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scrublyfe21 said:
I am having a huge internal debate regarding where I should go with my dreams in medicine and was wondering if anybody would give me some constructive input as to what you would do in my situation;

Numbers-wise I am a middle-of-the-road candidate for an osteopathic school, with a 3.4 cGPA and 3.7 sGPA, and 34 MCAT, possibly higher GPA if I ace my classes during my final semester. I have posted a couple threads before regarding my situation, but the TL;DR version is I was a poor student going into college, was nearly kicked out first semester freshman year with a 2.3 GPA. However I pulled it together, explored various fields, and snowballed my way through biology and neuroscience. I'm involved in sociology research for the past 4 years, which I presented at a conference, and will be co-author on a book regarding this work (book, NOT journal article), have numerous positions as a leader in my fraternity including organizing volunteer tutoring and a ton of other events as president, and have worked as an ER scribe for the past 8 months, with no end in site unless I get into a school. I am essentially as non-traditional of an applicant as it gets, as the first member of my family to attend college, and would have a 3.6 cGPA and 3.8 sGPA if you ignore my freshman year grades.

EDIT: I am graduating in 5 years due to my late interest in medicine.

Where I am at a crossroads is that I have recently become introduced to Naturopathic Medicine, and have an interview coming up at the top Naturopathic school in the country. When I say Naturopathic, I don't mean curing every single with homeopathy, using bull**** stones for spiritual healing, and anti-vaccination/ antibiotics Naturopathy. I'm talking about studying to administer the least harmful treatment to help my patients that can still achieve the desired effect. If I go into Naturopathic medicine I want to focus on preventative care in practice, and pursue research into naturally-based and derived remedies to justify and further the field, in order to work alongside traditional medicine. This is because I've seen so many cases where the ultra-concentrated and powerful modern pharmaceuticals do more harm than good for some patients ( narcotics for chronic pain and anti-anxiety meds being perfect examples). However I realize the push-back and challenges I would experience as a Naturopathic Physician (I plan on practicing where they are recognized).

Anybody with experience in a similar situation, would it be feasible for me to pursue a DO school or should I give up on my dream based off of previous feedback with my questions ( the unanimous decision here is that I have no hope to get into med school based off of my near-expulsion freshman year, despite my comeback as a successful student in every aspect), and just pursue the Naturopathic option, suck up the fact that I f&%^ed up my chances, and do my best in an alternative field?

I'm not necessarily looking for someone to tell me "don't worry dude, there is always a chance if you set your mind to it", I'm looking for different perspectives as to the possible pros and cons of taking an acceptance at the ND school vs risking applying DO this cycle and risking not getting in.
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Leave the ND alone for awhile. I think you have a fair chance of getting into a MD school and you will almost certainly get a DO acceptance. Buy the MSAR and apply accordingly.
 
Search "ND vs DO". You're not going to find much support for NDs on here. If that's what you want to do, go do it.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
Anybody with experience in a similar situation, would it be feasible for me to pursue a DO school or should I give up on my dream based off of previous feedback with my questions ( the unanimous decision here is that I have no hope to get into med school based off of my near-expulsion freshman year, despite my comeback as a successful student in every aspect), and just pursue the Naturopathic option, suck up the fact that I f&%^ed up my chances, and do my best in an alternative field?

I'm not necessarily looking for someone to tell me "don't worry dude, there is always a chance if you set your mind to it", I'm looking for different perspectives as to the possible pros and cons of taking an acceptance at the ND school vs risking applying DO this cycle and risking not getting in.
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Dude, forget the naysayer go ND bull****. I'm giving you a virtual face slap to wake you up. Apply DO, you don't have to Rx narcotics, that's at your discretion, etc. No one is going to care that you "almost failed out". So did half the practicing doctors out there. Get your head on straight, apply to a real medical school and practice how you want. There is no crossroads. There is no argument. Whoever is advising you otherwise is an idiot. I have met one ND in my travels and I wanted to push her into the shower and make her wash her hair. Your numbers are way higher than mine were when I went to DO school.
 
I agree with the above. Apply to DO schools, learn OMM really well and try to use that as a substitute for Rx.
 
Do well in the rest of your classes. Apply to MD and DO as soon as cycle opens. Prepare adequately for your interviews. You'll be fine. And forget this ND nonsense
 
Your stats are above mine and I also was on an academic probation freshman year. I received several interviews at DO schools and was accepted to the first two schools I interviewed at. Because I'm currently in a PhD program (only a second year so I won't receive any degree from it) and my PI doesn't know yet I decided to stop interviewing after getting into two schools I could see myself at since it was getting difficult to schedule around being in lab and school. So go for the DO! You definitely have a good shot. Unless the ND is where your heart is calling you. Gotta follow your heart.
 
