The Problem with AA

This is interesting.....lets hear it folks.....flame on!

And there goes my hopes and dreams for a AA thread free 2004.......

I thought this thread was going to be about alcoholics anonymous...

... but whatever...

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So here are my $.02:

Of course skin color is not always going to be accurate. I'm sure there are a fair number of poor white kids, and a fair number of well-to-do AA's.

So, one solution to the problem is to look at social and economic status to determine a more accurate picture. However, I see two problems with this (probably more; please add some if you think of them):

1) Not enough accurate statistics on the socio-economically disadvantaged to provide the appropriate services to that underserved 'class'.

2) By virtue of them being underserved, there is less public education informing them of the opportunities/advantages/care-packages provided for them.

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The problem is not skin color, it is communication and public education. The appropriate people (socio-economically disadvantaged) have not been appropriately informed of the services available to them. The problem is partially perpetuated through contextual and socializing factors within the underserved communities (i.e. the parents are not informed, they will not inform their children/friends/family/etc.)

So what ends up happening, is the next 'best' thing is to look at skin color and socio-economic status correlations (Yeah, I know, I know, correlation does not imply causation). Why?

1) We have racial demographic data that is pretty extensive.

2) We can look at a person and quickly determine their skin color.

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The problems that arise:

1) Because of lack of public education, the ethnic target audience that the services would fall on, instead falls on the socioeconomically advantaged that fits the appropriate racial profile.

And that's what it looks like to me. For better or worse, until someone comes up with a better idea, or a stronger push for public education (health education, academic education, etc) in underserved communities, this problem will be around forever.

And I don't see this problem going away anytime soon.

Like I said in the beginning, whatever.

Originally posted by MDTom
I thought this thread was going to be about alcoholics anonymous...

... but whatever...

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after last night, i was hoping for that too

this thread will probably be turfed to everyone in due time......

Originally posted by DW
after last night, i was hoping for that too

this thread will probably be turfed to everyone in due time......

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No more AA threads! I'm hikjacking it. Here we go:

Happy New Year everyone!!

Originally posted by ndi_amaka
And there goes my hopes and dreams for a AA thread free 2004.......

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remember this is SDN

That was a good article. As they said it is a "uniquely American story."

Come on you guys!

It's 1/1/2004. Can't you find anything more interesting to talk about than AA (for the 30351056 time?).

Originally posted by DW

this thread will probably be turfed to everyone in due time......

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Suuuurreee. Send me all of the nasty arguments!

Why are premeds so obsessed with AA???

AA doesn't help "minorities"; it only serves to embarrass them once they are admitted to medical school. After admission, poorly prepared medical students (of any race) find that they are unable to compete because of:

1) lack of prior exposure to medical school curriculum,

2) lack of access to the medical school network which provides copies of verboten old exams (sometimes current exams) and other materials, and

3) lack of academic support from the school's administration and faculty who want the student to fail to prove the point that AA doesn't work.

Just my New Year's Day drunken rant.

Go 'SC!!!

Oh please, yes, affirmative action does help minorities. You are forgetting the Model Minority Myth - not all minorities are priveleged to have luxuries helping them to succeed. You forget about 20 years ago, when UT at Austin Law School did away with affirmative action, the number of Black students dropped from 12 out of a class of over 100, to only 1. A drop over a one year period - no academic reason can explain this sudden drastic drop.

And please, you are not letting in unworthy applicants. Just you tell the minorities succeeding so well today that - it is pure ignorance to say that they will fail any way.

arrghhhhhhh! AA might not be the perfect solution, but until you find a better solution, it is the right thing to do.

Some schools actually use AA very well in a wholistic picture - and maybe you should look at those schools before really deciding.

It doesn't matter how many minority students are admitted into medical school as a result of AA. What matters is how many graduate from medical school. If a well-prepared, competitive minority candidate is admitted into medical school as a result of AA, all the better! The problem is when poorly prepared minority candidates are admitted and are not provided the academic, social, and emotional support that is required for them to succeed or even exceed. In my opinion, that is more of an abomination than rejecting the candidate in the first place. At least if the student is rejected, they hopefully will take more courses and improve their application and reapply. If a minority student fails out of medical school, his or her career as a physician is over. And that is a disservice to society as a whole.

I agree with MD '05 and tao of dao,
FINALLY we have gotten to the root!!!!!!

Originally posted by tao of dao
arrghhhhhhh! AA might not be the perfect solution, but until you find a better solution, it is the right thing to do.

Some schools actually use AA very well in a wholistic picture - and maybe you should look at those schools before really deciding.

