The UNC vs. Columbia Match-Up

AJ414 · Mar 22, 2011

Its getting down to decision time and I am really torn. On one side of the arena is Columbia: ranking in at number 5, this rough and tough urban school is just uptown from my current home. With friends/family/boyfriend coming out in full support, this has always been the crowd pleaser but with fame comes great debt.

On the other side of the ring is UNC HBHE. Originally misjudged as being too country, this lean, mean, fiscally-conscious machine holds tight to its second place ranking in the hearts of public health practictioners nation-wide. With a small, intimate class of around 35, and a slew of professors with research interest similar to mine, Its now tied for #1 in my heart.

Ok I cant keep going haha

Pretty much I need to decide which has better value. UNC is about $30,000 cheaper than Columbia, looking at tuition and living expenses and as many of us know, its not like we are working in finance and can pay off $100,000 in loans by cashing in our holiday bonus. My current position in city gov has taught me that a Columbia degree takes you a looong way in NYC for future jobs. In the case that I decide to move out of the PH field, I think that having an Ivy degree is a degree that keeps on giving. While UNC will teach me a strong skill set in HBHE, Columbia will give me a more comprehensive knowledge of adolescent health. On the other hand, having worked with a TON of current columbia students, many have expressed being unhappy/disappointed with the school and its overall value compared to the pricetag. I am also thinking about my cohorts: with UNC, most are in-state and stay in the south after graduation whereas with Columbia, these are people who I am likely to continue to work with in the field after we graduate.

SO what do people think? Are we a lil bit country or a lil bit rockn'roll? 😎

Any comments/opinions would be really appreciated!!

2013MPH2013 · Mar 22, 2011

While only anecdotal, my friend went to UNC for her MPH, found a research project right away to get funding and then was eligible for in-state tuition her second year. By doing well in her program she was able to get funding to attend conferences both internationally and in the US. The cost of living is very inexpensive, it is beautiful there and it is an excellent program. She was then able to get 3 great offers for a PhD, and she had no problem finding jobs.

happynhopeful · Mar 22, 2011

Hey AJ, Were you able to go to Admitted Students Day at UNC yesterday? I did and was really impressed. Most importantly, I was able to have one-on-one conversations with 5 faculty members, at least 5 students, and 1 admin staff. The learning environment felt very communal. This was different compared to other SPHs I've visited. I was also impressed by the projects in which the students are involved. At least two of the ones I spoke with will be published by the time they graduate.

The stats they showed us said most students are out-of-state. If you move to NC by August before you start the program and get a DL, library card, voter reg, etc, you should qualify for in-state tuition your second year. Also, during the panel of current students, they said that all of the students who started in fall 2010 who wanted a job had found one either within the dept or with an agency. Most jobs are 15-18 hrs/wk and can be hourly or even assistantships.

Finally, I know Chapel Hill isn't the big city but I live in a small town and can say that CH isn't rural. Certainly, it's not NYC, though. I guess that's something you'll need to take into account if you'll be looking for jobs in NYC afterward. I'm leaning toward UNC right now and am not planning to stay in the South after graduation.

Good luck making your decision!

coffeeforme · Mar 22, 2011

Hi AJ - I have a similar decision to make, although it's actually between Columbia and Berkeley, rather than UNC. Berkeley also has a small program - around 20 students for HSB - similar to UNC. Berkeley would also be cheaper.

I guess my biggest concern is that I love NYC and definitely want to live in NYC after getting my MPH. From your experience working with Mailman students/graduates in NYC, do you think it would be a lot easier to get a job in NYC coming from Mailman as opposed to another school of public health (such as UNC or Berkeley)? Do you know how well-respected other schools of public health are in NYC as compared to Mailman?

Stories · Mar 23, 2011

My $0.02: If you know you want to stay in a particular city, it's going to be quite a bit easier and convenient to find both an internship/practicum and job in that same city because you're already there (you're a much quicker hire plus they don't have to cover any moving expenses). You're also likely to find a network in that city, rather than having to start making a new one once you decide what city you'd like to move to. If I knew I wanted to be in NY the rest of my life, I'd also do my education in NY.

delababy · Mar 23, 2011

I will throw in my 8 cents. I am deciding between Columbia, Emory, and Yale while leaning pretty heavily towards Columbia because I love NYC.

As far as students being unhappy the ones I talked to never mentioned being unhappy with the courses or professors. In fact one of the SMS students I talked to said she was so blown away with her EPI course she almost switched! They expressed being perfectly satisfied, though busy. It all depends on who you talk to. Some people like it, some people don't.

I mentioned in a previous thread about the kind of opportunities that you can find in the city as being a really big deciding factor for me. I'm inclined to agree with Stories take on finding jobs in this area. It's just FAR easier finding jobs around here if you are actually here. Columbia has an "in" at a lot of places around the city, and you seem very aware of that. I know it too since I've been slightly milking it while I transition out of my current gig.

A lot of people give small programs a gold star, but they also have their downsides. There are fewer people to meet, and subsequently there could be fewer people in your network (unless your super chatty). You work in gov, not sure how you feel about non-profit, but most of the interns who work with me got here from a friend they met in their graduate program who worked here at one time or another. We tell the boss how awesome so and so is, and they bring them in. If I've learned anything about job searching/hire in NYC, HR doesn't actually want to actively search around. It helps to know people. But in all honesty I'm also particularly biased to crowds. I just love tons of people, and the thought of going to a small program brings on minor feelings of panic.

Cost definitely freaks me out about Columbia too. But *generally* (non-profit isn't always so lucky) because it costs more to live here you get paid proportionally more. (Don't tell that to my friend in PR, she's basically an indentured servant). I've really thought about the cost, and it seems doable. It might be a struggle for a few years, but as we move up the ladder so do our salaries.

