Current UMich students - is this true?

I have no idea if it is true or not, but I ended up choosing a UC (instate) over Mich for that reason (plus $ and sun). I think it's a consideration for any out of state school, which makes sense since a residency program will be more familiar with your school and it will be easier for you to make connections within state. That being said the student's comment seemed a bit exagerated.

I'll respond to this in the pre-Allo forum..........

This is just going to be my personal impression of things. I just read that feedback, and to be brief, there is some truth along with all the exaggeration.

Re: match list - Last year's match list was not very impressive at all. He is right about that. However, the one from two years ago was VERY strong. I don't remember if I've seen any from before that though.

Re: out-of-state placement - I think he is right that Michigan is slightly misleading. You tend to get mixed messages. During the interview, you are told of the residency director's ratings. When you talk to residency directors at UMich (they hold information sessions on specialties), they will tell you that you are very advantaged. However, when you talk to the career counselor, he advises you to hedge your bets a little if you plan to live in either coasts. Who knows, that just might be the counselor's own pessimism. I advise you to look at both year's matchlists and decide for yourself. Call Eric Middleton and specifically ask him about your chances at the coasts and see what he says. It'll be interesting to see if his doom and gloom message changes for the students who have yet to matriculate.

Overall, like many have said, it's your personal accomplishments that are going to be the most important in getting a residency. I think people can exaggerate the role of school reputation in helping them get a residency. Sure, being from Harvard/Hopkins can help you a little, but that's going to be outweighed very heavily by your own personal characteristics. You should think more about how each school can work with your learning style and develop your academic interests. That being said, will coming from Michigan help you? The answer to that is without a doubt, "Yes", but the degree to which that benefits us is probably not very much. Maybe that really was the intent of Dr. Middleton's message... just to not depend on the school too much for your placement.

However, one thing you should definitely consider is that residency placement is a lot of about who you know. Obviously, if you do rotations in NY/LA, you will meet doctors who work there, who know local colleagues at the various NY/LA hospitals, and so on. That is a big advantage. Michigan has that local advantage too, but unfortunately, not many of the Midwest schools are very competitive, so it's kind of "wasted" here.

Re: Interviewers and tour guides being hand picked... that's not true. I think everyone who applies as a tour guide or lunch speaker gets to do it. I never applied though. I think he is right about what he is implying though... these people want to present the school in the best light and actively recruit. I don't think that's much different than any other school though.

Re: 3rd year grades - I obviously have no idea about 3rd year grades, but in my own personal experience as an M1, it is very demanding here. They expect you to do well, and while I don't think that's anything unique to UMich, it's much harder to distinguish yourself from other students because, quite honestly, all of them are pretty smart.

I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions. Also, try asking some of the other students, because this is just one student's perspective.

you are going to get people who are unhappy at every school, keep that in mind. my interpretation was that he was especially bitter about 3rd year....it's so much more qualitative/subjective/political and i'm sure it can piss you off...we'll see how it goes next year.

i was talking about how 3rd year is with an attending that i'm shadowing....
he said (paraphrased) "yeah that 3rd year student X,...he's a good guy and all..but how well do i know him? or his abilities? it's kind of a crap shoot...."
me: "yeah i bet there's alot of ass-kissing and politics"
him: "definetly."

oh well. maybe that what the shelf exams are for...to bring a little quantitative...

Her is the things I heard about Umich from varous source, some better than others:

1) Their match list is normally amazing as far as specialties (from the 2 match list's I have looked at). I don't know how well they match at the coasts, but you definately will get a good residency. They have 9 Derm spots in their program and a bunch of other home school advantages to be considered

2) I've also heard that they kill their third year students. I don't know much else about that.

3) If you know that you want to practice in a certain area, and you get accepted to a school in that area, if you go to that school you are almost gaurunteed the ability to stay in that area. That's a fact with any school. You even tend to get favored by other schools in the local area because it is easier to do rotations at those hospitals even if you didn't rotate into what you wanted to go into. (The res director at Cedar Sinai told me that they would track down the resident who knew the med student in a rotation for Y residency even if they were applying for X residency)

While a lot of the things the poster said was right, I think a lot of it has to do with his problems he is having right now. But every school misleads you on the interviews, so you have to watch out.

