Was told by a crazy lady that a DO is like an "ND"

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  1. Attending Physician
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Yep, I was told today that an Osteopathic physician is like a 'doctor' of naturopathy with a larger scope of practice... Yep... OMG, help us all....
​
 
*facepalm* What some people don't know. I had to correct my mom when she told me that chiropractors were just DOs who did OMM only practices.
 
Yeah. I hate this. A friend of mine was shocked to learn I'm not into aromatherapy since I applied to osteopathic schools where they do that "new age stuff." aargh!!
 
Ha, my parents still don't know what a DO is. Pretty sure my dad is still telling folks I will be an MD. Of course it took a few years into my PA career for my folks to know what that was...and my mom is a critical care nurse and my dad has seen PAs for much of his primary care over the years...
 
nd's have been plagiarizing do's for a while and they want legal recognition like do's.
the public is ignorant - recent comments about the florida anesthesiologist in the news:
anesthesiologists generally are not well respected, as they are nominally physicians
Posted 1 hour ago

First of all, anethesiologists should NOT be calling themselves doctors, AT ALL! THAT is a disgrace to the profession of medicine.
Posted 4 hours ago
​
See: Has Anyone considered N.D. or Naturopathic schools?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=916199
 
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OMFG...
Yeah, this woman said "Oh, in Oregon and in Washington, Naturopaths are well respected primary care physicians...with more training than an MD. I compared the careers due to the holistic aspect. http://www.aanmc.org/naturopathic-medicine/nd-primary-care-provider.php"

yes, clearly you have MORE training than an MD... Yepppers... and she can cure all kinds of stuff with her herbal remedies!! UGH!!!
 
tankgunner said:
anesthesiologists generally are not well respected, as they are nominally physicians
Posted 1 hour ago

First of all, anethesiologists should NOT be calling themselves doctors, AT ALL! THAT is a disgrace to the profession of medicine.
Posted 4 hours ago
​
Click to expand...

Just to play the devil's advocate, anesthesiologists used to just be nurses that knocked somebody out for the doctor. Now the M.D. anesthesiologists hate the nurse anesthetists :laugh:
 
Shnurek said:
Just to play the devil's advocate, anesthesiologists used to just be nurses that knocked somebody out for the doctor. Now the M.D. anesthesiologists hate the nurse anesthetists :laugh:
Click to expand...

No.
 
Shnurek said:
Just to play the devil's advocate, anesthesiologists used to just be nurses that knocked somebody out for the doctor. Now the M.D. anesthesiologists hate the nurse anesthetists :laugh:
Click to expand...

how about comparing an anesthesiologist to an optometrist?
 
tankgunner said:
nd's have been plagiarizing do's for a while and they want legal recognition like do's.
the public is ignorant - recent comments about the florida anesthesiologist in the news:
anesthesiologists generally are not well respected, as they are nominally physicians
Posted 1 hour ago

First of all, anethesiologists should NOT be calling themselves doctors, AT ALL! THAT is a disgrace to the profession of medicine.
Posted 4 hours ago
​
See: Has Anyone considered N.D. or Naturopathic schools?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=916199
Click to expand...

1) why are people hating on anesthesiologists?
2) nothing about what NDs do is actual medicine as opposed to DOs so I dont understand why they want that same recognition.... they have as much right to practice in a hospital as a juggler...

The issue with the OP in the thread you linked is the "similarly trained" claim.... Per grades/scores these kids entering nd schools (I refuse to capitalize the Dude of Naturopathic Medical-ish practice (title adaption also intentional)) are just ever so slightly on the positive side of short bus..... I apologize for the associated offensiveness of that comment but it is the best way to convey my feelings (apologies to those with mental impairments and their families/loved ones, not to nds). Sure the material presented may be the same. It is simply unreasonable to assume these people walk away with the same understanding as true medical students. They simply could not accept their "clinical" training if they had a shred of the level of understanding we have. The ideals are mutually exclusive.
 
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Shnurek said:
Just to play the devil's advocate, anesthesiologists used to just be nurses that knocked somebody out for the doctor. Now the M.D. anesthesiologists hate the nurse anesthetists :laugh:
Click to expand...

