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onyisraw said:
I have Egyptian friends who would not want to be considered anything other than Egyptian.

What about someone who is half African American (Black) and half Arab (other parent from overseas Middle East)?
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One can list more than one race/ethnicity on the AMCAS as well as on the US Census (most recently).
 
Iamkool said:
I really don't know what to do. This girl I know has been lying about being African American for all of undergrad (I found this out because her name just got announced for the african american scholarships) and has been getting scholarships for it. Now for medical school, she is applying as African American when she is really Egyptian. The thing is, i'm afraid she might actually get away with it since she kind of looks dark skinned and has been getting away with it for all of college and been getting all these scholarships that should be going to actual African Americans. She brags about how white she is and how she only has white friends, and says very racially insensitive things. She only gets mediocre grades and a mediocre mcat (a 27) even though she comes from a privileged family so she doesn't have actual disadvantages like actual minorities but doesn't work hard because she knows she can still get in.

Should I snitch on her? idk what is the right thing to do. I feel like she is taking away a spot from someone who will actually contribute to their community.
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The definition of an ethnicity is the sociocultural group that you choose to identify with.
Medical schools may not discriminate on the basis of race,or ethnicity. This is agaisnt federal law.
Affirmative action plans must be approved by a general assembly of a state. No such existing plan exists for medical colleges;however, many undergraduate schools have approved these plans.

Therefore, If medical schools give prefrence to this applicant on the basis of her ethnicity alone, they are violtating federal law and subject to various consequences.

This has been a subject of great controversy, because we all know Medical colleges do this;however, it is very hard to prove. I understand their reasoning of supporting under represented people in medicine;however, it is unfair to give someone prefrence just because of the way they choose to identify themselves.
 
Do you think we're complete idiots? Her name alone will give her away, if not, her parents' name will.



Iamkool said:
I really don't know what to do. This girl I know has been lying about being African American for all of undergrad (I found this out because her name just got announced for the african american scholarships) and has been getting scholarships for it. Now for medical school, she is applying as African American when she is really Egyptian. The thing is, i'm afraid she might actually get away with it since she kind of looks dark skinned and has been getting away with it for all of college and been getting all these scholarships that should be going to actual African Americans. She brags about how white she is and how she only has white friends, and says very racially insensitive things. She only gets mediocre grades and a mediocre mcat (a 27) even though she comes from a privileged family so she doesn't have actual disadvantages like actual minorities but doesn't work hard because she knows she can still get in.

Should I snitch on her? idk what is the right thing to do. I feel like she is taking away a spot from someone who will actually contribute to their community.
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100% correct. So is my white Afrikaans-speaking neighbor. But neither are URM.
Egypt is in Africa. If she is an Egyptian-American, she is an African-American.
 
freemontie said:
Good luck finding out where "my people" 🙄 were in in 1491. I don't even know where they were 4 generations ago. And I don't care, and I'm befuddled at why you do.

Hypothetical: In the mid 1800s the British Empire brought an influx of Indian laborers into East Africa. Today, there is a significant Indian diaspora in SE Africa. Question: how much cross-breeding between the Indian and native African population would be enough to discount the Asian disadvantage and/or qualify for the Black advantage for any given descendant? And are you going to test that with an elaborate family tree, genetically- or, like I assume, skin color, hair type or other superficial physical characteristics.
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Some people are confused by whether they are x or y due to migration. Yes, there are those who have a mixed heritage although I suppose if you still identify as Indian then this is indicative of Indian ancestry.

I've seen the same for Eastern Europeans whose ancestors fled in the mid-twentieth century and settled in South America. Hard to call them "Hispanic".
 
LizzyM said:
Maybe add this to interviewers' notes? http://nis.princeton.edu/downloads/NIS-Skin-Color-Scale.pdf

I don't think so. It is about race and ethnicity, not skin color. It is about whether your ancestors came from sub-Sahara Africa. Where were your people in 1491?

Egyptians are classified as "white" which is a classification for people who have ancestry from the peoples of Europe, North Africa or the Middle East; it is a category not a color.
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Okay, wait. I thought the point of URM consideration in admissions was that producing a physician population of similar racial/ethnic makeup as the patient population was in the interest of public health because patients respond better to physicians that look like them, relate to them in background and culture, etc. If that's the case, then does ancestry actually matter?

