touchpause13

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It's only November this isn't the end of the line. But if you have an acceptance and turn it down to reapply I think that's a douche move.
 

ynot89125

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depends if you care about MD or DO. Personally I would reapply because becoming a DO to me is having a chip on your shoulder your whole career. US DO is recognized internationally less than US MD. looking at just stats its hard to believe you didn't get an acceptance at a MD school unless you applied to very very selective schools only... is that what happened?
 
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pietachok

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US DO is rarely recognized internationally.
Fabricating answers doesn't help anybody.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/development/international-osteopathic-medicine/Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx

looking at just stats its hard to believe you didn't get an acceptance at a MD school unless you applied to very very selective schools only... is that what happened?
International applicants have a very tough time securing admission to medical school. Their admissions rate is ~1/3 that of US applicants, and they have a limited number of schools who will even consider their application. Then consider that most of the data lumps Canadians in as "international", and the picture is even more grim for non-Canadian foreign applicants.
 
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La Presse

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DrEnderW

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US DO is rarely recognized internationally.
As others have said, don't provide information that is inaccurate. If you don't know the numbers just don't say anything. Providing incorrect information isn't helping anyone.

More countries are being added every year and whether or not you're an MD or a DO, there can be hoops to jump through to practice internationally. US MDs do not have carte blanche abroad either.
 
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circulus vitios

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If you're smart enough to get a 3.9 and a 40+, I'm guessing you have the potential, academically speaking, to overcome the DO handicap and match into competitive specialties that would otherwise be off the table for most DO applicants e.g. radiation oncology, ENT, dermatology, etc.

Of course I have no idea how international status would play into this, or if you would face the same potential problems coming into the match with an MD after your name.
 

pietachok

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OP, you have many months before this cycle is over. Proceed as if you will not enroll -- keep doing activities etc. to strengthen your application under the assumption you will apply again. However, take the next several months to think about the answer to your question and gain more information. It may turn out that you get pulled off an MD waitlist and this becomes a moot point. There is no reason you have to make this decision *now* as opposed to in a few months.

In the meantime, I would gather opinions from other foreign students in DO programs. I would review whether the DO route would impair your ability to practice in the country you hope to live in.

Of course I have no idea how international status would play into this, or if you would face the same potential problems coming into the match with an MD after your name.
I would specifically seek out information about any increased difficulty in obtaining residency as a foreign citizen in osteopathic *and* allopathic residencies -- it is an obstacle for sure in ACGME residencies -- indeed, one of the reasons many schools will not accept foreign applicants, is their difficulty successfully matching if they have their heart set on competitive specialties. Depending on what field you are hoping to pursue, I think you might find DO/MD could make a difference. I'm only hypothesizing here, but I could see being a DO going either in or against your favor depending on your future field -- i.e. if you think you'll want a competitive specialty where DO is already at a disadvantage, maybe being foreign + DO is too much; on the other hand if it is a field in which there are many osteo residencies, maybe it is an advantage to be able to apply to those.
 
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DOAZ31

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depends if you care about MD or DO. Personally I would reapply because becoming a DO to me is having a chip on your shoulder your whole career. Plus if you are looking to practice somewhere not in the US at any point in your career an US MD will get you far. US DO is rarely recognized internationally. looking at just stats its hard to believe you didn't get an acceptance at a MD school unless you applied to very very selective schools only... is that what happened?

Sounds like a lot of wisdom coming from a pre-med. Maybe you should do some research and leave your bias at home. "Chip on your shoulder?" are you implying that all D.O's are not smart enough to be good enough doctors like M.D's? or that we secretly all of our training wish we were M.D's? Because I can assure you that is not the case.
 
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ynot89125

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Sounds like a lot of wisdom coming from a pre-med. Maybe you should do some research and leave your bias at home. "Chip on your shoulder?" are you implying that all D.O's are not smart enough to be good enough doctors like M.D's? or that we secretly all of our training wish we were M.D's? Because I can assure you that is not the case.
Do you know what a chip on your shoulder means? I'm implying that you will be (wrongly) judged at every job interview, every conference, etc. I don't agree but its the truth that the perception of DO being less than MD is out there and very prevalent so why would you want to volunteer and go to a DO school when the OP clearly has the potential "stat wise" to go to a MD school. Unless of course he/she genuinely wants to be trained in osteopathic medicine but obviously that is not the case because the OP is asking what he should chose.
 

