.

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
It will hurt. At the minimum, it will make you look, well, stupid, and at the worse, if you knew what you were doing, well, you were stealing.

Check the box, explain it, OWN IT and lead an exemplary life from now on, and try to get into positions of responsibility. And always have a Plan B.

And please SDNers, refrain from the "but what if OP was starving???!!!" moral equivalencies.
 
Goro said:
It will hurt. At the minimum, it will make you look, well, stupid, and at the worse, if you knew what you were doing, well, you were stealing.

Check the box, explain it, OWN IT and lead an exemplary life from now on, and try to get into positions of responsibility. And always have a Plan B.

And please SDNers, refrain from the "but what if OP was starving???!!!" moral equivalencies.
Click to expand...
But what if OP's homeless friend was starving???!!!

OP: this wasn't as bad as, say, robbing the liquor store, but it ain't good, either. You knew the rule and decided the risk (an institutional action) was worth the reward (a little snack for later). This demonstrated poor judgment. To quote my esteemed colleague's words from another thread:
Goro said:
Again, it's all about reducing risk, people.
Click to expand...
You've missed this particular opportunity for risk reduction. Next stop: damage control. @Goro couldn't be more right: own it and prove that you learned a lesson. Trying to explain it away won't sit well with adcoms: they'll see you as a risky candidate who doesn't accept personal responsibility for mistakes. They also won't appreciate you attempting to justify it on the basis of either personal circumstances or the perceived stupidity of the rule itself. The best approach is to say, "I did it, it was stupid and wrong, and I learned my lesson" (I'm paraphrasing here). And have a spotless track record from now on that you can point to as proof that the lesson was learned.

(EDIT: I wrote this before you'd posted about not knowing the rule. Hard-liners will fall back on "ignorance of the law is no excuse" anyway. Whether or not you agree with that approach in this instance is irrelevant. Part of being a mature adult is recognizing the compromise that must be made between idealism and practicality. In this case, it doesn't matter whether you think you should be in trouble; what matters is that you are in trouble and now you need to recover. That's doable, but (to cite a couple clichés) it's a bitter pill and will require that you eat some humble pie -- whether you feel you deserve it or not. My advice is unchanged.)
 
Last edited:
ciestar said:
Considering you already paid for the food..
Click to expand...
seren1051 said:
Damn, this is harsh... I took food from my dining hall all the time (I thought it should justify ~$17 I'm paying for the meal)
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying, but this is still very immature reasoning. Transpose it to another scenario: "I felt like the $60 I paid at GameStop was too steep, so I took a second game to justify it." It doesn't work that way.

The dining hall has the right to set whatever rules and prices it wants. If you disagree with them, there are many other affordable options for food. Flaunting the rules and then justifying the behavior is exactly the sort of thing that adcoms and residency program directors won't tolerate.
 
HomeSkool said:
I get what you're saying, but this is still very immature reasoning. Transpose it to another scenario: "I felt like the $60 I paid at GameStop was too steep, so I took a second game to justify it." It doesn't work that way.

The dining hall has the right to set whatever rules and prices it wants. If you disagree with them, there are many other affordable options for food. Flaunting the rules and then justifying the behavior is exactly the sort of thing that adcoms and residency program directors won't tolerate.
Click to expand...

It seems harsh. But if it is a rule, it’s a rule and you cannot really defend that if that is the case.
 
"I took some food from the dining hall. I didn't realize there was a rule against it, and I certainly wouldn't have done it had I known. Of course, looking back at it now, I can see why they'd have a rule like this, and ignorance of the law is no defense. So I have to accept responsibility for my actions, and I have to say that I've become more careful about thinking things through more fully now than I was before."

That said, if what you took was small (snack-sized) and your school writes you up for this, they're being jerks.
 
This happened to my buddy our freshman year. He got talked to and let off with an official warning, which is NOT an Institutional Action that you would need to report. Just be nice at the meeting and say you feel like ****, didn't know, and it will never happen again.
 
DokterMom said:
"I took some food from the dining hall. I didn't realize there was a rule against it, and I certainly wouldn't have done it had I known. Of course, looking back at it now, I can see why they'd have a rule like this, and ignorance of the law is no defense. So I have to accept responsibility for my actions, and I have to say that I've become more careful about thinking things through more fully now than I was before.".

That said, if what you took was small (snack-sized) and your school writes you up for this, they're being jerks.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%; this is very harsh, but OP will be swimming uphill against the mindset that Adcoms will have of "why should we take a risk on this person when we have so many other people who didn't do this??".

