10 Year Moratorium

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miles11

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Here is the definitive Australian government information regarding the 10 year moratorium. If you are an overseas student at an Australian school, you will considered an "overseas trained doctor" in Australia after graduation and from there on out. Obtaining permanent residency in Australia can be quite easy. Citizenship is then just a matter of course. However, citizenship does not change your status as an "OTD".

http://www.immi.gov.au/doctors/index.htm

Doctors Working in Australia
An overseas trained doctor is any doctor who did not obtain their primary medical qualification in Australia. This includes doctors who obtained their primary medical qualification from medical schools in New Zealand. The information in this section is also relevant to overseas students who gained their medical qualifications in Australia and who are not permanent residents of Australia.
Below, you will find links to specific information on the various immigration options available to overseas trained doctors, as well as useful information on life in Australia, multiculturalism, and other relevant issues.

http://www.doctorconnect.com.au/int...r+number+restrictions+for+permanent+residents

Most medical jobs in Australia require the doctor to have a Medicare provider number. You will need to check with your Australian employer which type of Medicare provider number you require for the position.

Overseas trained doctors (OTDs) that require a Medicare provider number which enables them to attract Medicare rebates are subject to Medicare provider number restrictions. These restrictions are different according to whether you are a temporary resident OTD or a permanent resident OTD.

OTDs who take up permanent residency or citizenship in Australia are unable to obtain a Medicare provider number and therefore provide services that attract Medicare rebates unless they work in a District of Workforce Shortage.
This Medicare provider number restriction applies for a period of 10 years starting from the date of issue of permanent residency or the date of first medical registration in Australia, whichever is later. If you are willing to take up a hard-to-fill position as a general practitioner (GP/family physician) in Australia, you may be eligible to participate in the 5 year scheme, which shortens the 10 year restriction to 5 years or less.

OTDs who have been offered a job in a District of Workforce Shortage may apply for an exemption to the 10 year Medicare provider number restriction, which will enable them to be issued with a Medicare provider number. This is referred to as a section 19AB exemption. An application for a section 19AB exemption to these Medicare provider number restrictions is made when applying for a Medicare provider number.

OTDs with permanent residency or citizenship in Australia should note they are also required to work in an Area of Need unless they hold full medical registration in Australia or have completed the standard pathway for specialist assessment or the standard pathway for general practitioner assessment.

The Medicare provider number restrictions for OTDs who are permanent resident or citizens of Australia does not apply to doctors who:


were registered with an Australian State or Territory Medical Board before 1 January 1997 and were not on a temporary resident visa, providing the doctor had retained the continuous legal right to remain in Australia; or
made an application to the Australian Medical Council (AMC), which was received before 1 January 1997, to undertake exams, successful completion of which would ordinarily enable the person to become a medical practitioner; and
on the day the application was receive, the doctor was eligible to undertake those examinations.
OTDs with permanent residency or citizenship in Australia are also subject to a second type of Medicare provider number restriction if they first worked in Australia as a doctor after 1 November 1996. This restriction requires them to meet one of the following requirements in order to be issued with a Medicare provider number and therefore provide services that attract Medicare rebates. They must:

have postgraduate qualifications as a specialist or GP which are recognised by the relevant Australian Specialist Medical College. For overseas trained specialists, this means completion of the standard pathway for specialist assessment in Australia. For GPs, this means Fellowship of the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners. If you have postgraduate qualifications in general practice from a country other than Australia, you must complete the standard pathway for GP assessment in Australia to meet the requirement for Fellowship of the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners; or
be on an approved postgraduate training program in Australia. Approved training programs are offered by the Australian Specialist Medical Colleges and lead to Fellowship of the College. The approved training program for general practitioners is the Australian General Practice Training Program; or
be on an Australian approved workforce program (either the Rural Locum Relief Program in which positions are typically located in Rural, Remote or Metropolitan Area classifications 4--7, or on the Approved Medical Deputising Service Program).

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This is a severe limitation on where you can work and hence career advancement. The medical services offered in workforce shortage areas tend to be quite limited. There is not likely to be any specialty training programs in a rural town of 1000. Often, the only opportunity is to be a CMO. CMOs are career long interns. The don\'t receive any further training after internship. Even rural general practice training positions are limited for OTDs/former overseas students.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/hia1973164/s19ab.html

HEALTH INSURANCE ACT 1973 - SECT 19AB
Medicare benefits not payable in respect of services rendered by certain overseas trained doctors etc.
(1) Subject to subsection (3), a medicare benefit is not payable in respect of a professional service rendered by a person who is an overseas trained doctor or who is a former overseas medical student, unless:

(a) the person first became a medical practitioner before 1 January 1997; or

(b) all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(i) the person was, at a time before 1 January 1997, an overseas trained doctor;

(ii) before 1 January 1997, the Australian Medical Council received an application from the person to undertake examinations, successful completion of which would ordinarily enable the person to become a medical practitioner;

(iii) on the day the application was so received, the person was eligible to undertake those examinations under the rules of the Australian Medical Council as in force on the day the application was so received; or

(d) both of the following conditions are satisfied:

(i) the person first became a medical practitioner before the commencement of this subparagraph;

(ii) the service was rendered after the end of the period of 10 years beginning when the person first became a medical practitioner; or

(e) both of the following conditions are satisfied:

(i) the person was a permanent Australian at the time when the person first became a medical practitioner;

(ii) the service was rendered after the end of the period of 10 years beginning when the person first became a medical practitioner; or

(f) both of the following conditions are satisfied:

(i) the person became a permanent Australian after the time when the person first became a medical practitioner;

(ii) the service was rendered after the end of the period of 10 years beginning when the person became a permanent Australian.

(2) Subject to subsection (3), a medicare benefit is not payable in respect of a professional service rendered on behalf of a person who is an overseas trained doctor or who is a former overseas medical student, unless:

(a) the person first became a medical practitioner before 1 January 1997; or

(b) all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(i) the person was, at a time before 1 January 1997, an overseas trained doctor;

(ii) before 1 January 1997, the Australian Medical Council received an application from the person to undertake examinations, successful completion of which would ordinarily enable the person to become a medical practitioner;

(iii) on the day the application was so received, the person was eligible to undertake those examinations under the rules of the Australian Medical Council as in force on the day the application was so received; or

(d) both of the following conditions are satisfied:

(i) the person first became a medical practitioner before the commencement of this subparagraph;

(ii) the service was rendered after the end of the period of 10 years beginning when the person first became a medical practitioner; or

(e) both of the following conditions are satisfied:

(i) the person was a permanent Australian at the time when the person first became a medical practitioner;

(ii) the service was rendered after the end of the period of 10 years beginning when the person first became a medical practitioner; or

(f) both of the following conditions are satisfied:

(i) the person became a permanent Australian after the time when the person first became a medical practitioner;

(ii) the service was rendered after the end of the period of 10 years beginning when the person became a permanent Australian.

(3) The Minister may, by writing, grant an exemption from the operation of subsections (1) and (2) in respect of a person or a class of persons .

(4) An exemption under subsection (3) may be made subject to such conditions (if any) as the Minister thinks fit.

(4A) In exercising powers under subsection (3) or (4), the Minister must comply with guidelines determined by the Minister under subsection (4B).

(4B) The Minister must, in writing, determine guidelines that apply to the exercise of powers under subsections (3) and (4).

