...

I don't think I will advance my career by starting a lawsuit against the senior staff. Just so we're clear: nobody is groping me or making sexually charged remarks. They just keep telling me, very politely, that in THEIR opinion, this (sub)specialty is not for women. I'm not sure, but I don't even think that saying that is illegal.
 
lowbudget said:
And?... yea, exactly. It's a matter of opinion. Not a matter of fact.

Your attendings will get over it. Medical schools these days are 50/50 men-women and that pipeline will probably tilt towards women as women achieve higher in graduate education and colleges alike. I think there will always be a fundamental difference with men and women in the workplace but I think the system will eventually equilibrate out of the long history of imbalance. I predict that more men will be more family-oriented, and more women will be more career-oriented.

Perhaps in the distant future this will eventually come true even for my specialty. But in the meantime, it's no consolation te me.

So, you don't worry about the things that are out of your control. You do what you do and do it well and let all that speak for itself. Remember, that even though you feel all alone, you are not the first woman or the first minority nor the last.

This is good advice, thanks!

There will always be the feeling of exclusion if you are different (gender, race, sexual orientation), but if you think about it, all of us are individuals and all of us are different in our own ways. Sure, I understand you're a woman in a male dominant field but there are similar difficulties and feelings of exclusion for men in women dominant fields (*cough* ob/gyn, *cough* pediatrics). Even if you were in the company of women, you probably will still feel excluded, because you are an individual with your own set of values and so unless someone clones you, there will never be someone who is like you. Get use to being different.

Again, you're right

What defines us as individuals is how different we are, but what defines us as a group or a family are the things we have in common. There has to be something that you share in common with other people in your program (residents or faculty). Find that commonality amongst the people you are with, and the gender difference will slowly go away. At work, it's easy. You all share a passion for medicine and the subspecialty field you are in, so you should let that commonality shine through. Remember, the most important word in your post above is *our* specialty, meaning that you and everybody else are in it *together*.

I think you've got it all backwards. You say that it's the lack of meaningful relationships that lead to a loss of passion in medicine. I say that it's the (re-)discovery of your passion in medicine that will lead to meaningful relationships (as this is the one commonality that you know everyone shares). I think the latter is what you should leverage. But that's my own opinion.


I don't understand what the point is in documenting every comment or gesture. What are you gonna do, show your journal to some higher power and force people to like you? Ok, certainly, it's one thing to be discriminated against outright which does call for action, but it's another thing to feel lonely and not enjoy work because of a lack of bonding with your colleagues and faculty. Only you can make that accurate assessment.
Click to expand...

I also don't believe that documenting and legal action is going to improve my situation. But, in my eyes, that situation is:

The faculty decides not to use their network for helping me get a subspecialty fellowship, as they do for my male collegues. They come to that decision only because of my gender, and not because of my capabilities as a doctor. How is that not discrimination?

I haven't started this thread to whine or ask for pity. I'm just looking for constructive advice on how to improve my situation and get where I want to go. Preferably without burning bridges or alienating anyone. It's a small world.
 
Janedoedoctor said:
I also don't believe that documenting and legal action is going to improve my situation. But, in my eyes, that situation is:

The faculty decides not to use their network for helping me get a subspecialty fellowship, as they do for my male collegues. They come to that decision only because of my gender, and not because of my capabilities as a doctor. How is that not discrimination?

I haven't started this thread to whine or ask for pity. I'm just looking for constructive advice on how to improve my situation and get where I want to go. Preferably without burning bridges or alienating anyone. It's a small world.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you aren't impressing them, professionally, and that allows them to excuse your weaknesses by attributing it to your sex.

You might want to re-evaluate your skills and performance before writing them off as sexists.
 
I feel you, Janedoe. I am hoping to get a faculty position where I am currently a fellow, but there is a definite boys' club there. They all golf together. The guy they hired last year is not a great doctor, but he's in the club and golfs with them. I'm a girl who knows nothing about golf. I went to the faculty club for drinks with them once to try to fit in, but I just have nothing in common with these guys. I respect them and they seem to think a lot of my abilities, but I still wonder about the boys' club factor in their decision-making. Best of luck to you.
 