That said, OP, sometimes you have to apply with the app you have, warts and all, and see how the cycle shakes out. There are Adcom members who believe in redemption.

But just be prepared to have your medical aspirations in stasis for awhile.
 
HomeSkool said:
I get what you're saying, but this is still very immature reasoning. Transpose it to another scenario: "I felt like the $60 I paid at GameStop was too steep, so I took a second game to justify it." It doesn't work that way.

The dining hall has the right to set whatever rules and prices it wants. If you disagree with them, there are many other affordable options for food. Flaunting the rules and then justifying the behavior is exactly the sort of thing that adcoms and residency program directors won't tolerate.
Click to expand...

That's not a very good analogy. Your situation is actual theft, OP took some extra food from the dining hall as a college student. Chill, OP, you'll be fine.

Edit: I do agree, though, that if this does result in an IA (probably won't), that you must be 100% honest about it. Don't justify. Just own up and even in this case you'll be fine so long as you have no other red flags or character flaws in the coming years.
 
LebronManning said:
That's not a very good analogy. Your situation is actual theft, OP took some extra food from the dining hall as a college student. Chill, OP, you'll be fine.

Edit: I do agree, though, that if this does result in an IA (probably won't), that you must be 100% honest about it. Don't justify. Just own up and even in this case you'll be fine so long as you have no other red flags or character flaws in the coming years.
Click to expand...
The analogy isn't for comparison to the OP, it's to respond to the attitude of entitlement underlying the use of price to justify breaking the rules. While shoplifting is more serious than breaking dining hall rules, the parallel stands.

Even if you don't like my analogy, I'm glad we agree that humbly owning it is the best response. Whether or not the OP is justified, the institution holds all the cards here. Best for the OP to stay humble and live to fight another day.

@DokterMom: Wise words about how to approach this. (Although I don't think they'd be "jerks." I think "douchebagging asshats" is more accurate.)
 
Last edited:
It's pretty absurd that something like this can prevent somebody from being a doctor.
This is no way reflects a deep personality flaw on the part of the OP.

Stealing food from a dining hall is like driving 5 over the speed limit.
Illegal? Sure. Wrong? Not in the slightest.

HomeSkool said:
If you disagree with them, there are many other affordable options for food.
Click to expand...
Many schools require students to buy meal plans. It's a captive market with no ability to engage in any sort of choice. They tell you how much it's going to cost and what you're going to get. I see nothing wrong with balancing the equation in your own favor.


Of course, as a medical student, I am not encouraging nor would I ever engage in or condone such an egregious moral failing as stealing a couple bucks worth of food from an upstanding, infallible institute of higher learning that surely has billions in the bank.
 
pstrick said:
It's pretty absurd that something like this can prevent somebody from being a doctor.
Click to expand...
It shouldn't, as long as the OP responds appropriately.

pstrick said:
This is no way reflects a deep personality flaw on the part of the OP.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

pstrick said:
Of course, as a medical student, I am not encouraging nor would I ever engage in or condone such an egregious moral failing as stealing a couple bucks worth of food from an upstanding, infallible institute of higher learning that surely has billions in the bank.
Click to expand...
Ah, moral relativism, how thou rearest thy ugly head.
 
I think anyone who elects to take more school cafeteria food home to eat should have their head examined.

This is obviously a garbage rule, but you broke it and somehow got caught. Own it and move on. Explain it where you need to, and otherwise let the rest of your application speak for itself when it comes time. It’s far less severe than a DUI or a cheating IA.
 
Goro said:
.
I agree 100%; this is very harsh, but OP will be swimming uphill against the mindset that Adcoms will have of "why should we take a risk on this person when we have so many other people who didn't do this??".

That said, OP, sometimes you have to apply with the app you have, warts and all, and see how the cycle shakes out. There are Adcom members who believe in redemption.

But just be prepared to have your medical aspirations in stasis for awhile.
Click to expand...
Most people on this website seems to skip over the bolded statement. OP actions may or may not be terrible, but why him over someone with the same stats and no IA?
 
Last edited:
shakenramie said:
Now, I am just wondering what exactly constitutes an IA that I would have to report?? Let's say I just got a warning and had to pay some sort of fee, does that count as an IA?
Click to expand...

IA = Probation, Suspension, Expulsion. You will not be getting suspended or expelled so student conduct probation is the only way you will be getting an IA. I find it unlikely they would put you on probation for this, but it is possible.