(4C) Without limiting subsection (4B), the guidelines may require that a person must have qualifications of a specified kind in order to qualify for an exemption.

(4D) A determination under subsection (4B) is a disallowable instrument for the purposes of section 46A of the Acts Interpretation Act 1901 .

(5) If a person to whom an exemption under subsection (3) applies breaches a condition of the exemption, the exemption ceases to apply to the person at all times during which the person is in breach.

(6) Despite anything contained in subsection 488(1) of the Migration Act 1958 , the Secretary to the Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs may, for the purpose of:

(a) the granting of an exemption under subsection (3); or

(b) assisting the Minister or the Medicare Australia CEO to ascertain whether a condition of such an exemption has been breached;

disclose to the Minister or to an officer of the Department of Health and Family Services, or to an employee of Medicare Australia, information about the conditions on which a person has entered or remains in Australia.

(7) In this section:

\\\"former overseas medical student\\\" means a person:

(a) whose primary medical qualification was obtained from a medical school located in Australia; and

(b) who was not a permanent resident or an Australian citizen when he or she first enrolled at a medical school located in Australia.

\\\"overseas trained doctor\\\" means a person whose primary medical qualification was not obtained from a medical school located in Australia.

\\\"permanent Australian\\\" means an Australian citizen or permanent resident.

\\\"permanent resident\\\" has the same meaning as in the Migration Act 1958 .

\\\"professional service\\\" does not include a service of a kind referred to in paragraph (b), (ba) or (c) of the definition of professional service in subsection 3(1).
 
Is 'USMedstudent' again up to his old tricks ?
 
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f_w said:
Is 'USMedstudent' again up to his old tricks ?

Who cares who it is? The info is still valid. I think that this is a big consideration that everyone looking at Aus med schools should think about. This forum isn't supposed to be a positive marketing campaign for Aussie med schools. It is supposed to paint a realistic picture of what to expect. It is easy to get caught up in negativity but at the same time you have to look at all the criticisms as well.

The 10 year moratorium represents something inherently wrong with the system here.
 
I think that this is a big consideration that everyone looking at Aus med schools should think about.

Well, people going to AU for medschool schould know it to the extent that you can't count on immigrating into the country afterwards.

Anyone putting this 'information' out here should also be honest enough to inform people that:
- you don't need a medicare # in order to go through specialty training
- certain employed physicians in public hospitals are able to bill medicare under their hospitals billing #
- 'areas of need' which are exempt from the moratorium are plentiful in AU and certainly not limited to the outback or rural areas.

The australian policies are not any better or worse than the US american or canadian policies. In the US, foreign trained docs are often forced to practice in areas of need (called 'medically underserved' or 'healthcare personnel shortage areas' here) for a period of 3 years after they graduate residency. If you go to a different country to practice medicine, you have to deal with the rules the locals come up with. In most countries that import physicians, you are limited to the crumbs that the locals don't want (at least initially). Get used to it.
 
f_w said:
The australian policies are not any better or worse than the US american or canadian policies. In the US, foreign trained docs are often forced to practice in areas of need (called 'medically underserved' or 'healthcare personnel shortage areas' here) for a period of 3 years after they graduate residency. If you go to a different country to practice medicine, you have to deal with the rules the locals come up with. In most countries that import physicians, you are limited to the crumbs that the locals don't want (at least initially). Get used to it.


I am assuming that f_w is Australian because of the quote above. Students that come to Australia and train in Australian medical schools are not "imported physicians". They are locally trained. The term "foreign doctor" is not a reference to cultural background, it refers to where they trained!

The key point is the term "Foreign trained". Of course there are issues with qualifications and making sure that someone who was trained in another system is compatable with the local system. However the moratorium is not about that. It penalizes people based on them being foreigners. Even if they become Australian citizens they are still effected.

I can think of lots of policies in both the US and Canada that make it difficult to get a position based on foreign credentials and visa/citizenship issues. However I can't think of any that would negatively affect their lives on the basis of them having been born in another country alone. (Someone correct me if I am wrong.)
 
I am assuming that f_w is Australian because of the quote above.

Actually, I am not. I just know a couple of OTDs who went to AU and did very well for themselves. They started out with RMO positions in areas of need, got their AMC exam and moved on to accredited training posts. Still, it left them with a couple of years to bridge until they could get medicare numbers, but that is what AoN positions and work in public hospitals is for. Once they had their #s, they moved on into the private sector.

I can think of lots of policies in both the US and Canada that make it difficult to get a position based on foreign credentials and visa/citizenship issues. However I can't think of any that would negatively affect their lives on the basis of them having been born in another country alone. (Someone correct me if I am wrong.)

Well, and it would be so nice if the US would actually stick to their own principles here. Even people who do their entire college and medical education in the US are often in a situation where they have to work in a underserved area to get relief from a discriminatory provision in immigration law ( a provision written into the law at the urging of the american medical association, gee thanks).
If you come to the US to study engineering or physics, you are welcome to stay if you find an employer willing to file the petition for you. Not so in medicine, there are several obstacles designed to keep the influx of immigrant physicians under control.
 
f_w said:
Well, and it would be so nice if the US would actually stick to their own principles here. Even people who do their entire college and medical education in the US are often in a situation where they have to work in a underserved area to get relief from a discriminatory provision in immigration law ( a provision written into the law at the urging of the american medical association, gee thanks).
If you come to the US to study engineering or physics, you are welcome to stay if you find an employer willing to file the petition for you. Not so in medicine, there are several obstacles designed to keep the influx of immigrant physicians under control.

What is the provision in the law that the American medical Assoc. had written in? Just curious so I know what you are talking about. From what I had heard something like 30% of US docs were foreign grads. Difficulties in obtaining work visas is not the same as making a specific policy excluding someone from working due to their background. Would a student who graduated from a US school and obtained US PR status (during or shortly after the program) still be excluded from work based on the fact that they were originally from another country?

Many policies are supposedly based on the difficulty in accepting credentials from other countries since their is no real international accreditation body. It can difficult to argue against policies such as this because they claim to be based on important moral and ethical principles: beneficence and non-malfeasance (ensuring proper health care to the public).

My point is that the moratorium (as it applies to international students studying in Australia) is not designed to ensure the quality or standards of care within the medical profession here. It is designed to keep out foreigners. Othwerwise the policy would not include medical students that trained in and graduated from Australian medical schools. As our ethics instructor at UQ has told us, ethics, morals and law are all separate things. Something can be accepted as morally or ethically wrong and still be written into law.

I had originally thought that someone was trying to open a discussion on this topic instead of simply bashing Aussie schools. The moratorium is something that most aus med student hopefuls should consider before making the decision to come here. Australia is a great country (even if it does have at least one questionable policy). You may get here and decide you like it here. Who knows? Alot can happen in 4 years. If this happens the moratorium will become alot more important to you than you originally thought when deciding to come to Aus.
 
Look, I find the 10 year moratorium to be idiotic and counterproductive for the health of the australian people. But they have to figure that out by themselves.

markdc said:
What is the provision in the law that the American medical Assoc. had written in?

- inability of physicians training in the US on a J1 visa to avail themselves of the same avenues towards a waiver of the foreign residency requirement as any other professional ( e.g. a 'no objection waiver').
- extension of the period it takes to obtain an immigrant visa through the national interest waiver from 3 to 5 years.