Impromptu said:
The boys (or girls) club attitude has no place in professional medicine. Your hospital or university likely has a diversity and affirmative action lawyer who can be an asset in exploring your options informally or formally. Either way, you should document who, when, and what things were said.
Click to expand...

eh that is fine and dandy but wont amount to ****.

her word against theirs UNLESS a witness validates. HR/corporate will never act on anything unless there is a very serious risk of damages to the company.

all this will do will make her be a target. wait!!!!!! you cannot legally target someone for an HR complaint though..... oh ya real world people still do.
 
cjw0918 said:
I feel you, Janedoe. I am hoping to get a faculty position where I am currently a fellow, but there is a definite boys' club there. They all golf together. The guy they hired last year is not a great doctor, but he's in the club and golfs with them. I'm a girl who knows nothing about golf. I went to the faculty club for drinks with them once to try to fit in, but I just have nothing in common with these guys. I respect them and they seem to think a lot of my abilities, but I still wonder about the boys' club factor in their decision-making. Best of luck to you.
Click to expand...

these clubs just aren't "boys clubs". every job has a certain click and face to it. if you don't fit it, you are out. this is part of the whole politics bull**** that exists in the workplace. it is such a damn joke.
 
McGillGrad said:
It sounds like you aren't impressing them, professionally, and that allows them to excuse your weaknesses by attributing it to your sex.

You might want to re-evaluate your skills and performance before writing them off as sexists.
Click to expand...

I've given that idea some thought, but it just doesn't click.
In the places where I did my internship and residency, I had a great rapport with the staff and I recieved great evals and letters. Those people were really happy with my work. I don't feel I've broken that pattern this year. If anything, Im working harder and reading more now.
I also don't think the quality and volume of my procedures are any less than those of my collegues.
So, this is of course always a possibility, but less likely in my opinion.
 
cjw0918 said:
I feel you, Janedoe. I am hoping to get a faculty position where I am currently a fellow, but there is a definite boys' club there. They all golf together. The guy they hired last year is not a great doctor, but he's in the club and golfs with them. I'm a girl who knows nothing about golf. I went to the faculty club for drinks with them once to try to fit in, but I just have nothing in common with these guys. I respect them and they seem to think a lot of my abilities, but I still wonder about the boys' club factor in their decision-making. Best of luck to you.
Click to expand...

You feel me indeed. While the guys at my place do not play golf, the other elements are the same. There is no overt discrimination you could put your finger (or a lawsuit) on, but you can definitely feel it's there.
 
You are not suffering from burnout, you are suffering from being in a toxic working environment, which is not the same thing.

As lowbudget says, you are not the first not-male, not-white, not-heterosexual or not-able-bodied person this has happened to, and you won't be the last. As to practical suggestions -

1. Do keep on believing in your own abilities (cross-checked as normal as against objective reality). Making others feel inferior is a classic way for dominant groups to retain their dominance.

2. Don't let the wrong attitudes of others affect your behaviour to your own detriment. For instance, by not asking about your sub-specialty fellowship, you are allowing those wrong attitudes to affect what you do, to your own detriment. Even if they don't think a particular subspecialty is a subject for a woman, and have said that in passing, it will be much harder for them to say it in response to a direct statement from you. If you say openly "I want to do subspecialty X and I have all the qualifications and abilities I need to do it", and then behave with the expectation that you will do it, are you really going to get in response "You can't because you are a woman?" If these people have any sense of self-preservation at all, I don't think so.

It is difficult to challenge attitudes such as those you describe. But another classic way in which dominant groups retain dominance, besides making others feel inferior, is to send out signals which discourage individuals from even asking for change. If those signals are ignored and a direct point is made or direct action taken (by sitting at the front of the bus, for instance), then resistance to change has to come out in the open, and if that is resistance cannot be objectively justified, it will eventually disappear. It does take courage to stand out in that way, though.

As you are feeling the effects of a toxic working environment, you could seek out sources of support, such as confidential employee support from HR or from your educational institution, if you have one. Also, this might be the right time for you to lean on family and friends a little.

Finally, even if you are not going to take legal action, it can be worthwhile compiling a complete record of what has been said/done which is sexist, as this will bring into focus the precise nature of the problem and could help you find ways of dealing with it.

Good luck.
 
shopsteward said:
You are not suffering from burnout, you are suffering from being in a toxic working environment, which is not the same thing.