Like I said above, a warning is not an Institutional action at most colleges including mine. To confirm, you can probably ask your conduct officer or check to see if you have a conduct record after this episode. Answer to both will probably be no given you receive a warning.
 
shakenramie said:
Hello so I just created an account to ask this question.

I was caught putting some food in a Tupperware in the dining hall, although the rules state that you are not allowed to leave the dining hall with any food. This resulted in a meeting with a university hearing officer for breaking the rule of "Theft, unauthorized use, or unauthorized possession of property or services of another; or knowing possession of stolen property".

If charged, how bad will this look on my application? I know you get to explain what happened. It doesn't seem like a big deal once I explain it, but I feel like just looking at the charge of theft makes it seem a lot more serious than it is. Will this hurt my application in any way, or should I forget about it and not worry ? (I still plan on disclosing and explaining it if charged)
Click to expand...
shakenramie said:
I was caught still inside the dining hall (sitting at a table) and therefore had not "stolen" the food yet since I had not left, so I'm not sure what will happen.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. You, perhaps, put the food in the Tupperware to keep it fresh before you ate it later during your meal in the dining room?? It would be an interesting alibi.

For those who think that taking food from the dining hall is no big deal, would you ask for a doggy bag at an all-you-can-eat buffet and expect to take home a second and third meal??


Now, I am just wondering what exactly constitutes an IA that I would have to report?? Let's say I just got a warning and had to pay some sort of fee, does that count as an IA?
Click to expand...

If you are expelled, suspended, put on probation, or charged a fine, that is most likely an IA. AAMC will tell you to check with your school administration if you are unsure.

If you get off with a warning, it might not be a IA. Again, check with your school administration to be sure.

If you do have to report this, be as explicit as possible. "I was eating dinner in the college cafeteria. I had more than I could eat on my tray and so I put half a sandwich and some grapes in a tupperware container with the intention of taking it with me to eat later. I did not realize that this was against the rules; I was stopped before I had even left the table in the cafeteria and written up for "theft". After a hearing, I was .... [state consequences]. I now know that taking leftovers from the cafeteria is strictly forbidden."

I do think that any adcom member with a heart (there are a few of us) will have pity on you and not hold this IA against you. It isn't as if you were trying to take someone's unattended electronics from a cafeteria table.
 
shakenramie said:
Hello so I just created an account to ask this question.

I was caught putting some food in a Tupperware in the dining hall, although the rules state that you are not allowed to leave the dining hall with any food. This resulted in a meeting with a university hearing officer for breaking the rule of "Theft, unauthorized use, or unauthorized possession of property or services of another; or knowing possession of stolen property".

If charged, how bad will this look on my application? I know you get to explain what happened. It doesn't seem like a big deal once I explain it, but I feel like just looking at the charge of theft makes it seem a lot more serious than it is. Will this hurt my application in any way, or should I forget about it and not worry ? (I still plan on disclosing and explaining it if charged)
Click to expand...
you were stealing or taking leftovers with you?

EDIT: I would think that it was not the first time. Usually, when they see it for the first time, they may let it go and just tell their supervisor or someone. Next time they are watching and catching on the spot.

I have always taken an apple or some kind of fruit with me because I ate it later. I was questioned several times (it was in my hand). I said that since it is part of a meal, I will just eat it later. Never had a problem. I think we could take out cone ice cream or something too. But it was looooong time ago; I don't remember all the rules.

But, if after you ate and then go grab more for the purpose of taking it out of the dining hall, that is a little different story.
 
Last edited:
However, I was caught still inside the dining hall (sitting at a table) and therefore had not "stolen" the food yet since I had not left, so I'm not sure what will happen.

^ If you were still in the dining room with the food and never left with it, then you never stole. If they wanted to nail you on it, they'd have had to keep their eyes on you, and stop you just as you left. The most they should have done while you were still in the cafeteria was given you a stern warning not to leave with any food in the container. As it stands, you're having a hearing for something you did not do. I'm assuming there weren't like huge signs everywhere saying something to the effect of "outside containers prohibited".

Anyways, IMO start as honest, non-inflammatory, and deferent as possible during the hearing, acknowledging their standpoint and stating it will never happen again, and mentioning that you were unaware of the rule if you think you can pull it off with sincerity. If they still threaten action, then pull out the the whole: "yo, you caught me at the wrong time if you wanted to charge me with this. I had never left the cafeteria, and therefore had not stolen" angle, in different words, of course.