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scrublyfe21 said:
I'd prefer not to discuss which specific school, but I'll just say the GPA requirements for this program are similar to DO matriculant stats. As for the probation, it was not academic probation. It was disciplinary probation for alcohol and marijuana use freshman year. Some of the most respected members on here told me repeatedly I stand no chance of getting into any US medical program, saying that the repeated offenses and short amount of time (4 years) says I exhibit "repeated occasions of poor judgment".
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I remember some of your posts. Were you considering ND prior as well?

If not, you may very much regret taking that acceptance when you come to realize that you do not want to do that down the road.
 
You could walk into almost any DO program and several MD programs if you wanted to.

I'm going to assume you're strongly considering this. You can practice medicine however you like. That whole "first do no harm thing" is a theme that will never go away. A lot of medicine has inherent risks and benefits. You're going to medical school to learn a lot about what is appropriate and inappropriate care for your patients.

I've seen bad outcomes as a phlebotomist, a nurse, and a medical student. You're going to find out how to make good outcomes happen based on evidence, science, experience, etc. You'll do your best and hopefully find it fulfilling. At least, that is how I see it.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
I'd prefer not to discuss which specific school, but I'll just say the GPA requirements for this program are similar to DO matriculant stats. As for the probation, it was not academic probation. It was disciplinary probation for alcohol and marijuana use freshman year. Some of the most respected members on here told me repeatedly I stand no chance of getting into any US medical program, saying that the repeated offenses and short amount of time (4 years) says I exhibit "repeated occasions of poor judgment".
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I have done a cursory review of naturopathy since reading your post.
I cannot recommend this course unless you have at least applied once or twice to DO or MD programs with no success.
Admittedly, it may take a period of time before you can show that you are worth the perceived risk associated with your IA's.
If you start (or finish!) one of these naturopathy programs, it will have a chilling effect on any future in medicine. Be very sure that this is your chosen path before you enroll.
 
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scrublyfe21 said:
I was not necessarily considering it a few months back when I was first asking about the risks of my disciplinary issues, I only started looking into it after the harsh feedback from some of the non-student members on here. I was pointed towards naturopathic schools by one of the ER attendings that I work with, after lengthy discussions about some of the areas that "traditional medicine" fails. If I were to end up getting accepted to the ND program I have applied to, my goal would be to use as many modern techniques integrated with what I learn there as possible. Thanks for the input everyone, I honestly wasn't expecting so much support towards digging in and going for DO after the negative feedback I received just a few months back.

As for NDs being ignorant of modern medicine and not knowing what they are doing, I think that is a huge misconception among traditional medical practitioners. I have had extensive exposure to some competent NDs, some incompetent NDs, competent MDs/DOs, and incompetent MDs/DOs. You guys might be surprised to hear that every single one of them has held the bias that "MDs/DOs are idiots" or "NDs are idiots", but after I have discussed how they actually practice, they have been pleasantly surprised. I have worked with NDs who prescribe, vaccinate, and utilize antibiotics when indicated, and completely blew an NDs mind when I discussed the ER docs I work with who refuse to prescribe antibiotics for everything, a misconception that completely changed her view of modern medicine.

TL;DR; keep an open mind, you'd be surprised to learn how competent (obviously not all) NDs can be.
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I have no previous experience with naturopathy.
I contacted a colleague in Canada who is familiar with the practice.
I must re-iterate that even if the stigma is unwarranted, attending one of these schools will be a detriment to a subsequent application for medicine, so be very sure of this choice before proceeding.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
And


I understand that it has been a relatively short period of time since the IAs, and my goal when applying is that my reinvention as a student with no issues since will help ADCOMs realize that I am not the person I was when I started college.

As for looking into Naturopathic programs, I would be careful about the sources you choose to look into. There are a number of BS online programs that certify you as a "naturopath", but that is not even close to the same thing as a naturopathic physician. An ND has to attend one of the 7 accredited colleges, and is eligible for prescribing rights and minor surgery in the states they can become licensed in (mostly west coast). One of the misconceptions is that those online programs are what NDs are, when they really aren't. They have backgrounds in internal medicine, pharmacology, nutrition, etc.

