Pretty sure I will be accepted to PsyD program…now afraid to enroll!

Sounds like a good job for a pro/cons list. Get clear about the specific reasons you're "afraid to enroll" and consider whether those risks/drawbacks outweigh the potential benefits. Good luck.

WahineMommy said:

Well, the pros are: I am passionate about Clinical Pychology, this has been my end goal since I began my undergrad. The program is APA accredited with good match rates. Program is heavy in research.

Cons: Everything I have heard on this forum: Lack of respect given to people with a PsyD. The debt taken on and the negative feedback as to actual income. That many people seem to think that you are just as well with a masters as you are with a PsyD…?! This is 5 years of serious work for all that negativity.

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Wahine Mommy, I have a few comments and questions for you:

1) You said that match rates are 90%. Are we talking APA accredited internships or APPIC here? APA is the gold standard and the only type of internship that will not restrict your employment options so pay attention to those.

2) Have you spoken to several alumni from the program, especially about debt, job prospects, how long it took them to land something? Current students tend to ignore debt and are also afraid to voice negative opinions about the program. This was my experience with my program and other programs I researched.

3) What are your specific career goals? If you want to do therapy/PP, you can do all of this with an MSW. Median debt for a PsyD is 120K vs. MSW of 30K. Salaries are not going to be a big difference.

4) Keep in mind that 5 years is the Minimum for a PsyD program, and that 7 years is the average until you will get licensed . There are some programs that are shorter but it's only because they funnel their students to unaccredited internships. My program (although a PhD program) took me 1.5 years longer to complete and I completed college early with straight A's so I am not a slacker. I know PsyD graduates who also took 1-2 years longer to finish due to not matching for internship, wanting to be competitive enough for internship, wanting to get more research experience/publications, dissertation delays, needing to work part-time during the program, and wanting to have a little bit more of a life. These were people that were healthy and without children. There are many things that could delay your graduation that are outside your control (e.g., dissertation committee members, not landing an apa internship on the first try).

5) Regarding debt, did you calculate how much with living expenses approximately that you will need to take out? Tuition is typically 120K alone without living expenses, which are going to be at least 20-30k per year. This can increase to 200K easily in some programs. I would recommend to do the calculation and consult with a financially savvy friend/colleague. The rule of thumb is that you shouldn't take out more than you expect to earn in your first year (for a PsyD that would be 50-60K).

WahineMommy said:

Hi everyone. First of all I have read through these forums on a regular basis, and am fairly aware of the majority's opinion of the PsyD degree.


Speaking mainly to those who have gone the PsyD route… how do you feel about your decision? I was really excited and focused on this route, however have been discouraged especially after reading this forum. (No, there is not a funded PhD option). It's disappointing that the one thing you thought you were going to do for years may be a bad decision?

Any honest and helpful opinions are appreciated!
Thank you in advance!

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I am in a non-funded PsyD program and have been able to secure internal and external scholarships in addition to a paid assistanceship on campus and I am fortunate enough to have help with my major living expenses. This has mitigated the debt levels somewhat. I also do not plan on having children thus my partner and I will be dual income no kids family. Lastly, I went straight into my doc program first round of apps and haven't had to play the multiple application cycle game which can be tough. In return I get an extra two years added onto the duration of my career ( 2 X $65000 = $130,000). Time spent in graduate school and not practice does indeed equal money. For these reasons I can justify the debt. Everyone's financial situation is different and you have to evaluate your own circumstances. I certainly won't be $150,000 plus in debt but I certainly won't have $0 either. I know the amount I am taking on is manageable and ultimately worth the initial cost for my career later given that I don't want a "just therapy" career.

Is 90% the match rate for APA accredited internships? Some programs puff up their match stats by including even non-APPIC sites in their match rate calculations, so make sure you look primarily at the APA-specific match states and then, secondarily (and only if you'd be fine shutting government and many academic employment doors), at the APPIC match rates. Anything non-APA and non-APPIC is... really not good, except with regards to school psych programs.

