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[LeaveNoTrace]

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OP, I haven't been formally diagnosed with ASD (mainly just never had the opportunity to be psychologically evaluated, though maybe I'll change that soon), but I've had a variety of people (including my aunt, who's a special education professional) suspect that I meet the criteria, and my personal experiences tend to match up with those of friends who *have* been formally diagnosed with ASD. It can be so confusing for me because I don't know if growing up with prolonged periods of social isolation may have contributed to ASD-like behavior. ASD is also notoriously underdetected in girls/women, apparently. I'm also wondering if I should talk about this, but it seems tricky.

If you do decide to go down the diagnosis route: it'll make you ineligible for military service if you want to go down that road. To focus more on medical school applications: I'd only include it if you can show strong interpersonal skills. Did you have significant leadership? A lot of volunteer work with people different from you? Something that really shows you've overcome those social challenges, as mental-health diagnoses frequently give adcoms pause. In addition: what would you gain by having a diagnosis?

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Oooookay, now that is a concern for medical school application. You might consider seeking the advice of adcoms and perhaps legal counsel when considering how best to proceed. Fraudulent enlistment is no laughing matter. I hope you learned your lesson and good luck. You'll need to seriously ace everything from here on out: rock-solid ECs, employment in some virtuous position of responsibility, and stellar grades and MCAT. I think it's treated like a misdemeanor; if you're a felon, your goose is utterly cooked. You're doomed.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Do you have any records anywhere of fraudulent enlistment? Do you need to report that on AMCAS? I don't mean to alarm you, but if people find out and they believe you are concealing this from them, the consequences could be dire. You could be in Year 4 of medical school, have landed the residency of your choice...only to be booted out when you can smell the finish line because your medical school concluded that you lied about that fraudulent enlistment. It might be wise to seek legal counsel, even. Don't mess around with that sort of thing.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

This is way above my pay grade; you might ask @gonnif, @Goro, or any other adcom you might care to as a start. It is my understanding that medical schools do quite thorough background checks. Best of luck with everything.

 

[SalmonFisher]

Don't mention anything related to a mental illness on an application. There is little to be gained vs a lot to lose. It sounds like you may have other obstacles to overcome with dropping out of school and getting dqed from the military?

 

[tessellations]

Don't mention anything related to a mental illness on an application. There is little to be gained vs a lot to lose. It sounds like you may have other obstacles to overcome with dropping out of school and getting dqed from the military?

ASD is not a mental illness. It is a developmental disorder.

 

[SalmonFisher]

ASD is not a mental illness. It is a developmental disorder.

Don't include any disorders or diseases that could potentially make you look odd or unreliable. It is an unfortunate reality in almost every aspect of adult life.

 

[SalmonFisher]

Is it not disingenuous, if I withhold a major part of what makes me--me?

I agree with you and others that your perspective would add diversity to a medical school class and if you have managed to overcome some of the more difficult aspects of your disorder then it shouldn't matter. At the same time there is still intense discrimination against anyone with a condition that impacts their mind or personality. Talk about it after you have become successful.

 

[Moko]

Is it not disingenuous, if I withhold a major part of what makes me--me?

Unless specifically asked for, the contents of your application are at your discretion.

Only you can decide whether the benefits outweigh the risks. This advice applies for any activity/information that one may choose to include.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

If you choose not to disclose - which I would recommend if you are not obviously autistic and don’t have anything that would dispel adcoms’ doubts about your social and interpersonal skills - it won’t be considered lying or disingenuous. It is entirely a personal choice. Best wishes with everything.

 

[Goro]

Is it not disingenuous, if I withhold a major part of what makes me--me?

IF an Adcom has concerns that a major part of what makes you you will not make you a good medical student or doctor, you'll get rejected.

Read the last line in my sign lines.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

I think your motives for wanting to disclose are noble and high-minded; I hope that you find success. You need to really nail down that military-discharge issue, see if it will present any problems for you or if you can treat it as if you were never there. IF, after seeking appropriate advice that may include and probably should include legal counsel, you conclude that it can be treated like you were never in the military: don't mention it. Say that you were living with a friend or something of that nature if it comes up at all. 'Fraudulent enlistment' sounds like you knowingly and willfully concealed a health condition from the United States government in order to serve in the Marines: that raises huge questions about your integrity and could hurt you very badly come application time.

If you insist upon disclosing your autism diagnosis: make sure to accumulate extensive volunteering and leadership experience with people different from yourself. Keep acing your coursework and kill the MCAT. You are going to need to put the doubts that adcoms are going to have about your abilities soundly to bed, and you will probably need to be a better applicant than you otherwise would have needed to be. If your application is otherwise stellar and you've got lots of solid volunteering, leadership, and proof that your interpersonal skills are solid, it may be a positive.