I'd ignore that students complaints. Every med school has a certain percentage of students who are on academic probation or in danger of failing. Some of those students just take out their difficulties on their school. Most schools have approximately the same percentage of students every year scoring honors or A's in the clinical or preclinical years. Where you go to school will only get you so far in terms of residency matching, the lowest student at Harvard definitely has a better chance at matching then the lowest student at State University, but if you do well at State University, you will do well when it comes time to match. It's similar to your undergrad experience in that sense I suppose. U Mich has an above average rep in the medical academic community and having the name on your CV certainly won't hurt you. I would not advise out of staters to spend a lot of extra money going there over their own state school though, since I don't think that they are on the level of a school like Hopkins or Harvard whose rep might justify spending the extra cash depending on your career plans.

how do we know if that's really a UM student or a bitter reject trying to badmouth UM?

Originally posted by chef
how do we know if that's really a UM student or a bitter reject trying to badmouth UM?

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Some of the things he said is specific enough that would make me believe that he is a UM student. Very few applicants would know that much information about a certain school with a few exceptions.

i agree with jalby.

ckent I wouldn't exactly say ignore the post b/c you can be sorry for not at least considering warnings that ppl give you. that is one thing I have learned in my 30 yrs on earth, listen listen. I'm not saying believe everything you hear but at least check out the input that was given, be smart about it.

i think ckent's main point is take the guys post with a grain of salt and don't be overly influenced by the guys post. as with any school, you'll get your malcontents. especially with the fact that there are alot of recently accepted UMich class of 2008 students who read these posts and i can see it causing more anxiety than it should.
anyone who thinks med school is easy and full of happy shiny people content with their education... whether it's umich or not is in for a big surprise.

did some research:

um 02 matchlist

http://www.medicineatmichigan.org/magazine/2002/summer/match/match.asp


01
http://www.medicineatmichigan.org/magazine/2001/spring/matchday/v7matchday.pdf

00
http://www.medicineatmichigan.org/magazine/2000/summer/matchday/default.asp


cant find 03 matchlist



UM MSTP matchlist

2003
Bednarski, Jeffrey J.
Pediatrics
Washington University/St. Louis Children's

2003
Bone-Larson, Cynthia L.
Internal Medicine
University of Michigan Hospitals

2003
Cotter, Murray A.
Dermatology
University of Utah Affiliated Hospitals

2003
Faulkner, Neil E.
Internal Medicine
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center

2003
Hall, Diane A.
Pathology
University of Michigan Hospitals

2003
Hartigan-O'Connor, Dennis J.
Postdoctoral Fellowship

2002
Blatt, Neal
Pediatrics
University of Chicago

2002
Choi, Clara
Radiation Oncology
Stanford

2002
Lane, Brian
Urology
Cleveland Clinic

2002
Miller, Amy
Neurology
Brigham, Harvard/MGH

2002
Novak, James
Internal Medicine
University of Michigan Hospitals

2002
Stegman, Lauren
Radiation Oncology
Memorial Sloan Kettering



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year
MSTP Graduate
Residency Field
University Hospital

2001
Battaglia, Deborah F.
Emergency Medicine
Washington University

2001
Collins, Sean P.
Radiation Oncology
Georgetown University

2001
Hamstra, Daniel A.
Radiation Oncology
University of Michigan Hospitals

2001
Noh, Seong J.
Medicine/Pediatrics
University of Cincinnati

2001
Probst, Francis J. III
Pediatrics
New York Hospital, Cornell

2001
Rengan, Ramesh
Radiation Oncology
Sloan Kettering, New York

2001
Yang, Tony L.
Pathology
University of California, San Francisco



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year
MSTP Graduate
Residency Field
University Hospital

2000
Burrows, Heather L.
Pediatrics
University of Michigan Hospitals

2000
Denninger, John W.
Psychiatry
Massachusetts General Hospital

2000
Lumeng, Carey
Pediatrics
Boston Combined Pediatrics



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year
MSTP Graduate
Residency Field
University Hospital