iceman55

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Do you know what a chip on your shoulder means? I'm implying that you will be (wrongly) judged at every job interview, every conference, etc. I don't agree but its the truth that the perception of DO being less than MD is out there and very prevalent so why would you want to volunteer and go to a DO school when the OP clearly has the potential "stat wise" to go to a MD school. Unless of course he/she genuinely wants to be trained in osteopathic medicine but obviously that is not the case because the OP is asking what he should chose.
I don't know why you guys are flaming him for simply telling the OP that he/she may face some disadvantages and negative perceptions from some people for having gone DO. You know it's true...same goes for the Carribean schools
 

touchpause13

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I don't know why you guys are flaming him for simply telling the OP that he/she may face some disadvantages and negative perceptions from some people for having gone DO. You know it's true...same goes for the Carribean schools

Srsly......
 
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ynot89125

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As others have said, don't provide information that is inaccurate. If you don't know the numbers just don't say anything. Providing incorrect information isn't helping anyone.

More countries are being added every year and whether or not you're an MD or a DO, there can be hoops to jump through to practice internationally. US MDs do not have carte blanche abroad either.
apologies for that. I was told this by a practicing physician and several other people. I didn't look up the facts myself so the blame is on me. Still I would argue after more research that DO have to jump through more hoops and are more restricted internationally than MD. Again the OP said he wants to practice in US so this is all a moot point. Residency placement for MD vs DO I have no idea. Again I would argue that the fact that most DO programs are less rigorous to get into than MD programs gives off a false but ACTIVE implication that DO are less qualified than MDs. The stigma is false but nonetheless there.

Regardless of how difficult it is for international applicants to get in, with the OPs stats unless there is a red flag somewhere or a serious deficiency the OP should have no problem attending a MD school. Work on those deficiencies and the OP should be able to get in a high caliber MD school.
 

streampaw

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Reapply MD, if you don't think that DO fits your outlook. They have a special holistic approach to medicine, and to be honest, it's probably harder to gain competitive specialty matches if you do DO. If you really love the osteopathic outlook, then do DO. If you prefer the traditional path, reapply MD, and reapply broadly. I'm thinking at least 30 schools, if not more.
 
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487806

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I'm international, 3.9+, 40+. I got wait listed at a couple of MD schools and got into a DO school. I don't have any more interview invites, Would you guys recommend I reapply MD next year or go to DO school.
Seems like you're not telling us the whole story. Yes, the international status will hold you back, but there's something amiss if that's the only thing causing your lack of success.
 

notbobtrustme

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I applied to a broad range of schools. I plan on staying in US for my career so recognition is not really the issue. The issue is really whether the DO degree will limit what specialties I can match into even if I score high on boards.
maybe, but if you aren't a US citizen or permanent resident come match time, that will hurt you even more.

In your case, I'd take the DO acceptance and run. How are you intending to finance your education since you would be ineligible for federal loans?
 
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circulus vitios

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Reapply MD, if you don't think that DO fits your outlook. They have a special holistic approach to medicine, and to be honest, it's probably harder to gain competitive specialty matches if you do DO. If you really love the osteopathic outlook, then do DO. If you prefer the traditional path, reapply MD, and reapply broadly. I'm thinking at least 30 schools, if not more.
Why do you feel qualified to puke out posts like these?
 

pietachok

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It's the most intelligible thing he has posted since he's been here. plus, it's kinda true.
It shows very little insight into how difficult it is to gain acceptance as an international applicant, as does the post suggesting that the OP has left out part of the story. The reality is that it is very very hard to get into US medical schools as an international applicant. less than 20 percent of applicants from out of the country get accepted, and many of those are Canadians who are accepted at a much higher rate than foreigners from most other countries. The data is grim.
 

La Presse

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It shows very little insight into how difficult it is to gain acceptance as an international applicant, as does the post suggesting that the OP has left out part of the story. The reality is that it is very very hard to get into US medical schools is an international applicant. less than 20 percent of applicants from out of the country get accepted, and many of those are Canadians who are accepted at a much higher rate than foreigners from most other countries.
Now that you mention it, are you Canadian? And which schools did you apply to?
 

DOAZ31

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apologies for that. I was told this by a practicing physician and several other people. I didn't look up the facts myself so the blame is on me. Still I would argue after more research that DO have to jump through more hoops and are more restricted internationally than MD. Again the OP said he wants to practice in US so this is all a moot point. Residency placement for MD vs DO I have no idea. Again I would argue that the fact that most DO programs are less rigorous to get into than MD programs gives off a false but ACTIVE implication that DO are less qualified than MDs. The stigma is false but nonetheless there.

