Pharmacy to Medicine

eagles22 said:

Just to clarify, I have done the pharm --> med switch. I would contact med schools to make sure they'll accept those classes. Med chem is a different beast than orgo although there is some overlap. I would also contact just to make sure they'll take the pharm.d. in place of a bachelor's. I couldn't imagine they'd say no, but a professional degree is different than an academic degree. It's always better to be 100% certain than to guess and lose an application cycle. Good luck in making the transition and on applying. It's completely worth it.

Just out of curiousity, have you taken physics yet?

Click to expand...

A in both courses of Physics, overall GPA is 3.8.
I've contacted schools. NYCOM and NYU demand a bachelor's, Einstein, etc etc.
I haven't called to ask schools about the courses yet, but definitely will once my MCAT is over. I assume most will reject A&P for bio2, but thats an easy enough course I can take. The real issue will be med chem, it was only 2 credits but semester long....**** yo.

Just keep up seeing who will accept you with the Pharm.D. and apply there. DO schools may be more lenient (I didn't apply DO, however). I could see them making you complete the traditional chem sequence especially with med chem being 2 hours. As long as you're in, it doesn't really matter though. Just pull a C for the credit which shouldn't be hard.

eagles22 said:

Just keep up seeing who will accept you with the Pharm.D. and apply there. DO schools may be more lenient (I didn't apply DO, however). I could see them making you complete the traditional chem sequence especially with med chem being 2 hours. As long as you're in, it doesn't really matter though. Just pull a C for the credit which shouldn't be hard.

Click to expand...

I'll keep everyone posted on how I do if I get in and what the actual things were. I never thought it would be this uphill of a struggle--the bachelor's thing is the worst. A question; if they say the credits don't count but the bachelor's thing is OK, I should apply, right? During the interview, or after it, when should I ask about the coursework deficiency?

pfaction said:

I'll keep everyone posted on how I do if I get in and what the actual things were. I never thought it would be this uphill of a struggle--the bachelor's thing is the worst. A question; if they say the credits don't count but the bachelor's thing is OK, I should apply, right? During the interview, or after it, when should I ask about the coursework deficiency?

Click to expand...

As long as the school will allow you to complete pre-reqs the summer before matriculation, you'd be ok. Obviously, you want to have most of them done prior to applying so they can evaluate you, but if they'll allow you to complete the 2 you're missing, apply. If they say you have to have a bachelor's, there is no sense in applying since they won't even look at you if you won't have it completed by the time of matriculation.

Alternatively, why not just take the 2 classes you're missing this summer? Then you don't have to worry about the deficiency while interviewing.

eagles22 said:

As long as the school will allow you to complete pre-reqs the summer before matriculation, you'd be ok. Obviously, you want to have most of them done prior to applying so they can evaluate you, but if they'll allow you to complete the 2 you're missing, apply. If they say you have to have a bachelor's, there is no sense in applying since they won't even look at you if you won't have it completed by the time of matriculation.

Alternatively, why not just take the 2 classes you're missing this summer? Then you don't have to worry about the deficiency while interviewing.

Click to expand...

I agree with the sentiment - I'm just not sure when to ask them for the course deficiency. Would it be after I am accepted? Or before even applying? I would think the latter if I'm not even screened out to begin with. I am on rotations right now until October (then Nov&Dec), so I can't take courses this year.

pfaction said:

I agree with the sentiment - I'm just not sure when to ask them for the course deficiency. Would it be after I am accepted? Or before even applying? I would think the latter if I'm not even screened out to begin with. I am on rotations right now until October (then Nov&Dec), so I can't take courses this year.

Click to expand...

Why not ask them now? You'll need to know eventually, and what's the point of applying if after all that work they say you can't get in because your classwork is deficient.

eagles22 said:

Why not ask them now? You'll need to know eventually, and what's the point of applying if after all that work they say you can't get in because your classwork is deficient.

Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable enough, maybe I'll call tomorrow for both Bachelor's and courses.

eagles22, that's the growing trend among pharmacy schools. A majority of us don't have bachelor's degrees. We go straight from HS -> PharmD. It's frustrating as hell to think that medical schools reject us because we don't have a bachelor's.

Click to expand...