Both of these provisions are grace of COGME, the council on graduate medical eduction (whose members are appointed by the AMA).

Both countries discriminate against physicians born abroad, the US through immigration law, australia through restrictions in reimbursement. I don't know which way is worse.
 
Hello,

Sorry for the long hiatus been a bit busy these last few months. About this moratorium I have an update. I did an elective in the NT and found out from some other overseas medical students that became Aussie PRs that there are ways to reduce this time to 3 years. Apparently you have to work in a Zone 7 locale, and then under sponership from the place you are working, they can reduce the time to three years, with most offering a minimum of 5 years.

These places also offer competitive packages of free electricity, rent, internet, fuel, cars etc. everything except meals. So in that sense it's a pretty good package overall. Finally the Australian gov't also puts in an additional 20 000 on top of your salary tax free because you are working in a zone 7 area (they have various amounts, with zone 7 and 20 000 being the most they offer). And some places are offering 1 free international ticket a year.

Though the downside is that some of these places are pretty small towns (probably 10, 000 and under).

HOpe that helps.
 
hmm i'm very confused.... someone please correct me if my understanding is wrong... thanks so much

1) so after i grad from an aus med school, finish 1 year internship, apply for PR immediately.... then from here on, the only way to work in aus is to either 1) wait 10 years to get a provider #, or 2) work in a rural area for 5 years then get a provider #?


2) someone also mentioned that the 10-year-provider-#-restriction rule doesn't apply to those with postgraduate qualifications as a specialist. so does that mean after i do internship, IF i apply for post-grad specialist training immediately, then after completing that, i can be exempted from the 10-year rule?

3) and what is "standard pathway for specialist assessment in Australia"? is that part of post-grad specialist training in aus if i do it in aus?

Thank you in advance for all your help. Thanks!

Will
 
hmm i'm very confused.... someone please correct me if my understanding is wrong... thanks so much

1) so after i grad from an aus med school, finish 1 year internship, apply for PR immediately.... then from here on, the only way to work in aus is to either 1) wait 10 years to get a provider #, or 2) work in a rural area for 5 years then get a provider #?


2) someone also mentioned that the 10-year-provider-#-restriction rule doesn't apply to those with postgraduate qualifications as a specialist. so does that mean after i do internship, IF i apply for post-grad specialist training immediately, then after completing that, i can be exempted from the 10-year rule?

3) and what is "standard pathway for specialist assessment in Australia"? is that part of post-grad specialist training in aus if i do it in aus?

Thank you in advance for all your help. Thanks!

Will

Here is my experience with the 10 year moratorium:

I did an elective in Alice springs where I met quite a few true OTD - fresh from Africa. Most of them were able to cut down this 10 year commitment to 1-2 years depending on where you want to work. Also this includes all of your training post PR. So if you get your PR after internship then go to an area where you can get it down to one year, then in your RMO year, you are free of this commitment. After that you can then transfer wherever you like. I will be following this route.
 
2) someone also mentioned that the 10-year-provider-#-restriction rule doesn't apply to those with postgraduate qualifications as a specialist. so does that mean after i do internship, IF i apply for post-grad specialist training immediately, then after completing that, i can be exempted from the 10-year rule?

3) and what is "standard pathway for specialist assessment in Australia"? is that part of post-grad specialist training in aus if i do it in aus?

Thank you in advance for all your help. Thanks!

Will

No one knows. I've tried getting a straight answer from everyone as the 10 year rule is normally posted on GP websites, however I think it applies to everyone who has received their PR after 1997. No specialist training is anything that is not FM. So Internal med, Radiology etc are all considered specialist training. If you find out if their are exempted from the 10 year rule, let me know, as I've never been able to find anyone who can definitively prove to me that this is the case.
 
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but theoratically, since you don't need a provider # to be a specialist trainee, then you can go thru specialist training in the city.. right?

i mean, the moratorium is basically provider-#-restrictions. please correct me if i'm wrong. thanks.
 
My understanding of this 10 year rule holabaloo is that essentially you have to work 10 years before you can get a medicare (or insert oz equivalent name) number. You need a medicare number to 'bulk bill' or claim partial government/insurance payback for 'private' procedures/visits. You can train in specialities. You can work as a consultant in public hospitals/academia/full fee patients.

As long as you enter australia at the beginning of your training I pretty much see this as a moot point as it will take close to 10 years to become a consultant [surgeon] anyway, and private work is pretty ****e for a new consultant at best, so not much is lost by just working the public system full time for a few more years.

NB this is only my understanding of the issue
 
My understanding of this 10 year rule holabaloo is that essentially you have to work 10 years before you can get a medicare (or insert oz equivalent name) number. You need a medicare number to 'bulk bill' or claim partial government/insurance payback for 'private' procedures/visits. You can train in specialities. You can work as a consultant in public hospitals/academia/full fee patients.

As long as you enter australia at the beginning of your training I pretty much see this as a moot point as it will take close to 10 years to become a consultant [surgeon] anyway, and private work is pretty ****e for a new consultant at best, so not much is lost by just working the public system full time for a few more years.

NB this is only my understanding of the issue

Surgery training is now under the IST program, so as far as I'm aware that's 1 year of internship + 1 year of RMO and then straight into the specific training program, which can be as little as 4 years long...
 
Surgery training is now under the IST program, so as far as I'm aware that's 1 year of internship + 1 year of RMO and then straight into the specific training program, which can be as little as 4 years long...

o 4 years, i guess that's not too long compared to surgery residency in canada/usa. do you know if they are gonna shorten the post-grad training for other specialty like internal med?
 
o 4 years, i guess that's not too long compared to surgery residency in canada/usa. do you know if they are gonna shorten the post-grad training for other speciality like internal med?

The Confusing thing about Australia is that this varies with the hospital. For example certain programs in NSW - like in Tamworth and Taree (smaller hospitals in that region) have a "fast track" training program where you can get right into Basic Physician training right after internship...you then do three years as a basic physician "ie internal med" then do another 3 years as an "advanced physician trainee" "ie fellowship in the US"...So in total you have done 7 years to be a fellow...that is comparable with the US where it would take about 6 years. However if you go to a larger hospital you could spend a few years stuck as an RMO before getting into a BPT program...so it really depends where you want to work.

Keep in mind that once you get into a program in a smaller hospital, nothing is stopping you from transferring to a larger hospital.
 
o 4 years, i guess that's not too long compared to surgery residency in canada/usa. do you know if they are gonna shorten the post-grad training for other specialty like internal med?

Also that's not all surgical training programs some are a bit longer (the minimum I've noted is about 4 years)
 
but theoratically, since you don't need a provider # to be a specialist trainee, then you can go thru specialist training in the city.. right?

i mean, the moratorium is basically provider-#-restrictions. please correct me if i'm wrong. thanks.

Yeah the moratorium is a restriction on provider numbers, so it has absolutely no effect on where you work/do your training unless you want to go to a rural area.

Also the pay is comparable/better (esp per hour) as a public doctor in Australia than one in Canada...
 
Yeah the moratorium is a restriction on provider numbers, so it has absolutely no effect on where you work/do your training unless you want to go to a rural area.

ah so at least doing post-grad training is possible at least.... this clears up the 10-year moratorium rule for me alot! thanks!

so interns, resident medical officers, and registrars ALL don't need provider-# because i guess the university/hospital pays them a salary directly?