And your doctor used to also be your barber. While there may be a point in there somewhere, it isn't a good one
 
Shnurek said:
Just to play the devil's advocate, anesthesiologists used to just be nurses that knocked somebody out for the doctor. Now the M.D. anesthesiologists hate the nurse anesthetists :laugh:
Click to expand...


Yep kicked nurses right out...glad they did seeing as anesthesia knowledge has skyrocketed and deaths related to anesthesia have been drastically reduced thanks to those pesky MDs nearly perfecting the art. Imagine where we would be if that never happened..."now where did I put that ether rag..." says the OR nurse
 
Subaru said:
Yep kicked nurses right out...glad they did seeing as anesthesia and deaths related to anesthesia has been drastically reduced ever since thanks to those pesky MDs nearly perfecting the art of anesthesia.
Click to expand...

And yet the jcrna seems to find otherwise 🙄
 
SBB2016 said:
OMFG...
Yeah, this woman said "Oh, in Oregon and in Washington, Naturopaths are well respected primary care physicians...with more training than an MD. I compared the careers due to the holistic aspect. http://www.aanmc.org/naturopathic-medicine/nd-primary-care-provider.php"

yes, clearly you have MORE training than an MD... Yepppers... and she can cure all kinds of stuff with her herbal remedies!! UGH!!!
Click to expand...
So, she thinks ND's are more prepared than MDs and DOs?
 
you too can get your nd education in the organic section of whole foods
 
Overall healthy suburbanites are the only reason ND is actually a thing....
 
Oddly this probably means she respects DOs more than MDs 🙂

I know all about the OR/WA thing...grew up in OR, educated and practiced half my PA career in well-off western Oregon--specifically the wine country. Lovely place to live. Practice was a bit dull with all those worried well who had good health insurance that actually covered ND visits (had a few shared pts with a couple of local NDs too). I swear those pts would never take anything I said seriously until they ran it by their naturopath and got the OK.

I think NDs have their place. I have a few horror stories though...let's see, the 41-yo mother of 4 (youngest about 18 mos) who had been treated by her naturopath for a breast mass for over a year...thought it was persistent mastitis, apparently had a negative mammogram early on...but never a surgical consult & biopsy for this obviously malignant grossly misshapen rock-hard breast (as it was on the day I saw her in urgent care). Fantastic breast surgeon got her in the next morning to have a look. Unfortunately since it was urgent care I never heard the outcome. I wonder about that woman sometimes and hope she made it.
 
Anecdotal story about NDs that proves nothing: My uncle refused to go to any doctor other than his ND. He was slowly dying from cancer after his ND tested him using a machine that told him he did not have cancer (something like a rife machine...). He died about a year later from cancer.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Anecdotal story about NDs that proves nothing: My uncle refused to go to any doctor other than his ND. He was slowly dying from cancer after his ND tested him using a machine that told him he did not have cancer (something like a rife machine...). He died about a year later from cancer.
Click to expand...

Was the ND liable for the misdiagnosis?
 
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SpecterGT260 said:
Was the ND liable for the misdiagnosis?
Click to expand...

Probably, but no one pursued it. He was big into the "if God wants to call me home, I shouldn't question His plan." That really upset my grandparents who told him that they would fly him to Mayo and pay for his treatment, but he refused, so it didn't matter what the ND said.
 
She DOES think that ND's are more prepared than MDs because she thinks that because an ND has more courses in herbal crap and has 'similar' classes that they have 'more' training... Yes, I am certain the biochem, physio, pharma, etc that they teach in ND school is JUST like what they teach in MD/DO schools... uuhhhhuhhhh crazy woman...

Both of the cancer stories make me really sad, and just prove my point about how BS it is... These people shouldn't be primary care practitioners... if a mass grows, it needs to be checked, even if it was negative before... come on... I have to get screened all the stupid time because I have benign cysts... yay fun... but at least I know what I have!!!
 