1999
Chinnaiyan, Arul M.
Pathology
University of Michigan Hospitals

1999
Dittmar, Kurt D.
Anesthesiology
University of California, San Francisco

1999
Foreback, Jami L.
Internal Medicine
University of Michigan Hospitals

1999
McCullumsmith, Cheryl B.
Psychiatry
University of Michigan Hospitals

1999
Olson, David P.
Pediatrics
Boston Combined Pediatrics

1999
Richards, Mark
Internal Medicine
Barnes-Jewish Hospital, MO

1999
Wiese, Don E., II
Diagnostic Radiology
B.I. Deaconess Medical Center, MA

Originally posted by ckent
U Mich has an above average rep in the medical academic community and having the name on your CV certainly won't hurt you. I would not advise out of staters to spend a lot of extra money going there over their own state school though, since I don't think that they are on the level of a school like Hopkins or Harvard whose rep might justify spending the extra cash depending on your career plans.

Click to expand...

well........................i am an out of stater that's most likely going to umich next year. of course, this is mainly b/c i know that i'll have a schittload of fun in ann arbor, but i also think that i'll be at one of the best schools in the country.

if umich has an "above average rep" then what kind of rep do schools like ucsf, duke, penn, yale ie the other top 10 schools have? are they above average also?

i agree that umich as well as the schools mentioned above aren't on the levels of hopkins or harvard. but that doesn't mean they aren't worth the $$ that u would save at your state school. in my opinion, the best things about these top schools are not the brand-new facilities, world-renowned faculty, or the innovative curriculum, but the students they attract. these are the ppl u'll be studying, working, and partying with...and if you want to be surrounded by brilliant, talented students, then i'd say it's worth it to go to a top school (like michigan).

Hey Steinway:

The price tag of a medical education at UMich as a nonresident doesn't bother you? $50,000/yr, man! Fifty THOUSAND. Like yourself, I will most likely attend UMich as a nonresident, and the thought of graduating with close to $200,000 of debt is very scary. I am having some serious secondthoughts regarding Michigan, but I'm pretty much locked in there. I already wrote them a letter of intent and I've been accepted.

Thanks for the list, chef! That's awesome. I wish all schools posted their matches for both MSTP students and regular MD students. The PhD is a big plus in the Match. I guess the fact that a number of the MSTPs at UMich stayed at Michigan for residency speaks volumes about the quality of some of Michigan's residency programs. These people most likely could have gone anywhere in the country!

Originally posted by elias514
I guess the fact that a number of the MSTPs at UMich stayed at Michigan for residency speaks volumes about the quality of some of Michigan's residency programs. These people most likely could have gone anywhere in the country!

Click to expand...

No, it doesn't.

I hate rude people.

Originally posted by elias514
I hate rude people.

Click to expand...

lol. me 2.

1/1/04 2pm pst
nuff said.

Hey guys, the '03 matchlist is posted here:

http://www.umich.edu/~umedstud/reports.html

Not having gone through the residency application process myself yet, I don't know for sure whether the arguments made on interview feedback are necessarily true. All I know is that Michigan is supposed to be very well-respected amongst residency directors across the country. I remember hearing at one point that Michigan actually DOES send a lot of people out to Cali.

Anyway, I'm only a second year student now, but yes, all reports seem to indicate that they kill us third year. This is part of what supposedly prepares us so well for residency. This year will be especially bad because the administration has had to adjust our third year schedule to accomodate the new curriculum instituted for the first years. It's a long story, but a lot of people in my class have been complaining about it (I'm not saying their complaints are unfounded) and I'd be curious to know if the poster of that thing on interview feedback was an M2 who is bitter about the changes taking place next year.

Overall though, I love it here, and I know lots of other people who feel the same way. Michigan is a great school and I think it prepares its students well.

Hey Sprockette:

Do you think that the faculty and administration at Michigan do an excellent job of helping med students choose the right specialty? I'm just curious about the quality of career counseling at UMich. Are the vast majority of Michigan grads happy with their career choices--i.e., is it rare for a Michigan grad to change his/her specialty?

Also, what's the story with all of the matches in Detroit? Are there some really great residency programs there?

I would like to make a few comments about this thread.

First, I think the original point made in the interview feedback is one thing to think about when choosing a medical school. That being said, I think everyone should just calm down a bit about the said comments. It is ONE factor of MANY that need to be considered when choosing a medical school.

