10% cut to reimbursements for many procedures

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People still go to medical school in the UK and other countries where they pay doctors with magic beans. We will still have graduates from our U.S. medical schools regardless of what doctor pay becomes. I feel bad for these suckers who endure 10+ years of training for almost not reward.

True but a lot of this has to do with expectations. In the US the expectations are that one excels academically, works their a$$'s off in med school and residency, takes out a huge loan, and exposes themselves to liability legally/financially during their profession in exchange for a still relatively high-paying stable career...My parents are from a former Soviet bloc nation which has obviously vastly changed from that time. Physicians get paid relatively well but nothing like in the US. However their educational path is also very different. They finish "high school" at 16, college/med school also consolidated and also free/next to free. Unsure of precise details with respect to residency or equivalent but no where near the discrepancy between pay/work hours we have here. Also not sure if they have such a thing as medical malpractice. Finally, as a patient if one wants a certain level of care, they pay for it out of pocket. Otherwise what (and when) you get it, is what you get.

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Mid to high six figures? Uh No?

No one is making 500k-900k. In europe and canada they making more like 150k, down to 100k in UK

The evolution of work/compensation ratio will be interesting. I'm a rad not ER. I worked a call shift yesterday which was relatively light but still def over 100 RVUs for the day. I'm an associate at a relatively busy PP and make about 60% of the partners. I could not tolerate anything like this if I was making 150K/year.
 
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The evolution of work/compensation ratio will be interesting. I'm a rad not ER. I worked a call shift yesterday which was relatively light but still def over 100 RVUs for the day. I'm an associate at a relatively busy PP and make about 60% of the partners. I could not tolerate anything like this if I was making 150K/year.

Yes if you pay me like a government employee im going to work like one. Hello 1pph.
 
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We will have some form of Universal gov insurance. what that looks like, I have no clue. It could be total control like medicare/VA or it could be something like Fannie May where the Gov has great influence on the carriers. Whatever happens, its going to result in overall lower compensation. Healthcare currently make up 18% GDP in the US by far the highest % of any country, 50% more than the next closest.

Within 20 years, physicians/hospitals are all going to take haircuts. There is too much momentum for a change.
 
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Yes if you pay me like a government employee im going to work like one. Hello 1ppp

This will likely be one of the scenario. Gov take over, cut pay in half, work half the amount b/c there is no incentive to work hard. Welcome to the private VA sector.
 
This will likely be one of the scenario. Gov take over, cut pay in half, work half the amount b/c there is no incentive to work hard. Welcome to the private VA sector.
Work half the amount? Sure about that?

Just across the border in Canada, ER docs are seeing around 2.5 patients per hour in a single payer system.

Yet their locum ER rates are 120-180/hr....


 
Work half the amount? Sure about that?

Just across the border in Canada, ER docs are seeing around 2.5 patients per hour in a single payer system.

Yet their locum ER rates are 120-180/hr....


It says they also get a large RVU component.
 
Problem is that we've been getting haircuts for the past 20 years and still can't make the system work. We've made up for it by upping the volume but this has/or is going to plateau. Seems like both provider and insurer (CMS) are near their breaking point. It's hard to know how this is going to play out but given that 2024, when medicare trust fund becomes insolvent, is just around the corner, something substantial will likely change though if at all possible politicians will attempt to simply kick the can down the road.

From a strictly financial perspective, a single-payor, capitated system would likely work best but its hard to see that happening anytime soon without major ramifications-large drop in productivity with increased wait times or denial of services, staffing issues, physicians unionizing etc. Also difficult to see how all the private insurers /healthcare systems/pharm and their money/lobby quietly go along with this concept.
 
From the few on this board who've worked in Canada I understand the pay is actually reasonable in some provinces.
I’d be interested to hear those anecdotes.

looks like from this job posting that i could find with concrete numbers, you get $325000 CAD to live in a 200k population metro area. I assume that is for 1.0 FTE similar to US.

You would get $194353 CAD after tax which converts to $151980 USD.


Compare to working in Texas being paid $325000 for W2 job.
You take home $226249 USD.


That difference amounts to ~49% more take home pay for the ER doc in Texas vs British columbia for working presumably similar hours/productivity.

Sure you would also take into account that cost of living is higher in Canada but you would also have health insurance premiums for your W2 job in the states.