Also, on an admittedly irrelevant note, our university FORCES you to have a meal plan as a freshman unless you commute. Each meal is also like $8.50 and if you don't use your allotted meals in a week, they just vanish without opportunity to defer, and you're given ~$1.20/meal in store credit during the last two weeks of class. It's disgusting. They probably had to do this because they wouldn't have had enough revenue to keep the cafeteria open if they hadn't forced freshman into overpriced meals.
 
LizzyM said:
This is interesting. You, perhaps, put the food in the Tupperware to keep it fresh before you ate it later during your meal in the dining room?? It would be an interesting alibi.

For those who think that taking food from the dining hall is no big deal, would you ask for a doggy bag at an all-you-can-eat buffet and expect to take home a second and third meal??




If you are expelled, suspended, put on probation, or charged a fine, that is most likely an IA. AAMC will tell you to check with your school administration if you are unsure.

If you get off with a warning, it might not be a IA. Again, check with your school administration to be sure.

If you do have to report this, be as explicit as possible. "I was eating dinner in the college cafeteria. I had more than I could eat on my tray and so I put half a sandwich and some grapes in a tupperware container with the intention of taking it with me to eat later. I did not realize that this was against the rules; I was stopped before I had even left the table in the cafeteria and written up for "theft". After a hearing, I was .... [state consequences]. I now know that taking leftovers from the cafeteria is strictly forbidden."

I do think that any adcom member with a heart (there are a few of us) will have pity on you and not hold this IA against you. It isn't as if you were trying to take someone's unattended electronics from a cafeteria table.
Click to expand...
Agree 100% with my learned colleague.
 
Sunbodi said:
I always wonder why adcoms on SDN waive off elicit drug IAs like weed as if it's nothing yet look down on individuals who have taken food from the dining room hall.
Click to expand...
Personal drug use is not a crime against a person or property. And we were all young and stupid once too. But stupidity can only be forgiven so far.

And we're not looking down on anybody; get this idea out of your head that somehow we're passing judgement in the Court of Life like some deities. We're not saying any applicant with an IA pr a transgression is a bad person....We determine fitness to be in our med schools, and touch our families when they're physicians.
 
OP, are we talking about a handful of soggy french fries, or are we talking about a quart of shrimp scampi -- with intent to sell?

Sorry. Somebody has to ask the hard-hitting questions, and it may as well be me.
 
Goro said:
Personal drug use is not a crime against a person or property. And we were all young and stupid once too. But stupidity can only be forgiven so far.

And we're not looking down on anybody; get this idea out of your head that somehow we're passing judgement in the Court of Life like some deities. We're not saying any applicant with an IA pr a transgression is a bad person....We determine fitness to be in our med schools, and touch our families when they're physicians.
Click to expand...
No, I think this all comes down to subjectivity. Young and stupid is a relative phrase.

I don't think taking extra food from a dining hall is stealing. This lack of hospitality and witchhunting hungry students is something I will only hear of in America.

On the other hand I do find a problem with drug IAs. I think it says a lot about a students character to be using illegal drugs while on school premises.

This is why I take the advice given on these minor IA threads with a grain of salt. Every adcom member is different, born with different values and beliefs. Whereas you might find drugs to be forgiven because all kids "are young and stupid", I guarantee there will be another who finds taking food from a dining hall as minor.
 
If I were an Adcom I'd definitely look down on drug use more than taking some extra food from the dining hall. If you got caught for even just pot on campus, I'm afraid that you might also have used cocaine, molly, etc. at other times but just never got caught. I don't think a similar extrapolation would be made from taking some extra food to hardcore theft.
 
Wow your school is so strict. At my school people leave the dining hall with plates and silverware, not even bothering with Tupper Ware and are fine lol. No one actually wants to take any food back though . Most of the employees are super chill though so I have no idea if it's actually against the rules or not.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 
LizzyM said:
If you do have to report this, be as explicit as possible. "I was eating dinner in the college cafeteria. I had more than I could eat on my tray and so I put half a sandwich and some grapes in a tupperware container with the intention of taking it with me to eat later. I did not realize that this was against the rules; I was stopped before I had even left the table in the cafeteria and written up for "theft". After a hearing, I was .... [state consequences]. I now know that taking leftovers from the cafeteria is strictly forbidden."

I do think that any adcom member with a heart (there are a few of us) will have pity on you and not hold this IA against you. It isn't as if you were trying to take someone's unattended electronics from a cafeteria table.
Click to expand...
I have a friend who once submitted an application that asked about any prior criminal charges. His explanation in its entirety was, "I was 12 and stupid." He got what he was applying for. If this goes as far as an IA -- which I now think is in question since the OP wasn't trying to leave the chow hall -- I think he should own it exactly as @LizzyM and @DokterMom suggested, and I certainly hope that adcoms would respond with the same degree of leniency that my friend received.