Also the pay is comparable/better (esp per hour) as a public doctor in Australia than one in Canada...

here're some figures i've (all in AUD):
intern salary after average overtime: 50k
resident/sho after average overtime: 65-80k
registrar after average overtime: 80-90k

this is before tax of cuz.
 
I dont know where you keep talking about IST from dude... there is SET. You need to do *at least* 2 years as a house surgeon/hmo to apply to SET. If you have your sights set on gen surg you might get it after those two years but imo you are dreaming if you think you can walk into a speciality like ENT/plastics/ortho after that (unless you rock). SET is a minimum of 4 years (5 in neurosurg and CT I believe). I think what will eventually happen is the system will essentially lumber about like it has always - people will sit around for years as non-training registrars (after 2 hs years, failing to get into SET, taking non-training positions in the speciality you wish) until spots open. So while technically it is possible to be a consultant after 6 years, more likely it will remain ~8 years average.

Just imo

[edit]

As an example you should look at the required runs
http://www.surgeons.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=15935

eg
Orthopaedic Surgery

Mandatory:

* ICU term
* Emergency term
* Orthopaedics term (3 months)

Recommended:

* ASSET
* EMST
* CCrISP Course
* Rotation in Plastic Surgery, Vascular Surgery, or Neuro Surgery


So its saying at the minimum before the end of 8 terms (ie. 2 years) you have had to have selected your 'top choices' for 3. Minimum. Lets not forget that at least 2 out of those 8 are probably medical, and that if you want to have any snowball's chance in hell of acceptance the ortho term needs to be before application (ie. within first 5 terms). You have to realise as a first year especially that everyone wants to do the ortho run/plastics run / whatever and no-one wants to do rehab or psychiatry. So its luck of the draw in a sense as to whether you get the runs you need in first and second year to apply straight off for third.

Also take into account you are imo quite unlikely to be accepted without having done 'recommended' activities either - ASSET, EMST and CCrISP are courses that have waitlists measured in years (well, I think the average wait is a year).

All this conspires to make the wait even longer if unlucky with simple things like run selections
 
ah so at least doing post-grad training is possible at least.... this clears up the 10-year moratorium rule for me alot! thanks!

so interns, resident medical officers, and registrars ALL don't need provider-# because i guess the university/hospital pays them a salary directly?



here're some figures i've (all in AUD):
intern salary after average overtime: 50k
resident/sho after average overtime: 65-80k
registrar after average overtime: 80-90k

this is before tax of cuz.


Tassie this year is 56 000 before overtime, and the lowest salary i was offered was 53 000 from Darwin, and all of that was before overtime, and salary packaging...so I think those figures are way out of date.

Check out the PGY1 salary for a resident in Canada...it's shocking.
 
I dont know where you keep talking about IST from dude... there is SET. You need to do *at least* 2 years as a house surgeon/hmo to apply to SET. If you have your sights set on gen surg you might get it after those two years but imo you are dreaming if you think you can walk into a speciality like ENT/plastics/ortho after that (unless you rock). SET is a minimum of 4 years (5 in neurosurg and CT I believe). I think what will eventually happen is the system will essentially lumber about like it has always - people will sit around for years as non-training registrars (after 2 hs years, failing to get into SET, taking non-training positions in the speciality you wish) until spots open. So while technically it is possible to be a consultant after 6 years, more likely it will remain ~8 years average.

Just imo

[edit]

As an example you should look at the required runs
http://www.surgeons.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=15935

eg
Orthopaedic Surgery

Mandatory:

* ICU term
* Emergency term
* Orthopaedics term (3 months)

Recommended:

* ASSET
* EMST
* CCrISP Course
* Rotation in Plastic Surgery, Vascular Surgery, or Neuro Surgery


So its saying at the minimum before the end of 8 terms (ie. 2 years) you have had to have selected your 'top choices' for 3. Minimum. Lets not forget that at least 2 out of those 8 are probably medical, and that if you want to have any snowball's chance in hell of acceptance the ortho term needs to be before application (ie. within first 5 terms). You have to realise as a first year especially that everyone wants to do the ortho run/plastics run / whatever and no-one wants to do rehab or psychiatry. So its luck of the draw in a sense as to whether you get the runs you need in first and second year to apply straight off for third.

Also take into account you are imo quite unlikely to be accepted without having done 'recommended' activities either - ASSET, EMST and CCrISP are courses that have waitlists measured in years (well, I think the average wait is a year).

All this conspires to make the wait even longer if unlucky with simple things like run selections

IST (Integrated Surgical Training) is a new program that is starting in 2008...if you have any queries about it please check out the other post where it was discussed. We were told it was called IST at the time we were given a presentation on it, but that was a few months ago and perhaps the name has changed.

As I said, Australia is a complicated place. If you want to get into a program like ENT, which is competitive you can still get in after two years, however it will most likely be in a less competitive place, or if you have good standing with the ENT surgeon. If you are really interested and do all of your electives and relief terms with that particular group you can get in fairly quickly. Is that likely to happen in Sydney or Melbourne, probably not as there is a huge amount of competition in places like that. Even a fairly large city like Townsville has a shortage of ENT registrars; they were advertising the position a few weeks ago and it was pretty much guaranteed that if you had even a passing interest in Surgery, and had some experience in it you would be accepted for the position.

In terms of getting the necessary requirements for applying to the program; again depends on where you work. When we were selecting even elective rotations, or rotations in Gen Surg/Gen Med - there were quite a few places available in the Surg specs. Just depends on what happens in your year - again much easier in place with say 8-20 interns, then one with 60+
 
IST (Integrated Surgical Training) is a new program that is starting in 2008...if you have any queries about it please check out the other post where it was discussed. We were told it was called IST at the time we were given a presentation on it, but that was a few months ago and perhaps the name has changed.

As I said, Australia is a complicated place. If you want to get into a program like ENT, which is competitive you can still get in after two years, however it will most likely be in a less competitive place, or if you have good standing with the ENT surgeon. If you are really interested and do all of your electives and relief terms with that particular group you can get in fairly quickly. Is that likely to happen in Sydney or Melbourne, probably not as there is a huge amount of competition in places like that. Even a fairly large city like Townsville has a shortage of ENT registrars; they were advertising the position a few weeks ago and it was pretty much guaranteed that if you had even a passing interest in Surgery, and had some experience in it you would be accepted for the position.

In terms of getting the necessary requirements for applying to the program; again depends on where you work. When we were selecting even elective rotations, or rotations in Gen Surg/Gen Med - there were quite a few places available in the Surg specs. Just depends on what happens in your year - again much easier in place with say 8-20 interns, then one with 60+

Hey dude, Im fairly sure you're wrong about IST, I tried looking at the link you supplied in the intern thread but that was only stuff all about SET :) No matter... but if you do have a link send it to me.. cheers.

You seem a bit confused about the nature of registrar positions as well... There is no 'non-competitive' training ENT reg positions in Australia... You apply centrally as a group for a certain number of SET 1/2 spots.. and then you get sent around the country as per staffing needs (this may occur at the state level but I don't think so). I don't know about ENT specifically (only using this speciality as an example) but usually you are only attached to one unit for 2 years max.. then moved somewhere else.