EDIT: Get confirmation, preferably from a lawyer, about whether you need to disclose that fraudulent enlistment. This is no laughing matter.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah, I talked about it with some people in my first thread. My discharge is entry level separation, which means there wasn't enough time to adequately measure my conduct and performance. So it's uncharacterized, and there was no punitive measure.
When I was handed my DD-214, they told me it would be as if I never enlisted in the first place.

They did not give you correct information. An order of release is effectively your service never happening. An uncharacterized discharge is still a discharge, as you have a DD-214 that describes your service. You didn't complete training, but you were still on active duty for training. As far as the VA is concerned, an uncharacterized discharged is equivalent to an honorable discharge. If your DD-214 just says uncharacterized, when asked why you were discharged, all you just say that you were found to be ineligible to serve while in boot camp.

Did you lie about your diagnosis?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Here's the special additional information section of my DD-214:

23. TYPE OF SEPARATION ENTRY LEVEL SEPARATION
24. CHARACTER OF SERVICE (Included upgrades) UNCHARACTERIZED
26. SEPARATION CODE JDA1
27. REENTRY CODE RE-3P
28. NARRATIVE REASON FOR SEPARATION FRAUDULENT ENTRY

When at MEPS, the question I was asked (and I'm paraphrasing) was along the lines of "do you have a disorder or disease that would inhibit you from serving [effectively]?"

I said no, because I didn't feel as if my autism got in the way of being a Marine, but I understand that my interpretation of the question might not be valid.

Context might not be prevalent, but in basic, I made it to week 7, before another platoon mate (who I knew before shipping out) told the SDI about my autism. The stress of training made us not like each other for a bit, but I don't take it personally, he's a great guy honestly.

When I was discharged, the Navy psychologist said "you have failed to disclose a preexisting condition of ASD"

I don't want you to think I'm dancing around this, because I think it kinda looks like that, but I appreciate your help 🙂

So AMCAS asks you two questions. The first is is you have served or are you currently serving in the US military. You will have to check yes. It will then ask if you are a veteran, and you will check other. In the box, you write that you have an entry level separation.

The second question asks about the characterization of your discharge. Specifically, it asks if you have ever been discharged from the military. You have to answer yes. It will then ask if your discharge is honorable or under honorable conditions. You will have to check no, then write in the box that you have an an uncharacterized discharge. They want you to describe the details of your discharge, in which case you'll have to say that you were separated due to fraudulent entry unless you want to lie and say that you were separated for medical reasons. However, there is no statute that prohibits them from asking you about the characterization of your discharge, so you can't refuse to answer unless you don't want to get in anywhere.

You had to fill out a DD 2807-2, which includes a question asking if you've ever seen a psychiatrist, psychologist, counselor, or other professional for any reason. I'm guessing you checked "no" for that, which means you lied on a federal form. You're going to have to explain all this, and your ASD will probably come out if you're being honest. I think really the only thing that could mitigate it is explaining that you didn't feel your ASD would affect your ability to serve, and you made it almost to the end of training just fine until it was discovered through your talking with another recruit.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

This is a serious problem. Put at least five and maybe more like ten years between now and the time you apply. Your autism is going to come out and this is going to hurt you. Ideally, you’ll spend some time in some virtuous position of responsibility like teacher in an inner-city school or similar before you apply as well. It goes without saying that your grades, test scores, leadership, and other ECs must be absolutely stellar. It could be spun as something you did as an immature young man if you’re applying at 30 after lots of humanitarian work, leadership, research, and so forth - with a stellar MCAT and grades to boot. If you are lucky. @Goro: is the OP dead on arrival here, is his medical career torched beyond all hope of repair?

 

[SalmonFisher]

Forgive me, but I'm confused. I made a mistake. I big mistake, in which I will probably not come to realize in it's entirety just yet. 15 months later, I'm a sophomore with a 3.8 GPA, 500+ hours (and counting) of research, 50+ hours (and counting) of volunteering in an ER, I mentor children and adults with autism, I'm an EMT, I'm a volunteer firefighter, and I play rugby.

I just started taking major classes this fall, so I have at least 3.5 more years until I even consider applying.

That's a lot of time to grow as a person, especially considering how much I've grown since last July.

Bro get an attorney now and check with the language schools ask and what you have to report. Change your photo and any identifiers on here. Your goose is completely cooked if you have to disclose the fraudulent entry. Also why did you drop out of Penn State and how bad are those grades?

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Yeah, SalmonFisher’s advice is spot on. I don’t think that if you have to disclose your situation is as bad as that of a convicted felon...but it’s bad and raises serious, serious doubts about your integrity. Goro or any of the other adcoms can tell you more about whether you’re completely and irredeemably dead in the water and should consider Plan B.

 

[SalmonFisher]

Rising senior with ASD here who also happens to be in an autism research lab. I do research about individuals with disabilities and also volunteer with kids with special needs. In addition, I’m a college ambassador, was VP of our campus disability society, and am a peer mentor at my school for individuals with disabilities.