On a different note, if it were to give you a little further insight as to my situation, would you be wiling to take a look at my personal statement?
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Prescribing rights to what? And minor surgery for what?
 
scrublyfe21 said:
As for looking into Naturopathic programs, I would be careful about the sources you choose to look into. There are a number of BS online programs that certify you as a "naturopath", but that is not even close to the same thing as a naturopathic physician. An ND has to attend one of the 7 accredited colleges, and is eligible for prescribing rights and minor surgery in the states they can become licensed in (mostly west coast). One of the misconceptions is that those online programs are what NDs are, when they really aren't. They have backgrounds in internal medicine, pharmacology, nutrition, etc.
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While what you are saying may be true, the ND students at the program where I live also take a year-long sequence of classes on homeopathy. How anyone intelligent enough to score a 34 on the MCAT could subject themselves to that is beyond me.
 
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scrublyfe21 said:
And

As for looking into Naturopathic programs, I would be careful about the sources you choose to look into. There are a number of BS online programs that certify you as a "naturopath", but that is not even close to the same thing as a naturopathic physician. An ND has to attend one of the 7 accredited colleges, and is eligible for prescribing rights and minor surgery in the states they can become licensed in (mostly west coast). One of the misconceptions is that those online programs are what NDs are, when they really aren't. They have backgrounds in internal medicine, pharmacology, nutrition, etc.

On a different note, if it were to give you a little further insight as to my situation, would you be wiling to take a look at my personal statement?
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Canada apparently has schools that grant the Doctor of Naturopathy degree.
My colleague has a depth and breadth of experience with several practitioners. It seems that physicians in Canada are liable for the medical care provided by ND's if a patient also receives care with one. Therefore, she is required to be aware of their strengths and weaknesses (whether she wants to or not!).

With regard to your PS: have mercy! I have to read thousands of these every year as part of my real job. If I start reading them in my spare time...
 
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If you do Naturopathy you will be seen as a quack by the mass majority of the population. I am related to one...and quite frankly it is a shady business. These folks have no credentials to claim that they can treat anything with their potions and yet they do. There are people making good money out there, but the mass majority are barely getting by...attaching themselves to the newest pyramid scheme potion as it becomes available. If you think that big pharm is scary...look at big placebo. Scary s$@!.

Get your DO or MD and then practice however you want (that isn't hurting people). I know tons of DOs and MDs who know more about nutrition than nutritionists and more alternative medicine than naturopaths. And with a real degree you will be trusted by more than 5% of the population.
 
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Dude, your grades and MCAT are fine... I dont know why you are so down on yourself? You have grades and MCAT scores that are good enough for any DO school and for plenty of MD schools if you choose appropriately...

Not to mention you basically are saying you would hate everything about ND - the training, the ideology, and the practice. If you dont want to do it, dont do it? Sack up and go with what you know is better, you can do it. If you apply to DO/MD school within the first 2 weeks of June, then subsequently get your secondaries and letters of rec back fast, I can dang near promise you that by this time next year you will have multiple DO/MD acceptances in hand.

Dont even go to your ND interview, spend the time shadowing or something. If you lose the money anyways, why tempt yourself with the inferior option of schooling. You will get accepted to ND school, so why make it harder on yourself to take the high road and apply next cycle to DO/MD?

Patience is a virtue and if you wait you will have a significantly better future. It sucks to wait another year, but what is a year when it comes to practicing in the field that you are actually called to, you know?
 
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Awesome Sauceome said:
Dude, your grades and MCAT are fine... I dont know why you are so down on yourself? You have grades and MCAT scores that are good enough for any DO school and for plenty of MD schools if you choose appropriately...

Not to mention you basically are saying you would hate everything about ND - the training, the ideology, and the practice. If you dont want to do it, dont do it? Sack up and go with what you know is better, you can do it. If you apply to DO/MD school within the first 2 weeks of June, then subsequently get your secondaries and letters of rec back fast, I can dang near promise you that by this time next year you will have multiple DO/MD acceptances in hand.

Dont even go to your ND interview, spend the time shadowing or something. If you lose the money anyways, why tempt yourself with the inferior option of schooling. You will get accepted to ND school, so why make it harder on yourself to take the high road and apply next cycle to DO/MD?

Patience is a virtue and if you wait you will have a significantly better future. It sucks to wait another year, but what is a year when it comes to practicing in the field that you are actually called to, you know?
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His grades aren't the issue. The IAs could be. I would get adcoms opinions on the topic. But I do know that a quack school like naturopathy isn't the answer.