But it seems clear to me that you get paid horrendously less in this province of canada than in the states (equivalent to 176/hr usd but also pay way higher tax rates)
 
Not sure why people assume that just because the government takes over, they will work a lot less. Physicians in countries with socialized medicine don't see less patients than we do. They see MORE. Sometimes a lot more. The effort is the only thing that the government can't compel, because it's not easily "metric-ized." But numbers? Oh yeah, they'll make sure you see your numbers.
 
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Not sure why people assume that just because the government takes over, they will work a lot less. Physicians in countries with socialized medicine don't see less patients than we do. They see MORE. Sometimes a lot more. The effort is the only thing that the government can't compel, because it's not easily "metric-ized." But numbers? Oh yeah, they'll make sure you see your numbers.
The best example of what true socialized medicine would like in this country is the VA. It’s possible to be fired from there, but it takes a lot.
 
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Not sure why people assume that just because the government takes over, they will work a lot less. Physicians in countries with socialized medicine don't see less patients than we do. They see MORE. Sometimes a lot more. The effort is the only thing that the government can't compel, because it's not easily "metric-ized." But numbers? Oh yeah, they'll make sure you see your numbers.

And people are upset now at how little time they get with us...
 
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There are a handful of "Good Samaritan" pre-meds out there who are ready to take on and save the world. I guarantee you if tell them that there is a reasonable chance they will not make a six figure income, the numbers of people going into medicine would drop significantly. The loudest voices that make up the "I'm going to save the world like Noah Wylie on ER" crowd are in the minority in my opinion. Despite how altruistic people seem on the surface, if you don't pay them, they won't do the work. History has shown this over and over again. They will go elsewhere and use their good grades in the finance sector, or somewhere else that will fairly compensate them.

I don't think comparing the US to Soviet Russia where morally repugnant crimes occurred and people died in excess numbers of starvation and other treatable conditions is fair. Also, what is the cost of going to medical school in communist Soviet Russia? (I don't know, I'm guessing it's nothing and they tell you you have to go to medical school). Unless we completely make medical school free in the US which probably won't happen, I don't see how it works where you still maintain the same number of physicians in the workforce.

I don't believe the American public will stand for having less doctors to take care of an aging/sicker patient population. Also, don't forget, we live in a world of people showing up to the ED saying "I've had neck pain for 6 months, my best friends sister says I need to get an MRI as soon as possible". These people aren't going to stand by idly and wait for a year to get an MRI they don't need because they don't have enough radiologists or MRI techs.

This is a failed experiment in every corner of the world. It has been tried over and over. 49.999% of Americans who voted for the other guy, a majority Republican Senate and conservative Supreme Court aren't going to just roll over and take it.
Not so sure about that.
Lots of do gooders out there.
People will always be a martyr for MD medicine.


Lol 10000 applications for 90 Stanford spots.
12000 for 120 BU spots
Cue up the NPs. MDs are digging their graves.

We suffocate the supply chain and then HCAs churn out nps, pas, and crnas.
All of us suckers practicing EBM...admins, insurance companies, and hospitals laugh their way to the bank hearing that midlevels order more tests, have more consults, prescribe without discrimination. Its all about $$$$.
We don't need doctors we need more uneducated and under educated midlevels.
 
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If anyone enters/entered this field to be in the top 1%, they were likely misguided. Top 1% or 0.01<x<1% is generally for folks chasing money on Wall Street, not medicine.

I would tell anyone claiming they want to pursue an MD that they will probably be in the top 10% on income over time, not 1% anymore. If you don’t like that you may want to do something else. Problem is, they wouldn’t even know the real difference until it’s too late.
 
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If anyone enters/entered this field to be in the top 1%, they were likely misguided. Top 1% or 0.01<x<1% is generally for folks chasing money on Wall Street, not medicine.

I would tell anyone claiming they want to pursue an MD that they will probably be in the top 10% on income over time, not 1% anymore. If you don’t like that you may want to do something else. Problem is, they wouldn’t even know the real difference until it’s too late.

We will probably be in line with other western countries eventually with salaries between $125K to $150K. They've likely found that's the sweet spot where they can pay physicians a minimum, but still get enough applicants to fill med schools.
 
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If anyone enters/entered this field to be in the top 1%, they were likely misguided. Top 1% or 0.01<x<1% is generally for folks chasing money on Wall Street, not medicine.

