Pre-Med asking question about material in medical school

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MortellarPreMed

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Hey everyone, I'm a pre-med so please excuse my ignorance but I was just hoping for an honest response.

In med school/medical field how much do you actually use chemistry and physics? I ask this because obviously I struggle with the two. I know chemistry must come into play at some point (biochem) but what type of chem is it? Is it like chemical equilibrium with really long calculations or more conceptual memorization type of stuff? I ask because I do well in the bio-type sciences but when you throw math at me with long equations and calculations i really start to suck.

Examples of how they are used would be much appreciated,

Thanks,
- Aspiring Doctor
 
I would say that the concepts used from your chem/physics classes will be VERY basic and more of the "biological" variety. Some will tell you that a solid understanding of physics will help you truly "get" physiology but this is mostly BS in my opinion. I wouldn't let fear of this hold you back. Just make sure you do well enough in the courses to actually get INTO medical school as they are pre-reqs!

Survivor DO
 
Don't worry about it. I also really sucked at physics and the math part of gen chem. To be honest, there is a running joke in my school that we are all here because we hate math (medicine is one of the only "sciences" where you don't use a ton of math). I am sure it is different from school to school, but so far the only calculations that I have had to do was in my Evidence Based Medicine class (stupid stats.....). For instance, I am currently in neuro, and while the Nernst equation was used in a lecture to explain to us about neuronal propagation, we won't ever have to use that equation in an exam. It is not necessary at all to be good at chem or physics to be a successful med student/physician. Don't worry. The only sucky part is that you need to know this stuff pretty well to do well on the MCAT. It's pretty stupid that you have to learn stuff that you will never need, but you gotta play the game to get paid 😉
 
Yeah, whatever chemical or physical concepts you need to know will be very basic and mostly sort of instinctual. Just shoot for the grade, you don't have to have a great understanding of them to do well in med school. Actually in the first two years you barely have to understand ANYTHING, just memorize.
 
If you pass gen chem/physics, you probably have the necessary information. That being said, you probably need to do more than pass to get into medical school.
 
depends on how deeply involved you get in each field. Every area of medicine incorporates a certain amount of chem/phys principles (especially CV and pulm), but a lot of the time it isn't necessary to have a remarkable understanding of these principles unless you're a specialist in the field. For instance, someone mentioned the Nernst equation; not necessary to know if you want to gain a general understanding of neuro, but I'd really hope my neurologist understands the physics behind that equation and why ions do what they do--especially if they're going to start prescribing me meds that screw around with those ionic balances. I don't care if my FM or EM or OB/GYN doc knows much about Nernst though.

To get through med school, though, an intimate understanding of chem/phys isn't all that necessary
 
MortellarPreMed said:
Hey everyone, I'm a pre-med so please excuse my ignorance but I was just hoping for an honest response.

In med school/medical field how much do you actually use chemistry and physics? I ask this because obviously I struggle with the two. I know chemistry must come into play at some point (biochem) but what type of chem is it? Is it like chemical equilibrium with really long calculations or more conceptual memorization type of stuff? I ask because I do well in the bio-type sciences but when you throw math at me with long equations and calculations i really start to suck.

Examples of how they are used would be much appreciated,

Thanks,
- Aspiring Doctor
Click to expand...

Extreme basics are asked. You'll be using some physics and chemistry in physiology but very basic stuff.
 
The only things you use from chem/phys is as follows:

Equilibrium for chemistry

V=IR and it's variations for physics.

That's it.
 
I tend to disagree with some of what's been posted. We actually used quite a few physical principles in physiology. I'm not saying you need to be Einstein or anything, but you'll likely encounter a fair amount of math/equations, at least that was my experience in physiology. A few examples are things like Nernst potentials, Ohm's law, Poiseuille's law ect. It's not rocket science, but you may have to spend a little extra time thinking it through conceptually.

With that being said, you may not. Several of our faculty members are prominent biophysics researchers, so we may have just gotten a little more depth than most medical school curriculums offer. Either way, you'll be fine. If you know the stuff well enough to get through the MCAT, then you'll be more than capable of doing well with the material in medical school.
 
kwel said:
depends on how deeply involved you get in each field. Every area of medicine incorporates a certain amount of chem/phys principles (especially CV and pulm), but a lot of the time it isn't necessary to have a remarkable understanding of these principles unless you're a specialist in the field. For instance, someone mentioned the Nernst equation; not necessary to know if you want to gain a general understanding of neuro, but I'd really hope my neurologist understands the physics behind that equation and why ions do what they do--especially if they're going to start prescribing me meds that screw around with those ionic balances. I don't care if my FM or EM or OB/GYN doc knows much about Nernst though.