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Exactly,

Wholistic sense is important. Don't just accept a student on the basis of ethnic background. They need to show qualities that they have faced extraordinary odds and have done well. Academic grades and MCAT/GRE/LSAT scores only paint a part of the picture. For example, what if a non-traditional applicant has worked since age 10 to support the family plus do school and a smattering of other activities, plus they do reasonably well academically; to me that says responsibility plus intelligence. "Multiple-Intelligences" if you will.

I think the supplemental essays are extremely important in leveling the playing field. In my mind, it allows for anyone, privileged or not, to convey qualities that are desirable in a physician, yet not quantitatable with a test.

Of course this whole process is subjective. That's why they call it a crapshoot. However, as a white guy (me), I would be stupid to say that AA is the reason I did not get accepted into a medical school. There are plenty of other things I probably could've done better.

Okay, I'm eating lunch. I made this fried rice meal here is the recipe.

2 cups of broccoli florets
2 tablespoon sesame oil
chopped red pepper- as many as u wish
Chopped 1-2 garlic cloves
Chopped onions (I use about 1/2 an onion)
1 tablespoon soy sauce (optional)

uncooked rice (I use brown rice).
2cups low salt/fat chicken broth (or add as much to cook the amount of rice u want to cook) I add 1/2 cup of water to every 2cup of broth just to dilute it a bit.
Salt (to taste)
Sliced Chicken breast (I use shrimps or crabmeat)

Instructions-

Sautee onions and garlic in sesame oil (2mins)
Add Chicken/Shrimp/Crabmeat and fry until cooked
Add uncooked rice and fry that for about 2mins
Add soy sauce
Add the chicken broth and cook.

When it's almost done, add the broccoli florets and red pepper on top and let steam cook for about 2-3mins...then stir it into the rice mixture.

It tastes really good and it's healthy. I make mine with shrimp but mostly crabmeat and it's DA BOMB....try it and you'll thank me later.

That sounds good. Got any leftovers?

Originally posted by tao of dao
Oh please, yes, affirmative action does help minorities. You are forgetting the Model Minority Myth - not all minorities are priveleged to have luxuries helping them to succeed. You forget about 20 years ago, when UT at Austin Law School did away with affirmative action, the number of Black students dropped from 12 out of a class of over 100, to only 1. A drop over a one year period - no academic reason can explain this sudden drastic drop.

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You might be mistaken. It is my understanding that when UT Austin Law pulled AA, the next round of minority applicants was seriously reduced in numbers. Therefore, a smaller pool of applicants will also reduce the number of attendees. It is not as black-and-white as you paint it (no pun intended). Many were simply scared off by the change in procedure or lack of desire to attend school where the minority population was decreasing.

Originally posted by Supadupafly
That sounds good. Got any leftovers?

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No man...it's funny cause I make a big of it on Sunday so I can bring it to work for lunch. Everyday as I spoon a bit into my lunch bowl, I try not to take too much (cause it tastes soo darn good)...but then by lunchtime when I start eating it I realize how GREAT it tastes and I wish I had taken MOREEEEEEEEEE......but then the next day as I spoon some into my bowl it looks like a lot but when I eat it I crave moreeee....

Quote:
You might be mistaken. It is my understanding that when UT Austin Law pulled AA, the next round of minority applicants was seriously reduced in numbers. Therefore, a smaller pool of applicants will also reduce the number of attendees. It is not as black-and-white as you paint it (no pun intended). Many were simply scared off by the change in procedure or lack of desire to attend school where the minority population was decreasing.

that is exactly why AA is needed.

If AA exists, it should be based solely on socioeconomic background and not race. I have no objection to AA addressed at helping those from underprivileged backgrounds, but helping upper-middle class minorities get into college while poor white kids get left behind...that's not my definition of fair.

If we're not gonna support a meritocracy then let's at least direct AA at the people who truly need it, based on SES and not on skin color.

Always going to be so hard to do because guess who controls politics?---the rich. Sigh.

Fix the public school system! AA is one way to divert attention from the real problem. We need to make sure everyone can compete at the university. Albeit some people don't want to go to college, there are too many URMs and poor non-URMs who graduate from high school lacking the ability to read/write, and they cannot do basic math or science. I know this because I am a URM who is a product of bad schools .

The great thing about the US education system is that it's not stratified like the European system - you don't grow up being tracked into the engineering profession, for example. Yet, with the US system of freedom to choose comes also providing safety nets for those who fail to achieve. Public schools aren't the only problem, but they're a good place to start! The government needs to help out the financially strapped school districts - because most schools are funded locally - the poorer districts will just not have comparable resources. And funny how the problem is usually with these poorer districts to start off with! Let's start there!