As lowbudget says, you are not the first not-male, not-white, not-heterosexual or not-able-bodied person this has happened to, and you won't be the last. As to practical suggestions -

1. Do keep on believing in your own abilities (cross-checked as normal as against objective reality). Making others feel inferior is a classic way for dominant groups to retain their dominance.

Thank you. My self-confidence has been at a low over this. But I really have no objective argument whatsoever that points toward me underperforming. Maybe I'm no longer exceptional in my current peer group, but I'm certainly not substandard.

2. Don't let the wrong attitudes of others affect your behaviour to your own detriment. For instance, by not asking about your sub-specialty fellowship, you are allowing those wrong attitudes to affect what you do, to your own detriment. Even if they don't think a particular subspecialty is a subject for a woman, and have said that in passing, it will be much harder for them to say it in response to a direct statement from you. If you say openly "I want to do subspecialty X and I have all the qualifications and abilities I need to do it", and then behave with the expectation that you will do it, are you really going to get in response "You can't because you are a woman?" If these people have any sense of self-preservation at all, I don't think so.

This is good advice. I have never directly asked any of these people to help me get into this subspecialty. In part because I expected the answer to be no anyway, and because I wanted to spare myself the frustration the conversation would bring.
Now I see that the outcome can only benefit me. Either they say yes, and then they are under an obligation to make good on their promise, or they say no and they'll have to explain themselves.
I do believe they are smart enough not to come up with the gender argument during that conversation. If they mention some element of my work that is lacking in their eyes, at least I'll have something palpable that I can improve on. Do you think it would be best to have a private conversation, or in front of a witness?

It is difficult to challenge attitudes such as those you describe. But another classic way in which dominant groups retain dominance, besides making others feel inferior, is to send out signals which discourage individuals from even asking for change. If those signals are ignored and a direct point is made or direct action taken (by sitting at the front of the bus, for instance), then resistance to change has to come out in the open, and if that is resistance cannot be objectively justified, it will eventually disappear. It does take courage to stand out in that way, though.

As you are feeling the effects of a toxic working environment, you could seek out sources of support, such as confidential employee support from HR or from your educational institution, if you have one. Also, this might be the right time for you to lean on family and friends a little.

There is no institutional suport that I know of, but I have a great partner and a good network of friends to lean on.

Finally, even if you are not going to take legal action, it can be worthwhile compiling a complete record of what has been said/done which is sexist, as this will bring into focus the precise nature of the problem and could help you find ways of dealing with it.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

...
 
It' s difficult to say what the best way of approaching a conversation on your sub-specialty would be, because there is so much I don't know about the situation. So the following is just random ideas.

People don't like feeling bounced into something. Given that you are starting from a position where you are trying to turn a potential "no" into a "yes", I wonder whether it might be best to avoid a formal request in front of witnesses as your first strike.

One option might be to spread the word round to plenty of people in general conversation before having a specific conversation - "this has been a great place for me to see what goes on in subspecialty X and I'm interested in pursuing it." Doing that would mean that any specific approach which you made afterwards would not be coming out of the blue, and an individual conversation on the subject would not come as a surprise. You could also try an informal, indirect approach to start with, asking something about the specialty or about fellowships in it, before having a conversation that directly asks for assistance.

As to a witness, would you want one because you think you might get a more positive response, a better-mannered response, or evidence for future action? The reason for having a witness might colour how good an idea it is to have one for any particular conversation. I'm assuming that your aim is to get into the specialty rather than to bring a successful action for discrimination.

If you think that objections on grounds other than your sex are possible, it would help to prepare rebuttals to them. If something is raised that you don't have a rebuttal for, you can always say something like "I hadn't considered that it would be an issue, but I'd like to have time to think about it and then discuss it with you again."

I'm sorry to say that, if you can grit your teeth and provide a bit of flattery upfront, that usually helps as well - "You have such a good reputation in subspecialty X, I think you are the right person to ask [etc. etc.]."

I hope it goes well for you.
 
Well, based in what you've said, I think the next step is clear. Everyone including yourself is confused on why a woman couldn't do your subspecialty. Address it. If it were me, I'd find a time that is semi open ended, but appropriate, and ask that question. And I would start with the person who told you that women can't do it. And to get your brain started on what to say, you can try something like:

"I've noticed that there isn't a lot of women in our field. Why? (Or, what do u think about that?" And listen.