To get through med school, though, an intimate understanding of chem/phys isn't all that necessary
Click to expand...

You do realize the Nernst potential applies to more than just neuronal membranes, right? FM and EM docs manipulate ion concentrations all the time.
 
JABWS said:
You do realize the Nernst potential applies to more than just neuronal membranes, right? FM and EM docs manipulate ion concentrations all the time.
Click to expand...

Yes, well, this is akin to saying that I do a whole bunch of force calculations with every movement that I make. It isn't necessary to know the underlying principles in order to function adequately. I don't think that knowing those principles is useless, but it certainly isn't necessary IMO.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
NickNaylor said:
Yes, well, this is akin to saying that I do a whole bunch of force calculations with every movement that I make. It isn't necessary to know the underlying principles in order to function adequately. I don't think that knowing those principles is useless, but it certainly isn't necessary IMO.

Sent from my Nexus 7
Click to expand...

Not really. I'm only a first year, but already I've been pimped on Nernst potentials and Poiseuille's law in a clinical setting. It's not because the professors are being jerks, it's because this stuff matters. Next time you see a third/fourth year, ask them if they know that blood flow is proportional to the fourth power of the vessel radius, I promise you they will.

I guess you could probably be "functional" without some of this stuff, but you'd be one lousy doctor.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that you'll need to make a bunch of calculations on the wards. In my experience, and from what I've gathered from MS3/MS4s, it is important that you understand the clinical implications of a lot of the physical principles you learned in physiology. For instance, why a small change in extracellular K concentration is typically a bigger problem than a small change in extracellular Na concentration, and how each affects the membrane potential. Or why atherosclerosis can have such a drastic influence on blood flow and pressure.
 
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JABWS said:
Not really. I'm only a first year, but already I've been pimped on Nernst potentials and Poiseuille's law in a clinical setting. It's not because the professors are being jerks, it's because this stuff matters. Next time you see a third/fourth year, ask them if they know that blood flow is proportional to the fourth power of the vessel radius, I promise you they will.

I guess you could probably be "functional" without some of this stuff, but you'd be one lousy doctor.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that you'll need to make a bunch of calculations on the wards. In my experience, and from what I've gathered from MS3/MS4s, it is important that you understand the clinical implications of a lot of the physical principles you learned in physiology. For instance, why a small change in extracellular K concentration is typically a bigger problem than a small change in extracellular Na concentration, and how each affects the membrane potential. Or why atherosclerosis can have such a drastic influence on blood flow and pressure.
Click to expand...


Agree. So, answering the OP's question, the math behind the theory is not important. Understanding the theory is what you need to be a good clinician.
 
Chem has nothing to do with clinical medicine. You need to know chemistry to be a clinician like you need to know mechanics to drive a car.
 
JABWS said:
Not really. I'm only a first year, but already I've been pimped on Nernst potentials and Poiseuille's law in a clinical setting. It's not because the professors are being jerks, it's because this stuff matters. Next time you see a third/fourth year, ask them if they know that blood flow is proportional to the fourth power of the vessel radius, I promise you they will.

I guess you could probably be "functional" without some of this stuff, but you'd be one lousy doctor.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that you'll need to make a bunch of calculations on the wards. In my experience, and from what I've gathered from MS3/MS4s, it is important that you understand the clinical implications of a lot of the physical principles you learned in physiology. For instance, why a small change in extracellular K concentration is typically a bigger problem than a small change in extracellular Na concentration, and how each affects the membrane potential. Or why atherosclerosis can have such a drastic influence on blood flow and pressure.
Click to expand...
Yes, you do need an 8th grade level understanding of chemistry for clinical medicine. Good point.
 
John Lannister said:
Chem has nothing to do with clinical medicine. You need to know chemistry to be a clinician like you need to know mechanics to drive a car.
Click to expand...

This is a completely ignorant statement. Come back when you know what the hell you're talking about.
 
John Lannister said:
Yes, you do need an 8th grade level understanding of chemistry for clinical medicine. Good point.
Click to expand...

Based on your previous two posts, I'm starting to question whether you understand what the word "chemistry" means.
 
JABWS said:
Not really. I'm only a first year, but already I've been pimped on Nernst potentials and Poiseuille's law in a clinical setting. It's not because the professors are being jerks, it's because this stuff matters. Next time you see a third/fourth year, ask them if they know that blood flow is proportional to the fourth power of the vessel radius, I promise you they will.

I guess you could probably be "functional" without some of this stuff, but you'd be one lousy doctor.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that you'll need to make a bunch of calculations on the wards. In my experience, and from what I've gathered from MS3/MS4s, it is important that you understand the clinical implications of a lot of the physical principles you learned in physiology. For instance, why a small change in extracellular K concentration is typically a bigger problem than a small change in extracellular Na concentration, and how each affects the membrane potential. Or why atherosclerosis can have such a drastic influence on blood flow and pressure.
Click to expand...