As an aside I was lucky enough at my place of work to meet a trustee of the Mailman School and besides being a lovely man, he just gushed to me about the new dean and the "great things" that were going to be happening. Kinda exciting

So AJ...team rock and rolllllll babbbyy 😉. Who knows, we could end up on the same A train to school one day, bond over a crazy homeless man in our car and become besties. Anything could happen at Columbia!

ashleyleah15 · Mar 23, 2011

Although I did not apply to UNC... I did apply to a lot of schools for MHA/MPH-Health Policy and Management, and ultimately decided on Columbia for this fall! I am from the south (currently undergrad at UF), and the opportunity to live in NYC was too amazing to pass up! The prestige of an ivy league, connections in the city, and the doors that will open from networking is undeniable.

I have had the same concerns about people being unhappy at Columbia, but that goes with every program. I have had an amazing experience at UF, and I know people in the same program as me that have had a horrible experience and would go somewhere else if they had the option. I think it all depends what you are looking for, and go with your gut. If you have a strong feeling for Columbia or UNC just go with it. Ultimately, it's going to be you going to school, you living in that community, and you making a name for yourself. It is so nice and encouraging to have your family and friends around, but you have to make the choice that will make you happy in the long run. I am moving far away from all my friends and family, but I know the opportunities in NYC and to go to Columbia is going to make it all worth it in the end.

coffeeforme · Mar 23, 2011

Thanks Stories, delababy, and ashleyleah for your help/advice/insight!

Going to Columbia would probably be the logical choice for me, seeing as I want to get a job in NYC afterwards (and, delababy, I completely agree with all your points about Columbia/NYC!). I was all set on Columbia until I visited Berkeley. I was really impressed by the other students I met in my department at Berkeley's visit day, as well as the program overall and the professors. I also followed up with the career services center and found out that Berkeley has an agreement with Columbia where graduates from both schools can use the other school's job search database, which is really intriguing. While I know it would be a lot easier to get a job in NYC if I got my MPH from Columbia, I was just wondering if anyone knew from their experience or anecdotally about getting a job after graduating from another school of public health.

Also Stories, I saw that you got your MPH from BU and are working on your PhD from Yale. Do most people get their MPH and PhD from the same school of public health? I just assumed it would be easier that way because you already have connections with the professors. Do you know, by any chance, how common it is for people to switch schools between their MPH and their PhD or DrPH?

Sorry, I am totally derailing this thread! Feel free to PM me or maybe I can start a new thread so as to keep this one on Columbia v.s. UNC...

AJ414 · Mar 24, 2011

Hey guys! Thanks so much for everyone's input... Stories and delababy, your comments were a big wake-up call... Youre totally right that itd be dumb not to go to school in the city where I eventually want to work, esp in gov't. I think I just need to get over the money issues and consider my columbia degree to be an investment in my nyc future... ugh anyone else sometimes hate having to making smart, responsible adult decisions? 😎

*sigh* goodbye dreams of beautiful post-grad soho shopping sprees and apts bigger than a refridgerator box...

BTW, anyone going to the Columbia Accepted Students Day tomm? SO excited!

delababy · Mar 24, 2011

No decision you make is dumb AJ. Sometimes it's really tough trying to balance all the different factors that go into choosing a school. I certainly can commiserate feeling family pressure to stay close (I'm from around the NYC area too). Then there is cost, if you like the program, etc. Not to mention here we are sweating over post-grad jobs that aren't even guarantees, basing a future on ideas that we have, and hoping our hard work will be enough. It's enough to make a lesser mortal go absolutely nuts. Have fun at visit day tomorrow, and to everyone else who will be there!

RAMPA · Mar 25, 2011

AJ414 said:
Hey guys! Thanks so much for everyone's input... Stories and delababy, your comments were a big wake-up call... Youre totally right that itd be dumb not to go to school in the city where I eventually want to work, esp in gov't. I think I just need to get over the money issues and consider my columbia degree to be an investment in my nyc future... ugh anyone else sometimes hate having to making smart, responsible adult decisions? 😎

*sigh* goodbye dreams of beautiful post-grad soho shopping sprees and apts bigger than a refridgerator box...

BTW, anyone going to the Columbia Accepted Students Day tomm? SO excited!

I'll be there tomorrow/today. I'm planning to stop by the main campus before heading out to Mailman. I was accepted in HP&M.

sf318 · Mar 26, 2011

AJ414 said:
On the other hand, having worked with a TON of current columbia students, many have expressed being unhappy/disappointed with the school and its overall value compared to the pricetag.

Hi AJ,

I've noticed that there are a lot of comments similar to this on this forum and the topic has been addressed sporadically here and there, yet no one provides any details about what it is exactly about Columbia that students are so unhappy with (and this seems like too big of a sample size to ignore!)...would you be willing to provide more specific details for those of us who do not have personal contacts to current or former students at Mailman and the NYC area?

Just to make some suggestions...is it an issue with the professors? the quality and availability of the professors? the administration? the curriculum? their fellow students? the facilities? career planning resources? the availability and quality of the opportunities to get involved with research? practicum opportunities?

I know the question of perceived value is highly subjective, and I realize that this is probably not an answer that can be as easily categorized as I tried to do above, but I'm sure there are a lot of us who would appreciate hearing more about your experience (for one person's negative may be another person's positive). Thanks for your input!

parapluie · Mar 26, 2011

I went to the Columbia Admitted Students Day and it very unfortunately did not blow me away. It was the only Admitted Students Day I've gone to, but I felt it was very rushed and hectic, and slightly disorganized. I'm not sure how much this would have to do with the actual program experience itself, but it does ring an alarm bell considering how disorganized it has been throughout the admission process. Comparing with Michigan (I went for a day, spoke with a couple profs, very impressed, had a student tour me all over campus and Ann Arbor for five hours and she even had lunch with me), the Mailman location is a bit disheartening, as are the qualities of the facilities there.