Sunbodi said:
Young and stupid is a relative phrase.
Click to expand...
I used to think the same thing when I was your age. Now get off my lawn. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Sunbodi said:
I don't think taking extra food from a dining hall is stealing.
Click to expand...
The point, though, is that the vendor of the food does think it's stealing. (Well, maybe not stealing, per se, but at least worth putting a poor undergrad through hell.) The problem is that the university owns both the dining facility and the applicant's collegiate file. (If anyone is tempted to go into the details of legal ownership of college records, don't. You know what I mean.) That means they can make and enforce those rules as aggressively as they want. Would officially reprimanding the OP make them a bunch of insufferable dickbags? Of course it would. But that's still their prerogative. If you go to their facility and eat their food and want them to grant you a degree, you have to play by their rules. That's just part of thinking defensively. Don't think, What do I think should happen to me if I do XYZ? Think, How badly could I get burned if I do XYZ? You need to be your own best advocate, and you need to protect yourself. An analogy, since I like those, is the students from my undergrad school who used to just walk out into the road south of campus without looking for cars (it's a road with one lane in each direction and a speed limit around 20 mph, but it does have pretty good traffic). Sure, the law said they had the right of way, but how would that help them if they became roadkill? It's better to assume the cars won't stop, and protect yourself.

Sunbodi said:
This lack of hospitality and witchhunting hungry students is something I will only hear of in America.
Click to expand...
Please don't try that tack. I don't think you, I, or almost anyone else around here has enough data to make that kind of assumption.

Sunbodi said:
This is why I take the advice given on these minor IA threads with a grain of salt. Every adcom member is different, born with different values and beliefs. Whereas you might find drugs to be forgiven because all kids "are young and stupid", I guarantee there will be another who finds taking food from a dining hall as minor.
Click to expand...
That's very true, but you still need to think defensively. It's better to assume that all of them are inflexible and avoid anything that could even be misconstrued as making you a risky candidate. You may be able to get leniency for youthful transgressions, but you'll never be faulted for just keeping your nose clean in the first place.
 
Last edited:
shakenramie said:
It was some smoked salmon. I had checked the menu earlier and saw that it would be served and since I hadn't had any in a while, I decided to take some out in a Tupperware, since I have seen others do this and did not know this was a rule. Apparently, some dining employee must have seen me put it into the Tupperware and then put the Tupperware into my backpack. I then continued eating and the dining employee came over and told me I was stealing, informed me of this rule, and then took down my university ID number so that the hearing officer could contact me later. He also took the Tupperware.

So I suppose there was "intent to steal", but I believe I did not technically break the rules, since the rule states that "everything must be consumed before you leave the dining area", and I had not left the dining area. However, the hearing officer contacted me later and said I had allegedly broken this rule in the student code: "Theft, unauthorized use, or unauthorized possession of property or services of another; or knowing possession of stolen property". So we'll see what happens at the hearing.

However, if this does result in disciplinary action, I will of course disclose this and explain the situation.
Click to expand...

OK, so you didn't break the rule. You didn't leave the dining area with the smoked salmon-filled Tupperware container.

While you were in the dining area, that smoked salmon was yours, not the "property of another" or "stolen property." You had the right to put the smoked salmon in a Tupperware container. You had the right to put the smoked salmon on your head and wear it as a hat. You had the right to tuck the smoked salmon into your socks. It was yours, as long as you didn't leave with it -- and you didn't.

It sounds like the administration has no case against you. If they take this any further, lawyer up.
 
LebronManning said:
If I were an Adcom I'd definitely look down on drug use more than taking some extra food from the dining hall. If you got caught for even just pot on campus, I'm afraid that you might also have used cocaine, molly, etc. at other times but just never got caught. I don't think a similar extrapolation would be made from taking some extra food to hardcore theft.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's that they think you're going to become a jewel thief or a bank robber. It's got much more to do with the applicant pool. Remember: you're going up against thousands of extremely well-qualified applicants. Any infraction at all has the potential to make you less attractive than someone who's just as qualified but has no black marks on their record. When five thousand people apply for a hundred-something spots, chances are there'll be someone who fits that description.