The places you are talking about in Townsville sound very much like non-training positions, which is what I was talking about before... I think most people will have to languish as non training regs for a few years while they wait their turn.

Well, thats the way Im looking at things anyway.

Do you have an intern place dude? Mail me if you don't want to say where :D
 
Hey dude, Im fairly sure you're wrong about IST, I tried looking at the link you supplied in the intern thread but that was only stuff all about SET :) No matter... but if you do have a link send it to me.. cheers.

You seem a bit confused about the nature of registrar positions as well... There is no 'non-competitive' training ENT reg positions in Australia... You apply centrally as a group for a certain number of SET 1/2 spots.. and then you get sent around the country as per staffing needs (this may occur at the state level but I don't think so). I don't know about ENT specifically (only using this speciality as an example) but usually you are only attached to one unit for 2 years max.. then moved somewhere else.

The places you are talking about in Townsville sound very much like non-training positions, which is what I was talking about before... I think most people will have to languish as non training regs for a few years while they wait their turn.

Well, thats the way Im looking at things anyway.

Do you have an intern place dude? Mail me if you don't want to say where :D

Hey, If I'm wrong I'd like to know. Thanks for the interesting info.

I think you are talking about non-accredited registrars, and I have seen quite a few in place. However in smaller places I think the recommendation of the surgeon that will be your consultant to the National program, and the fact that there is a vacant spot makes a difference. That is the one thing I've seen about Australia - there is huge variation, and rules seem to be a bit more fluid here, than in other places I've done electives.

Are you an intern btw? Yeah I got some intern places, still tossing up between a few places...may PM you for advice.
 
Here is my experience with the 10 year moratorium:

I did an elective in Alice springs where I met quite a few true OTD - fresh from Africa. Most of them were able to cut down this 10 year commitment to 1-2 years depending on where you want to work. Also this includes all of your training post PR. So if you get your PR after internship then go to an area where you can get it down to one year, then in your RMO year, you are free of this commitment. After that you can then transfer wherever you like. I will be following this route.

dude, how did these docs get it shortened to 1 year? how do you plan to do that? I was aware of the 5 year scheme if you worked in a hard-to-fill position as a GP, but i wouldn't have thought that possible cuz i figured it would require fellowship of the gen prac college. is that correct? i mean you cant exactly go straight from intern to gen prac without gen prac training, right?

also, this may be a stupid question, but dont OTD have to serve in an area of need until they get full-registration? if so, how is it possible to intern in a capital city? is it cuz the area happens to be in an area of need? what am i missing?

comment appreciated.
 
Here is my experience with the 10 year moratorium:

I did an elective in Alice springs where I met quite a few true OTD - fresh from Africa. Most of them were able to cut down this 10 year commitment to 1-2 years depending on where you want to work. Also this includes all of your training post PR. So if you get your PR after internship then go to an area where you can get it down to one year, then in your RMO year, you are free of this commitment. After that you can then transfer wherever you like. I will be following this route.

i just found this:
3.7.3 maximum periods of exemption. These are: two years for temporary
resident doctors and five years for Australian citizen or permanent resident
doctors.

from page 10 of 20 of the document located: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/1F1A3AC0BE0749B7CA2571E2000CCFCE/$File/s19aball.pdf

is this document no longer valid? (i found it through google)
 
ok, found another document regarding the 5 year scheme. apparently this scheme is only to those already holding gen prac postgrad qualifications (not applicable to recent overseas student aussie uni grads).

it stated: "As a result of the National Review, a system of graded incentives was established which categorises locations according to their level of difficulty. The system reduces the overseas trained doctor's contract period before being given an unrestricted provider number by up to two years, provided he or she meets all other program requirements including Fellowship and permanent residency".

from: http://www.healthconnect.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content//work-advice-prov-19ab-5year

but i'm still confused because the same article states the main incentive is that it reduces the 10 yr obligation to 5. but where does the 2 yr reduction from the quote above come in to play?

it is starting to appear that you can only get exemptions once you have obtained fellowship and agree to work in rural areas. by the time you finish gen prac training, half the 10 years has already passed and thus your 5 year requirement of rural work hasnt really reduced the moratorium. i could see how this reduced time for those already holding fellowship but not others.

what am i missing?
 
sorry for posting so much, but i found another site on the NSW rural doctor network regarding reducing the 5 year scheme. seems the possible 2 year reduction is possible for the 5 yr scheme, commiting you to only 3 years. again, i feel you need to have already achieved gen prac fellowship though.

http://www.nswrdn.com.au/client_images/254915.pdf
 
and finally, addressing the issue of having no postgrad qualifications (and little experience), they would be category 5 and ineleigible for the 5 year scheme.

so... i would like to to specialty (physician possibly) training anyway. are there ways of reducing the 10 yr whilst in physician training? must you be pursuing gen prac or rural and remote training to get exemptions? redshift?
 
Amendments to the scheme (5 year scheme)
Category A – locations that are exceptionally difficult for GP recruitment and retention. These are usually in small very remote locations or in rural or remote locations with large Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander populations. The list of these communities must be agreed by each state or territory with the Department of Health and Ageing. For every 12 months served in one of these locations, the OTD can claim two years' reduction in the 5-year requirement, up to a total of three years. A minimum of 12 months must be
served.

this and the above post were taken from the document at http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/amwac/pdf/gp_2005.pdf. search the document for "year scheme" (it is 658 long!).

so it does appear that you could only serve 12 months provided you already have fellowship of the gen prac college. redshift, you going for gen prac? what can i do if i dont want to do gen prac?
 
also, this may be a stupid question, but dont OTD have to serve in an area of need until they get full-registration? if so, how is it possible to intern in a capital city? is it cuz the area happens to be in an area of need? what am i missing?

comment appreciated.


wow good input, jaketheory. well the 10-year-moratorium is basically a restriction-number-restriction. my understanding is that, since interns don't need provider-numbers, they are not limited to where they intern.

please correct me if i'm wrong. thanks!
 
wow good input, jaketheory. well the 10-year-moratorium is basically a restriction-number-restriction. my understanding is that, since interns don't need provider-numbers, they are not limited to where they intern.

please correct me if i'm wrong. thanks!

yes the moratorium is just a medicare provider number restriction.

but... i dont think you read my whole post. i think i mentioned above that OTD are required to work in an area of need if they are not fully registered. interns are not fully registered and do not become fully registered until succesfull completion of the intern year. thus it would seem that the internship would need to be done in an area of need.

someone please correct me if i am wrong.
 
yes the moratorium is just a medicare provider number restriction.

but... i dont think you read my whole post. i think i mentioned above that OTD are required to work in an area of need if they are not fully registered. interns are not fully registered and do not become fully registered until succesfull completion of the intern year. thus it would seem that the internship would need to be done in an area of need.

someone please correct me if i am wrong.

This is wrong,
You can work in any hospital as an intern...the 10 year moratorium will not effect your ability to work in a public hospital, as they do not require provider numbers.
 