MD > DO >>>> Caribbean >>>> Naturopathy

MD and DO are the only real opinions. You don't need to go to school to be a schister...only good business sense and a willingness to manipulate people.
 
j4pac said:
His grades aren't the issue. The IAs could be. I would get adcoms opinions on the topic. But I do know that a quack school like naturopathy isn't the answer.

MD > DO >>>> Caribbean >>>> Naturopathy

MD and DO are the only real opinions. You don't need to go to school to be a schister...only good business sense and a willingness to manipulate people.
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Granted I skimmed through the thread, but where/what are the IA's? I must have missed that part?

edit: found it. Hmm, thats a pickle... But at the same time, it was freshman year in a 5 year schooling stint... I mean seriously, its like year 1: IA, terrible grades, etc, etc. Year 4/5 : excellent grades, leadership, clinical experience, killer MCAT. Are you telling me an adcom would not see growth or maturation in there and look past his early years?
 
To be more accurate, the sentence should read: "We are constantly discovering new mechanisms in terms of pharmaceuticals, correct? Well, a lot of naturopathic treatments utilize UNPROVEN herbal remedies or physical manipulations, which, at least anecdotally, provide cures for a fair number of their patients.

Unfortunately, anecdotes don't make Medicine.

We are constantly discovering new mechanisms in terms of pharmaceuticals, correct? Well, alot of naturopathic treatments utilize herbal remedies or physical manipulations, which, at least anecdotally, provide cures for a fair number of their patients.
 
Goro said:
To be more accurate, the sentence should read: "We are constantly discovering new mechanisms in terms of pharmaceuticals, correct? Well, a lot of naturopathic treatments utilize UNPROVEN herbal remedies or physical manipulations, which, at least anecdotally, provide cures for a fair number of their patients.

Unfortunately, anecdotes don't make Medicine.

We are constantly discovering new mechanisms in terms of pharmaceuticals, correct? Well, alot of naturopathic treatments utilize herbal remedies or physical manipulations, which, at least anecdotally, provide cures for a fair number of their patients.
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what do you think about his IA's and the general trend of his academic career? Would your people take a good look at him?
 
Goro said:
To be more accurate, the sentence should read: "We are constantly discovering new mechanisms in terms of pharmaceuticals, correct? Well, a lot of naturopathic treatments utilize UNPROVEN herbal remedies or physical manipulations, which, at least anecdotally, provide cures for a fair number of their patients.

Unfortunately, anecdotes don't make Medicine.

We are constantly discovering new mechanisms in terms of pharmaceuticals, correct? Well, alot of naturopathic treatments utilize herbal remedies or physical manipulations, which, at least anecdotally, provide cures for a fair number of their patients.
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To be fair, there is still a lot of anecdotal medicine being practiced out there. The difference is, we should and do take it upon ourselves to pursue the best treatments based on the appropriate evidence if available. That is to say, we try our best based on weighing the current evidence. That's really where it differs, and for good reason.

Having worked in EMS for years, I know that field is rife with antiquated practices in many areas of the country. The perfect example of that is the use of the backboard. Luckily, we have very smart, outspoken providers in the arena pushing for updated guidelines. Unfortunately, in certain instances such as with backboards, it can be an uphill battle due to public perception and the desire to avoid litigation.

It frustrates me to no end when I discuss therapies with other providers, asking them why we do the things we do, and quite a few can't answer that question. Sure, something might make sense in theory, but we cannot possible dabble in theory when most of the evidence points to the contrary in certain instances. To me, that's lazy medicine which easily can be dangerous medicine.

That said, I think medical education at every level, from allied health to MD/DO/PhD has a long way to go. Good thing is, we're taking steps in the right direction.
 
You got this dude, you keep getting good grades like you are and it will prove that you are overcoming this. At the absolute worst, if the whole time issue between your IA comes up, I would say do a masters and then try again. But still, it would seems crazy that now, even 4-5 years later, with a dramatic and consistent upward trend (followed by an absurd MCAT) you could still not get into an MD/DO school. My n=1 vote is to give it a try this upcoming cycle. Apply within the first week of the application cycle opening. Apply to a broad range of MD and DO schools, at least 20 (maybe 8 DO and 12 MD). Pre-write your secondaries, write about the growth you have had over these past few years. Apply your maturation and write a killer personal statement. Give it everything you have. Then if no one takes you (which I would be shocked if someone didnt) then do a masters program or work for a couple of years - basically create some distance between your freshman year and applying. Then after some time, try again. I personally have a friend at UNC (a VERY good school) who did this. It takes more time, but if its what you are called to do, then its worth it. The other 30 years as a practicing physician in a field that you love is worth more than a year or two of struggle.