Ok let me clear this up for anyone who is confused on this issue: If you are in a 6 year program and plan to finish before matriculating into medical school your Pharm.D. is sufficient. There are NO med schools in the country that will refuse you acceptance purely based on the fact that they require a bachelors degree and 'all you have' is a Doctorate of Pharmacy. This is an absolutely ridiculous statement and unless anyone has specific examples of specific schools rejecting Pharm.D. graduates purely based on their degree there is no need to even discuss this topic.There have been plenty of kids from my six year pharmacy school who have gotten into medical school, and none of them had a bachelors. Someone last year got into HMS, so this applies for the top tier as well as the mid and bottom tier schools.

HOWEVER, if you plan on applying to medical school without finishing the Pharm.D. curriculum I would recommend switching out of pharmacy into another major as you will not obtain a degree by staying in pharmacy and not finishing it. This is the only scenerio in which you would need a bachelors degree, based on the fact that you would have no other degree.

DOCTAfoHIRE said:

Ok let me clear this up for anyone who is confused on this issue: If you are in a 6 year program and plan to finish before matriculating into medical school your Pharm.D. is sufficient. There are NO med schools in the country that will refuse you acceptance purely based on the fact that they require a bachelors degree and 'all you have' is a Doctorate of Pharmacy. This is an absolutely ridiculous statement and unless anyone has specific examples of specific schools rejecting Pharm.D. graduates purely based on their degree there is no need to even discuss this topic.There have been plenty of kids from my six year pharmacy school who have gotten into medical school, and none of them had a bachelors. Someone last year got into HMS, so this applies for the top tier as well as the mid and bottom tier schools.

Click to expand...

NYCOM was at my school. I asked them if my PharmD was sufficient. She told me no, because I didn't have a bachelors. I told her it was an equivalent of a master's. She said sorry, but you don't have a bachelors. NYU also specifically states it. Albert Einstein gave me the run around. Oh, also LECOM.

The proof is right here on SDN.

NYCOM was at my school. I asked them if my PharmD was sufficient. She told me no, because I didn't have a bachelors. I told her it was an equivalent of a master's. She said sorry, but you don't have a bachelors. NYU also specifically states it. Albert Einstein gave me the run around. Oh, also LECOM.

Click to expand...

Wow... sorry for doubting you. I have to say that this is beyond ridiculous. I guess I will have to call every single school that I plan on applying to... Do they tell individuals that they are disqualified based on their degree before or after they take their secondary application money? Thats the big question haha

DOCTAfoHIRE said:

Wow... sorry for doubting you. I have to say that this is beyond ridiculous. I guess I will have to call every single school that I plan on applying to... Do they tell individuals that they are disqualified based on their degree before or after they take their secondary application money? Thats the big question haha

Click to expand...

You can apply to any school. It's your responsibility to make sure you're not wasting the money on apps. They're certainly not going to tell you to not spend the money on the secondaries. Good luck applying.

1
1
1

Clinical Rx said:

I have to ask. What year in school are you? You are obviously blind. What mistakes do they make? How about:

1. Wrong drug choice
2. Wrong strength
3. Wrong route
4. Wrong quantity
5. Wrong days supply


A pharmacist is an expert in medications and their applications. A physician doesn't hold a candle to them. You will realize this once you are in your residency and have to ask a clinical pharmacist which drug to choose for an indication.

Click to expand...

first of all, welcome to the forum and you know... the internet and such (possibly unnecessary but with <20 posts over almost 2 years....). There is a quote function somewhere around here (similar to the one I used (ok, more than similar)) which can aid us in figuring out who you are talking to.

But on to the content of your post - there are clinical pharmacists around, and they have substantial utility. However "will have to ask" is not accurate. In fact I have seen more than 1 clinical pharmacist get corrected by an attending because they wanted to switch medications for xxx reason but didn't understand all of the pathology with the patient and why the attending chose the treatments they did.

aside from that, you have described clerical errors which pharmacists are not immune to. So in that regard it is a wash.

Clinical Rx said:

I have to ask. What year in school are you? You are obviously blind. What mistakes do they make? How about:

1. Wrong drug choice
2. Wrong strength
3. Wrong route
4. Wrong quantity
5. Wrong days supply


A pharmacist is an expert in medications and their applications. A physician doesn't hold a candle to them. You will realize this once you are in your residency and have to ask a clinical pharmacist which drug to choose for an indication.

Click to expand...

Pharmacists are the drug experts, but a specialized physician will know about as much as a pharmacist does regarding drugs used to treat diseases in that physician's area of specialty. A cardiologist is going to know a large amount about drugs related to heart disease, likewise for oncologists and others.