SBB2016 said:
OMFG...
Yeah, this woman said "Oh, in Oregon and in Washington, Naturopaths are well respected primary care physicians...with more training than an MD. I compared the careers due to the holistic aspect. http://www.aanmc.org/naturopathic-medicine/nd-primary-care-provider.php"

yes, clearly you have MORE training than an MD... Yepppers... and she can cure all kinds of stuff with her herbal remedies!! UGH!!!
Click to expand...

My pharmacy school brought in a naturopath for a lecture on alternative medicine and belief systems. She actually had the audacity to claim that her hours in education in basic sciences were greater than those offered in places like Harvard Medical School. Her basic premise was that she not only took more basic science hours, but that she treated the "whole person".

She then went on to tell us about homeopathic treatments she commonly used and the snickering grew louder and louder. I nearly laughed out loud when she claimed that the reason homeopathy "works" is that there are alternative forms of physics we don't yet understand...lots of entertainment, but also scary to think patients can see these people thinking they offer the same or superior care to an MD or DO!
 
Rx MPLS said:
My pharmacy school brought in a naturopath for a lecture on alternative medicine and belief systems. She actually had the audacity to claim that her hours in education in basic sciences were greater than those offered in places like Harvard Medical School. Her basic premise was that she not only took more basic science hours, but that she treated the "whole person".

She then went on to tell us about homeopathic treatments she commonly used and the snickering grew louder and louder. I nearly laughed out loud when she claimed that the reason homeopathy "works" is that there are alternative forms of physics we don't yet understand...lots of entertainment, but also scary to think patients can see these people thinking they offer the same or superior care to an MD or DO!
Click to expand...

ive said this in other threads in slightly different context....

the credit hours a school assigns to its courses are largely meaningless and arbitrary. We could call anatomy 60 hours/semester as easily as we could call it 0.3 and anything in between.

It has precisely zero bearing on how much schooling you have had in that area.

and these alternative schools inflate their course loads.
 
I think a huge part of the problem with people taking these quacks seriously is that the scientific understanding/critical thinking skills of the general population in pretty much zero. When these NDs tell patients all of these "scientific" explanations for their crap, the people go, "Ooooooooo." Then they make the patients feel all warm and fuzzy and never cause them any discomfort - so this stuff must be good, right?! Education in this country needs to put much more emphasis on critical thinking.
 
that and there is a hugely propagated belief that natural=better....

sorry to break it to you, but almost everything that is "natural" is brutal, stressful, debilitating, and often difficult to survive..... if "natural" = better in terms of health, darwin really missed the mark :eyebrow:
 
you can get an nd degree online:
http://www.kcnh.org/doctorate-degree-programs/77-doctor-of-naturopathy-nd.html

run by people like this:
SCHOOL OF NATURAL HEALTH SCIENCE
Paul Krolick, N.D., Ph.D.
In addition to co-founding Krolick Wellness with his wife, who is a chiropractor, Dr. Krolick maintains a wellness center in South Carolina. He also leads an educational vaccination program giving anyone with interest the facts on getting vaccinated and how legally one can avoid them if they so desire.
http://www.kcnh.org/faculty.html
 
no degree attained online is doctorate level. period.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
that and there is a hugely propagated belief that natural=better....

sorry to break it to you, but almost everything that is "natural" is brutal, stressful, debilitating, and often difficult to survive..... if "natural" = better in terms of health, darwin really missed the mark :eyebrow:
Click to expand...

It's just another issue with not thinking something over enough. For instance, without such "unnatural" things such as pasteurization, antibiotics, and vaccination, how many of us would already be dead due to infectious disease? How many people would live past their 30's and 40's? These are simple questions people could ask themselves, but they don't. BRING ON THE RAW MILK!!!
 
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I've read that NDs can prescribe medicine in some states! Still nothing close to a DO
 
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Cinclus said:
It's just another issue with not thinking something over enough. For instance, without such "unnatural" things such as pasteurization antibiotics, and vaccination, how many of us would already be dead due to infectious disease? How many people would live past their 30's and 40's? These are simple questions people could ask themselves, but they don't. BRING ON THE RAW MILK!!!
Click to expand...