Consider a white male infant adopted and raised by a black, African-American family in the U.S. This child becomes a product of the culture he is brought up in, and is as much "culturally" (i.e. customs, perspectives, etc.) black as his non-adopted black siblings. The key difference is perhaps the child does not experience the same challenges (of whatever sort) as his siblings due to his skin color. This child would not be classified as URM.

Consider the same child but a novel medical procedure induces melanocyte activity such that he attains equal pigmentation compared to his siblings (assume reasonable facial feature similarity.) This child would be classified as URM, correct? I don't recall AMCAS wanting records of biological parent ancestry.

In this case the argument would ostensibly be that in not "appearing" black, the child would not have the same advantage as a typical black physician in working with black patients. So, isn't skin color exactly what is important?

Edit: Also, if ancestry is for some reason important, doesn't this imply that the "URM advantage" is more of a traditional affirmative action initiative unlike it is usually described?
 
gettheleadout said:
Okay, wait. I thought the point of URM consideration in admissions was that producing a physician population of similar racial/ethnic makeup as the patient population was in the interest of public health because patients respond better to physicians that look like them, relate to them in background and culture, etc. If that's the case, then does ancestry actually matter?
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I thought it was to make up for historical discrimination against specific racial and cultural groups?
 
Tired said:
I thought it was to make up for historical discrimination against specific racial and cultural groups?
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That's what affirmative action is, but I'm nearly certain I've seen (and had) discussion here on SDN with @LizzyM that characterized it as a means toward a patient-centered public health goal.
 
gettheleadout said:
That's what affirmative action is, but I'm nearly certain I've seen (and had) discussion here on SDN with @LizzyM that characterized it as a means toward a patient-centered public health goal.
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Man, if that's what it actually is for, that presents a whole new range of philosophical problems. Looking forward to the further devolution of this thread.
 
LizzyM said:
Some people are confused by whether they are x or y due to migration. Yes, there are those who have a mixed heritage although I suppose if you still identify as Indian then this is indicative of Indian ancestry.

I've seen the same for Eastern Europeans whose ancestors fled in the mid-twentieth century and settled in South America. Hard to call them "Hispanic".
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So same question- are you going to ask for a detailed family tree and proof of multi-generation ancestry in South America or are you going to look at the person's face and make a judgment call? How about immigration in the 1800s? 1700s? As someone who grew up in South Florida- I can tell you there are some mighty pale eastern-european-looking self-identified Hispanic-Americans, some of whom barely speak English, running around. And they're not trying to fake Hispanic ties for AA- they really believe it. How do you reconcile that? (I'm not trying to argue a point anymore, I'm just curious) Your where-your-ancestors-were-in-1491 method of ethnicity doesn't always jive with legitimate self-identification.
 
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Tired said:
Man, if that's what it actually is for, that presents a whole new range of philosophical problems. Looking forward to the further devolution of this thread.
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I felt that this issue was covered very well by @LizzyM @Goro and @ChemEngMD but i won't be surprised if this thread does collapse into a URM debate.

In any event, i'll post this just in case

scaled.php
 
Mad Jack said:
Pretty sure that based on op's concerns, the individual is not arab. If she was a black Egyptian of non-Arab descent she would be fine. But the Arab populations of North Africa are considered ORM.
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I agree with you in terms of OP's friend. If she's always identified as white but all of a sudden is black when applying to scholarships/medical school, then that's obviously wrong. I was just adding on to the comment that I replied to.
 
Tired said:
Man, if that's what it actually is for, that presents a whole new range of philosophical problems. Looking forward to the further devolution of this thread.
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It's whatever-rationale-works coupled with some intellectual gymnastics on what constitutes ethnicity.

But if you're asking for the private reasons among school officials- it's simply so that their school doesn't "look racist" with a zero or extremely tiny black student body. Or visibly-latino student body. (As LizzyM suggested, those eastern-european-descendent latinos won't help.)
 
As I was looking back over this thread it made me wonder what do they call African-Americans in other countries? My experience is limited to only the states so this is interesting to me. Also if AMCAS means only black people why not just say black? That seems to be a sure fire way to fix problems like this.
 
freemontie said:
So same question- are you going to ask for a detailed family tree and proof of multi-generation ancestry in South America or are you going to look at the person's face and make a judgment call? How about immigration in the 1800s? 1700s? As someone who grew up in South Florida- I can tell you there are some mighty pale eastern-european-looking self-identified Hispanic-Americans, some of whom barely speak English, running around. And they're not trying to fake Hispanic ties for AA- they really believe it. How do you reconcile that? (I'm not trying to argue a point anymore, I'm just curious) Your where-your-ancestors-were-in-1491 method of ethnicity doesn't always jive with legitimate self-identification.
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Hispanics don't have to be tan/olive skinned to be from the Caribbean/traditionally underrepresented countries. My family is from a Caribbean country and we are pale with dark hair and eyes. I know Puerto Ricans who are blonde with blue eyes. Much of the Caribbean (and subsequently South FL/Miami) was colonized by the Spanish in the 15th century.
 