First of all I have read through these forums on a regular basis, and am fairly aware of the majority's opinion of the PsyD degree.

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I'm going to address this, as it always gets me when I see it. I don't think most people here have an issue with the PsyD as a training model but rather any issue of what market forces have made the vast majority of PsyD programs become--namely, programs with large cohorts, high costs, very little or no funding, and often--not always--poor outcomes. It's not the training model or the degree name or the idea that people want to focus on practice more than research, but the other issues that plague a vast majority of PsyD programs that makes us balk. Indeed, if we were against people or programs being more practice-focused, we would also be bashing balanced PhD programs, and if we were all about the degree name, you would see us recommending FSPS PhD programs (yes, they exist). You seldom see either of those. Also, the PsyD programs that eschew the modal problems by having funding, smaller cohorts, and good match rates are frequently recognized as such. Not all PhD programs provide great funding, either, and that should be discussed as well.

Most of us don't dislike PsyDs , but rather, large programs that leave students with high debt and a huge disadvantage in tight internship and job markets. There's nothing wrong about that, IMO.

graduatingsoon said:

4) Keep in mind that 5 years is the Minimum for a PsyD program

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Just chiming in here - I have seen 4 years and even 3 for Psy.D. degrees. Part of my negative perception of those programs (less minimum work than a PhD). When you look at APA-Accredited programs that have both Psy.D. and Ph.D., you will still see this minimal time to completion difference (usually a PhD takes a year longer).

Pragma said:

Just chiming in here - I have seen 4 years and even 3 for Psy.D. degrees. Part of my negative perception of those programs (less minimum work than a PhD). When you look at APA-Accredited programs that have both Psy.D. and Ph.D., you will still see this minimal time to completion difference (usually a PhD takes a year longer).

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I can only think of two or three 3+1 PsyD programs, and their outcome data suggest relatively few students actually get out in 4 years including internship. Frankly, I don't see how you would be competitive for internship applying during your third year, and I fail to see why programs encourage it. Otoh, I can only think of 1 or 2 PhD programs that specifically *disallow* the 4+1 model, even if their students rarely or never get out in 5 years total. Even among more balanced PhD programs where students are less likely to take research years or be strongly encouraged to do so, a sizable number of students take more than 5 years, and I'd expect this to be increasing as the internship imbalance affects even university-based programs.

WahineMommy said:

Hi everyone. First of all I have read through these forums on a regular basis, and am fairly aware of the majority's opinion of the PsyD degree.

I am very high up on the wait list, and it looks fairly certain I will extended an offer of admission. The program is APA accredited with match rates in the high 90%. It is a private University and unfunded of course, so I would be taking out loans for the duration of my time there. (Assistantships available after the first year, etc).

Speaking mainly to those who have gone the PsyD route… how do you feel about your decision? I was really excited and focused on this route, however have been discouraged especially after reading this forum. (No, there is not a funded PhD option). It's disappointing that the one thing you thought you were going to do for years may be a bad decision?

I have also applied to a MSW program (waiting to hear), and I am entertaining the option of just going to Nursing School and trying for my Psyc NP.

Any honest and helpful opinions are appreciated!
Thank you in advance!

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I wouldn't do it -- I'd go the NPX route as an RN or BSN. Psychology is going to strap you with twice as much debt, and you're income potential is going to be very limited.

futureapppsy2 said:

I can only think of two or three 3+1 PsyD programs, and their outcome data suggest relatively few students actually get out in 4 years including internship. Frankly, I don't see how you would be competitive for internship applying during your third year, and I fail to see why programs encourage it. Otoh, I can only think of 1 or 2 PhD programs that specifically *disallow* the 4+1 model, even if their students rarely or never get out in 5 years total. Even among more balanced PhD programs where students are less likely to take research years or be strongly encouraged to do so, a sizable number of students take more than 5 years, and I'd expect this to be increasing as the internship imbalance affects even university-based programs.