Vouchers would solve the problem. Let the free market do it's thing. Let's empower parents to procure the best education possible for their children. This would allow parents from all walks of life to send their children to the best schools they can find. As time goes by, the failing public schools will whither away, while successful private schools flourish and grow.

The only person who loses with vouchers are teachers unions (who got themselves into this mess). Unlike private schools where a sh|tty teacher can be fired over-night, firing a bad public school teacher takes an act of congress! Teachers' Unions don't protect children, they protect bad teachers!

I realize vouchers have inherent problems...but it's the most viable solution out there. I'm sorry, but "let's fix the public school system" is not a solution, it's a pipe dream. Public schools have too much crap preventing them from ever improving....the mountains of red tape, the damned teacher's unions.

This is one of those problems where you just need to scrap the whole thing and start over, i.e vouchers.

And remember, good public schools have nothing to fear from vouchers...parents are not going to take their kids out of good public schools.

The problem with vouchers is that they compound the problem. The rich will still be rich, they can top vouchers anytime and afford better schools. Along the same line, if safety nets are not created for those schools who lose good students (think of all the best students going preferably to better schools), then you will have a HUGE problem. When schools have more applicants than they have positions ---> medical school process in another name! These "public" and "private" schools start picking their students. This has been tried in other countries with the same results. If you do this, make sure there's a safety net to help the many schools that will start struggling.

Plus, think priviatized, inefficient healthcare in the US, and you will quickly see it might do more harm than our current system. The rich will always be catered preferentially, creating ever widening gaps.

Originally posted by tao of dao
Plus, think priviatized, inefficient healthcare in the US, and you will quickly see it might do more harm than our current system.

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How can you say "privatized, inefficient" ???

Private companies can't afford to be inefficient! Inefficient companies don't survive. Only goverment programs can be inefficient and still survive.

Originally posted by tao of dao
The rich will always be catered preferentially, creating ever widening gaps.

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Okay, and there's nothing wrong with that. If I ever had kids, I would want to provide for them the best education I could afford. What's wrong with that?

The question is...you have a hypothetical single mom with 4 kids in failing inner city schools...the current system is NOT working for her or her kids...how could a voucher system make it worse? It couldn't! Giving her more choices can only improve her situation.

Think this:

US privatized system: ONLY 50% of the money you put into it, goes to the actual consumer. The rest is lost in:
1) Profit!
2) Marketing to the healthiest people.
3) MANY MANY misc. costs.

Now think Medicare:
97% of what you put into it, goes to the people.
ONLY 3% overhead costs.
What brings down Medicare is that it's embedded in this hugely gross privatized system.

Originally posted by tao of dao
Along the same line, if safety nets are not created for those schools who lose good students (think of all the best students going preferably to better schools), then you will have a HUGE problem.

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I don't follow. Why would all the good students end up in different schools. The only schools that would lose students would be bad schools. And those bad schools would lose good students and poor students alike.

You say all the best students would end up in better schools....how would vouchers make that happen? Vouchers would allow any parent of any child (good student or not) to make a CHOICE to enter any school.

Anyways, the wealthy are actually the ones (check the news) against vouchers. Why would they want to pay for something

1) they don't need
2) to help other people?

BTW...private schools are consistently more efficient than public schools. The cost-per-student at most public schools is significantly higher than at private schools. A voucher system actually would save us money.

But with choice comes the need for the safety net. Schools just can't all of a sudden let in 5,000 people. They'll become selective.

Bad schools will become worse because
1) they lose students
2) they lose the financial base (schools are funded by locally and lose money and human capital when families move somewhere else)
3) Families won't necessarily be able to transport their kids - and the worst off will be stuck in the worst off schools made even worse.

Great, do away with the current 90% of our schools that are public?

Originally posted by tao of dao
Anyways, the wealthy are actually the ones (check the news) against vouchers. Why would they want to pay for something

1) they don't need
2) to help other people?

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Last I checked, it was the democrats who oppose vouchers and the republicans that support them. Why is it that the democrats, who supposedly "look out for the little guy," oppose vouchers that would help poor, urban children garner access to better schools?

Not to make this political, cuz I'm neither republican or democrat, but I think the GOP has it right on this particular issue. The only reasons the dems oppose voucher programs is because the dems are in bed with the teachers unions who are major contributors to the demcractic party.

try teaching in an inner city public school with rampant crime, and you will come to respect teachers.

Originally posted by tao of dao
Great, do away with the current 90% of our schools that are public?

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Private schools will quickly replace them. Once that money is out there (in the form of vouchers), private schools will start popping up faster than Clinton could get a BJ.

Listen, I want failing schools to disappear...don't you? What's the point of continuing to subsidize failing schools? Why?

nope, I don't think that will solve the problem. everybody has X amount of money. giving everybody X+Y amount of money is really not going to do anything at all.