This is wrong,
You can work in any hospital as an intern...the 10 year moratorium will not effect your ability to work in a public hospital, as they do not require provider numbers.

red shift. can you explain?

as noted above "OTDs with permanent residency or citizenship in Australia should note they are also required to work in an Area of Need unless they hold full medical registration in Australia or have completed the standard pathway for specialist assessment or the standard pathway for general practitioner assessment".

interns don't hold full registration, so how do they get out of this? i am not arguing. i was under the impression you could intern wherever, and have noticed you posting of getting several internship offers including in capital cities. but it doesnt agree with the area of need statement above.

also, you didnt comment on my questions about how you could get the 10years down to 1, or about the fact that all the info i have found states you have to already hold fellowship to the gen practice college to get any exemptions from the 10 years. could you do that please? would be very appreciated. are you planning to do gen practice? do you know of anyway to get exemptions for those wanting do physician or surgery training?

your comments would be greatly appreciated.

cheers
 
regarding where you can work as an OTD:
"International graduates of Australian universities who have completed PGY1 in NSW may be eligible to stay on for a second year to complete their Postgraduate Year 2 (PGY2). However, at the time of writing, they will only be eligible to work in areas of workforce shortage. Positions are therefore likely to only be available in rural and regional areas".

this is from UNSW medical program (http://www.med.unsw.edu.au/medweb.nsf/page/FAQ_intl#Internship).

this appears to indicate that there are indeed restrictions on where you can work irregardless of having gained full registration or having a medicare provider number. can someone please clarify? feeling desperate here.
 
regarding where you can work as an OTD:
"International graduates of Australian universities who have completed PGY1 in NSW may be eligible to stay on for a second year to complete their Postgraduate Year 2 (PGY2). However, at the time of writing, they will only be eligible to work in areas of workforce shortage. Positions are therefore likely to only be available in rural and regional areas".

this is from UNSW medical program (http://www.med.unsw.edu.au/medweb.nsf/page/FAQ_intl#Internship).

this appears to indicate that there are indeed restrictions on where you can work irregardless of having gained full registration or having a medicare provider number. can someone please clarify? feeling desperate here.

The reason that I know this is wrong is because 1) I've seen overseas trained doctors working as interns in large hospitals 2) I was offered residency positions in large hospitals and there was no problems with this, as they knew I was an International student

I think the UNSW webpage is just offering a conservative view on the whole situation because they could be held liable for it in the future if the International students dont' get job offers.

The NSW offers this year were all 2 year offers, and many of the international students got offers at large hospitals, though admittedly not in the most prestigous areas.
 
red shift. can you explain?

as noted above "OTDs with permanent residency or citizenship in Australia should note they are also required to work in an Area of Need unless they hold full medical registration in Australia or have completed the standard pathway for specialist assessment or the standard pathway for general practitioner assessment".

interns don't hold full registration, so how do they get out of this? i am not arguing. i was under the impression you could intern wherever, and have noticed you posting of getting several internship offers including in capital cities. but it doesnt agree with the area of need statement above.

also, you didnt comment on my questions about how you could get the 10years down to 1, or about the fact that all the info i have found states you have to already hold fellowship to the gen practice college to get any exemptions from the 10 years. could you do that please? would be very appreciated. are you planning to do gen practice? do you know of anyway to get exemptions for those wanting do physician or surgery training?

your comments would be greatly appreciated.

cheers

OTD - overseas trained doctors; doesn't apply to us. We are international students, and as far as our training is considered the only hinderance we have is 1) 10 year moratorium and 2) our PR/citizenship status.

I've already posted numerous times how to get your 10 years down to 1; in numerous threads. But in case you want me to rehash this is what I have found. When I did an elective in the NT I noticed that many OTDs who were doing general practice were getting their moratorium reduced to 2 or 3 years, and when I did research and enquired I found out that in certain areas of shortage the Registration body had the power to grant provider numbers quickly. In areas outside capital cities or areas where the shortage isn't as bad, this can be shorted to about 5 years.

I think the problem is that you are looking at websites that give rules on a general level, but when you got out into the areas where they are desperate for doctors, they are desperate to do anything to get them to stay there, which is a very good thing for us, and rules like what you quoted can be broken. The other factor is that you are looking up rules for OTDs, which we are not. We are under a different classification, since we will not have to write any equivalency exams.

I have no way to get exemptions for Physicans or Surgeons; that doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm interested in General practice, and that's why I've found out this information.
 
OTD - overseas trained doctors; doesn't apply to us. We are international students, and as far as our training is considered the only hinderance we have is 1) 10 year moratorium and 2) our PR/citizenship status.

I've already posted numerous times how to get your 10 years down to 1; in numerous threads. But in case you want me to rehash this is what I have found. When I did an elective in the NT I noticed that many OTDs who were doing general practice were getting their moratorium reduced to 2 or 3 years, and when I did research and enquired I found out that in certain areas of shortage the Registration body had the power to grant provider numbers quickly. In areas outside capital cities or areas where the shortage isn't as bad, this can be shorted to about 5 years.

I think the problem is that you are looking at websites that give rules on a general level, but when you got out into the areas where they are desperate for doctors, they are desperate to do anything to get them to stay there, which is a very good thing for us, and rules like what you quoted can be broken. The other factor is that you are looking up rules for OTDs, which we are not. We are under a different classification, since we will not have to write any equivalency exams.

I have no way to get exemptions for Physicans or Surgeons; that doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm interested in General practice, and that's why I've found out this information.

I am not trying to sound argumentative redshift, but every document i found regarding OTD's and the 10 yr moratorium specifically stated that the term overseas trained doctors does in-fact include former international students. Are you certain that OTD does not refer to former international students with regard to the the requirement to work in an area of need?

further, i have read your posts regarding how to reduce the 10 yrs. in fact i posted above about the 5 year scheme and how it even can be reduced to as little as 12 months depending what locale. i also noted that they require fellowship to the gen prac college, and from your posts, it sounded like you had ideas of doing this before or during gen prac training, which to me seems impossible. i was looking for you to comment on the fellowship requirement. so you are planning to underake gen prac fellowship, do a few years in a remote locale and be done?

thanks for your comments
 
I am not trying to sound argumentative redshift, but every document i found regarding OTD's and the 10 yr moratorium specifically stated that the term overseas trained doctors does in-fact include former international students. Are you certain that OTD does not refer to former international students with regard to the the requirement to work in an area of need?

further, i have read your posts regarding how to reduce the 10 yrs. in fact i posted above about the 5 year scheme and how it even can be reduced to as little as 12 months depending what locale. i also noted that they require fellowship to the gen prac college, and from your posts, it sounded like you had ideas of doing this before or during gen prac training, which to me seems impossible. i was looking for you to comment on the fellowship requirement. so you are planning to underake gen prac fellowship, do a few years in a remote locale and be done?

thanks for your comments

This is what I've managed to gather from others who have done this before me as well as the immigration department, as well as some areas of rural work force shortage:

1) You do not require fellowship with the FRACGPs to apply to train in areas of need

2) Your time starts as soon as you get your PR, and for most that is the year after they do internship.

3) The more rural the area (ie Zone 7) the shorter the time they can offer you.

4) Yes I'm 100% sure that we are not considered OTDs, we're considered international medical students; for what it's worth there are no consistent rules here in Oz, so if the bulk of your research is by checking out websites you might try and call the ministry as well just to double check your information. I'd suggest also calling rural areas trying to recruit GPs, and you can advise them about your situation, they should be able to give you more uptodate information. *note however this 10 year rule applies to both OTDs and us* OTDs = overseas trained doctors. We are NOT OTDs. We do not have to write the AMC exams.