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I don't really have a problem with people taking longer. I have a problem with people getting doctorates too quickly (i.e., not enough work). IMO, 4+1 or more would really be necessary.

The internship imbalance is too bad when people take longer to graduate than they need to. But as I mentioned, I am more concerned about people getting done too fast. For the record, I was a 4+1er and it was really grueling. The idea that someone's program could allow them to do it one year faster than that seems ridiculous to me.

Pragma said:

I don't really have a problem with people taking longer. I have a problem with people getting doctorates too quickly (i.e., not enough work). IMO, 4+1 or more would really be necessary.

The internship imbalance is too bad when people take longer to graduate than they need to. But as I mentioned, I am more concerned about people getting done too fast. For the record, I was a 4+1er and it was really grueling. The idea that someone's program could allow them to do it one year faster than that seems ridiculous to me.

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I agree on all counts, although I do think that programs with a median and mean graduation time of, say, 8 years or more should not strongly purport to encourage a 4+1 model. There's nothing wrong with taking longer, as long as that time is spent productively.

Pragma said:

I don't really have a problem with people taking longer. I have a problem with people getting doctorates too quickly (i.e., not enough work). IMO, 4+1 or more would really be necessary.

.

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I agree with this. However, PsyD students doing 3+ 1 are not getting accredited internships and are not competitive in the job market overall. Any good program will not allow this. They are not getting the same outcome as you are.

I don't think most people here have an issue with the PsyD as a training model

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I do, but just because I don't see the need for it now that we have a lot of balanced PhD programs.

cara susanna said:

I do, but just because I don't see the need for it now that we have a lot of balanced PhD programs.

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I do agree that it's redundant, and thus, I don't see much use for the PsyD distinction. Good PsyD programs are basically balanced PhD programs anyway. I would argue many balanced PhD programs are more "practitioner-leaning with a solid research component" than "balanced." Research-oriented students can make them work, but it can be an uphill battle in many cases.

But I think people tend to equate "anti-PsyD" to "clinical science programs only" and I don't think that's true for most SDNers.

futureapppsy2 said:

I do agree that it's redundant, and thus, I don't see much use for the PsyD distinction. Good PsyD programs are basically balanced PhD programs anyway. I would argue many balanced PhD programs are more "practitioner-leaning with a solid research component" than "balanced." Research-oriented students can make them work, but it can be an uphill battle in many cases.

But I think people tend to equate "anti-PsyD" to "clinical science programs only" and I don't think that's true for most SDNers.

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I am not anti Psy.D. necessarily, but I am anti equating them to Ph.D. degrees. I haven't seen a school that offers both programs where the minimum requirements for the Psy.D. weren't less than for the Ph.D. I understand that there are some Psy.D. schools with great research training and what-not, but I have yet to see any objective data suggesting that both degrees require the same amount of work. I am only familiar with data suggesting that Psy.D.s take less time to complete on average (a year I believe was the time). That spells unequal to me.

futureapppsy2 said:

I would argue many balanced PhD programs are more "practitioner-leaning with a solid research component" than "balanced." Research-oriented students can make them work, but it can be an uphill battle in many cases.

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I would definitely agree with your argument. Pragma makes an excellent point as well.

WahineMommy said:

Thank you all for your responses. I do appreciate it. While I don't have to worry about living expenses (my husband has been the primary earner for awhile), that is still a lot of debt... Nearly half a mortgage. I'm having a hard time justifying that.

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Sounds like a good conclusion to me.

MSW or NP will give you more job options and can definitely be clinical in the focus of practice. If your goal is to go to work in the clinical field the PsyD will be the longer and more expensive way to get there.

docma said:

MSW or NP will give you more job options and can definitely be clinical in the focus of practice. If your goal is to go to work in the clinical field the PsyD will be the longer and more expensive way to get there.