"I ask because I'm a woman and I'm interested in this subspecialty and I worry about what it takes to be successful, what do you think?" And listen.

I mean, make this guy sing. Make these people lay out their argument on why women are incapable because that will drive your next step in addressing each one.

And you play the what-if game..."well, what if if I weren't a woman, what do you think my chances of being successful are based on how I'm doing during fellowship?" "Well, what I'd between now and graduation, I improve on this skill, will that make a difference?"

And ask multiple attendings for this feedback. They love that sh.t. You'll know based on their response who is genuinely trying to help you, and who is just plain ignorant. You can't rationalize with ignorant people so with those individuals, just say "that's interesting, thanks" and move forward with people who can be your advocate.

Once you're tired of listening to them pick you apart, drive it to a conclusion. "Ok, sounds good. What do I need to do to change/improve that?"

And that's your next step.

I mean, we're talking about medicine, right? I can't think of 1 thing in medicine that a woman can't do what a man can. Can you? Boobs out of the sterile field? Does your subspecialty require a sperm donation? See what I mean, see how stupid these people are?

Hope that helps.
 
Last edited:
OP, have you looked into whether your specialty has a professional society specifically for women in this specialty? For example, a quick Google search revealed that for cardiology (hypothetically), the ACC has a "Women In Cardiology Section." These type of professional networks can be a valuable way of identifying supportive mentors in your chosen specialty, even if they're not at your same institution. In fact, if you were to meet a few key mentors from other institutions, and really work those relationships, that might be even more valuable for getting your name out there at potentially more gender-equality-minded institutions when you apply for subspecialty fellowship. At the very least you'll meet some women who have managed to succeed in the boys' club and whose example you can emulate.
 
As to a witness, would you want one because you think you might get a more positive response, a better-mannered response, or evidence for future action? The reason for having a witness might colour how good an idea it is to have one for any particular conversation. I'm assuming that your aim is to get into the specialty rather than to bring a successful action for discrimination.
Click to expand...

My aim is getting a fellowship. I'm not planning on starting any action for discrimination. Doing that would damage my relationship with these people beyond repair, and I can't imagine how it would get me any closer to my goal.
The only reason to involve a witness is to keep them on their toes. They have no qualms about telling me that women do not belong in the field when we're alone. I strongly doubt they would repeat these statements in front of a witness. So it might make outright rejection a little less likely.
 
"I've noticed that there isn't a lot of women in our field. Why? (Or, what do u think about that?" And listen.

"I ask because I'm a woman and I'm interested in this subspecialty and I worry about what it takes to be successful, what do you think?" And listen.

I mean, make this guy sing. Make these people lay out their argument on why women are incapable because that will drive your next step in addressing each one.

And you play the what-if game..."well, what if if I weren't a woman, what do you think my chances of being successful are based on how I'm doing during fellowship?" "Well, what I'd between now and graduation, I improve on this skill, will that make a difference?"

And ask multiple attendings for this feedback. They love that sh.t. You'll know based on their response who is genuinely trying to help you, and who is just plain ignorant. You can't rationalize with ignorant people so with those individuals, just say "that's interesting, thanks" and move forward with people who can be your advocate.

Once you're tired of listening to them pick you apart, drive it to a conclusion. "Ok, sounds good. What do I need to do to change/improve that?"

And that's your next step.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response.

By and large, I have already had these conversations with most of the attendings. Their arguments are always the same:

"The specialty is very time-consuming and demands taking lots of call. Therefore, practising it is incompatible with being the primary caregiver for one's children. Every woman should, in the first place, be the primary caregiver for her children.
Ergo, women who want to have children should not go into this specialty, not because they are not capable, but because it is incompatible with motherhood."

I don't have children yet, so they keep telling me that, when I have a child, I will inevitably change my mind about wanting to be in this specialty and drop out or become chronically frustrated. They are convinced that they are doing me a favour by pointing me towards more 'feminine' subspecialties. I don't believe there is anything I can say or do to change their opinion short of having a hysterectomy.

However, apart from the gender issue, they might come up with some useful feedback on my work, so I'm still going to try out your suggestion!
 
Janedoedoctor said:
Thanks for your response.