I am in the SMS program in health promotion, and after speaking with the faculty and current students here, I feel like it's a very general program that is skill-based, oriented for helping you find jobs after. That's what we were consistent told to be the good thing about the program--its transferability. However, after speaking with some current students, it seems like you would get the most out of the program if you go into it knowing exactly what kind of job you'd like to obtain after. So you tailor your experiences yourself. Most students get onto the job-searching fairly fast, almost immediately after they arrive (some even during the summer before the program starts). Then it's all about how you choose to best package your experiences together. I feel that for someone like me, who has very little public health practice experience, and who is completely unfamiliar with NYC, it's going to be too short a time to figure out exactly what it is that I'd want/need to do. Before you know it, your MPH education is over.

Regarding faculty: two things concern me. One is that faculty members get the money solely through project/research funding, so how much they get paid depends on how much research they do, and this inevitably shifts their priorities. Ppl at Columbia will tell you they have plenty of resources to go around, but I've picked up a whole wide range of vibes about this, especially how "funding is tight". Another is that there is so little crosstalk between departments or even between different areas of study within a department, so like medical sociologists and ppl in health psychology don't talk that much, mostly because they're all so busy with getting funding, etc that there really is no time (the coordinator for health promotion actually said this is one of MAilman's weaknesses for sure). For something so interdisciplinary like public health, this really worries me, as I am really looking for a program that would facilitate cross-disciplinary discussion. If I had wanted to just know more about, say, medical anthropology, I would've gone into medical anthropology, not public health. Also keep in mind that they're revamping the program for 2012. Apparently it's to target this lack of cross-talk issue, by incorporating "modules" to your coursework. Half of the syllabi haven't even been developed yet and it's all very much up in the air at this point. Why would they changing the program if they see nothing wrong with the current one? Alarm bells go off. Some ppl there say it's because they want Mailman to stand out more, in terms of how unique the program is. Who knows.

Current students at the mix and mingle after were all very enthusiastic about the program--big surprise there.

I don't know....I was so set on coming to Columbia before and now I'm no longer sure. Again, it's all very subjective, who likes what kind of environment and stuff, so this program might just fit your needs specifically. I'm not sure if I'll get the full benefit of it for the $$$ it's asking for.

Russell88 · Mar 27, 2011

Those of you who went to Columbia's visit day, can you weigh in on the Career Services or other support staff and how supportive they were of the students, and how they worked with them on an individual level?

I've only had contact with department contacts in HPM and the admissions department, and I wouldn't say that they've been rude - they've been outright hostile.

I thought I was set on going to Columbia, but everything that I've learned throughout the admissions process, and afterward has been pushing me away.

I don't suppose someone could talk me off the ledge, so to speak.

parapluie · Mar 27, 2011

I met a couple students that day, and we all wanted to speak with the admin ppl more or less privately. We got together at the end of the day and agreed that it really varies from person to person, and we really didn't know what to make of it. We all felt that some ppl were extraordinarily warm, while others (ahem financial aid ahem) were rather hostile. I think it really comes down to how much this person must get his or her hands dirty, actually deal with students, etc. It's easy for the director of admissions and fin aid to be like "If you have any questions at all, just come talk to us, we'll make a note of it and become aware of it, and then do what's best for you 'cause you have our best interest at heart". Trust me I've been told this like a million times that day. But does HE actually do the dirty work? Or does he relay this responsibility to someone else? Ppl can be nice to you, but I think it's almost the efficiency of how well they actually get things done for you that matters more.

parapluie · Mar 27, 2011

I was reading the Yale student visit day thread just now, and I remembered some other stuff about Columbia. Will share them here.

1. I asked the coordinator for Health Promotion about where all the alumni are. And she admitted that it's not really a strength of the school to keep good records of alumni and their jobs, etc. They're currently working on that. Apparently students graduate and "poof they're gone". I guess on one hand it means they find jobs fast (she did mention how most grads find jobs really easily), but it also suggests a weaker alumni network.

2. Program flexibility. Oh god. Mailman tells you that you can take courses from other schools, the other campus, etc, but it requires a lot of paper work. Apparently there's this weird money thing about CUMC versus the main campus, so it's not really like, oh we're Columbia students so we can take courses from anywhere within the university. Plus it's not entirely feasible since you're paying on a course-by-course basis, not on a full-time/part-time basis, so that really limits your options if you want to take advantage of the overall Columbia education experience. That being said, the Health Promotion program (and I imagine most other tracks/programs) are very focused, in that you know exactly which courses to take, when to take them (they have sample timetables on those department handbooks, which most students follow), and you get in and get out in 1.5 years, having obtained what you came here for, hopefully.

Mailman in general just seems to love paperwork, like how you must submit requests, etc to switch tracks. It's understandable that this is the case, since it's such a large school, but at the same time it's a bit annoying. I think you will thrive here if you're the type to take a lot of initiative for everything you do (especially in comparison to everyone else), are great with discovering and securing new resources to support what you do, and do not let small set-backs get in the way of things.

Russell88 · Mar 27, 2011

That seems kind of nonsense, frankly.

Doesn't our aid only encompass what their expected "Cost of Attendance" would be? What's the point of the "Ivy Advantage" if you have to pay for additional schools/courses by each unit, but our aid for tuition/etc is limited? Wouldn't we be effectively paying 1,200 dollars per unit, and 3-4 units per class = 3600-4800 dollars for EACH class outside of the 45 unit curriculum?

I'm not really curious about the financial aid people so much as the career services department. I'm not sure what one's interaction with the financial aid department would be after they process your fafsa, etc. (I've never taken out loans before, I'm completely ignorant of this process). If someone could enlighten me, that would be great.

That bit about the alumni is really disappointing - schools like Emory tout their strong alumni network. (Supposedly) they know where most of their alumni go, and because of their strong pride and positivity toward their school, they're always willing to help current students with placements for practicum and job experience.

Is there EVEN a career services department at Mailman? Did you see any pluses to Mailman's program?

One other thing that I may have mentioned in another thread was that Mailman's program is a whole semester shorter than most other programs. 24 months is a short time to learn as much as you can about this discipline that (many of us) have had no academic training in before. However, this degree comes to define you - what you learn will be what you use, and the skills and knowledge you gain in the time at your Master's will be how you market yourself to employers.