But... Have you ever had raw milk ice cream before....?!?
 
Cinclus said:
I think a huge part of the problem with people taking these quacks seriously is that the scientific understanding/critical thinking skills of the general population in pretty much zero. When these NDs tell patients all of these "scientific" explanations for their crap, the people go, "Ooooooooo." Then they make the patients feel all warm and fuzzy and never cause them any discomfort - so this stuff must be good, right?! Education in this country needs to put much more emphasis on critical thinking.
Click to expand...

👍👍
I think, if I knew you in real life, we would be great friends!
 
Cinclus said:
It's just another issue with not thinking something over enough. For instance, without such "unnatural" things such as pasteurization antibiotics, and vaccination, how many of us would already be dead due to infectious disease? How many people would live past their 30's and 40's? These are simple questions people could ask themselves, but they don't. BRING ON THE RAW MILK!!!
Click to expand...

When it comes to the public perception I think it's just a lack of understanding. So many people are anxious to go from burgers to fruitatarians or to go organic on every single thing they eat or completely eliminate medications and vaccines.

People don't understand that the middle ground is really where it's at for these types of things. Yeah, less hormones and crap in your food is good. Yeah, medicating yourself for every stuffy nose isn't smart but neither is declining the MMR vaccine or allowing the flu to "run its course" during pregnancy.

I think people just want a clear yes/no black/white answer but in reality, health is not black/white.

OK, that's the end of my philosophical rant!
 
Cinclus said:
I think a huge part of the problem with people taking these quacks seriously is that the scientific understanding/critical thinking skills of the general population in pretty much zero. When these NDs tell patients all of these "scientific" explanations for their crap, the people go, "Ooooooooo." Then they make the patients feel all warm and fuzzy and never cause them any discomfort - so this stuff must be good, right?! Education in this country needs to put much more emphasis on critical thinking.
Click to expand...
This is so true. And nurses now want to take the watered down version of the USMLE and practice medicine indepedantly. Scary! 😱
 
Yeah, this is scary to me for sure... I saw that there are online programs, and even the one that I saw that was in person, in IL, seemed more like a NP+herbology than a doctoral level education... NOT impressed in any way... Sadly my sister believes in this ****, so it is a point of contention every time we meet...
 
True disclosure: about 10 yr ago I looked into one of those online ND programs. Thought it would be great to know so much herbal medicine on top of the allopathic medicine I already knew. But just couldn't do it...now I am in DO school 🙂 almost as good, right? 😉
 
SBB2016 said:
Yeah, this is scary to me for sure... I saw that there are online programs, and even the one that I saw that was in person, in IL, seemed more like a NP+herbology than a doctoral level education... NOT impressed in any way... Sadly my sister believes in this ****, so it is a point of contention every time we meet...
Click to expand...

At a recent gathering with some extended family, my Mom's aunt told me about how she does Reiki healing (she's currently being trained in it), and how it even works over the phone! Apparently, you can gently lay hands upon the person to heal them, but this new, advanced kind she does can heal without any contact! Amazing! I subtly raised an eyebrow and said, "I guess I'll have some competition as a future MD." We all chuckled, but I screamed in terror on the inside and internally made this face: 😱
 
SpecterGT260 said:
that and there is a hugely propagated belief that natural=better....

sorry to break it to you, but almost everything that is "natural" is brutal, stressful, debilitating, and often difficult to survive..... if "natural" = better in terms of health, darwin really missed the mark :eyebrow:
Click to expand...

a6ee1ed1.gif
 
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tankgunner said:
you can get an nd degree online:
http://www.kcnh.org/doctorate-degree-programs/77-doctor-of-naturopathy-nd.html
Click to expand...


I think I'll just pick up a ND degree on the side...it's only $5,100.00 total. While I'm at it I might as well get a Doctor of Homeopathic Medicine ($3,600.00), MPH ($4,500.00), Doctor of Naturopathic Psychology ($4,875.00), and Doctor of Science in Clinical Nutrition ($5,100.00).

Oh and maybe a PhD too ($6,000.00).

And I am doing it all online.