I would tell anyone claiming they want to pursue an MD that they will probably be in the top 10% on income over time, not 1% anymore. If you don’t like that you may want to do something else. Problem is, they wouldn’t even know the real difference until it’s too late.

Top 1% was never really in the cards for most physicians. That equates to an income of around 735k/yr. I think many will still land in the top 5% (300k/yr). The debt and work environment does detract from that though obviously.

 
Top 1% was never really in the cards for most physicians. That equates to an income of around 735k/yr. I think many will still land in the top 5% (300k/yr). The debt and work environment does detract from that though obviously.

Top 1% was never really in the cards for most physicians. That equates to an income of around 735k/yr. I think many will still land in the top 5% (300k/yr). The debt and work environment does detract from that though obviously.


most analysis done by WSJ and others suggest closer to $450k-$500k is top 1% threshold, Ive never seen it quite that high at 735k and find that figure hard to believe but, it’s all the same and thanks for sharing. Of course it also depends where you live etc..
 
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We will probably be in line with other western countries eventually with salaries between $125K to $150K. They've likely found that's the sweet spot where they can pay physicians a minimum, but still get enough applicants to fill med schools.
Do you expect mid level pay to fall below those numbers or do you expect them to equalize with physicians?
 
Do you expect mid level pay to fall below those numbers or do you expect them to equalize with physicians?

I'd say LLPs are even much more montarily driven than physicians. I'd be surprised if they'd bother to go to their fake doctor school for 80-90k/yr. So it'll probably equalize because of their powerful lobbying to the clueless idiots in congress.
 
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We will probably be in line with other western countries eventually with salaries between $125K to $150K. They've likely found that's the sweet spot where they can pay physicians a minimum, but still get enough applicants to fill med schools.

Those numbers seem to be off by a couple of factors. One report has the average salary of a physician in Germany with more than 8 years experience as 319,000 Euros per year, which at the current exchange rate is about $386,000 per year.
 
I'd say LLPs are even much more montarily driven than physicians. I'd be surprised if they'd bother to go to their fake doctor school for 80-90k/yr. So it'll probably equalize because of their powerful lobbying to the clueless idiots in congress.

LLP now?
I'm still using PLP.... whats the "L" for?
Keep me current.
 
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Not sure why people assume that just because the government takes over, they will work a lot less. Physicians in countries with socialized medicine don't see less patients than we do. They see MORE. Sometimes a lot more. The effort is the only thing that the government can't compel, because it's not easily "metric-ized." But numbers? Oh yeah, they'll make sure you see your numbers.

I can only speak for radiology but fairly certain that most radiologist in socialized systems do not read anywhere near the amount we do. I think a large part of this is based on defensive medicine and different perspectives (eg. annual screening mammography starting at age 40 versus bi-annual starting at age 50)...The other day on call I read a pan-scan on a 90 something y/o demented pt who may have fallen. This was like her 3rd or 4th pan-scan this year. I also read a pit gland MRI brain that I specifically recommended on a non-emergent basis (an incidental finding found on his negative head CT for trauma). Other countries don't operate like that.

I think its also easy to get confused with the terms Govt-run healthcare, socialized healthcare, universal coverage, and capitation healthcare system.
 
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Not sure if this is true or just a rumor but apparently Pelosi's is adding a last minute surprise medical bill fix that favors insurance companies so that the same hospital-based fields such as rads, ED, anesthesia, path, critical care, could see an additional 30% decrease on top of the 10% cut from CMS.
 
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Those numbers seem to be off by a couple of factors. One report has the average salary of a physician in Germany with more than 8 years experience as 319,000 Euros per year, which at the current exchange rate is about $386,000 per year.


Did you know a German general practitioner sees 243 patients on average per week? If you work 5 days a week, that's 48.6 patients per clinic day. They take av average 7.8 min per visit.


Guess how much they get paid? 4000 euros/month to a maximum of 7000 euros/month by 12 years of practice. You then pay 40% of tax overall on that. THat means, after 12 years as a physician, you get a measly sum of $54,902 USD of after-tax income per YEAR. look at the source yourself: ( Income of medical doctors in Germany )

Did you know 40 percent of doctors in German municipal clinics work 49 to 59 hours a week?

That one in five doctors had even higher weekly averages of 60 to 80 working hours, including all services and overtime?

You add that up, that leaves only 40 percent of doctors working LESS than 49 hours a week.