Also from what I learned in my Ethics course this past semester, Affirmative Action is not meant to make up for historical mistakes but rather to even the current playing field. And there are two classes of affirmative action, strong affirmative action (ex. Requiring a certain number of seats be reserved for minority groups to ensure equal representation) and weak affirmative action (ex. making admissions to an institution blind when it comes to race, gender or other criteria to ensure equal opportunity). If I am wrong about this and someone is better informed than I am, I'd be interested in learning how you understand it.
 
Ismet said:
Hispanics don't have to be tan/olive skinned to be from the Caribbean/traditionally underrepresented countries. My family is from a Caribbean country and we are pale with dark hair and eyes. I know Puerto Ricans who are blonde with blue eyes. Much of the Caribbean (and subsequently South FL/Miami) was colonized by the Spanish in the 15th century.
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Spaniards have blonde hair and blue eyes?
 
Ismet said:
Spaniards are Caucasian. They can have blonde hair and blue eyes.

My nephews have blonde hair and blue eyes. Obviously that trait has to be in there for that to happen.
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Or they're not actually Spanish.
 
There is really no point to debating it anyway, it's not like we are on a committee to decide whether or not to do it.

And I meant that there isn't affirmative action for surgical residency so if they can't cut it on the step 1 they won't make it. If they can then they clearly belonged there despite their lower than usual mcat.
 
The applicant can say whatever she wants.
It is up to the committee to decide if there is an additional benefit to society associated with her acceptance.
If there is the appearance of gaming the system, it will not benefit her.
 
ChemEngMD said:
I swear I've never seen @freemontie post in any thread that didn't have the potential to turn into a URM flame war
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You seem to gravitate to all the URM-related threads to defend AA, and thus find me there sometimes. And I always love your topic-relevant input. I'm actually eager to see what name you have for me this time.
 
Ismet said:
?

This is off topic. Nevermind.
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Actually it was very on topic. We're debating whether African/Black means the locale of ancestral origin, appearance or a combination. And to what degree ancestral (i.e. migration from how long ago)? If we're going to be consistent, the same rationale should be applied to what Spanish means.

Now, do you think they care about your Spanish heritage from a long time ago? Of course not. A blonde blue-eyed applicant might as well be from Russia for all the good it will do for diversity PR.
 
Tired said:
Spaniards have blonde hair and blue eyes?
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They can be. A friend of mine has a father from the U.S. and mother from Spain and spent the first few years of his life in Spain. He's fluent in Spanish and heavily identifies with the culture, but I swear he would be the poster child for the Aryans if this were 1930's Germany.
 

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freemontie said:
You seem to gravitate to all the URM-related threads to defend AA, and thus find me there sometimes. And I always love your topic-relevant input. I'm actually eager to see what name you have for me this time.
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Lmao bro I'm actually on here providing advice and insight as I have actually gone thru the application process and can provide advice about admissions (not to mention I now interview students). Your purpose on this board seems to be restricted to just arguing.

I don't defend AA for medical school admissions because it doesn't exist. I defend URM designation because I think (and the data shows) it provides more physicians to underserved communities than would exist if it weren't in place.

When I'm not on my phone I will re-post the same AAMC data I have shown a hundred times that shows graduating medical students of URM backgrounds reported twice the rate of plans to work in underserved communities as their classmates.
 
freemontie said:
Actually it was very on topic. We're debating whether African/Black means the locale of ancestral origin, appearance or a combination. And to what degree ancestral (i.e. migration from how long ago)? If we're going to be consistent, the same rationale should be applied to what Spanish means.

Now, do you think they care about your Spanish heritage from a long time ago? Of course not. A blonde blue-eyed applicant might as well be from Russia for all the good it will do for diversity PR.
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I was simply addressing your comment about European-looking Spanish-speaking Hispanic Americans you encounter in South FL. You don't have to look like your stereotypical Hispanic (olive skin, dark hair) to be Hispanic. This is completely different from the African/Black discussion because Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. Hispanics can really be of any race.
 