Originally posted by tao of dao
try teaching in an inner city public school with rampant crime, and you will come to respect teachers.

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I do respect teachers. In fact, I respect teachers immensely. My beef is not with teachers, it's with the teachers' unions that protect bad, tenured teachers.

I have friends who are teachers and they hate the teachers unions. It's these unions that pay teachers based on tenure and not on performance. Young teachers doing excellent jobs get paid sh|t while these 20-year veterans who couldn't teach pee-wee herman to jack off are making twice as much as them. It's sad, really.

Originally posted by tao of dao
nope, I don't think that will solve the problem. everybody has X amount of money. giving everybody X+Y amount of money is really not going to do anything at all.

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The voucher amounts are based on average costs of attendance at private schools locally. So, giving someone that Y amount is enough money to take their kids out of the crappy public school and enroll them in a private school. How is that not helping?

How could a libertarian be in favor of using tax dollars to fund a voucher program. Doesn't that give too much power to the toiling masses? Wouldn't it be better to let us "lumpin-proletariat" rot in the ghettos, far from your gated, suburban paradise?

Ok we come to a standstill. you want to do away with the public system of education, but i think there's other problems besides vouchers here. i'm telling you, it's just going to be worse!

Originally posted by Supadupafly
How could a libertarian be in favor of using tax dollars to fund a voucher program. Doesn't that give too much power to the toiling masses? Wouldn't it be better to let us "lumpin-proletariat" rot in the ghettos, far from your gated, suburban paradise?

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We're already funding education via handing our tax dollars over to the public schools. So, if my taxes are going towards education anyway, I'd at least hope that we're educating kids in the process.

Actually, I'd like to get the government out of education altogether (a very libertarian idea).

I have to admit, I'm do not agree 100% with the libertarians. I just happen to agree with them more than the dems or the GOP. Where I disagree with the libertarian stance is when it comes to children. I believe that the government should intervene on behalf of children...do whatever it takes to feed them, educate them, and provide healthcare to them. This is the only way to break the cycle of poverty. Kids shouldn't be punished because they were born to loser parents, i.e. children shouldn't inherit their parents' problems. To this end, I support any programs directed at providing for children.

Originally posted by tao of dao
Ok we come to a standstill. you want to do away with the public system of education, but i think there's other problems besides vouchers here. i'm telling you, it's just going to be worse!

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Hey, I know there's problems with vouchers. I just think it's worth a try, cuz what we're doing now ain't working, now is it?

Do you have a solution? (that doesn't involve rasing my taxes even more)

Originally posted by Teufelhunden

Do you have a solution? (that doesn't involve rasing my taxes even more)

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Free the markets... no, I mean FREE the markets...

Repeal Taft-Hartley so consumers can earn the fruits of their labor, rather than lose it to taxes, market siphoning, and runaway executives.

Shift the burden of taxes from consumers (those who work for a living, from janitors, to doctors and lawyers).

End entitlements which are not based on contribution to society. Start "work for welfare" and similar programs, which ensure that nobody get's a handout (excepting, of course, those who cannot work).

Provide "real world" education to help young people get jobs that keep them out of poverty and fuel the economy. Teach people to work (rather than only to buy).

End corporate welfare as we know it.

I could go on for days...

Oh, and give students and workers from marginalized and economically disadvantaged populations the opportunity and access they deserve... through AA and similar programs based on economic and social background, including race and culture.

Just make sure you give people enough time to really find a good job. Taking them off welfare too quickly can be hazardous because they'll get stuck being in jobs below their education level, and those lower paying jobs tend to have the highest turnover rates, meaning they'll be back on welfare before we know it.

Vouchers are an awful idea. This would, like Tao of Dao so cogently argues, take more money from the already under-funded public schools. Schools can be fixed if teachers, students, parents, and all the bureaucrats really wanted them to be. I just can't fathom that a country so "great" has the worst public school system of all the 1st world nations. It can be done!

Hmm.... What a suprise. Still no viable solutions offered up yet???

Apparenty the anti-voucher experts have never been in business. When a business is successful, the business expands. When the demand goes up at a successful institution, do they say "No more widgets are available?" No, they figure out a way to make more so they can sell more. In the same fashion, high performing schools will expand, grow, and make room for more. They will likely figure a way to get more efficient as the volume grows as well.

The good teachers at failing schools will be picked up by the performing schools. Who cares where the bad ones go. Just go. Once the crappy school closes, the private school may take advantage of the newly available space ideally suited for teaching.

Let the NEA wither and die on it's own foundation. Teachers will have power once again, to teach, to discipline, to inspire their students. Free competition will weed out the low quality products and inefficient producers.