Ideally this is what I've seen done. An international medical student applies for their PR after completing internship and then applies to do General practice. Some programs require you to complete 1 year as an RMO, but some really desperate rural areas will let you enter straight after Internship, but then make you do an extra year of "training". Typically you can choose where you do your general practice training as there are usually lots of spots. If you apply to areas of desperate work force shortage and do your training there, certain state governments have the power to give you a provider number for certain lengths of training; this is variable from State to to State and you'd be best off either contacting someone who has already done it or trying to find out from the State government themselves how short a time frame they can reduce your moratorium too.

There are no websites that I've found that outline these plans; and to be honest it's pretty bewildering the various laws/regulations out there. However I did my elective in an area where I've observed this first hand and so I know it's 100% possible.
 
This is what I've managed to gather from others who have done this before me as well as the immigration department, as well as some areas of rural work force shortage:

1) You do not require fellowship with the FRACGPs to apply to train in areas of need

2) Your time starts as soon as you get your PR, and for most that is the year after they do internship.

3) The more rural the area (ie Zone 7) the shorter the time they can offer you.

4) Yes I'm 100% sure that we are not considered OTDs, we're considered international medical students; for what it's worth there are no consistent rules here in Oz, so if the bulk of your research is by checking out websites you might try and call the ministry as well just to double check your information. I'd suggest also calling rural areas trying to recruit GPs, and you can advise them about your situation, they should be able to give you more uptodate information.

Ideally this is what I've seen done. An international medical student applies for their PR after completing internship and then applies to do General practice. Some programs require you to complete 1 year as an RMO, but some really desperate rural areas will let you enter straight after Internship, but then make you do an extra year of "training". Typically you can choose where you do your general practice training as there are usually lots of spots. If you apply to areas of desperate work force shortage and do your training there, certain state governments have the power to give you a provider number for certain lengths of training; this is variable from State to to State and you'd be best of either contacting someone who has already done it or trying to find out from the Stage government themselves how short a time frame they can reduce your moratorium too.

There are no websites that I've found that outline these plans; and to be honest it's pretty bewildering the various laws/regulations out there. However I did my elective in an area where I've observed this first hand and so I know it's 100% possible.

Here is a good place to start:

http://www.doctorconnect.gov.au/internet/otd/publishing.nsf/Content/employ-AON-approval
 

5 Year Overseas Trained Doctor Scheme

Area of Need | District of Workforce Shortage | Changing jobs | 5 Year Overseas Trained Doctor Scheme | Categories of general practitioners

Related Links

* Medicare Provider Numbers
* Rural Workforce Agencies

The 5 Year Overseas Trained Doctor Scheme (5 Year OTD Scheme) was developed to address long term rural medical workforce shortages. The name of this scheme may vary across the States and Territories (such as the ‘Doctors for the Bush' scheme).

This scheme allows experienced and/or qualified overseas trained general practitioners (GPs/family physicians), who seek or possess permanent residency in Australia, to be assessed by the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners (RACGP) as an alternative to undertaking Australian Medical Council (AMC) examinations.

The College sorts doctors into one of 5 categories, based on postgraduate GP qualifications and experience. GPs are mainly recruited from categories 1, 2 or 3 and, in special circumstances, category 4. These categories are more fully explained in Categories of general practitioners.

The Australian Government has also streamlined immigration processes and Medicare access to assist in filling these positions.

Doctors joining the Scheme are conditionally registered to work in rural areas for a period of 5 years. A doctor on this scheme needs to:

* Complete 5 years service in general practice in an agreed rural location (in some very remote locations, the requirement may be as little as 3 years);
* Obtain Fellowship of the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners (assistance is available to prepare for the exams); and
* Obtain permanent residency in Australia;
* Meet all requirements of the State or Northern Territory scheme.

Once the 4 conditions listed above have been met, the Australian Government will waive the balance of time on any Medicare provider number restrictions, which means that you will be free to practise as a GP anywhere in Australia.

For more information, contact the relevant State or Territory Rural Workforce Agency.

*As said, I've seen this reduced to as little as 1 year.*
*Note you do not actually have to be registered with the FRACGP* You can include your training as part of this scheme (as I've seen it done).
 
5 Year Overseas Trained Doctor Scheme

Area of Need | District of Workforce Shortage | Changing jobs | 5 Year Overseas Trained Doctor Scheme | Categories of general practitioners

Related Links

* Medicare Provider Numbers
* Rural Workforce Agencies

The 5 Year Overseas Trained Doctor Scheme (5 Year OTD Scheme) was developed to address long term rural medical workforce shortages. The name of this scheme may vary across the States and Territories (such as the ‘Doctors for the Bush’ scheme).

This scheme allows experienced and/or qualified overseas trained general practitioners (GPs/family physicians), who seek or possess permanent residency in Australia, to be assessed by the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners (RACGP) as an alternative to undertaking Australian Medical Council (AMC) examinations.

The College sorts doctors into one of 5 categories, based on postgraduate GP qualifications and experience. GPs are mainly recruited from categories 1, 2 or 3 and, in special circumstances, category 4. These categories are more fully explained in Categories of general practitioners.

The Australian Government has also streamlined immigration processes and Medicare access to assist in filling these positions.

Doctors joining the Scheme are conditionally registered to work in rural areas for a period of 5 years. A doctor on this scheme needs to:

* Complete 5 years service in general practice in an agreed rural location (in some very remote locations, the requirement may be as little as 3 years);
* Obtain Fellowship of the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners (assistance is available to prepare for the exams); and
* Obtain permanent residency in Australia;
* Meet all requirements of the State or Northern Territory scheme.

Once the 4 conditions listed above have been met, the Australian Government will waive the balance of time on any Medicare provider number restrictions, which means that you will be free to practise as a GP anywhere in Australia.

For more information, contact the relevant State or Territory Rural Workforce Agency.

*As said, I've seen this reduced to as little as 1 year.*
*Note you do not actually have to be registered with the FRACGP* You can include your training as part of this scheme (as I've seen it done).

dude, if you'd read my posts you'd have realized i have read ALL that already. what you did not include is that doctors with NO postgrad qualifications are considered category 5, which generally are inelligible for the 5 year scheme.
 
dude, if you'd read my posts you'd have realized i have read ALL that already. what you did not include is that doctors with NO postgrad qualifications are considered category 5, which generally are inelligible for the 5 year scheme.

Again this may be area specific, as I've actually seen plenty who have no post grad qualifications and were eligible for the 5 year scheme...are you even in Australia or are you just arm chairing all of this?
 