That is absolutely disgusting for how low they get paid. ( Doctors in German municipal clinics to be on strike amid wage dispute - Xinhua | English.news.cn )

And finally did you know German doctors went on STRIKE back in April of just last year?

To demand a measly 5% pay raise, asking for caps on the number of hours they are forced to work, asking they be paid extra if forced to be on call, and asking for at least two weekends free per month.

( German doctors walk off job in nationwide strike )

Doctors there are forever treated as residents.
 
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Did you know a German general practitioner sees 243 patients on average per week? If you work 5 days a week, that's 48.6 patients per clinic day. They take av average 7.8 min per visit.


Guess how much they get paid? 4000 euros/month to a maximum of 7000 euros/month by 12 years of practice. You then pay 40% of tax overall on that. THat means, after 12 years as a physician, you get a measly sum of $54,902 USD of after-tax income per YEAR. look at the source yourself: ( Income of medical doctors in Germany )

Did you know 40 percent of doctors in German municipal clinics work 49 to 59 hours a week?

That one in five doctors had even higher weekly averages of 60 to 80 working hours, including all services and overtime?

You add that up, that leaves only 40 percent of doctors working LESS than 49 hours a week.

That is absolutely disgusting for how low they get paid. ( Doctors in German municipal clinics to be on strike amid wage dispute - Xinhua | English.news.cn )

And finally did you know German doctors went on STRIKE back in April of just last year?

To demand a measly 5% pay raise, asking for caps on the number of hours they are forced to work, asking they be paid extra if forced to be on call, and asking for at least two weekends free per month.

( German doctors walk off job in nationwide strike )

Doctors there are forever treated as residents.
It may just be that this field is truly for those looking to heal, not make money. Not saying it’s the right balance but I think that holistic passion may have to resurface for some folks lol
 
Not sure if this is true or just a rumor but apparently Pelosi's is adding a last minute surprise medical bill fix that favors insurance companies so that the same hospital-based fields such as rads, ED, anesthesia, path, critical care, could see an additional 30% decrease on top of the 10% cut from CMS.
If pay goes down 10% + 30% I’ll be jumping ship to another specialty. Might as well while I’m still in training and don’t know any different.
 
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Not sure if this is true or just a rumor but apparently Pelosi's is adding a last minute surprise medical bill fix that favors insurance companies so that the same hospital-based fields such as rads, ED, anesthesia, path, critical care, could see an additional 30% decrease on top of the 10% cut from CMS.

Link?
 
Mid to high six figures? Uh No?

No one is making 500k-900k. In europe and canada they making more like 150k, down to 100k in UK

WCI just did a podcast with a physician from abroad talking about salary - worth listening to.
 
You can’t compare other countries salary to ours. A lot of these places they don’t have to drive to work so t have to have any debt and go into medical school after high school.
 
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Not sure if this is true or just a rumor but apparently Pelosi's is adding a last minute surprise medical bill fix that favors insurance companies so that the same hospital-based fields such as rads, ED, anesthesia, path, critical care, could see an additional 30% decrease on top of the 10% cut from CMS.
Source?
 
SMB is always in play, and there are rumors that a few Congressmen are working on introducing last minute legislation to address SMB.

As of right now, nothing new has been introduced. Alexander and Cassidy (a gastroenterologist) reached an agreement that has gathered bipartisan support.

There are ways that hostages can be worn down. Persistence is one way as a hostage will just give up after fighting for so long. Giving overwhelming stimulus can cause someone to feel hopeless (torture stimulus being constant loud noise, lights, and sleep deprivation).

I can tell you that there are many physicians who are feeling like hostages of the insurance industry and legislators, and who are about to throw in the towel either with the fight with Congress or with medicine in general. It's sad to see so many physicians worn down. Telling them to remain strong is like telling a war prisoner to stay strong during waterboarding. Yes, my examples are extreme, but the general concept is spot on. Physicians are overwhelmed and are feeling hopeless.
 
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Latest from ACR is that it is currently not in any year end package but situation is fluid. You should contact your professional organization/lobby, I'm sure they must have something
 
Latest from ACR is that it is currently not in any year end package but situation is fluid. You should contact your professional organization/lobby, I'm sure they must have something

Ha. You have more faith in your lobby than I do of mine.
 
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Ha. You have more faith in your lobby than I do of mine.