Regardless of how difficult it is for international applicants to get in, with the OPs stats unless there is a red flag somewhere or a serious deficiency the OP should have no problem attending a MD school. Work on those deficiencies and the OP should be able to get in a high caliber MD school.

Oh I guess you're right..... since you are a pre-med and you have been in the medical field for so long, please continue to elaborate more on how much you don't really know. Do yourself a favor, go to med school, get into residency, and then come back and tell me how much the DO stigma is out there and how much less DOs are qualified to see patients,
 
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As others have said, don't provide information that is inaccurate. If you don't know the numbers just don't say anything. Providing incorrect information isn't helping anyone.
More countries are being added every year and whether or not you're an MD or a DO, there can be hoops to jump through to practice internationally. US MDs do not have carte blanche abroad either.
Don't say anything rather than say something incorrect.
 
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Anicetus

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This quickly escalated into MD vs DO.


OP, if the idea of OMM makes you cringe, don't go to DO. Just reapply.
 

darkjedi

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Is there a red flag in your application? Even as an international, you should still be getting some love with those stats.
 

ynot89125

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Oh I guess you're right..... since you are a pre-med and you have been in the medical field for so long, please continue to elaborate more on how much you don't really know. Do yourself a favor, go to med school, get into residency, and then come back and tell me how much the DO stigma is out there and how much less DOs are qualified to see patients,
instead of just disqualifying what I have to say and attacking me personally you should offer some counter points if you are in a DO school. You honestly don't believe there is a DO stigma? Also I never said DOs are less qualified to see patients where did you get this from?

Also so only people who have been to medical school and completed a residency can comment about DO stigma? If so they you have no right to comment either because you only just started at your DO school. You have no more than a semester of medical school under your belt and therefore according to your argument you have no say in DO stigma either.
 
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487806

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Is there a red flag in your application? Even as an international, you should still be getting some love with those stats.
Knew it. Yet some other med student thinks my response is inadequate lol. Of course.
 

487806

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It shows very little insight into how difficult it is to gain acceptance as an international applicant, as does the post suggesting that the OP has left out part of the story. The reality is that it is very very hard to get into US medical schools as an international applicant. less than 20 percent of applicants from out of the country get accepted, and many of those are Canadians who are accepted at a much higher rate than foreigners from most other countries. The data is grim.

Yeah because a 3.9+/40+ is commonly achieved by international applicants. You're kidding yourself if being international is the only thing holding OP back. There are other internationals woth similar/lower stats than OP and still got in. There's something OP isn't telling us here
 

DrEnderW

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instead of just disqualifying what I have to say and attacking me personally you should offer some counter points if you are in a DO school. You honestly don't believe there is a DO stigma? Also I never said DOs are less qualified to see patients where did you get this from?

Also so only people who have been to medical school and completed a residency can comment about DO stigma? If so they you have no right to comment either because you only just started at your DO school. You have no more than a semester of medical school under your belt and therefore according to your argument you have no say in DO stigma either.

Don't worry, this is the time of year newly accepted DO students kid themselves about there not being stigma and get overly defensive.

It's an absolute certainty that there is negative bias by ACGME program directors against DO students in a lot of specialties and at certain programs. You don't need to be a medical student to figure that out.
 

DOAZ31

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Don't worry, this is the time of year newly accepted DO students kid themselves about there not being stigma and get overly defensive.

It's an absolute certainty that there is negative bias by ACGME program directors against DO students in a lot of specialties and at certain programs. You don't need to be a medical student to figure that out.
overly defensive? I think not. To say that D.O. doctors are not as qualified, and not as well trained as MD counterparts is a definite misconception. Stigma may it be, but there's a reason there are merger talks and efforts to unify, because maybe 80 years ago it mattered, but as of late, with more and more D.O's filling up slots in ACGME, there is little to differentiate between a D.O. and M.D. And this was more about ynot's sputtering of inaccurate facts that lead to this conversation. Don't talk about what you don't know. Some of us were overseas, pausing our education, taking bullets and earning purple hearts for your freedom, and then coming back recovering and re-teaching ourselves. D.O was our only option because of numbers so be it, but none of us are less qualified then you.
 
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Don't talk about what you don't know. Some of us were overseas, pausing our education, taking bullets and earning purple hearts for your freedom, and then coming back recovering and re-teaching ourselves. D.O was our only option because of numbers so be it, but none of us are less qualified then you.
Woah, calm down and get over yourself. If you want to be a real hero, don't come home expecting to be treated like one. You are giving the rest of men and women in service a bad rep for this kind of attitude. DOAZ31, you are the only person on this thread who has said anything about DO qualification - ynot89125 specifically said that it's a false prejudice - so please stop saying that posters on this thread have slighted DO students.
 