ChemEngMD said:
Lmao bro I'm actually on here providing advice and insight as I have actually gone thru the application process and can provide advice about admissions (not to mention I now interview students). Your purpose on this board seems to be restricted to just arguing.

I don't defend AA for medical school admissions because it doesn't exist. I defend URM designation because I think (and the data shows) it provides more physicians to underserved communities than would exist if it weren't in place.

When I'm not on my phone I will re-post the same AAMC data I have shown a hundred times that shows graduating medical students of URM backgrounds reported twice the rate of plans to work in underserved communities as their classmates.
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I know you will. That's kind of your M.O.: going off topic and defending AA/URM status by any means. Personally, I've heard it enough. I suggest you just start a new thread to show off your latest AA defense.
 
ChemEngMD said:
Lmao bro I'm actually on here providing advice and insight as I have actually gone thru the application process and can provide advice about admissions (not to mention I now interview students). Your purpose on this board seems to be restricted to just arguing.

I don't defend AA for medical school admissions because it doesn't exist. I defend URM designation because I think (and the data shows) it provides more physicians to underserved communities than would exist if it weren't in place.

When I'm not on my phone I will re-post the same AAMC data I have shown a hundred times that shows graduating medical students of URM backgrounds reported twice the rate of plans to work in underserved communities as their classmates.
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Numbers I've seen seem more like 30%-40% which isn't trivial but isn't 2x, but would love to see your source. Asians are discriminated against in admissions yet report even lower willingness to go into primary care/serve under represented areas so perhaps that's why there is a bias against them. I don't agree with the whole process, but I can understand the logic behind it.
 
Goro said:
Do you think we're complete idiots? Her name alone will give her away, if not, her parents' name will.
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This is an absolutely horrible way to look at it. Arabic names are very common amongst non-Arabs including Africans, African-Americans, Pakistanis, Indonesians, etc. According to your logic Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and El-Hajj Malik Al-Shabbaz would not be URM because of their names.

Edit: Most Egyptian or Moroccan Americans that I know identify with the African-American community more than with the white community. I mean, who considers French Montana white?
 
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Shams al Deen said:
This is an absolutely horrible way to look at it. Arabic names are very common amongst non-Arabs including Africans, African-Americans, Pakistanis, Indonesians, etc. According to your logic Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and El-Hajj Malik Al-Shabbaz would not be URM because of their names.

Edit: Most Egyptian or Moroccan Americans that I know identify with the African-American community more than with the white community. I mean, who considers French Montana white?
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Gotta lol when those mens' birth names were Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr., Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr., and Malcolm Little.

I consider French Montana Arab since he considers himself Arab like ~3/4 Moroccans do. Most Moroccans are from Arab and Berber descent. Do you really consider French Montana or DJ Khaled black?

Most North Africans don't consider themselves black, but they consider themselves African. If that makes sense.
 
anxiouslyanxious said:
Gotta lol when those mens' birth names were Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr., Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr., and Malcolm Little.

I consider French Montana Arab since he considers himself Arab like ~3/4 Moroccans do. Moroccans are Arab and Berber. Do you really consider French Montana or DJ Khaled black?

Most North Africans don't consider themselves black, but they consider themselves African. If that makes sense.
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Not sure what your point is with the birth names. Fine, take Hasheem Thabeet, Hakeem Olajuwon, Laila Ali, Shareef Abdul Raheem. My point is that Arab names are in no way limited to Arabs.

I largely consider race based on self-identification. If one is Egyptian-American and identifies strongly with the African-American community, then I don't consider it within my right to say that person is not URM. The fact that someone was considering snitching somebody out on this is laughable to me.
 
Look at the definitions of the US Census:
White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian.

Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro"; or report entries such as African American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.

American Indian and Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment. This category includes people who indicate their race as "American Indian or Alaska Native" or report entries such as Navajo, Blackfeet, Inupiat, Yup'ik, or Central American Indian groups or South American Indian groups.

Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes people who indicate their race as "Asian Indian," "Chinese," "Filipino," "Korean," "Japanese," "Vietnamese," and "Other Asian" or provide other detailed Asian responses.

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands. It includes people who indicate their race as "Native Hawaiian," "Guamanian or Chamorro," "Samoan," and "Other Pacific Islander" or provide other detailed Pacific Islander responses.