Legend has it that Michael DeBakey (Google him if you don't know that name) had his own elevator key at Methodist Hospital in Houston. He'd get on the elevator, kick everyone off, and then go wherever he was going. He also wore his white cowboy boots in the OR. He could get away with that stuff because he was that valuable -- not just to his own hospital, but to the medical profession in general. But the overwhelming majority of us, while still among the best and brightest, are not even close to that level and never will be. That means we all have to assume that the other guy/gal is just as good and well-qualified as we are, and avoid anything that could put us at a disadvantage. Like I said above, think defensively and protect yourself.
 
Last edited:
shakenramie said:
It was some smoked salmon. I had checked the menu earlier and saw that it would be served and since I hadn't had any in a while, I decided to take some out in a Tupperware, since I have seen others do this and did not know this was a rule. Apparently, some dining employee must have seen me put it into the Tupperware and then put the Tupperware into my backpack. I then continued eating and the dining employee came over and told me I was stealing, informed me of this rule, and then took down my university ID number so that the hearing officer could contact me later. He also took the Tupperware.

So I suppose there was "intent to steal", but I believe I did not technically break the rules, since the rule states that "everything must be consumed before you leave the dining area", and I had not left the dining area. However, the hearing officer contacted me later and said I had allegedly broken this rule in the student code: "Theft, unauthorized use, or unauthorized possession of property or services of another; or knowing possession of stolen property". So we'll see what happens at the hearing.

However, if this does result in disciplinary action, I will of course disclose this and explain the situation.
Click to expand...

Smoked salmon?? Already hidden in your backpack? That is a bit of a harder to swallow (pardon the pun) even if you had not yet left the building.

It does come down to adcoms asking "would we want a student here doing that behavior?"

If you heard that the White Coat ceremony was going to have smoked salmon, would you bring a tupperware in your pocket to take some home for later?

Why not see it on the menu, go to the cafeteria, enjoy the meal and call it a day?
 
shakenramie said:
It was some smoked salmon. I had checked the menu earlier and saw that it would be served and since I hadn't had any in a while, I decided to take some out in a Tupperware, since I have seen others do this and did not know this was a rule. Apparently, some dining employee must have seen me put it into the Tupperware and then put the Tupperware into my backpack. I then continued eating and the dining employee came over and told me I was stealing, informed me of this rule, and then took down my university ID number so that the hearing officer could contact me later. He also took the Tupperware.

So I suppose there was "intent to steal", but I believe I did not technically break the rules, since the rule states that "everything must be consumed before you leave the dining area", and I had not left the dining area. However, the hearing officer contacted me later and said I had allegedly broken this rule in the student code: "Theft, unauthorized use, or unauthorized possession of property or services of another; or knowing possession of stolen property". So we'll see what happens at the hearing.

However, if this does result in disciplinary action, I will of course disclose this and explain the situation.
Click to expand...
Honey,

If they try writing you up for an IA show them the exact wording of the rule and how you had yet to leave the dining hall.

If they insist on giving you an IA mention that you will plan on getting lawyers involved because you did not break the rule.

Do not be timid in your meeting and make sure you let them know through your body language that they will not write you up for an unjustified IA.

HomeSkool said:
Please don't try that tack. I don't think you, I, or almost anyone else around here has enough data to make that kind of assumption.
Click to expand...

Thank you for kindly putting me in my place.
 
You kids should remember this when you tow the talking points socialist presidential candidates spew at your protests for more safe spaces and food police. Kinda poetic IMO. You made your bed, now lay in it.
 
Osminog said:
OK, so you didn't break the rule. You didn't leave the dining area with the smoked salmon-filled Tupperware container.

While you were in the dining area, that smoked salmon was yours, not the "property of another" or "stolen property." You had the right to put the smoked salmon in a Tupperware container. You had the right to put the smoked salmon on your head and wear it as a hat. You had the right to tuck the smoked salmon into your socks. It was yours, as long as you didn't leave with it -- and you didn't.

It sounds like the administration has no case against you. If they take this any further, lawyer up.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that is not true at all. There are laws against this very thing. I will cite Georgia law because that is where I reside.

O.C.G.A. 16-4-1 Criminal Attempt
"A person commits the offense of criminal attempt when, with intent to commit a specific crime, he performs any act which constitutes a substantial step toward the commission of that crime."