Yeah but that's because that's all Step 1 stuff. If I crack open the equations in the back of First Aid I have to memorize...oh hai there Poiseuille's law. Memorizing a couple equations does not complicated physics make.

K+ dictating the membrane potential? Also a Step 1 question. I've had 2-3 UWorld questions on that specific principle. You really don't have to think anything through for those though...I guess you could if you wanted to.

I would consider these things very basic physics and chemistry. Certainly much less detail than a gen chem or general physics class.

Edit: Also, remember that the OPs concern is if he has to do math with long equations and calculations, not really if he has to conceptualize. I would absolutely say no to that.
 
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I'll go against the grain and argue that knowing the concepts from chemistry and physics is vastly useful for medical school. A solid chunk of physiology is made much easier by knowing physics and chemistry concepts. Cardiovascular? Physics. Respiratory? Physics. Renal? Acid/base chemistry. Neurophysiology? Physics. Being able to reason your way through material is an incredibly valuable tool. Learning that stuff well during undergrad definitely made life much easier in med school for me. To be fair though, I did tend to take the calculus-heavy stuff (which, IMHO, was much more conceptual than the physics/chemistry where you just memorized equations).

Even if you don't use some of this stuff on a daily basis (and you don't), the importance of these classes during undergrad is that they teach you how to approach problems a certain way and solve them. Of all the classes I've taken in my life, including med school classes, the most valuable ones I've taken are the calculus courses back in high school and early undergrad. Do I use calculus everyday? Nope. So, why do I think it's so valuable? Because it played an important role in developing how I approach problems. It's the same case with physics and chemistry. I would encourage premeds to not blow off these classes because "they don't matter" in medicine -- on the contrary, I've found them to be vastly useful in developing my critical-thinking ability and for problem-solving, even in subjects completely unrelated to them.

Hope that made sense.

TL;DR -- Don't underestimate the usefulness of these pre-req courses in developing your critical-thinking skills.

Edit: I guess I didn't really answer the OP's question regarding the use of long equations and calculations. If you understand the concept, you don't have to memorize an equation. They go hand-in-hand. Also, the equations thrown around in physiology aren't very long, so don't stress out about that.
 
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calvnandhobbs68 said:
Yeah but that's because that's all Step 1 stuff. If I crack open the equations in the back of First Aid I have to memorize...oh hai there Poiseuille's law. Memorizing a couple equations does not complicated physics make.

K+ dictating the membrane potential? Also a Step 1 question. I've had 2-3 UWorld questions on that specific principle. You really don't have to think anything through for those though...I guess you could if you wanted to.

I would consider these things very basic physics and chemistry. Certainly much less detail than a gen chem or general physics class.
Click to expand...

That's all Step 1 stuff? :bang: Why do you think you learn "Step 1 stuff?"

Like I've already said, you don't have to be a theoretical physicist or PhD chemist to understand medicine, but if you can't appreciate the applicability of physical and chemical concepts in the practice of medicine, then you're really not paying attention.
 
JABWS said:
That's all Step 1 stuff? :bang: Why do you think you learn "Step 1 stuff?"

Like I've already said, you don't have to be a theoretical physicist or PhD chemist to understand medicine, but if you can't appreciate the applicability of physical and chemical concepts in the practice of medicine, then you're really not paying attention.
Click to expand...

It's not the fact that you don't need to be a theoretical physicist or PhD chemist. It's the fact that you don't need to know 90% of the equations you learn in gen chem or physics. Will you ever actually have to calculate out the Nernst equation for anything? Helllll no.

The OP doesn't care about "appreciating the applicability of physical and chemical concepts", he just really wanted to know if he was going to ever use the long equations and calculations he has to do right now. The answer is no. He seems to be good with the "conceptualization and memorization type stuff" so I think he'll be all right.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
It's not the fact that you don't need to be a theoretical physicist or PhD chemist. It's the fact that you don't need to know 90% of the equations you learn in gen chem or physics. Will you ever actually have to calculate out the Nernst equation for anything? Helllll no.

The OP doesn't care about "appreciating the applicability of physical and chemical concepts", he just really wanted to know if he was going to ever use the long equations and calculations he has to do right now. The answer is no. He seems to be good with the "conceptualization and memorization type stuff" so I think he'll be all right.
Click to expand...

As do I. I was still reeling from the person who said chem has nothing to do with clinical medicine. Srry for taking it out on you.
 
JABWS said:
As do I. I was still reeling from the person who said chem has nothing to do with clinical medicine. Srry for taking it out on you.
Click to expand...