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Having practiced on the Masters level before pursuing my Psy.D., I don't believe that Masters level training is enough to prepare people for clinical practice, particularly with challenging or complicated presenting issues and diagnoses. I truly believe that the additional training is worth it.

However, it is important to know the costs, and do as much as you can to minimize them (research assistantships, not choosing the most expensive schools, trying to get scholarships, etc.)

Also, I just wanted to mention that the amount of applied clinical practice classes in some Psy.D. programs can really demonstrate the difference. My program required Cognitive therapy, Behavior therapy, Behavioral Medicine courses and offered applied therapy courses like DBT, Problem-Solving therapy etc. as well as diagnosis specific applied courses like Sleep disorders, Substance Use Disorders, Eating disorders, Anxiety disorders etc. that taught diagnosis-specific ESTs.

Point is, knowing the curriculum offered may also help you determine fit.

WahineMommy said:

Thank you all for your responses. I do appreciate it. While I don't have to worry about living expenses (my husband has been the primary earner for awhile), that is still a lot of debt... Nearly half a mortgage. I'm having a hard time justifying that.

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My thoughts exactly.

ClinPsychEnthus said:

Having practiced on the Masters level before pursuing my Psy.D., I don't believe that Masters level training is enough to prepare people for clinical practice, particularly with challenging or complicated presenting issues and diagnoses. I truly believe that the additional training is worth it.

However, it is important to know the costs, and do as much as you can to minimize them (research assistantships, not choosing the most expensive schools, trying to get scholarships, etc.)

Also, I just wanted to mention that the amount of applied clinical practice classes in some Psy.D. programs can really demonstrate the difference. My program required Cognitive therapy, Behavior therapy, Behavioral Medicine courses and offered applied therapy courses like DBT, Problem-Solving therapy etc. as well as diagnosis specific applied courses like Sleep disorders, Substance Use Disorders, Eating disorders, Anxiety disorders etc. that taught diagnosis-specific ESTs.

Point is, knowing the curriculum offered may also help you determine fit.

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Except you can take these courses with people who invented the treatment by enrolling in their workshops and trainings. You can learn more in a good 3-5 day workshop than most semester long classes. There is no need to spend 7 years in training without earning an income and racking up debt if you want to do therapy as a career.

The PsyD makes no sense if it is unfunded because folks don't want research/academic careers. Compare it to other professional/practitioner fields, including law, business or NP. Most of these other degrees require 1-3 years of training total vs. 7 years for the PsyD. The PsyD also has a significantly lower income and higher average debt than law/mba/np and pretty much any other health care provider aside from the MD. Due to debt, there is a huge movement to reduce length of training in other practitioner programs, including MD, JD, MBA. So in the future JD programs are going to be 2 years, some MBA programs are already 1 year and the MD is moving to a 3 year model.

I felt the same way on these forums, the anti-PsyD sentiment is demoralizing after a while, but it is other people's opinions and there are generalizations being made. However, I see that people are contextualizing their thoughts and I really appreciate that mostly because there are many PsyD programs that are probably similar to balanced PhD programs, but offer different opportunities and more clinically oriented education.

I am in a non-funded research oriented PsyD program and to be honest, the benefit I see between MSW and PsyD is the opportunity to perform assessments. If you know you enjoy assessment (and you do not have an opportunity to do a PhD program and want to be more clinically oriented), PsyD is an obvious choice.

HOWEVER, the costs are always a major concern and I agree with many people on this thread that you have to consider what kind of lifestyle you want to live. Do you want to start a family? Do you want to be restricted to a particular region in the country? What does "comfortable" mean for you?

I chose a PsyD over an MSW, but there are definitely benefits for both and I sometimes question my decision. However, I am getting amazing experience from my program, I benefit from their reputation in the region as a distinguished school, and I am receiving experience that I would not have had otherwise in an MSW program.