Dont do something just because you can or because its easy. Do what you know you need to do, even if its harder or takes longer. I am not usually one to sort of get emotional on this topic, but seriously, I think you can make it.
 
That could be the best middle ground option. There is absolutely no way that even after 2 years at TFA that your IA would even remotely be a problem. You would be like a perfect applicant. The only issue I see is whether or not your MCAT would expire by then? I cant remember if its 2 or 3 years?
 
scrublyfe21 said:
I received my score ~1-2 months ago. I want to say it's a 3 year expiration but I'm not sure if that would change with more and more people taking the extended MCAT in the coming years. I'm unsure about the complete TFA timeline, but I would imagine my "2 years" starts with training this summer if accepted, so I would teach the 2015-2016 school year (1 year), apply next summer, go through the process of possible interviews during that time period, find out my status the winter/spring of 2016-2017, which would coincide with my second year of teaching. So unless I'm severely off on my anticipated timeline, if I am accepted, I would transition directly from teaching to medical school, with a year to spare until my MCAT expiration date.
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Thats not a bad plan whatsoever.

I have a buddy doing TFA down in Texas, it was really hard at first but he has found his passion was teaching through it and is now applying for PhD programs to eventually become a professor. I have no doubt that you would learn just as much about yourself through it.

I say either way could work. You could apply this up coming cycle, or you could do TFA and apply in the 2016 cycle. Its really up to you.
 
AlteredScale said:
The UNM (University of Natural Medicine). Must have a 2.0 GPA for admissions consideration.

Check out their scholarly activity: http://universitynaturalmedicine.org/research/unm-sponsored-research/
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Jesus. The faculty page on this website is really an alphabet soup. Check this guy out:

"RANVIR PAHWA, PH.D., D.N.M., B.SC, M.SC, PH.D., DOHS, PGD TOX., MH, AHN, DHM, AYU. PRACT., DAC, DNM, IMD" Or this guy: "MARK DARGAN SMITH, N.D., PH.D., M.D. (MA)"

What I find peculiar is a lot of these people seem to have MDs but then it won't show you where it's from and it doesn't say if they were ever practicing physicians. I'm guessing Caribbean MD graduates that could never progress past graduation?

As to the OP: Look, the truth is you're smart enough to know the degree itself don't mean anything - it's what the degree qualifies you to do or what "doors" it opens. The N.D. degree, regardless of what it's going to teach you or how compatible you are with the material, is not going to open as many doors as an MD/DO or even an [AP]RN or PA-C. If you want to be in a healthcare role with real opportunities to treat the patients who need it the most you need to have a degree that will allow you to do so. The N.D. is not that degree.
 
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AlteredScale said:
LOL It's an accreditation requirement. Must have 2 or more degrees.
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Looks like some of the people on there have about 15...but the faculty page is so non-sensical in the way it is written it's hard to say :smack:
 
DesertPT said:
Looks like some of the people on there have about 15...but the faculty page is so non-sensical in the way it is written it's hard to say :smack:
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What's killing me is their research. You have preliminary data about some in-vitro study and then a thesis that recaps research done in the 1990's about aspartame and neurodegeneration.

They have 7 student dissertations and their school has been around since 1996.

....That's it. That's their scholarly work.:boom:
 
AlteredScale said:
What's killing me is their research. You have preliminary data about some in-vitro study and then a thesis that recaps research done in the 1990's about aspartame and neurodegeneration.

They have 7 student dissertations and their school has been around since 1996.

....That's it. That's their scholarly work.:boom:
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:bullcrap: I'm gonna just go with what was said earlier in the thread:

j4pac said:
You don't need to go to school to be a schister...only good business sense and a willingness to manipulate people
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kalat said:
Jesus. The faculty page on this website is really an alphabet soup. Check this guy out:

"RANVIR PAHWA, PH.D., D.N.M., B.SC, M.SC, PH.D., DOHS, PGD TOX., MH, AHN, DHM, AYU. PRACT., DAC, DNM, IMD" Or this guy: "MARK DARGAN SMITH, N.D., PH.D., M.D. (MA)"
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😆 haha, I noticed that one too....thought about googling to see what all those letters meant...but I'd probably rather not know lol
 
LOL. Well Mark Smith values his ND degree more than his MD. I think that is all you really need to know. This thread is boarding on DO vs Janitor.
 
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