Don't be jealous because I have four doctorates and a masters for the price you're paying for one year of medical school. Suckers!
 
tankgunner said:
nd's have been plagiarizing do's for a while and they want legal recognition like do's.
the public is ignorant - recent comments about the florida anesthesiologist in the news:
anesthesiologists generally are not well respected, as they are nominally physicians
Posted 1 hour ago

First of all, anethesiologists should NOT be calling themselves doctors, AT ALL! THAT is a disgrace to the profession of medicine.
Posted 4 hours ago
​
See: Has Anyone considered N.D. or Naturopathic schools?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=916199
Click to expand...

I like that the OP on that thread is now banned and the first reply to the thread is simply "No". That's awesome! 👍
 
EyeHeart said:
I've read that NDs can prescribe medicine in some states! Still nothing close to a DO
Click to expand...

I read that NDs harvest orphan organs for their remedies. Second ingredient after eye of newt... true story
 
naturopathic osce:
http://www.washingtoninstituteofnaturalmedicine.com/w/definitions/examdef.asp
Iridology
Iridology.jpg

Iridology is the analysis of the patterns in the iris of the eye. These patterns indicate the levels of energy within the body. This study reveals the client’s general constitution, low or trapped energy in organs, cleansing issues, and areas needing nutritional balance.

Tongue Observation
tongueobservation.jpg

Tongue observation shows signs of imbalance in the oriental meridian systems. It identifies how energy is being burned in the interior systems. It also indicates how nutrients are being utilized and the need for water and fiber.

Pulse Reading
pulsereading.jpg

Pulse reading evaluates the energy flow through the kidney, liver, heart, spleen, and lung meridians. It indicates the need for possible release of trapped energy or the need for energy stimulation on these meridians.
 
tankgunner said:
naturopathic osce:
http://www.washingtoninstituteofnaturalmedicine.com/w/definitions/examdef.asp
Iridology
Iridology.jpg

Iridology is the analysis of the patterns in the iris of the eye. These patterns indicate the levels of energy within the body. This study reveals the client's general constitution, low or trapped energy in organs, cleansing issues, and areas needing nutritional balance.

Tongue Observation
tongueobservation.jpg

Tongue observation shows signs of imbalance in the oriental meridian systems. It identifies how energy is being burned in the interior systems. It also indicates how nutrients are being utilized and the need for water and fiber.

Pulse Reading
pulsereading.jpg

Pulse reading evaluates the energy flow through the kidney, liver, heart, spleen, and lung meridians. It indicates the need for possible release of trapped energy or the need for energy stimulation on these meridians.
Click to expand...

Group theory, missed ur comic. Awesome 🙂

And holy sweet baby jeebus.... The above not only hurts me on a medical level, but I'm sure the misappropriation of the term "energy" gave at least one physicist a stroke.... ND medicine does no harm my ass.....
 
SpecterGT260 said:
And holy sweet baby jeebus.... The above not only hurts me on a medical level, but I'm sure the misappropriation of the term "energy" gave at least one physicist a stroke.... ND medicine does no harm my ass.....
Click to expand...

Bahaha I lol'd :laugh:
 
As one person told me, it's amazing how these people blatantly disregard science and reasoning... Kinda strange that these same people aren't affiliated with the same political groups who do that... Either way, my sister gets ANGRY because no one in my family will go to her 'ceremonies' where she 'cleanses her soul' with this **** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca after an argument about how Eastern 'medicine' is useful/not I asked her to name ANY disease that has been CURED by herbs/etc... Of course this is where the convos turn ugly and she gets mad and hangs up or storms out... I always ask how the Chinese would have fixed my thyroid or my dad's diabetes... still haven't heard an answer on that...
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Anecdotal story about NDs that proves nothing: My uncle refused to go to any doctor other than his ND. He was slowly dying from cancer after his ND tested him using a machine that told him he did not have cancer (something like a rife machine...). He died about a year later from cancer.
Click to expand...

After hearing a slew of anecdotal stories like this, it proves that NDs should be able to be charged with involuntary manslaughter when they pull this crap.
 
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