Two or more races. People may have chosen to provide two or more races either by checking two or more race response check boxes, by providing multiple responses, or by some combination of check boxes and other responses.

The concept of race is separate from the concept of Hispanic origin. Percentages for the various race categories add to 100 percent, and should not be combined with the percent Hispanic.

Non-Hispanic White alone persons. Individuals who responded "No, not Spanish/Hispanic/Latino" and who reported "White" as their only entry in the race question. Tallies that show race categories for Hispanics and non-Hispanics separately are also available.

It is not about your name or your color. It is about your "origins". that's why I say, " where were your people in 1491? what are the racial and ethnic origins with which you identify? "
 
Shams al Deen said:
I largely consider race based on self-identification. If one is Egyptian-American and identifies strongly with the African-American community, then I don't consider it within my right to say that person is not URM. The fact that someone was considering snitching somebody out on this is laughable to me.
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Yea, but in this situation the individual (according to OP) has referred to themselves as white, which implies that she identifies as white.
 
ChemEngMD said:
Lmao bro I'm actually on here providing advice and insight as I have actually gone thru the application process and can provide advice about admissions (not to mention I now interview students). Your purpose on this board seems to be restricted to just arguing.

I don't defend AA for medical school admissions because it doesn't exist. I defend URM designation because I think (and the data shows) it provides more physicians to underserved communities than would exist if it weren't in place.

When I'm not on my phone I will re-post the same AAMC data I have shown a hundred times that shows graduating medical students of URM backgrounds reported twice the rate of plans to work in underserved communities as their classmates.
Click to expand...

Does the AAMC data differentiate between the HBCU's and Puerto Rican schools vs. all the other medical schools? Given that HBCU's are usually mission based and that Puerto Rico is very impoverished compared to the rest of the US, I would think these schools would skew the data a bit, just as they likely skew GPA and MCAT data.

I also would be very interested to see the data for AA's vs Afro-Carribbean and African immigrant medical school graduates and their likelihood of practicing in underserved communities. I doubt there are many comprehensive studies on this, but it would definitely be interesting to see.
 
Shams al Deen said:
Not sure what your point is with the birth names. Fine, take Hasheem Thabeet, Hakeem Olajuwon, Laila Ali, Shareef Abdul Raheem. My point is that Arab names are in no way limited to Arabs.

I largely consider race based on self-identification. If one is Egyptian-American and identifies strongly with the African-American community, then I don't consider it within my right to say that person is not URM. The fact that someone was considering snitching somebody out on this is laughable to me.
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I think a ton of people would disagree. If race is based off of self identification then what would be the point in recognizing ethnicity? This whole thread reminds me of Steve Martin's opening lines in The Jerk, "I was born a poor black child..."
 
Shams al Deen said:
Not sure what your point is with the birth names. Fine, take Hasheem Thabeet, Hakeem Olajuwon, Laila Ali, Shareef Abdul Raheem. My point is that Arab names are in no way limited to Arabs.

I largely consider race based on self-identification. If one is Egyptian-American and identifies strongly with the African-American community, then I don't consider it within my right to say that person is not URM. The fact that someone was considering snitching somebody out on this is laughable to me.
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Just found it funny that the people you used as examples didn't have parents with Arabic names and didn't have only Arabic names for their entire lives. Don't disagree that Arabic names aren't limited to Arabs.

So would you consider a person of any race...white, asian, etc... who identifies strongly with the African-American community URM? That'd be self-identification for you. The standards LizzyM posted are there for a reason.

Everyone finds the snitching part laughable. Lol.

PrettyIvy said:
Yea, but in this situation the individual (according to OP) has referred to themselves as white, which implies that she identifies as white.
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Ding ding ding.
 
Tired said:
I wonder if LUCOM gives preference to URMs?
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If they want to be an accredited medical school, they have
"policies and practices to achieve appropriate diversity among its students, faculty, staff, and other members of its academic community, and must engage in ongoing, systematic, and focused efforts to attract and retain students, faculty, staff, and others from demographically diverse backgrounds."
http://www.lcme.org/connections/connections_2013-2014/IS-16_2013-2014.htm
 
LizzyM said:
If they want to be an accredited medical school, they have
"policies and practices to achieve appropriate diversity among its students, faculty, staff, and other members of its academic community, and must engage in ongoing, systematic, and focused efforts to attract and retain students, faculty, staff, and others from demographically diverse backgrounds."
http://www.lcme.org/connections/connections_2013-2014/IS-16_2013-2014.htm
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I thought LCME was just for MD schools?
 