The transition to moving into the workforce is incredibly daunting to me, someone who graduated into the job market 1 month after Lehman brothers went down. I'm not looking forward to braving the entire job search process, etc. on my own again.

parapluie · Mar 27, 2011

I didn't actually hear much about the Career Center when I was there, or maybe they did speak about it but I just tuned it out. It was a long day 🙂 I do know that they kept on emphasizing on "telling people" about your interests. Talk to ppl in Financial Aid about your interest in a certain area, and there have been cases where they were able to pull up someone's name if an agency contacts them asking if they have students who might be interested in a project with funding potential. It was a lot of emphasis on networking. They tell you to use your faculty advisor and beyond, for networking purposes. Talk to whoever might help you or whose work interests you. They told us there is an open door policy regarding faculty members. People seemed very approachable and friendly, minus the hang-up about funding.

Everyone there I've talked to mentioned how "well-connected" Mailman is, in terms of job opportunities. It really is one of the benefits for going there. Obviously, wherever you go, the more initiative you undertake the better the outcome will be. I think in the end it's really about which environment you function best in. I tend to get overwhelmed if there is too much thrown at me at once, and I adjust to hectic environments rather slowly, so New York....not the most facilitating place to be. Not sure about how Mailman is a whole semester longer? Maybe for HPM it's different?

If you look on their Career Services website, it seems like HPM students get amazing job opportunities. I'd say usually amongst public health departments, HPM is the one that gets paid the best, with signing bonuses and all, so I wouldn't worry too much about that if I were you 🙂

PHCU · Mar 27, 2011

To gear this thread back to UNC v Col instead of Col v Col, I went to both schools open houses and was far more impressed with UNC's than Columbia's.

Living in and loving NYC currently, I went into UNC's admitted students day hoping to hate it, but I loved it. I found the current students to be incredibly happy and the professors to be incredibly friendly and approachable. At Columbia, I found few students and professors to talk to. An open house is a chance to put your best face forward and UNC definitely went above and beyond while Columbia skated by.

For $25k in loans vs. $110k, I'll go with the #2 school over #5 any day. Plus, if I want to live in NYC after I graduate, I sure won't be able to do it while paying off a six figure loan.

Russell88 · Mar 27, 2011

Parapluie:

Whoops, I meant to say that Columbia is a whole semester SHORTER than most programs, not longer. I consider that a disadvantage, actually, because I want to take the time to feel out my interests and switch from Policy to Management track, if that ends up being what I want to do.

You're probably right that I need to take my time and feel out what my personal feelings are toward the program. I'm just really soured on Columbia after a series of poor experiences, but I'll be sure to enter the Admit Day with an open mind.

I'd be interested to hear what other schools you are considering/visiting and how you think they stack up.

PHCU - What department/track are you weighing for UNC and Columbia?

parapluie · Mar 28, 2011

(sorry I'm hijacking this thread and making it so much about Columbia! To weigh in on this: UNC has a great name in the field of health behavior and education. I applied but got rejected because I'm coming straight from undergrad, and I lacked work/field experience--in all fairness, if I had been accepted, I would go to UNC for sure, no questions asked)

Russell: I'm not sure about the program being a whole semester shorter 🙂 I think you can do two years, but not take a full course load per semester. Some courses are offered only in the fall or spring semester though, so that's something to keep in mind. The first year is probably heavier, for SMS-HP at least. They kept telling us that it's not a good idea to get a part-time job the first year, for this very reason. But then many students still do, so... 😀 I asked a current student in Pop Fam about the workload and course difficulty, and she said it's mostly a lot of reading, but not difficult reading. So it's really about time management. I'm less concerned about the duration of the program as I am about the number of courses of the program. Like you, I really want to take a bit of time and you know, "settle down" into the grad program and get a good feel for what I'd want to do after, since right now it's all in my head and I honestly have no idea.

My other two options are UMich for HBHE and Yale for SBS. I've visited Michigan the week before, and it was super, super impressive. Did you apply to their HPM program? It's supposed to be the best in the country 🙂 Ppl do practicums at McKinsey and stuff. Really awesome. I loved the HBHE department, but it's got a very different orientation in comparison to Columbia's, less social science and more science/analytical. I'm coming from a molecular bio background, so the kind of thinking the faculty have there mesh with mine more. I REALLY clicked with the profs there--we actually had some stimulating discussions about public health education and stuff. LOL. It just blew me away. The facilities were amazing--the buildings are quite new, and it's really a place you would look forward to being in, 8 hours a day or more. None of the Columbia grunginess. In comparison to NYC, naturally Ann Arbor is a lot more chill. You see a lot of ppl in sweatpants, t-shirts, and flip flops. A lot of students wear UM clothes--the school just has so much spirit!

Overall, I think Michigan's education is just more intense, and umm...rigorous. I personally think it's a good thing, although some ppl might not like it. Maybe they just want to augment their career to a higher level, gain hands-on experience, learn how to effectively procure resources in a big city environment, etc. I think Columbia's more for the latter. But for the money I'm paying, I'd like to think that above all else, I'm getting a good, solid education. And for that I'd pick Michigan over Columbia.

I'm visiting Yale this upcoming week. I'm a bit scared of New Haven, to be honest. I don't think Canada has anywhere as scary as that, not even some parts of Toronto. But the feedback about Yale has been great, so I'm willing to consider it despite the lower ranking, the smaller SBS department, etc. Apparently Yale's got more of an international presence, so I think if I were to take my MPH degree and come back to Canada to work, it'll help me lots. I've written to some students and alumni, and I get the feeling it's a very intimate program. LOTS of flexibility in terms of course selection, as ppl have mentioned before, and I think that would benefit me and maybe you as well.
Also, not sure if this applies to you, but the SBS program at Yale probably has a more epi orientation since it's within CDE, versus the more psych orientation at UM and the social science orientation at Columbia. Not sure which one I'm more suitable for at the moment, but I think I will know soon 🙂

Russell88 · Mar 28, 2011

I did not get into Michigan...thanks for rubbing salt in the wound 🙁

Just kidding, I know now that the program isn't for me. Michigan's HMP only has the reputation it does because of its highly regarded MHA program. I'm primarily interested in policy, so I don't think I'd be as happy at Michigan anyway (That's what I tell myself before I go to sleep at night). I do wish I had applied to more top programs though...