487806

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overly defensive? I think not. To say that D.O. doctors are not as qualified, and not as well trained as MD counterparts is a definite misconception. Stigma may it be, but there's a reason there are merger talks and efforts to unify, because maybe 80 years ago it mattered, but as of late, with more and more D.O's filling up slots in ACGME, there is little to differentiate between a D.O. and M.D. And this was more about ynot's sputtering of inaccurate facts that lead to this conversation. Don't talk about what you don't know. Some of us were overseas, pausing our education, taking bullets and earning purple hearts for your freedom, and then coming back recovering and re-teaching ourselves. D.O was our only option because of numbers so be it, but none of us are less qualified then you.
Woah, calm down and get over yourself. If you want to be a real hero, don't come home expecting to be treated like one. You are giving the rest of men and women in service a bad rep for this kind of attitude. DOAZ31, you are the only person on this thread who has said anything about DO qualification - ynot89125 specifically said that it's a false prejudice - so please stop saying that posters on this thread have slighted DO students.
I think he created an SDN account just to rant about how DOs are being treated inferior and what not.
 

DrEnderW

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overly defensive? I think not. To say that D.O. doctors are not as qualified, and not as well trained as MD counterparts is a definite misconception. Stigma may it be, but there's a reason there are merger talks and efforts to unify, because maybe 80 years ago it mattered, but as of late, with more and more D.O's filling up slots in ACGME, there is little to differentiate between a D.O. and M.D. And this was more about ynot's sputtering of inaccurate facts that lead to this conversation. Don't talk about what you don't know. Some of us were overseas, pausing our education, taking bullets and earning purple hearts for your freedom, and then coming back recovering and re-teaching ourselves. D.O was our only option because of numbers so be it, but none of us are less qualified then you.
We're totally on the same page and I agree that it is a misconception.

I wasn't targeting you specifically, I know you're a current med student from your other posts. I took years off as an athlete, something almost zero med students do, so I understand the pause in education as well (although that is a far from active military service which I strongly respect). I was speaking more to people denying there is stigma from residency directors and pretending the game is on a level playing field once you begin medical school. Whether or not this should exist doesn't take away the fact that it's there and is something to overcome.

Sorry if I offended you. I think we're actually wanting the same thing.
 

DOAZ31

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I think he created an SDN account just to rant about how DOs are being treated inferior and what not.
We're totally on the same page and I agree that it is a misconception.

I wasn't targeting you specifically, I know you're a current med student from your other posts. I took years off as an athlete, something almost zero med students do, so I understand the pause in education as well (although that is a far from active military service which I strongly respect). I was speaking more to people denying there is stigma from residency directors and pretending the game is on a level playing field once you begin medical school. Whether or not this should exist doesn't take away the fact that it's there and is something to overcome.

Sorry if I offended you. I think we're actually wanting the same thing.

No offense taken, I don't think that a pre-med has any justification to his/her posts. and As for Agent B, read the rest of the convo
 

ynot89125

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No offense taken, I don't think that a pre-med has any justification to his/her posts. and As for Agent B, read the rest of the convo
oh man it just keeps going and going huh? Now you want to pull rank over me because you are a MS1? I will say this AGAIN. DO stigma is there deal with it. HOWEVER US DOs have just as good a medical education and are as well trained as US MDs. How many more times do I have to repeat myself?
 

ynot89125

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overly defensive? I think not. To say that D.O. doctors are not as qualified, and not as well trained as MD counterparts is a definite misconception. Stigma may it be, but there's a reason there are merger talks and efforts to unify, because maybe 80 years ago it mattered, but as of late, with more and more D.O's filling up slots in ACGME, there is little to differentiate between a D.O. and M.D. And this was more about ynot's sputtering of inaccurate facts that lead to this conversation. Don't talk about what you don't know. Some of us were overseas, pausing our education, taking bullets and earning purple hearts for your freedom, and then coming back recovering and re-teaching ourselves. D.O was our only option because of numbers so be it, but none of us are less qualified then you.
I apologized and corrected myself. I was going off of false information from peers and physicians. You are correct US DO degrees are being accepted internationally more and more. around 65 countries to be exact but that still is not as many countries as US MD. That is a FACT so just accept it. Again just in case you get offended again, US DO is not in ANYWAY inferior to US MD in medical education.
 
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