Putting smoked salmon in a tupperware container (purposefully brought from outside the cafeteria into it) and into the backpack is a substantial step towards the commission of stealing the tupperware. No reasonable person will put smoked salmon into tupperware and into their backpack with the intent of not taking it outside of the dining hall.
 
freedoctor17 said:
Wow your school is so strict. At my school people leave the dining hall with plates and silverware, not even bothering with Tupper Ware and are fine lol. No one actually wants to take any food back though . Most of the employees are super chill though so I have no idea if it's actually against the rules or not.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
some schools have buffet style dining hall where you can eat everything you want while you are still inside. There are others where you get certain meal types and leave to eat. Then everything is yours.
 
MonkeyArrow said:
Yeah, that is not true at all. There are laws against this very thing. I will cite Georgia law because that is where I reside.

O.C.G.A. 16-4-1 Criminal Attempt
"A person commits the offense of criminal attempt when, with intent to commit a specific crime, he performs any act which constitutes a substantial step toward the commission of that crime."

Putting smoked salmon in a tupperware container (purposefully brought from outside the cafeteria into it) and into the backpack is a substantial step towards the commission of stealing the tupperware. No reasonable person will put smoked salmon into tupperware and into their backpack with the intent of not taking it outside of the dining hall.
Click to expand...
The problem is they have to prove intent.

OP can state he wanted to study in the dining hall and put the Tupperware in his backpack so that the food could stay fresh because he planned to study there for several hours. This is not outside of reason especially since it's finals period.
 
PashaOdesit said:
some schools have buffet style dining hall where you can eat everything you want while you are still inside. There are others where you get certain meal types and leave to eat. Then everything is yours.
Click to expand...

My school is buffet style which is the funny thing. Most people return the plates and stuff later but I'm pretty sure they're technically not supposed to leave the dining hall haha. There are a couple grab and go's where they give you packaged food but those are in throw away containers not reusable plates and metal cutlery lol
 
Goro said:
Personal drug use is not a crime against a person or property. And we were all young and stupid once too. But stupidity can only be forgiven so far.

And we're not looking down on anybody; get this idea out of your head that somehow we're passing judgement in the Court of Life like some deities. We're not saying any applicant with an IA pr a transgression is a bad person....We determine fitness to be in our med schools, and touch our families when they're physicians.
Click to expand...

I agree with @Sunbodi on this one to some extent.

Sometimes to gain access to illegal drugs (just the smoking type) or when drinking underage, those instances are telling that the person may have been in contact with sketchy people or doing sketchy things at the time of earning the I.A.

Also, a crime against a person is pretty bad, but a crime against property can be very minor. Vandalizing a tree on public property by writing the "peace symbol" is fairly petty.

I work at a hospital, and I know my hiring manager would take illicit drug use very seriously, so much so that they would be fired.

However, if there was rule forbidding taking food you paid for out of the hospital cafeteria, you'd probably just get HR to tell you to "not do that again".

My opinion.
 
Last edited:
Osminog said:
While you were in the dining area, that smoked salmon was yours, not the "property of another" or "stolen property." You had the right to put the smoked salmon in a Tupperware container. You had the right to put the smoked salmon on your head and wear it as a hat. You had the right to tuck the smoked salmon into your socks. It was yours, as long as you didn't leave with it -- and you didn't.

It sounds like the administration has no case against you. If they take this any further, lawyer up.
Click to expand...

Sunbodi said:
The problem is they have to prove intent.

OP can state he wanted to study in the dining hall and put the Tupperware in his backpack so that the food could stay fresh because he planned to study there for several hours. This is not outside of reason especially since it's finals period.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing: Schools don't have to "prove" anything. This isn't a criminal proceeding. Most Student conduct offices of undergraduate institutions these days have a "preponderance of evidence" policy when making conduct decisions. This means they don't have to prove you did something beyond a reasonable doubt like in criminal law, but rather just have to make the case that it was "more likely than not." In this case, it was certainly more likely than not that you were planning on taking the smoked salmon against school policy. The fact that you had not executed the plan yet may not matter because in all school policies there's usually another hidden clause that the intent or plan to do any policy violation is a violation in and of itself. There's no denying you will be found "responsible" for that policy violation. However, I think if you play your cards right (be cordial, apologetic), this will result in an official warning that you will NOT need to report on AMCAS.

IF this ends up being an institutional action (i.e. probation), then you need to get your parents and a lawyer involved. There's likely nothing you can do at that point because these schools have strong legal defenses of their own, but it's worth a try. Even in this case, it's not the end of the world. This is about as minor of an IA as it gets.
 