Relax chief. Having a cool head, resisting trivial battles and keeping your composure are far more important than nerst equations.

I've just given you invaluable advice and you've been served. Thanks for playing.
 
John Lannister said:
Relax chief. Having a cool head, resisting trivial battles and keeping your composure are far more important than nerst equations.

I've just given you invaluable advice and you've been served. Thanks for playing.
Click to expand...

It's Nernst equation, but thanks, I'm glad I could take part in your little game.
 
You guys are making this way too complex. If you pass the classes and get a good enough MCAT score to get accepted, you'll have learned all you needed for physics and chem
 
JP2740 said:
You guys are making this way too complex. If you pass the classes and get a good enough MCAT score to get accepted, you'll have learned all you needed for physics and chem
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone! Sorry if I may have initiated a minor feud between some of you. Any more replies would be great

- Aspiring Doctor
 
An understanding of how changing quantities in formulas like the Nernst equation will be the most math you do. Generally, you can qualitatively think through those types of problems by knowing general principles--no one ever uses trigonometry to read EKGs.

That being said, you'll do more math in college--or even in high school--than you will do in medical school.
 
Moving to pre-allo.

There are tiny parts of chemistry and physics that are used (think pharmacology and neurophysiology, respectively), but there's a lot more pattern-recognition and memorization I feel in med school vs undergrad.
 
I feel like I answered this question last month...

blub1212 said:
(medicine is one of the only "sciences" where you don't use a ton of math).
Click to expand...

I don't know about you, but I've used a ton of math in the PICU. Primarily equations (not necessarily the values of the equations, just the equations themselves), and figuring out dosing, but still, math.

calvnandhobbs68 said:
Yeah but that's because that's all Step 1 stuff. If I crack open the equations in the back of First Aid I have to memorize...oh hai there Poiseuille's law. Memorizing a couple equations does not complicated physics make.

K+ dictating the membrane potential? Also a Step 1 question. I've had 2-3 UWorld questions on that specific principle. You really don't have to think anything through for those though...I guess you could if you wanted to.
Click to expand...

I've actually had to know a few equations on the wards. Not many, but a few. These aren't things you can just throw out after step 1.

For the record, cardiologists and radiation oncologists use a ton of physics. Yes, if you're going to be a GP, you probably don't need to know it so well, but that doesn't mean that your basic physics concepts aren't important, and in certain professions, they're far more important.
 
JABWS said:
You do realize the Nernst potential applies to more than just neuronal membranes, right? FM and EM docs manipulate ion concentrations all the time.
Click to expand...

No, they don't, not in the same way a neurologist does. Of course everyone should have a basic understanding of these principles, but you can't expect everyone to have a deep understanding of these things. It's unrealistic (and frankly not that useful).

JABWS said:
Not really. I'm only a first year, but already I've been pimped on Nernst potentials and Poiseuille's law in a clinical setting. It's not because the professors are being jerks, it's because this stuff matters. Next time you see a third/fourth year, ask them if they know that blood flow is proportional to the fourth power of the vessel radius, I promise you they will.

I guess you could probably be "functional" without some of this stuff, but you'd be one lousy doctor.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that you'll need to make a bunch of calculations on the wards. In my experience, and from what I've gathered from MS3/MS4s, it is important that you understand the clinical implications of a lot of the physical principles you learned in physiology. For instance, why a small change in extracellular K concentration is typically a bigger problem than a small change in extracellular Na concentration, and how each affects the membrane potential. Or why atherosclerosis can have such a drastic influence on blood flow and pressure.
Click to expand...

The bolded stuff explains a lot of your ignorance. You have no idea what's required of a doctor as an MS1.

JABWS said:
This is a completely ignorant statement. Come back when you know what the hell you're talking about.
Click to expand...

Again, same to you.

JABWS said:
That's all Step 1 stuff? :bang: Why do you think you learn "Step 1 stuff?"

Like I've already said, you don't have to be a theoretical physicist or PhD chemist to understand medicine, but if you can't appreciate the applicability of physical and chemical concepts in the practice of medicine, then you're really not paying attention.
Click to expand...

Talk to any attending and they'll tell you how useless Step 1 knowledge is. Again, you'll understand more when you're not an MS1
 
Thanks again everyone, I recently asked the internist I shadowed and he said the Chemistry you use in undergrad and for the MCAT will not be used in that depth again. Perhaps he was talking more in primary care? How would it be used for other specialties like, psych, anesthesiology, surgery or derm?
 
Biology was the only course that served any utility in med school.

There are random concepts here and there that are useful to know in some classes, but most of them you can just look up quickly. Things like Henderson-Hasselbalch is important in pharmacology, electrochemical gradients in membrane potentials, etc.
 
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