Again this may be area specific, as I've actually seen plenty who have no post grad qualifications and were eligible for the 5 year scheme...are you even in Australia or are you just arm chairing all of this?

yes, i am arm chairing. i have wanted very much for a long time to go to australia for med school for the chance of staying. so ive been doing as much research as possible (for like the last 5 or so years). the whole 10 year moratorium doesnt seem too horrible considering the length of training required. however i think the new graduate tsunami has pretty much assured that i wont be able to stay seeing how i havent started med school yet and the tsunami is supposed to start 2009. the fact that docs dont make as much there also sincerely concerns me as to how i'd pay off all the student loans. i think now i'll simply have to pass on my dream. its really not worth it to go there only return as an IMG.

and if you are questioning: yes, i have been to australia. i lived in adelaide 6 months, and though everyone talks **** about adelaide i kinda liked it. but i definitely liked melbourne more. too expensive though. also visited sydney and cairns but never made it to brisbane or perth, though all the locals i met did say they were both great places.
 
yes, i am arm chairing. i have wanted very much for a long time to go to australia for med school for the chance of staying. so ive been doing as much research as possible (for like the last 5 or so years). the whole 10 year moratorium doesnt seem too horrible considering the length of training required. however i think the new graduate tsunami has pretty much assured that i wont be able to stay seeing how i havent started med school yet and the tsunami is supposed to start 2009. the fact that docs dont make as much there also sincerely concerns me as to how i'd pay off all the student loans. i think now i'll simply have to pass on my dream. its really not worth it to go there only return as an IMG.

and if you are questioning: yes, i have been to australia. i lived in adelaide 6 months, and though everyone talks **** about adelaide i kinda liked it. but i definitely liked melbourne more. too expensive though. also visited sydney and cairns but never made it to brisbane or perth, though all the locals i met did say they were both great places.

Id say Melbourne is my favourite place here as well, though Adelaide is not bad either.

As for salary I guess it depends on what you are looking at. The average GP salary here in Tasmania is around $250 000 - Most work 2-3 days a week, so I don't know how that stacks up against US gps, but it sure beats Canadian ones (especially the ones I've worked with). Lifestyle here for GPs is excellent; though the real money is in running your own practise which of course the 10 year moratorium will stuff up. Considering that GP training is done in 4 years (including 1 year internship) that still leaves 6 years of the moratorium which would prevent you from running a practise in all but the work force shortage areas...which is my motivation to get rid of it as soon as possible.

As I said you won't find much useful information on websites, your best bet is to call some of the RMRA (Zone) 7 areas, tell them that you are a graduate from an Australian school and want to do GP training - is there anyway they could give you a deal to shorten your moratorium to 1,2,3 years? You might have better luck that way - I know it's possible so keep digging until you find someone who can help you.

As for the flood - that might be an issue but not if you play your cards right. I got first round offers this year to places where I did my elective -so essentially they put me on a level playing field with Australian graduates. I think here rules are very flexible and knowing people goes a long way. If you don't mind giving up your summer holidays to do extra electives in places where you know you can make connections (especially places where people are less likely to apply) you can pretty much guarantee yourself an internship/job. GP training will always be easy to get into even if there is a flood, anything beyond that isn't guaranteed.

For what it's worth if you go to a big city like Adelaide or Melbourne you will have even less chance at getting into a competitive program as everyone will want to do their training there. From what I've heard (told by the head of Medical recruiting who's a Physician) they have never turned down a candidate before for physician training, both general and advanced (here in Hobart). You get into physician training right after internship, after 24-36 months you can take your BPT exams and that's the only set of exams you take; no exit exams. After that you apply for an advanced training position (ie a fellowship in the US) and that's 3 years for a speciality (ie cardio, respiratory etc) or 4 years if you want dual qualifications (ie Cardio + General med). She said no one has ever been turned down for a job here...but I have no idea what it's like on the mainland, I'm assuming it's more competitive. Pay + bonuses probably mean you're making 300, 000 - 400, 000 + even working purely publicly (which apparently she does) so your moratorium won't matter at that stage, but if you do manage to get some private work in you could easily add another 200,000 to your income. This seems to be to be in line with Internal medicine + fellowship in the US (6 years).

So if it's money that you're concerned about it's probably not a huge issue. Even as an RMO in Adelaide friends of mine have told me that they were making an average of about $100 000 while interns there (with overtime) can make $70 000 - $80 000.
 
This is rascist policy and was setup just after Australia ended its white Australia Policy which meant only white people could migrate to Australia.

It means that if you study in Australia and become a citizen during your medical course, or study outside of Australia and become a citizen, you are banned from chosing where to work for 10 years from the date you become a citizent. You have to work in areas of "workforce shortage" for 10years at the Health Ministers discretion.

What this means is that if two types of citizens apply for the same job, the one who is not born in Australia will be discriminated against on the basis of ethnic origins.

My partner did his medical studies in Australia and was horrified when found out about this. He has worked in medical work force units where many doctors decided not work in country areas and become a General Practioner.

All hospitals are classed as areas of medical workforce shortage so people decide to become a consultant in another field, allowing them more choice as where to work.

I encourage you to write and let the Rural Doctors Association know that you think this is stupid to discriminate against Australian Citizens who are not born in Australia, and medicine should be about ability, not where you are born. There address is: http://www.rdaa.com.au/default.cfm?action=nationaloffice

The Federal Health Minister that can change the legislation is Nicola Roxan and her email address is: [email protected]

If more potential doctors tell these people the discrimination is wrong then they will change, but it needs more then my lonely voice.

I hope this helps.

David
 
this is not racism. do you know what racism is? this is discrimination, but not on the basis of race. "ethnic origins"? you do realize that virtually everyone in Australia (save the Aborigines) is not ethincally Australian, right? most are of European descent. and there are tons of non-white docs that migrate to aus. they are subject to the moratorium just as the whites.

and discrimination is everywhere. convicted murderers don't get into med school even if they are qualified. i'm in the US and most overseas docs will have to work in rural or "underserved" areas here too.

and while it may be largely frustrating, it is rational. many docs want to move to Aus. however, most dont want to move to rural Aus. but that is exactly where docs are needed. the urban areas that everyone wants to move to already have more than their fair share of docs. there is no way they could force their own natural born citizens to work out in the bush. they can however make docs who come to aus do it, and they should to prevent them from adding to the geographical disparities of health care.

write to the rural doctors association? the 10 year moratorium says you have to work in rural areas, not that you cannot work there. the rural doctors association want more docs working in rural areas and thus would have no complaints about the moratorium.

and i disagree, medicine should not be entirely on ability. it should be more about need, and those rural areas desperately need medical practioners.

Also David, all the Aus medical schools state that there is no guarantee of staying after medical training. If one were interested in staying, they should research the path to do such before pursuing training. in doing so, one would discover they would be subject to the moratorium. should that not jive with that person's plans, they shouldnt go to medical school in Aus.

Racism is a very strong accusation and i wouldnt be throwing it around so haphazardly.
 
This is rascism. The discrimination is against citizens of Australia who are of a different ethnic origin. It makes a distinction against you if you are born overseas, and as a result limits your ability to work in an area you choose. even though you are a citizen. This has stopped many doctors wanting to work in Australia, and even led to doctors who do all there study in Australia to going overseas and not being part of this system.

Why should a citizen get discriminated against because they were born outside of Australia?

The Rural Doctors Association who is supporting this discrimination as they are not creative enough to think of other solutions such as limitting the Meidcare Provider numbers in the city, resulting in an overs supply of doctors who would be able to find work in the areas of workforce shortage.

In addittion to that the Rural Doctors Asscocaiton supported the previous Australian Government that cut doctors training by 20%. They only recently increased it. In effect the Associatoin shot itself in the foot by giving a lot of support to the previous government.

I would encourage you all to let the Rural Doctors Association know that while this legislation is supported by them, then many doctors will not come to Australia. They believe the legislation has not stopped one doctor from comming to Australia.
 
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