I'm assuming that I'll have the same opportunities with a Columbia degree as I would with a Michigan degree, with the added plus of living and doing internships in New York City and not thousands of miles from civilization. Just nod along.

I'm surprised Yale's in contention with the other programs you listed, though. I had essentially written off Yale because their program was SO small. Isn't it roughly 120 matriculants for the entire class? I liked the larger programs because I wanted to have a wider pool of people to share experiences and perspectives with - isn't that an equally important part of our graduate education?

Also, I couldn't imagine not working starting in say...October or November, wherever I end up. 2 years is a very short amount of time, and I feel like to separate ourselves from other candidates for these positions, the work experience is essential.

FMGuy · Mar 28, 2011

Here's a quick suggestion for you AJ414 -- consider calling UNC and asking to talk to alumni in your department who are currently working in NYC. You can listen to all of us... and there's a lot of collective wisdom in this group ... but at the same time, we're all kinda at the same boat (we're all in the process of applying to public health school) -- so not one of us has personal experience with what you're asking abt -- looking for a public health job (specifically in NYC).

And as a little disclaimer 😉 I've been thinking long and hard abt UNC vs Hopkins... and only after calling UNC/Hopkins (general admissions - as well as the specific departments) - and getting connected to ppl who have graduated from both programs (who are now at the type of job I aspire to be at 5 yrs from now) did I decide. So where did I choose? Let's just say... if you go with your "heart" we might very well be classmates next yr.... :idea:

AJ414 · Mar 29, 2011

sf318 said:
Hi AJ,

I've noticed that there are a lot of comments similar to this on this forum and the topic has been addressed sporadically here and there, yet no one provides any details about what it is exactly about Columbia that students are so unhappy with (and this seems like too big of a sample size to ignore!)...would you be willing to provide more specific details for those of us who do not have personal contacts to current or former students at Mailman and the NYC area?

Just to make some suggestions...is it an issue with the professors? the quality and availability of the professors? the administration? the curriculum? their fellow students? the facilities? career planning resources? the availability and quality of the opportunities to get involved with research? practicum opportunities?

I know the question of perceived value is highly subjective, and I realize that this is probably not an answer that can be as easily categorized as I tried to do above, but I'm sure there are a lot of us who would appreciate hearing more about your experience (for one person's negative may be another person's positive). Thanks for your input!

Sorry for the delay in response... just been caught up in a whirlwind jetsettting tour of PH schools! Relieved to almost be done thou... now I just need to pick! ahh!

Ok so heres the word on the street (Im no expert thou so please dont kill the messenger):

To quote your questions...is it an issue with the professors? The students Ive spoken with say that the teachers are hit or miss in terms of lecture but for the most part are really impressive outside of the classroom where they are running various organizations or acting as consultants on big name projects. I also heard that the grading system can be a little petty with people getting marked down for minor errors and formatting issues the quality and availability of the professors? with such high-profile staff, it just requires a little more patiences and effort to set up meetings the administration? this is a big point of contention with my interns ~ they have had all sorts of problems with scheduling classes, fulfilling certain graduation requirements, and depending on the department, completeing the required practicum hours the curriculum? everyone seems to hate the required core classes, but I feel thatd be pretty normal across schools considering there are topics which some people just wont find interesting their fellow students? they have always raved about the high quality of their cohort ~ all very smart and motivated, the facilities? its definitely not as nice as other schools and the location in the city SUCKS but its NYC and the public transportation here is great career planning resources? no clue the availability and quality of the opportunities to get involved with research? no clue practicum opportunities? this is one of the great benefits of the schools location ~ there is so much going on around here that if you want to do something and youre proactive about it, you can probably find it.

Hope this helps! If you have any more specific questions, I could probably put you in contact with some of them if that helps...

lepursuit · Mar 29, 2011

Has any spoken or dealt with faculty from the Earth Institute?

I'm disappointed to hear that it would not be so easy to take classes in other colleges since I was hoping to take some from SIPA. I'm also surprised to hear that the alumni network is not very strong. I'm guess that the "in" network they are referring to is the faculty? It sounds like the faculty are hard to get a hold of so how can students develop a strong enough connection with professors so that it would work to their advantage?

Thanks for everyone's great insight~!

parapluie · Mar 29, 2011

Russell88 said:
I did not get into Michigan...thanks for rubbing salt in the wound 🙁

Just kidding, I know now that the program isn't for me. Michigan's HMP only has the reputation it does because of its highly regarded MHA program. I'm primarily interested in policy, so I don't think I'd be as happy at Michigan anyway (That's what I tell myself before I go to sleep at night). I do wish I had applied to more top programs though...

I'm assuming that I'll have the same opportunities with a Columbia degree as I would with a Michigan degree, with the added plus of living and doing internships in New York City and not thousands of miles from civilization. Just nod along.

I'm surprised Yale's in contention with the other programs you listed, though. I had essentially written off Yale because their program was SO small. Isn't it roughly 120 matriculants for the entire class? I liked the larger programs because I wanted to have a wider pool of people to share experiences and perspectives with - isn't that an equally important part of our graduate education?

Also, I couldn't imagine not working starting in say...October or November, wherever I end up. 2 years is a very short amount of time, and I feel like to separate ourselves from other candidates for these positions, the work experience is essential.

(again, sorry for ppl who are considering UNC! I'm afraid I have little input for it...)