I have chosen UMich as an out of state applicant and did so after a lot of thought. In the long run what will be important for getting into the residency I want (this is my opinion obviously since I am not a residency director and really don't know all that there is to know about getting into a residency) is how well I perform in medical school. I decided to go to Michigan because I liked the faculty and staff that I contacted with specific questions about the program. I liked the revised curriculum that they have in place now. I like the area and think that the environment is ideal for my own likes/dislikes. In short, I will be able to do well at UofM---I truly think I will do better there than I would have at the other schools where I was accepted. And, despite the fact that some of the schools I turned down were "better" (rankings wise) I don't think that I personally would have performed better there.

Also, I think it is hard to decide on a medical school by emphasizing residency too much. While I'm sure that we all have ideas about what specialty we are interested in, none of us can predict where our minds will be four years from now. If you asked me four years ago if I would be going to medical school I would have said no, not a chance...but now that is all I want to do.

Also, I don't really think that looking at match lists is all that informative. Each student is unique and is looking for a specific environment. Maybe one person's ideal place is Detroit....it isn't mine, but don't assume that Detroit was the only option for those people or even that is was the last choice. We simply don't know.

For those out of state people who think for sure that they want to go back home for residency, again just think about how much can change in four years. Maybe you'll meet your future spouse in Ann Arbor---someone outside of medicine who has an established career in Detroit, then maybe that residency choice is the best.

Nobody can choose where to go to medical school (or anything else for that matter) by seeking advice on a message board. You don't know me and I don't know you. Yes, all of these points are things to think about, but they are only one minor factor in a huge decision.

thats all for now.

I'm a current fourth year student at UMich and thought I'd add my 2 cents... It is deceiving to look at match lists and locations alone. Many of the more competitive fields are highly regional - I'm currently interviewing in orthopaedic surgery and yes, it is true the bulk of my interviews are coming from the midwest with little love from the West Coast. I have no ties to the West Coast so your mileage may vary. Point being is that if you decided to do something like family practice, internal medicine, or pediatrics, you should be able to interview (and match) pretty much anywhere in the country and I think our match lists reflect that. As for the whole residency reputation thing - that too was emphasized to me when I was applying 4 years ago. I'm sure this is true to some extent but I wouldn't base my decision to come to UMich because of that nor would I count on that to get you into whatever residency you want regardless of your performance. On the interview trail so far, I don't think anyone has been blown away by the Michigan name. Again, this is just my experience interviewing in orthopaedics but my personal feeling is that your board scores, clinical grades, and letters of rec matter far more than the emblem on your transcript. That being said, I do not regret for one second coming here for medical school. The clinical training you receive here is second to none, most attendings are eager to teach, and the hospital system is amazing with top-rated programs in almost every specialty. I cannot speak to the new preclinical curriculum as it was just started this year, but the third and fourth years will remain unchanged for the most part. As for UMich "killing" their third years, I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Regardless of what anyone says, the M3 year is not 100 hours/week x 12 months. On your psychiatry, family medicine, and neurology months, you will be basically working 8-5 with no call/weekends. Same goes for outpatient medicine and pediatrics. Sure, inpatient medicine and surgery are demanding, but it varies by service and who your chief resident is. In addition, you are also afforded a choice as to where to do your rotations. So for example, I had no interest at all in internal medicine so I elected to do my rotation at a private community hospital where the sphincter tone was not as elevated and call was benign. I often tell the story of my psych rotation at a hospital near detroit where I spent more time driving back and forth than I actually did working in the hospital. The take home message is that everything is variable and that third year is neither going to be totally cush or totally brutal. The only truth is this - fourth year rocks Feel free to post any other questions...