LizzyM said:
It is not about your name or your color. It is about your "origins". that's why I say, " where were your people in 1491? what are the racial and ethnic origins with which you identify? "
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Okay, so let me ask you this. Which of the following two individuals is URM and why is the distinction important in medical school admissions?

A: An individual of non-African (say, Indian/South Asian) ancestry adopted at infancy and raised by an African-American family, bearing a traditionally African-American name, identifying with the community and culture of his African-American family, and appearing Black in skin tone/features.

B: An individual of African (say, Nigerian) ancestry adopted at infancy and raised by a Caucasian/White non-Hispanic family, bearing a traditionally Anglo-Saxon name, identifying with the community and culture of his Anglo-Saxon family, and appearing Black in skin tone/features.
 
gettheleadout said:
Okay, so let me ask you this. Which of the following two individuals is URM and why is the distinction important in medical school admissions?

A: An individual of non-African (say, Indian/South Asian) ancestry adopted at infancy and raised by an African-American family, bearing a traditionally African-American name, identifying with the community and culture of his African-American family, and appearing Black in skin tone/features.

B: An individual of African (say, Nigerian) ancestry adopted at infancy and raised by a Caucasian/White non-Hispanic family, bearing a traditionally Anglo-Saxon name, identifying with the community and culture of his Anglo-Saxon family, and appearing Black in skin tone/features.
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Or this: A white baby that was in a plane crash in North Africa where her parents were killed and she was the only survivor. Then she was found and raised by Somali refugees who ultimately settled in Italy. And then later in life she sustained a head injury that made her think and identify as Chinese.
 
NONE of these are URM except honest-to-God African Americans. And I have yet to see a Black Muslim interview at my school. I seriously doubt s/her will come in with Nubian or Arab features either.

Shams al Deen said:
This is an absolutely horrible way to look at it. Arabic names are very common amongst non-Arabs including Africans, African-Americans, Pakistanis, Indonesians, etc. According to your logic Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and El-Hajj Malik Al-Shabbaz would not be URM because of their names.

Edit: Most Egyptian or Moroccan Americans that I know identify with the African-American community more than with the white community. I mean, who considers French Montana white?
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There's a COCA equivalent.

"Recruitment and selection of students for admission to a COM must not discriminate on the basis of race, ethnicity, color, sex, gender, religion, national origin, age or disabilities. Guideline: A diverse student body provides the richness necessary for osteopathic medical education. A COM should make every effort to recruit students from a diverse background to foster that richness while meeting its mission and objectives."
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/accreditation/predoctoral accreditation/Documents/COM-accreditation-standards-current.pdf

Tired said:
I thought LCME was just for MD schools?
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Y'know, there are Caucasians and other non-URM people attending the HBCs. they have a demonstrated commitment to helping communities of color. So y'all stop with the fool's errands, will ya?

Okay, so let me ask you this. Which of the following two individuals is URM and why is the distinction important in medical school admissions?

A: An individual of non-African (say, Indian/South Asian) ancestry adopted at infancy and raised by an African-American family, bearing a traditionally African-American name, identifying with the community and culture of his African-American family, and appearing Black in skin tone/features.

B: An individual of African (say, Nigerian) ancestry adopted at infancy and raised by a Caucasian/White non-Hispanic family, bearing a traditionally Anglo-Saxon name, identifying with the community and culture of his Anglo-Saxon family, and appearing Black in skin tone/features.
 
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Tired said:
Or this: A white baby that was in a plane crash in North Africa where her parents were killed and she was the only survivor. Then she was found and raised by Somali refugees who ultimately settled in Italy. And then later in life she sustained a head injury that made her think and identify as Chinese.
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While I appreciate the sarcasm, my point is that the only things that truly matter are outward appearance and personal cultural background insofar as we are concerned with patients identifying with their physicians. Ancestry is correlated with these but itself is irrelevant. The dark Indian child raised by African American parents in that community is Black as far as he/she and everyone else is concerned because no one can tell where his/her ancestors happened to reside.
 
LizzyM said:
If you are being admitted to the hospital or signing up as a bone marrow donor, are you going to identify according to your DNA based on your known ancestry or are you going to pull some "I identify with the x community" stuff.
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How is this in any way relevant to the social implications of race and ethnicity?
 
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