Russell: I'm nodding. Nodding. 🙂

I wasn't actually even that excited when I first heard back from Yale, since my interest isn't well-represented among the few faculty members in SBS, which really isn't even a department, and I'm sure their research tools are very epi-influenced since it's all within CDE. But the flexibility of the program kind of makes up for it, I think. It's really a trade-off, too, in terms of student body size. The bigger schools like Columbia, I feel, might have less student-student interaction because it's so big, whereas Yale students might have more opportunities to bond. I come from a huge undergrad institution, with a similar motto--"If you need something, do it yourself, don't expect anyone to hold your hand." On some level it creates a sense of wariness amongst students because there's so much competition, and each person for him/herself. I asked about if this is the case at Columbia, and the Pop Fam student said definitely NO. But I think it might seriously vary between departments, and Pop Fam is one that everybody who's in it seems to love.

As an international student who will be pressed to get a job almost immediately after graduation (for OPT to be in effect) now I am seriously considering Columbia, all dreams and passion for Michigan aside. Everybody needs to get paid, lol.

parapluie · Mar 29, 2011

lepursuit said:
Has any spoken or dealt with faculty from the Earth Institute?

I'm disappointed to hear that it would not be so easy to take classes in other colleges since I was hoping to take some from SIPA. I'm also surprised to hear that the alumni network is not very strong. I'm guess that the "in" network they are referring to is the faculty? It sounds like the faculty are hard to get a hold of so how can students develop a strong enough connection with professors so that it would work to their advantage?

Thanks for everyone's great insight~!

Regarding SIPA: me too actually (Jeffrey Sachs haha). It would be so cool! i think it is doable...you just gotta make the effort and go through the process, and try your best, talk to the right ppl and really push them.

sf318 · Mar 31, 2011

AJ,

Thanks so much to you for all of your invaluable insight! It really helps put things into perspective! I will be more forgiving when judging students' opinions of Mailman knowing for instance, that they are more unhappy with the administration (as this seems rather common at large institutions) rather than with say, their professors.

So, inquiring minds - or maybe just the SDN community and the followers of this thread 🙂 - want to know...what is your final decision?!?

-S

sf318 · Mar 31, 2011

parapluie said:
Regarding faculty: two things concern me. One is that faculty members get the money solely through project/research funding, so how much they get paid depends on how much research they do, and this inevitably shifts their priorities.

Does anyone know how common this is? I thought this was common at most, if not all, public universities and many private universities as well?

parapluie · Mar 31, 2011

sf318 said:
Does anyone know how common this is? I thought this was common at most, if not all, public universities and many private universities as well?

you're probably right, sf318, but I don't think this is the case at Michigan. Or at least when I visited the school, the profs there really emphasized how much effort they put into teaching, and ensuring a high teaching quality and you know, the general instructional component (versus research).

parapluie · Mar 31, 2011

All things aside, I'd be lying if i said I'm no longer considering Columbia. I think if Michigan were an Ivy League school and in a bigger town, then my decision would be a LOT easier 😛 Columbia...I think it might be a difficult two years, especially for someone not from the city of New York (I'm international too), but after you get out of the program and "make it", you'd think it was totally worth it. At least this is how I currently feel about my undergrad, which has the same kind of "hands-off" approach to its students. It just bothers me how while the school is hands-off in terms of student life there, the programs have so many restrictions. If the program itself was also really flexible, then I think Columbia would be ranked higher in terms of my decision-making. In the end it's really about how much you're willing to put up with all this potential of running into walls and closed doors, i think. More effort? Sure, but in real life nobody holds your hand anyway.

More deets: I asked current students and a lot of core courses, which have big sizes, have assignments marked by TAs, not profs, and these TAs can be either PhD students or 2nd year Mailman MPH students. They also emphasized that grad school isn't about marks, especially if you're looking for a job right after (they didn't mention PhD), and how Columbia doesn't let students fail or get D's (not very comforting).

They do get a lot of e-mails and announcements about jobs though. Career Center also present, apparently useful.

It can be difficult to take courses from outside your own department, but this varies by department.

They say student body is pretty cohesive...but then again it could depend on the department 🙂 (SCHOOL TOO LARGE!) It is normal for students to work ~20 hours per week. Less is recommended if you are carrying a full course load.

AJ414 · Apr 3, 2011

And the winner is..... *drum roll*.... COLUMBIA!!!

I am so excited to have finally decided where I'll be next year! The turning point for me was chatting with several directors of women's health programs who I aspire to work with one day and asking them their perspective if they were to get my future job application. All said that preference would be given to the Columbia graduate, not for the name or reputation, but rather because it indicated that I would be familiar working with the population and the NYC network.

I went home that day and researched possible part-time jobs and internships opportunities in NYC and five hours later and halfway through the Clinton Foundation internship application, it struck me that I couldnt walk away from this opportunity. (It was also 2am and I was slightly delirious) Forget the funky changing curriculum, the ****ty campus, the impressive faculty... the pure breadth of OPPORTUNITIES that come with going to school in NYC is what truly won me over. More likely than not, I probably will never have a job at the UN or the Clinton Foundation no matter where I go to school I go to BUT as a graduate student in this city, theres always the possibility for an internship and with that, a chance of getting my foot in the door.... a girl can dream right?

If you cant tell... I'm a little excited 😛

Russell88 · Apr 4, 2011

AJ414 said:
And the winner is..... *drum roll*.... COLUMBIA!!!

I am so excited to have finally decided where I'll be next year! The turning point for me was chatting with several directors of women's health programs who I aspire to work with one day and asking them their perspective if they were to get my future job application. All said that preference would be given to the Columbia graduate, not for the name or reputation, but rather because it indicated that I would be familiar working with the population and the NYC network.