Just want to provide some information to those of you that wondering of specialty matching for Umich grads. the matchlist from last year might suggest that umich grads can never match out of michigan. that was true for last year since 3/4 otolarnygology spots at Umich are filled by Umich grads. but according to what I learned yesterday that is not always the case. this years otolaryngology match results just came in and four Umich 4th years have matched. the programs they matched into are Hopkins, Umich, U of Colorado and UCSF (one reputable program from each time zone). there is hope for all of you that are worried about not being able to match out of Michigan if you come to Umich for med school. based on what I know michigan grads match all over the country and there are regional variations from year to year just because the class composition changes every year. alot of people match in to michigan or around michigan because they like michigan. believe it or not, people from michigan actually like it in michigan and stay in michigan.

excuse my grammar, not fully awake yet =)

hey imclamv, thanks for the update. wow, those are great programs.

do you know of anyone in the early match that didn't match? (i forget what other specialties are covered in this one... oto, urology, neurology?, ??)

thanks! i am actively considering attending u michigan so hearing feedback from you current michigan students is really helpful.

Originally posted by ilclamv
excuse my grammar, not fully awake yet =)

Click to expand...

You bring back fond memories from the last time you posted. Any regrets??

I am surprised that you still remember. I don't quite remember which side you took. In all honesty, Michigan is a great school. the faculty here do go out of their way to make sure that we are comfortable and try to be as flexible as possible. the facilities here are nice and the students here are definitely top-notch. I don't regret coming here for school. Well, with that said, my only regret is the weather. Michigan is cold and it snows alot. But, all in all, I don't regret my decision coming here, although I am pretty sure I can get a decent education at UCSD as well.

I was voting against UCSD and I got a ton of people mad at me.

I am a third year at U of Michigan and I am from out of state. I chose to pay more to attend U-M, and I am very happy about that decision.

The person who posted that evaluation of our med school is obviously a very bitter person who is displeased with his or her perceived residency options. No matter where you go for school, the same formula applies for getting a great match... study hard, get good grades, get good USMLE scores, work hard on the wards, get to know at least a couple faculty members who can vouch for you in letters of recommendation, and be smart about the application and ranking process. Does that formula sound familiar? It should, becuase it is completely analagous to how you got accepted to medical school. The bitter evaluator probably has failed to follow that formula and was counting on the U-M name to bail him or her out. Bad plan, whether you go to U-M or Harvard or Hopkins or St. Kaplan of the Virgin Islands Medical School.

I think that a med school's reputation can affect your match in one of two ways... it can help it or it can hurt it. Graduating from this med school often helps people get those sought-after interviews, and it rarely, if ever, hinders people from getting those interviews. That said, the U-M name alone is not going to land you in Neurosurgery at MGH. Some of the state schools, which are admittedly less expensive, might hurt you in getting great interviews. That doesn't mean the formula above is totally different at those schools, it just means there's even more pressure to get the high grades and scores.

Our third year is fantastic. I have worked harder this year than any year in my life, and I have never been happier. Our attendings and residents are outstanding doctors and teachers, and they demand that M3's give their best effort every single day. My classmates are an amazing group of people. Their efforts in patient care and in studying medicine are impressive; sometimes I wonder if I can keep up with them. I realize I am trying to maintain a pace with some of the brightest students in the country, so I don't get too down on myself when they outshine me. But we also HELP EACH OTHER LEARN, and we look out for one another on the wards, which is why I love this place.

I, too, have been disappointed by some of my M3 grades. The process is subjective (there is no way around this), and Honors is reserved for a select few students during the M3 year. So you can use that to motivate yourself to do better on the next rotation, or you can pout. Personally, I believe that out M3 grading is designed to push us to do our very best.

If you ask our graduating seniors each year, "Considering quality of training and your own personal match, are you happy you came to U-M?" I am pretty sure that > 95% would enthusiastically say, "Yes!" Very simple... most people love it here. Don't let one bitter student rock the perception you got when you walked around our school and saw hundreds of students and faculty at work. Your gut feeling is generally right on.

A few random thoughts (I gotta get off the damned computer and celebrate the switch weekend with my fellow M3's!):

1) As a pre-med, evaluating match lists is a waste of time. You simply don't know what to look for, and you don't know what individual students were wanting.

2) Our medical center is phenomenal, and that is why so many of our grads end up here for residency. As an M3, I see our senior residents as role models, so I figure I'd like to train here and turn out like them.

Out.

howdy everybody!

i know this is ridiculous, but i think i may end up in A2...DESPITE the banter posted on an anonymous website...


am i crazy?


-the only prescription...