You have to decide what is more important to you: the money, the kind of job, the experience/populations you'll work with? With whatever decision you come to, good luck. If you are more therapy oriented, not matter what, you will be able to do that with either degree.

psychdorkling said:

I am in a non-funded research oriented PsyD program and to be honest, the benefit I see between MSW and PsyD is the opportunity to perform assessments. If you know you enjoy assessment (and you do not have an opportunity to do a PhD program and want to be more clinically oriented), PsyD is an obvious choice.

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Thanks for your post. I agree with you that the assessment piece is clearly going to differentiate PsyD vs. MSW.

I'm confused about one thing, what is a research oriented PsyD program? Every PsyD program i've seen is a practitioner-scholar model---even rutgers and baylor fit under this model.

I don't think most people are anti-PsyD on this forum. You are generalizing as well from a few comments. The cost is really the main issue for most. I recommend PsyD programs if they are fully funded, have small cohorts, and good outcomes. People on this forum also don't recommend PhD programs that are unfunded and have poor outcomes.

My opinions about debt have been formed in part by knowing many early career psychologists with over 100K in debt from both PsyD and PhD programs (I live in a location where many people attend unfunded programs even though I went to a funded program). These folks did not worry about this in graduate school and recommended the path at the time. Now in their 30's and 40's they all regret their decisions since debt has placed significant limitations on their careers, their ability to save for retirement, take out a mortgage on a house/condo and in some cases have children. This is why I wouldn't listen too much to current students and seek out early career psychologists.

graduatingsoon said:

Thanks for your post. I agree with you that the assessment piece is clearly going to differentiate PsyD vs. MSW.

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Wait a minute... I've seen that point come up a few times and I don't think it's true at all. Where did you hear that MSWs can't perform assessments? Even if they can't, i'm 99% sure that LCSWs can (which is like 2 more years of experience and a test after you get the MSW). I've never heard that MSWs can't, my girlfriend is getting her MSW right now and i'm pretty sure I recall her learning assessments.

LucidMind said:

Wait a minute... I've seen that point come up a few times and I don't think it's true at all. Where did you hear that MSWs can't perform assessments? Even if they can't, i'm 99% sure that LCSWs can (which is like 2 more years of experience and a test after you get the MSW). I've never heard that MSWs can't, my girlfriend is getting her MSW right now and i'm pretty sure I recall her learning assessments.

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Psychological assessment may, in some states, be limited to psychologists. Even if it's not legally restricted, there's the ethical contention of one being able to competently administer (not a big deal) and interpret (much bigger deal) the instruments, which is why for most of the more psychometrically complex measures, publishers require proof of appropriate education/training.

Hmm interesting, didn't realize it was a state by state issue. Yeah, that makes sense. Maybe MSWs can administer certain, simple tests, but not the more advanced ones.

LucidMind said:

Hmm interesting, didn't realize it was a state by state issue. Yeah, that makes sense. Maybe MSWs can administer certain, simple tests, but not the more advanced ones.

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Obviously, it doesn't take much to interpret a BDI (although clinically sig reductions with treatment is another topic), but I have never know an MSW who had any formal course work in Psychometric theory, much less training in how to admin and interpret WAISs and other neurocognitive measures.