I went home that day and researched possible part-time jobs and internships opportunities in NYC and five hours later and halfway through the Clinton Foundation internship application, it struck me that I couldnt walk away from this opportunity. (It was also 2am and I was slightly delirious) Forget the funky changing curriculum, the ****ty campus, the impressive faculty... the pure breadth of OPPORTUNITIES that come with going to school in NYC is what truly won me over. More likely than not, I probably will never have a job at the UN or the Clinton Foundation no matter where I go to school I go to BUT as a graduate student in this city, theres always the possibility for an internship and with that, a chance of getting my foot in the door.... a girl can dream right?

If you cant tell... I'm a little excited 😛

Congratulations on making your choice. You know, Chelsea Clinton (reportedly) went to Columbia/Mailman, too, so you might be able to work that angle into getting a job at the Clinton Foundation 😀

swaffles · Apr 9, 2011

I went to the Columbia Admitted Students Day on April 8th (yesterday). These are things I noticed:

1. Financial Aid team was very careful to take the time to explain everything and make sure that everyone was on track as to what to expect when it comes to taking loans and applying for certain scholarships. Also, apparently Columbia got some extra work-study money this year so they said that more students will have the opportunity to earn while studying.

2. Housing admin went over housing incredibly fast and didn't even give us contact information until someone decided to ask for it. For people who don't live in the area, such as me, most of the information went over their heads. However, this might have been because finaid took a lot of time going over their material. Overall, off-campus housing > on campus housing.

3. The separate departmental break downs were okay. The epidemiology one didn't really impress me mainly because I was already eager to switch into Sociomedical Sciences (into Health Promotion). However, the information presented was great! I never realized that epidemiologists had so many options and so many 'clusters' - social epidemiology, chronic disease epi, psychiatric+neuro epi, etc. Also, for someone like me who is really interested in neuroscience and mental health, Columbia is very well known for research in that field. I talked to some sociomedical students and they LOVED their department and the people they talked to. I was almost jealous. I wish I could have gone with them but my name tag had 'Epidemiology' written on it, ergh.

4. Lunch was cool but we didn't get to meet any faculty during that time. During a lot of the tour, we kept hearing that this professor was out of the country right now or that professor had to give a lecture somewhere else in the US, etc. I think this second admit day turned out to be much more informal than the first one? Maybe someone can correct me. The food was decent. Not a fan of rice pilaf but breathed in lots of brownies.

5. Coming from Newark, the Columbia medical campus was 100x better than what I'm used to but if you walk one street over to Broadway, you definitely see a slightly shady neighborhood in between the undergrad and medical campuses. However, walking through it, I didn't feel like it was particularly worrisome or anything. I just wish it could be a little more clean *sighs*.

6. As for cross-registering, I didn't get the impression that it'll be a huge problem, although I know that it's a case-by-case situation. Sometimes you have to ask a dean for permission and sometimes you have to ask the individual professor for permission to cross-register, just because there might not be any space left in the class. I think the trick at Columbia is to be on top of everything and make sure that YOU are taking care of everything that you want to do. I want to cross-register for some Journalism classes so I plan to seek out professors over the summer, if possible, and see how willing they are to admit non-journalism students into their classes.

Sad fact: I met a girl who majored in neuroscience at UCSD and I asked her if she had Ramachandran as a professor (a very famous and well published neurologist, had some best sellers). She said that she did and that he wasn't a very good professor at all because he was always off doing his own thing. That was depressing to find out.

Anyway, I think Columbia is the best option for me because it has everything I want in my grad school. If I can actually cross register and take courses in journalism at the best journalism program in the whole US (and possibly the world), then it just sweetens the deal.

Russell88 · Apr 11, 2011

swaffles said:
I went to the Columbia Admitted Students Day on April 8th (yesterday). These are things I noticed:

1. Financial Aid team was very careful to take the time to explain everything and make sure that everyone was on track as to what to expect when it comes to taking loans and applying for certain scholarships. Also, apparently Columbia got some extra work-study money this year so they said that more students will have the opportunity to earn while studying.

2. Housing admin went over housing incredibly fast and didn't even give us contact information until someone decided to ask for it. For people who don't live in the area, such as me, most of the information went over their heads. However, this might have been because finaid took a lot of time going over their material. Overall, off-campus housing > on campus housing.

3. The separate departmental break downs were okay. The epidemiology one didn't really impress me mainly because I was already eager to switch into Sociomedical Sciences (into Health Promotion). However, the information presented was great! I never realized that epidemiologists had so many options and so many 'clusters' - social epidemiology, chronic disease epi, psychiatric+neuro epi, etc. Also, for someone like me who is really interested in neuroscience and mental health, Columbia is very well known for research in that field. I talked to some sociomedical students and they LOVED their department and the people they talked to. I was almost jealous. I wish I could have gone with them but my name tag had 'Epidemiology' written on it, ergh.

4. Lunch was cool but we didn't get to meet any faculty during that time. During a lot of the tour, we kept hearing that this professor was out of the country right now or that professor had to give a lecture somewhere else in the US, etc. I think this second admit day turned out to be much more informal than the first one? Maybe someone can correct me. The food was decent. Not a fan of rice pilaf but breathed in lots of brownies.

5. Coming from Newark, the Columbia medical campus was 100x better than what I'm used to but if you walk one street over to Broadway, you definitely see a slightly shady neighborhood in between the undergrad and medical campuses. However, walking through it, I didn't feel like it was particularly worrisome or anything. I just wish it could be a little more clean *sighs*.

6. As for cross-registering, I didn't get the impression that it'll be a huge problem, although I know that it's a case-by-case situation. Sometimes you have to ask a dean for permission and sometimes you have to ask the individual professor for permission to cross-register, just because there might not be any space left in the class. I think the trick at Columbia is to be on top of everything and make sure that YOU are taking care of everything that you want to do. I want to cross-register for some Journalism classes so I plan to seek out professors over the summer, if possible, and see how willing they are to admit non-journalism students into their classes.

Sad fact: I met a girl who majored in neuroscience at UCSD and I asked her if she had Ramachandran as a professor (a very famous and well published neurologist, had some best sellers). She said that she did and that he wasn't a very good professor at all because he was always off doing his own thing. That was depressing to find out.