If I were you, I would go into this hearing and be as apologetic as possible letting them know that you didn't know it was a rule and that you will never do it again. If you go the route of trying to be technically right because you had not left the dining area, that could just make those at the hearing feel like you don't care about the rules and don't regret your actions and cause them to punish you more harshly than they would have otherwise. Whatever way you take it I wish you luck!
 
Lol @ people ITT making moral equivalencies between smoking weed (which automatically means you've been associated with "sketchy" people who have done harder drugs like cocaine or molly???) and "stealing" food. You're caught between a rock and a hard place OP, due to the language of your schools code of conduct, and the way these things usually progress (i.e., like another poster has said, they don't have to "prove" anything, but rather just show that it's more likely than not the case that you intended to "steal" the food).

Knowing university dining services, I think you're entitled to the food. However, be cordial, apologetic, yet understanding and firm in the meeting. Let them know that you understand that you perhaps appeared to be in violation of the code of conduct, but that in fact you never stole the food, and that you would appreciate if they could let you off with a warning. Sorry OP! Keep us updated!
 
HomeSkool said:
I don't think it's that they think you're going to become a jewel thief or a bank robber. It's got much more to do with the applicant pool. Remember: you're going up against thousands of extremely well-qualified applicants. Any infraction at all has the potential to make you less attractive than someone who's just as qualified but has no black marks on their record. When five thousand people apply for a hundred-something spots, chances are there'll be someone who fits that description.

Legend has it that Michael DeBakey (Google him if you don't know that name) had his own elevator key at Methodist Hospital in Houston. He'd get on the elevator, kick everyone off, and then go wherever he was going. He also wore his white cowboy boots in the OR. He could get away with that stuff because he was that valuable -- not just to his own hospital, but to the medical profession in general. But the overwhelming majority of us, while still among the best and brightest, are not even close to that level and never will be. That means we all have to assume that the other guy/gal is just as good and well-qualified as we are, and avoid anything that could put us at a disadvantage. Like I said above, think defensively and protect yourself.
Click to expand...

I agree and disagree at the same time. Obviously less black marks look better, and lessening any damage to the application is ideal, but this is why the overall applicant is still evaluated.

I get what you're saying when you say "another applicant like you with no blacks marks exist". But thats like saying to someone with a 500 MCAT "another applicant exists like you except with a higher MCAT". Yet, they still have the ability to get accepted at places that average 504 MCAT fro example, and the ADCOM may have passed up someone with a 505 MCAT to interview them. Evaluation of the whole applicant.

If your application proves that you are capable to complete medical school (MCAT, GPA) and that it appears you will make a great physician (volunteering, shadowing, hospital employment, etc.), then petty I.As like this should come across as pretty negligible, even within the competitive applicant pool. Its ideal not to, but with "time and positions of responsibility", they get less and less relevant.

Even if you dig through the forums, you will find many, many, many people with IAs that get accepted. Even people with 2 or 3 do fine.

These people aren't "extraordinary" either, some seem like a pretty average applicant.

If an I.A. as simple as "taking food from a cafeteria, that you somewhat already paid for (theft)", or "spray painting a peace symbol the sidewalk (vandalism)", or even "underage drinking", then if you don't get accepted to medical school, it probably was due to other stats.

HOWEVER, if the I.A. is something more serious than petty stuff, like stealing a laptop, plagiarizing, assault on a person, etc. then that's where I think applicants have to be on top of their game to get accepted.
 
begoood95 said:
Lol @ people ITT making moral equivalencies between smoking weed (which automatically means you've been associated with "sketchy" people who have done harder drugs like cocaine or molly???) and "stealing" food. You're caught between a rock and a hard place OP, due to the language of your schools code of conduct, and the way these things usually progress (i.e., like another poster has said, they don't have to "prove" anything, but rather just show that it's more likely than not the case that you intended to "steal" the food).

Knowing university dining services, I think you're entitled to the food. However, be cordial, apologetic, yet understanding and firm in the meeting. Let them know that you understand that you perhaps appeared to be in violation of the code of conduct, but that in fact you never stole the food, and that you would appreciate if they could let you off with a warning. Sorry OP! Keep us updated!
Click to expand...

I didn't say "automatically".

I said it was a possibility. A very real possibility. You have to get that stuff from somewhere, and the further you go into the rabbit hole, the more sketchy it gets. The guy you might be getting it from might not be sketchy (or maybe so...), but I can assure you that guy is talking to some sketchy people somewhere down the line.

Playing off "recreation drug use" as just another day in the park, while condemning "taking food from a cafeteria in which you already somewhat paid for" is crazy to me, personally (not saying the user I quoted specifically believes this).
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top