I'm also in a similar situation. I'm a pharmacy student that keeps contemplating medicine. I like the idea of clinical pharmacy and originally did not want to do diagnosing/clinical procedures (which caused me to not pursue an MD). Now that I'm in pharmacy school I am having a change of heart and am strongly considering going an MD oncologist route vs a Clinical pharmacist route specializing in heme/onc.

Digsbe said:

Pharmacists are the drug experts, but a specialized physician will know about as much as a pharmacist does regarding drugs used to treat diseases in that physician's area of specialty.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I don't intend at all to diminish the training of pharmacists, but there seems to be some idea among pharmacy students that doctors don't know anything about the drugs they prescribe.

I'm not exactly sure what parts of it we are apparently lacking.... we need to know molecular mechanisms, pharmacokinetics, metabolism/elimination, interactions, side effects....

SpecterGT260 said:

Thank you. I don't intend at all to diminish the training of pharmacists, but there seems to be some idea among pharmacy students that doctors don't know anything about the drugs they prescribe.

I'm not exactly sure what parts of it we are apparently lacking.... we need to know molecular mechanisms, pharmacokinetics, metabolism/elimination, interactions, side effects....

Click to expand...

From what I've seen some pharmacy students look at the MD curriculum and see that there is usually only 1 course required in pharmacology and equate that with a belief that they know little about drugs (which is false). What many fail to realize is that during residency the physician is trained heavily on the drugs that they will be using in their practice. My faculty adviser in pharmacy school is a residency trained pharmacist and he works at a hospital as well as at my school. He said part of his job at the hospital is to teach medical residents about pharmacotherapy and how to use those medications appropriately and he was personally the one that told me to throw out the belief that MD/DO's don't understand drugs or have a deficiency in drug knowledge when it comes to treatment within their specialty.

I think both professions have preconceived views about each other that are simply not true. That happens when we put pride above patient care in my opinion.

Digsbe said:

From what I've seen some pharmacy students look at the MD curriculum and see that there is usually only 1 course required in pharmacology. What many fail to realize is that during residency the physician is trained heavily on the drugs that they will be using in their practice. My faculty adviser in pharmacy school is a residency trained pharmacist and he works at a hospital as well as at my school. He said part of his job at the hospital is to teach medical residents about pharmacotherapy and how to use those medications appropriately and he was personally the one that told me to throw out the belief that MD/DO's don't understand drugs or have a deficiency in drug knowledge when it comes to treatment within their specialty.

I think both professions have preconceived views about each other that are simply not true. That happens when we put pride above patient care in my opinion.

Click to expand...

we only have 1 didactic course in pharmacology. It currently has a list of 600 drugs in which we need to know everything I previously mentioned. Then 3rd and 4th year has much more to do with treatment regiments and theraputics. It is 2 years of applied pharmacology, and then yes, residency on top of that is another 3-7 years of more applied pharmacology with the rest of medicine in there as well.

We do a number of courses which stand as building blocks for these things but what many people fail to realize is that medicine is essentially just pathology and pharmacology. The rest of the didactic courses are meant to set the ground work such that those courses make sense. Then, as I said, there are the clinical clerkships where those two courses are applied hard core.

I appreciate your facilitator for fostering understanding and mutual respect like that. I agree that people on both sides tend to let pride get in the way of things and just makes the whole thing irritating.

SpecterGT260 said:

we only have 1 didactic course in pharmacology. It currently has a list of 600 drugs in which we need to know everything I previously mentioned. Then 3rd and 4th year has much more to do with treatment regiments and theraputics. It is 2 years of applied pharmacology, and then yes, residency on top of that is another 3-7 years of more applied pharmacology with the rest of medicine in there as well.

We do a number of courses which stand as building blocks for these things but what many people fail to realize is that medicine is essentially just pathology and pharmacology. The rest of the didactic courses are meant to set the ground work such that those courses make sense. Then, as I said, there are the clinical clerkships where those two courses are applied hard core.

I appreciate your facilitator for fostering understanding and mutual respect like that. I agree that people on both sides tend to let pride get in the way of things and just makes the whole thing irritating.

Click to expand...