So many of these gripes are unfounded for certain Psy.D programs (like mine). Everyone here graduates in 4 years+ 1 year paid internship. Everyone has gotten placed this year. There are both people who have not graduated in 4, not graduated at all, not gotten placed, and those who drop out. I wish I had realized this is often a decision the individual makes, not a reflection on the program (at least not necessarily). I assumed Psy.D would be inadequate etc, but it is more than great (assuming you wish to do therapy or testing).
Your decision seems to lie in whether you want social work or psychology training which is a difficult decision. MSW is a terminal degree in 2 years, Psy.D is terminal, but in 4-5. Master's in Psych is a little archaic and is something the APA is actually starting to take steps to quash. This is not a terminal degree and in many states it cannot (or will not under soon to be restrictions from APA) practice without being technically under a doctorate of some kind.
Your question is what many, including myself, have struggled with. It seems like many like the idea of a Ph.D without understanding the differences between the two degrees. Some internship sites don't allow Psy.Ds to apply, some only accept Psy.Ds. I apologize for the great amount of conflicting information I am sure is still traversing the web, as it can only muddle your decision further.
Ok, if you skipped that rant, here is my conclusion. How good a degree will be (between Psy.D and PhD) is dependent on the program. Little can be generalized about the degrees as a whole. It seems like you are looking at the correct stats by which to judge a program, though. If it is indeed a respectable program with good standing in APA and appropriate outcomes, there should be no hesitancy in taking on the loans of a Psy.D. Either the government or private practice will pay it back (judginf from the graduates of my school).

wallacmb said:

Either the government or private practice will pay it back (judginf from the graduates of my school).

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Where is JeyRo?

wallacmb said:

Either the government or private practice will pay it back (judginf from the graduates of my school).

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Interesting, someone on this forum already established that PP does not fall under the public interest loan repayment program and that the median salaries were low for those with 1-5 years of experience after licensure (55K according to APA salary survey).

PsyD students keep thinking that the government will pay their 150-200K in loans. How many doctoral-level clinical psychologists do you think are actually working for the government?!? According to the APA survey in 2009, 8% were working for the federal government, including VA, and another 2% in state government.

Also, please check out the doctorate employment survey from the APA from 2011. They survey graduates 1 year after obtaining their degree. You may be surprised about starting salaries and unemployment rates, especially for PsyD graduates. They are actually higher than unemployment rates for folks with BA degrees, which is at 4.5 or so, based on this survey

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-doc-empl/index.aspx?tab=4

graduatingsoon said:

Interesting, someone on this forum already established that PP does not fall under the public interest loan repayment program and that the median salaries were low for those with 1-5 years of experience after licensure (55K according to APA salary survey).

PsyD students keep thinking that the government will pay their 150-200K in loans. How many doctoral-level clinical psychologists do you think are actually working for the government?!? According to the APA survey in 2009, 8% were working for the federal government, including VA, and another 2% in state government.

Also, please check out the doctorate employment survey from the APA from 2011. They survey graduates 1 year after obtaining their degree. You may be surprised about starting salaries and unemployment rates, especially for PsyD graduates. They are actually higher than unemployment rates for folks with BA degrees, which is at 4.5 or so, based on this survey

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-doc-empl/index.aspx?tab=4

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Educational entitlement at its finest, huh? "I deserve my degree and someone else should pay for it!" How dare you question my reliance on Obama!

Pragma said:

Where is JeyRo?

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You rang?

I guess there's not much else I can add except that even if you're in that 10% of psychologists who manage to land a government job (which will be difficult as an FSPS grad because you'll be competing against funded program grads who are frankly far more competitive than you, generally speaking), you'll find that loan repayment programs are hardly the panacea they are marketed as.

And the idea that one can easily service one's loan repayment doing a private practice is laughable. Unless you're some sort of business prodigy, I think that's a fantasy.

JeyRo said:

You rang? .

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I suppose 2.5 day response time is to be expected from a government employee ...although I assume that SDN doesn't count as work!

Pragma said:

I suppose 2.5 day response time is to be expected from a government employee ...although I assume that SDN doesn't count as work!

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Burn...

erg923 said:

Burn...

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WahineMommy said:

Updated FYI… according to APPIC the APA match rate for 2000-2010 is 78.9%.
Don't know if that would sway one either way.

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I believe the number you are quoting is for APPIC + APA. APPIC is not accredited. The number for APA is somewhere around 50% or 55%. That's why we have been steering people away from certain programs. Your earlier statement that the program you are considering has a match rate of 90% probably includes APPIC (you really want to aim for the apa internship).