Anyway, I think Columbia is the best option for me because it has everything I want in my grad school. If I can actually cross register and take courses in journalism at the best journalism program in the whole US (and possibly the world), then it just sweetens the deal.

Just some thoughts: Are you prepared to pay for the journalism courses out of pocket, in the event that they won't let you use those journalism courses toward your elective?

Are you going to accept in Epi, even though you don't know if you'll be able to transfer into SMS?

swaffles · Apr 11, 2011

Russell88 said:
Just some thoughts: Are you prepared to pay for the journalism courses out of pocket, in the event that they won't let you use those journalism courses toward your elective?

Are you going to accept in Epi, even though you don't know if you'll be able to transfer into SMS?

Yep, it's expensive but I only plan to take one or two courses. Also, I don't mind having to do Epi, even though SMS would be a better fit for me. I have a good feeling about being able to switch, though - my skills are definitely more suited towards SMS, from what I've read and seen.

Zoonosinoid · Apr 11, 2011

PHCU said:
To gear this thread back to UNC v Col instead of Col v Col, I went to both schools open houses and was far more impressed with UNC's than Columbia's.

Living in and loving NYC currently, I went into UNC's admitted students day hoping to hate it, but I loved it. I found the current students to be incredibly happy and the professors to be incredibly friendly and approachable. At Columbia, I found few students and professors to talk to. An open house is a chance to put your best face forward and UNC definitely went above and beyond while Columbia skated by.

For $25k in loans vs. $110k, I'll go with the #2 school over #5 any day. Plus, if I want to live in NYC after I graduate, I sure won't be able to do it while paying off a six figure loan.

It was a close call for me too, but this sort of sums it up, UNC gave me a favorable impression when I visited as they were super friendly, while Columbia seemed less so, but perhaps because of how busy the place is. In terms of tuition, I also don't have a $100,000 bonus to use to pay tuition, so money was a factor, but it wasn't the deciding factor. The advantages of being in New York and having the Ivy name are tempting.😎

mikan · Mar 5, 2012

Reviving an old thread!

Is anyone going through the same dilemma: UNC vs Columbia? 😕😕😕

I'm in for UNC MPH in Maternal & Child Health and Columbia MPH in Population and Family Health with a certificate in Child, Youth, and Family Health. I am an international student. Living in the US will be a totally new experience for me, very excited!

Any insights from current students and alumni? Can you share a little more about your experience studying at UNC/ Columbia? E.g.
- the availability/ accessibility of the professors and admin staff,
- the opportunities of cross-Department/ School interaction (with faculty members/ students
- the flexibility and rigor of the program
- the diversity of the student body and the socialization bit
- the opportunities to get involved with research projects, e.g. getting an hourly-paid Research Assistant position
- the field practicum opportunities
- career planning resources (in particular for International students who may want to stay in the US after graduation)

Would appreciate hearing about your experience! Many thanks!!

Lenoch · Mar 8, 2012

Urban

mikan · Mar 8, 2012

Lenoch said:
I live in Manhattan. I just wanted let people know that Columbia's med campus (which is where Mailman is) is waaayy uptown (~170th street). The image people usually conjure when they think NYC is midtown/downtown Manhattan (~SoHo-to-40s street).

What does this mean? Well, I'd suggest visiting. Columbia is in an area that is not very pleasant to live. Think grafitti and concrete projects. But maybe you like in these areas.

Not able to visit (I'm thousand miles away), so thanks for this information!

Emsy · Mar 8, 2012

mikan said:
Not able to visit (I'm thousand miles away), so thanks for this information!

It's a very urban area and it doesn't look quite as nice as the Morningside campus.

During the weekdays, there are a lot of people in that area from the traffic of the hospital, the medical school, etc. From my times being up in that neighborhood at nighttime, it can get deserted and you may see some sketchy people.

Does that mean expect to get mugged or be a victim of crime if you come to live in NYC, absolutely not, just be aware.

I was born in NYC so I'm used to being in a huge city and that far uptown is not that picture-esque.

Actually it's sort of why I am considering Boston since I prefer a defined campus.

mikan · Mar 20, 2012

Emsy said:
It's a very urban area and it doesn't look quite as nice as the Morningside campus.

During the weekdays, there are a lot of people in that area from the traffic of the hospital, the medical school, etc. From my times being up in that neighborhood at nighttime, it can get deserted and you may see some sketchy people.

Does that mean expect to get mugged or be a victim of crime if you come to live in NYC, absolutely not, just be aware.

I was born in NYC so I'm used to being in a huge city and that far uptown is not that picture-esque.

Actually it's sort of why I am considering Boston since I prefer a defined campus.

Thanks Emsy! So are you down to BU and Columbia?

Emsy · Mar 20, 2012

mikan said:
Thanks Emsy! So are you down to BU and Columbia?

Yes, I am not sending in any deposits until I visit the schools on their respective admitted student days in April.

While I would prefer to stay in NYC as all my family is here, I wouldn't mind living somewhere else for a change of scenery. My decision will probably also hinge a lot on which school I could picture myself not being miserable at.

mikan · Mar 20, 2012

Emsy said:
My decision will probably also hinge a lot on which school I could picture myself not being miserable at.

My exact sentiments!

nkruger · May 17, 2012

Hi Zoonosinoid!

Your post is from 2011 so I am wondering where you ended up and if you are liking the program? I am currently choosing between UNC and Columbia both Policy and Management departments, and am wondering if you have any insight.

Thanks!

Zoonosinoid said:
It was a close call for me too, but this sort of sums it up, UNC gave me a favorable impression when I visited as they were super friendly, while Columbia seemed less so, but perhaps because of how busy the place is. In terms of tuition, I also don't have a $100,000 bonus to use to pay tuition, so money was a factor, but it wasn't the deciding factor. The advantages of being in New York and having the Ivy name are tempting.😎

The UNC vs. Columbia Match-Up

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