That's pretty intense. I'm also glad to have the faculty mentor that I do have now. Although I've neglected to tell him that I'm considering medicine since I don't want to be seen as deserting the profession and entering things whimsically (I will tell them once my mind is made up). I really did begin pharmacy school with the full intent of becoming a clinical pharmacist and not a physician. I didn't want the responsibility of diagnosing and I did not trust my abilities as far as hands on clinical techniques would go (surgery and whatnot). I guess you could say my experiences in pharmacy school have built up my self confidence to where I believe I could do these things. I know this isn't comparable, but after being certified to immunize and having to know all the contraindications and scheduled timetables for vaccines as well as administering them I am beginning to love the hands on stuff and the patient evaluation aspect of medicine (which I got to do a little of when it comes to independently evaluating a patient for contraindications to vaccines and applicable disease states). I also want more patient interaction and I'm learning quickly that different hospitals have varying degrees of patient interaction for their clinical pharmacists(some hospitals have you rounding on the floor constantly and going to treatment team meetings, others have you in an office reviewing electronic chart data with minimal patient interaction). Honestly right now I am strongly considering applying to med school for the 2014 entering class and completing P1 and P2 years which I think would be most beneficial to me as far as medical school would go. At my school P1 year is heavily focused on the clinical sciences like mico/immuno/viro/biochem, tons of physiology and some anatomy and the chemistry aspects of drug synthesis as well as drug preparation (IV's and compounding) and of course pharmacology. There are other things we learn in P1 year as well. P2 year we wrap up most of the clinical sciences and begin pharmacotherapy. At my school we divide the pharmacotherapy courses by their system (neuro, cardiac, oncology, etc). which encompass roughly 70-80% of the remaining curriculum until we begin APPE's in P4 year (full time rotations which I guess would be comparable to M3-M4 clerkships). I think beginning med school after P2 year would help me in going through the sciences during M1 and M2 year as well as hopefully giving me an added boost in the pharmacology stuff taught in medical school.

Just curious, but do you have any pharmacists/PharmD student transfers in your medical school class? Is there any advice you would give to a PharmD student contemplating medical school?

Digsbe said:

Just curious, but do you have any pharmacists/PharmD student transfers in your medical school class? Is there any advice you would give to a PharmD student contemplating medical school?

Click to expand...

I dont know any personally, but there are several in the allo forums.

based on what I have heard from them: Worry more about having a solid work ethic than about utilizing this education to get you through. You won't necessarily know all of it the way they want you to know it for med school. Also, the difficulty comes not from the 1 class but the balancing act with having 3-4 classes with just as much/almost as much material so just be capable of keeping your butt in gear. Some things may be easier having a background in pharmacy, but just pretend it won't be to make sure you arent surprised
Aside from that, you may want to find some time to shadow to make sure this is something you really want.

SpecterGT260 said:

I dont know any personally, but there are several in the allo forums.

based on what I have heard from them: Worry more about having a solid work ethic than about utilizing this education to get you through. You won't necessarily know all of it the way they want you to know it for med school. Also, the difficulty comes not from the 1 class but the balancing act with having 3-4 classes with just as much/almost as much material so just be capable of keeping your butt in gear. Some things may be easier having a background in pharmacy, but just pretend it won't be to make sure you arent surprised
Aside from that, you may want to find some time to shadow to make sure this is something you really want.

Click to expand...

I definitely plan on shadowing an oncologist. I am looking to shadow one over Thanksgiving and Christmas break if I can. I have a thread in the "what are my chances" portion of the pre-med forum outlining my less than par GPA and stats when it comes to MD program admission, but I'm hoping with some PharmD grad courses with good grades that I can offset some of my bad grades from undergrad.

I know the emphasis in the material taught between "similar" courses in pharm and med school will be different so I'm hoping my better understanding of the concepts will aid me as I study in the med school classes. I purposefully did a 4 year bachelors before pharm school (many people just do 3 to get pre-reqs done) with a year long research project to better prepare me for pharmacy school under the belief that I would still have to study hard and wouldn't know everything. Honestly at this point in time I am leaning towards applying to med school... I know that I would be satisfied working as an oncologist and have confidence that I could properly diagnose and preform procedures after an MD education and residency (and to me it's worth the added years and student loans), I also know that I would be completely miserable working in an office with minimal patient interaction or having a very minimal role in planning out a patient's pharmacotherapy. I've already applied to take out an additional 2k in loans to pay for the MCAT, AAMC application process and possible interview trips during the 2013-2014 application cycle. If I don't get in I could reapply again during my remaining 2 years in pharmacy school so hopefully worst case scenario after 3 years of applying while loading my application and CV I'm bound to get accepted to at least 1 MD program (although preferably I would rather get accepted during my first round, it would also save me money in student loans).