By and large, I have already had these conversations with most of the attendings. Their arguments are always the same:

"The specialty is very time-consuming and demands taking lots of call. Therefore, practising it is incompatible with being the primary caregiver for one's children. Every woman should, in the first place, be the primary caregiver for her children.
Ergo, women who want to have children should not go into this specialty, not because they are not capable, but because it is incompatible with motherhood."

I don't have children yet, so they keep telling me that, when I have a child, I will inevitably change my mind about wanting to be in this specialty and drop out or become chronically frustrated. They are convinced that they are doing me a favour by pointing me towards more 'feminine' subspecialties. I don't believe there is anything I can say or do to change their opinion short of having a hysterectomy.

However, apart from the gender issue, they might come up with some useful feedback on my work, so I'm still going to try out your suggestion!
Click to expand...

What if you just say you don't want to have kids and are not planning on it? Or say you're incapable of having children.

It's really none of their business how you want to handle your motherhood.
 
Janedoedoctor said:
Thanks for your response.

By and large, I have already had these conversations with most of the attendings. Their arguments are always the same:

"The specialty is very time-consuming and demands taking lots of call. Therefore, practising it is incompatible with being the primary caregiver for one's children. Every woman should, in the first place, be the primary caregiver for her children.
Ergo, women who want to have children should not go into this specialty, not because they are not capable, but because it is incompatible with motherhood."

I don't have children yet, so they keep telling me that, when I have a child, I will inevitably change my mind about wanting to be in this specialty and drop out or become chronically frustrated. They are convinced that they are doing me a favour by pointing me towards more 'feminine' subspecialties. I don't believe there is anything I can say or do to change their opinion short of having a hysterectomy.

However, apart from the gender issue, they might come up with some useful feedback on my work, so I'm still going to try out your suggestion!
Click to expand...
So many clever things to respond:
1. you can't have children due to _____.
2. you're not worried since your S.O.(male or female) has promised to stay home with the kids. You could even add that it's written in your pre-nup if you want to be really obnoxious.
3. you don't want children and had your tubes tied (maybe not the most believable, but it may at least shut them up)
4. you're considering sex reassignment surgery because your mentors have told you women cannot do your job.
5. ask what their daughters think when they tell their daughters that "they can be anything they want to be....except [your specialty], cuz girls can't do that"?

It's more the idea of pointing out what jackasses they are by giving them a bizarre response to their argument. Obviously these aren't all realistic things to say, but you'd be surprised how asking variations of #5 above can prove your point and shut them up or at least decrease the rhetoric.

Look, I put up with some anti-female crap through the years (before medicine too)....you can't change their opinion overnight, but you can get them to stop telling you this BS. The bigger problem is that they believe this BS and you are not comfortable with them because of that---this is not likely to change as the damage has already been done.

Seriously, is there a GME office or a equal opportunity office that you can discretely discuss these issues with? I know you don't want to make things more difficult for yourself, but you could find out if anything could be done that doesn't seem obviously related to you (like some sort of diversity training involving multiple things, including gender stereotypes). That way you should have the option to walk away without causing problems if you don't like their suggestions. I would encourage you to comment on this in your exit surveys once you're done with fellowship so the ACGME/RRC gets some feedback that may result in being reported back to the program as something that needs to change. I know my program took comments given to RRC/ACGME more seriously than other complaints done during rotation evals.
 
Last edited:
Smurfette said:
So many clever things to respond:
1. you can't have children due to _____.
2. you're not worried since your S.O.(male or female) has promised to stay home with the kids. You could even add that it's written in your pre-nup if you want to be really obnoxious.
3. you don't want children and had your tubes tied (maybe not the most believable, but it may at least shut them up)
4. you're considering sex reassignment surgery because your mentors have told you women cannot do your job.
5. ask what their daughters think when they tell their daughters that "they can be anything they want to be....except [your specialty], cuz girls can't do that"?

It's more the idea of pointing out what jackasses they are by giving them a bizarre response to their argument. Obviously these aren't all realistic things to say, but you'd be surprised how asking variations of #5 above can prove your point and shut them up or at least decrease the rhetoric.
Click to expand...

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Good ones!!! (#4 is my fav :laugh:)

And yeah that's sort of what i was getting at too. You should tell them, janedoe!!
 