I honestly don't but what are the options? A lot of the pre-filled out "call to action" emails have been from other sources like major billing companies and large corporate practices
 
Mid to high six figures? Uh No?

No one is making 500k-900k. In europe and canada they making more like 150k, down to 100k in UK


That works out to about $800,000 at current exchange rates. With more normal (i.e., not Brexit depressed) exchange rates, and including state pension benefits, those salaries should be doubled when converted to US salaries; so a GP making about $1.2M/year, 146 GPs earning between $400-600,000 and 5,500 earning between $200-400,000.

Note these are actual numbers from the NHS for general practitioners; not specialists.

I assume you are aware of the difference between salaries in Pounds and Euros and Dollars, and the value of included pensions, disability, and full health insurance.
 
With more normal (i.e., not Brexit depressed) exchange rates, and including state pension benefits, those salaries should be doubled when converted to US salaries

Uhhh, no.

I find it pretty depressing that only 160 “primary care” docs in the WHOLE country make the equivalent of 260k dollars....

That being said the average is much more sad than these “top earners,” being about 130k for pcps and 180k for specialists (in dollars):

 
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Uhhh, no.

I find it pretty depressing that only 160 “primary care” docs in the WHOLE country make the equivalent of 260k dollars....

That being said the average is much more sad than these “top earners,” being about 130k for pcps and 180k for specialists (in dollars):

Not to mention the endless years that they are "Junior Doctors" making a pauper's wages.
 
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That works out to about $800,000 at current exchange rates. With more normal (i.e., not Brexit depressed) exchange rates, and including state pension benefits, those salaries should be doubled when converted to US salaries; so a GP making about $1.2M/year, 146 GPs earning between $400-600,000 and 5,500 earning between $200-400,000.

Note these are actual numbers from the NHS for general practitioners; not specialists.

I assume you are aware of the difference between salaries in Pounds and Euros and Dollars, and the value of included pensions, disability, and full health insurance.
?? No, Where are you magicking these numbers from?
 
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I am removing Britain from my list of places to move to.
 
Where did EM end up with the final cuts? Rads went from -10% to -4% (for this upcoming year, more cuts to follow)....strange, almost feels like I'm now getting a raise
Is that the final rule? 4%?

I saw on auntminnie somebody posted there would be a freeze for the 2021 year but wasn't able to find any sources. Not like it matters anyway. I'm on the edge of my seat watching to see if there's gonna be anything left of this profession by the time I'm an attending, but it may be better for my mental health to just check out like the majority of my colleagues. Ignorance truly is bliss.
 
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If we can print billions out of thin air to send to Sudan and other countries, as well as print checks for every American, why can't we print money to support our healthcare system?
 
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I had sent my senator one of those emails that Acep/AAEM wanted us to send when balanced billing and cuts in reimbursement were being discussed. Got a generic response today. Anyone want to translate whether it's true that payments to providers will increase in the first half of 2021? Can someone please explain what the following means for us EM docs, if anything at all. Below I'm copy pasting the senator's email response, the first paragraph is really the only important one.

"Given your interest in proposed cuts to the 2021 Medicare Physician Fee Schedule for our nation’s doctors, I wanted to update you on my recent efforts in Congress. The Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021, which passed through the Senate with my support, includes $3 billion to increase payments under the Medicare Physician Fee Schedule while suspending the implementation GPC1X add-on code, boosting payments to physicians and professionals for all services by 3.75 percent throughout 2021 and mitigating the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services’ proposed cuts. Furthermore, the bill also provides a temporary suspension of Medicare sequestration, increasing payment to all providers by 2 percent for the first three months of 2021 by an additional $3 billion.

In the face of challenges presented by the COVID-19 pandemic, it is important that we provide appropriate relief to health care providers and professionals who make up the backbone of our health care system. I am pleased that Congress has finally passed another COVID relief package that is targeted to helping the American people who are most in need. I am hopeful that with continued mask wearing, social distancing, and the authorization of COVID-19 vaccines, we are nearing the end of this pandemic and people can get back to a more normal life soon.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact my office. For more information on the coronavirus and more, I encourage you to visit https://www.portman.senate.gov/coronavirus-information. Please keep in touch.




Sincerely,



Rob Portman
U.S. Senator"
 
If we can print billions out of thin air to send to Sudan and other countries, as well as print checks for every American, why can't we print money to support our healthcare system?

They are, it's just for PLPs.

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