Digsbe said:

I definitely plan on shadowing an oncologist. I am looking to shadow one over Thanksgiving and Christmas break if I can. I have a thread in the "what are my chances" portion of the pre-med forum outlining my less than par GPA and stats when it comes to MD program admission, but I'm hoping with some PharmD grad courses with good grades that I can offset some of my bad grades from undergrad.

I know the emphasis in the material taught between "similar" courses in pharm and med school will be different so I'm hoping my better understanding of the concepts will aid me as I study in the med school classes. I purposefully did a 4 year bachelors before pharm school (many people just do 3 to get pre-reqs done) with a year long research project to better prepare me for pharmacy school under the belief that I would still have to study hard and wouldn't know everything. Honestly at this point in time I am leaning towards applying to med school... I know that I would be satisfied working as an oncologist and have confidence that I could properly diagnose and preform procedures after an MD education and residency (and to me it's worth the added years and student loans), I also know that I would be completely miserable working in an office with minimal patient interaction or having a very minimal role in planning out a patient's pharmacotherapy. I've already applied to take out an additional 2k in loans to pay for the MCAT, AAMC application process and possible interview trips during the 2013-2014 application cycle. If I don't get in I could reapply again during my remaining 2 years in pharmacy school so hopefully worst case scenario after 3 years of applying while loading my application and CV I'm bound to get accepted to at least 1 MD program (although preferably I would rather get accepted during my first round, it would also save me money in student loans).

Click to expand...

Hey, I PM you...check the thing.

eagles22 said:

I just did this. They'll certainly ask you about the switch in every interview. No I won't give you my answer, but I can tell you I was brutally honest with my reasons for the switch. You better think of a better reason than using pharmacy as a backup because that makes you look dishonest. Also, if you don't know the differences in the 2 professions how can you tell them why you want to be a doctor?

Click to expand...

Wait- so if he's brutally honest- it will make him look dishonest?

Essene said:

Wait- so if he's brutally honest- it will make him look dishonest?

Click to expand...

not dishonest, but med Adcoms do look for commitment. You could have ridiculously stellar stats, but if you appear whimsical about your decision to pursue medicine you will have difficulty getting in. Someone may take you.... but it will be a minority for sure.

SpecterGT260 said:

not dishonest, but med Adcoms do look for commitment. You could have ridiculously stellar stats, but if you appear whimsical about your decision to pursue medicine you will have difficulty getting in. Someone may take you.... but it will be a minority for sure.

Click to expand...

I switched to pre-med right at the cusp of entering nursing school. I had already interviewed and taken my TEAS. How do you think that'll look? Is it okay because I didn't actually leave a program? Or do I have to worry?

Sorry to threadjack- but I didn't want to make separate threat.

Essene said:

I switched to pre-med right at the cusp of entering nursing school. I had already interviewed and taken my TEAS. How do you think that'll look? Is it okay because I didn't actually leave a program? Or do I have to worry?

Sorry to threadjack- but I didn't want to make separate threat.

Click to expand...

If you want more specific answers to your situation and nursing you may want to post a thread or search one out. There are a few nursing to MD threads around.

But to quickly answer your question - I am not sure. I don't know of any reason that you need to put your TEAS on your med apps (I am assuming that is a nursing school test?), so you may be able to repurpose some things in your app for medicine, like volunteering or clinical stuff. Unless it is unavoidable I wouldn't necessarily highlight your previous aims at nursing. It isnt that nursing is a bad thing, but it is honestly just something they will ask you to explain.

SpecterGT260 said:

If you want more specific answers to your situation and nursing you may want to post a thread or search one out. There are a few nursing to MD threads around.

But to quickly answer your question - I am not sure. I don't know of any reason that you need to put your TEAS on your med apps (I am assuming that is a nursing school test?), so you may be able to repurpose some things in your app for medicine, like volunteering or clinical stuff. Unless it is unavoidable I wouldn't necessarily highlight your previous aims at nursing. It isnt that nursing is a bad thing, but it is honestly just something they will ask you to explain.

Click to expand...

Yeah- it's their MCAT. This is, more or less, what I was going to do. Thanks!

SpecterGT260 said:

not dishonest, but med Adcoms do look for commitment. You could have ridiculously stellar stats, but if you appear whimsical about your decision to pursue medicine you will have difficulty getting in. Someone may take you.... but it will be a minority for sure.

Click to expand...

In the pharmaceutical industry, the incorporation of the disciplines of drug metabolism and pharmacokinetics (DMPK), and pharmacodynamics (PD) into various drug development process has been recognized to be extremely important for appropriate compound selection and optimization.