Thanks for the support everybody! I don't want to seem weird, so I made no references to infertility, or having my tubes tied. As a reply to the motherhood issue, I basically told one of them the following:

"Dr X, you have children, and you have an agreement with your wife about how the two of you are going to take care of them. It works out for the 2 of you, and I would have no business commenting on it.
I have an agreement with my husband about how we want to raise our children. We're both happy with it and I really don't understand why you would feel the need to get involved."

It shut him right up, at least in my presence. It's polite, direct and hard to argue against.
I'm still not making much headway with getting him to approve of my fellowship, but I had a chuckle.
 
I am sad sexism is evident in medicine. oh how naive i am :(
 
OP, if this is cardiology, then I have a few suggestions:
1) if you want interventional, then try to find a way to publish something related to interventional cardiology. If you can't (such as if the interventional attendings won't work with you on research) then do an end-run by publishing something related to EP, and then later saying that you changed your mind and decided to to interventional, or that dr so-and-so (the EP doc you worked with) was such a good mentor you couldn't turn down the chance to work with him. If you can't do interventional clinical research, then you could potentially take a year off, or two, and do bench research related to interventional stuff. It is a big time commitment, but if that is what you have to do to do an interventional fellowshi, you may have to suck it up and do it.
2) you can use letters from non interventional guys (or gals) to get an interventional fellowship. They won't be as useful as ones from interventional folks, but they won't be totally useless. I do think that you'll need at least one, if not two, from interventionalists. I guess you just have to pick the one(s) you think are least likely to black ball you. A letter that isn't positive is worse than no letter at all, though.
3) If your current program isn't supportive of women doing interventional cards, then get the hell out (for your interventional fellowship, I mean). I'm a cardiology fellow, so I know that not all programs are like yours. My residency program kind of was like that, but my fellowship isn't, even though there are very few women. Not that things are always perfect, but life is not perfect, and in general the men at my program are good men without retro attitudes. That goes for the fellows and the faculty. Yes, there are certain things they do together when they hang out that I don't necessarily take part in, but I don't think the faculty would ever refuse to teach me something, or tell me I couldn't do something, because of being female, because that would just be silly and inaccurate. You aren't crazy if it bothers you that attendings at your program are acting all sexist...they are being inappropriate...you are not. My experience is that you, the trainee, are not in a power position in terms of being able to force change. You are kind of just stuck with these guys, but only for now. Things are not like this everywhere.
 
Janedoedoctor said:
I'm a fellow in a competitive specialty. I love what I'm doing and I have never had any problems with the hours I had to work in order to get there. This year, however, I'm running into serious problems keeping myself motivated to get out of bed and go to work in the mornings.

I feel I have one important grievance with my program.
I am a woman in a male dominated specialty. I am in a situation where I am literally the only female in the program. I really feel at a disadvantage for not being part of the 'boys club'. In the beginning of my fellowship, several attendings have told me point-blank that our specialty is, in their opinion, an unsuitable job for a woman, and that I am setting myself up for failure in both my private and professional lives by pursuing it. I have done my very best to put in good work and I believe they are convinced of my capabilities as a doctor, but on a personal level they don't really get along with me as well as with my male colleagues.
They are not supportive of my plans for pursuing a particular subspecialty, because they believe it's not for women. Not being close to any of the attendings also makes that I don't have a mentor. I feel this makes the difficult decisions I have to make now regarding my future even harder.

These issues have brought me to a point where I'm in danger of loosing my passion and love for my chosen profession before even completing my training. The prospect of having to function in such a hostile environment for the rest of my career almost makes me want to run for the hills and become a pediatrician after all.

Are any of you in a similar situation and how have you improved it?
Click to expand...

I will reply more after the match (fingers crossed)...although in a slightly different situation and stage in career I can say I relate as a woman who applied to a traditionally male dominated field. On subI's, interviews, chances, difficulty finding guidance, everything despite having earned what most would consider a stellar app (though one can always work harder to be sure)...just go for what you love to do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

D
Question about ERAS fellowship application
Replies
3
Views
587
gutonc
gutonc
P
Transfer during/after PGY2
Replies
14
Views
2K
ThoracicGuy
ThoracicGuy
W
Disability diagnosis during residency
Replies
18
Views
2K
worriedguy
W
TheBoneDoctah
Fellowship and SF Match question
Replies
13
Views
2K
AlteredScale
AlteredScale
D
Academic Residency to Community Fellowship
Replies
8
Views
2K
gutonc
gutonc
Top