For the record, most of what people have written in this thread is incorrect as far as how ASD presents over the spectrum and the efficacy of different therapies, but I’m sure you know that. We are both perfect examples of how diverse the spectrum is; I’m constantly told by people that they wouldn’t have known about my ASD unless I tell them. In my case, because of my disability activism being known around school, I can’t really hide my diagnosis anyway. But I’m not worried about it.

I don’t apply until next year, so I can’t tell you anything for certain anymore than anyone else can. With that being said, I think it’s worth disclosing it when you can show that you’ve overcome the stereotypes of autism and are interested in working with such patients to improve their QOL in the future. And if you have other disabilities, you could actually focus on those as a whole, and integrate ASD as one more obstacle you’ve overcome. That’s what I plan to do, as I’ve had several health issues during my time as an undergrad.

Oh, and don’t be too hard on yourself. I get told that a lot too.

I dropped out because all I did was party. I was not mentally mature enough for a higher education. I have 7 classes (21 credits), 10 Ws, and a 3.15 from them.

I don't think that will be much of an issue for you then, especially with such a positive upward trend and that story can work well for your narrative. We really need to have an Adcom get in here to discuss your military situation.

 

[Moko]

When at MEPS, the question I was asked (and I'm paraphrasing) was along the lines of "do you have a disorder or disease that would inhibit you from serving [effectively]?" I said no, because I didn't feel as if my autism got in the way of being a Marine, but I understand that my interpretation of the question might not be valid.

Did you have any impairments from your (presumably high-functioning) ASD at that time? If the answer was 'no', then you answered this question honestly to the best of your ability.

However, as Matthew 9:35 pointed out, there were questions during the intake process in which your diagnosis of ASD should have been revealed (e.g under the "Learning, Psychiatric, and Behavioral" and "Supplemental Questions" sections). I suspect that these questions were likely the grounds for your dismissal. Being discharged for "fraudulent entry" looks terrible, and schools will want details. Even with context, this at best shows impaired judgment, and at worst dishonesty. This will not alleviate (and instead will likely confirm) concerns that adcoms may have with your diagnosis. Applicants who appear dishonest and unreliable do not get accepted, and I would have very serious reservations if I reviewed an application like this. It's unclear to me whether sufficient damage control can be done within the near future.

All applicants should have a 'plan B', especially so in your case. However, regardless of your admissions outcome in the future, I am glad that you have learned and grown from this incident. We are all human and make mistakes, and it's how we respond to these mistakes that define who we are. Unfortunately, admissions to medical school is often not as forgiving given how competitive the process is. It should also never serve as the measure for one's success and worth. Best of luck to you. Just my thoughts.

 

[wysdoc]

@ae7hyr Quoting one of your posts:
"When at MEPS, the question I was asked (and I'm paraphrasing) was along the lines of "do you have a disorder or disease that would inhibit you from serving [effectively]?"
I said no, because I didn't feel as if my autism got in the way of being a Marine, but I understand that my interpretation of the question might not be valid."

I can see how you were thinking and how you sincerely answered this question. Making it most of the way through boot camp shows that your assessment was pretty good, in fact. It seems the Marines did what they could so you could leave without too much negative impact, and may have understood that you had no intent to defraud them but maybe were naive.

and referring to whether to mention your time in the Marines at all, quoting:
"I've been told to not mention unless asked specifically about it. They've said, "for all an adcom knows you were just living with your friend the whole time."

But I think that's wrong, because a redacted truth still carries that deceptive intent. I'm just gonna be honest if it comes up."

Wow, that phrase in red shows your intellect and your ability to have insight.
You are right in saying that you are still learning and gaining insight and perspective.

I think you should probably disclose having autism in a med school application, going by the lesson you learned (with the military) of what can happen if you don't.
But maybe you don't have to make it the focus of every essay - just the ones about overcoming hardship & what you've learned.

Your main obstacle with disclosure will be that people who don't know much about academically able autistic people will have stereotypes.
The stereotype of having a strong sense of duty, honor, and honesty is probably what interested you in the Marines in the first place.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Yeah. Did you lie? Did you truthfully answer “yes” to the questions about having seen a psychologist, neurologist, etc.? If you did, is there a record of that somewhere? I don’t think your goose is truly cooked just yet but you have an uphill road to medical school. At least one physician is vaguely sympathetic. The rest of your app will need to be stellar and it will be a good idea to take a gap year or several before medical school to put more time between you and your military misadventure. I sincerely wish you the best. @gonnif @Goro @gyngyn @Faha @LizzyM @Catalystik any thoughts?

 

[Goro]

This is a serious problem. Put at least five and maybe more like ten years between now and the time you apply. Your autism is going to come out and this is going to hurt you. Ideally, you’ll spend some time in some virtuous position of responsibility like teacher in an inner-city school or similar before you apply as well. It goes without saying that your grades, test scores, leadership, and other ECs must be absolutely stellar. It could be spun as something you did as an immature young man if you’re applying at 30 after lots of humanitarian work, leadership, research, and so forth - with a stellar MCAT and grades to boot. If you are lucky. @Goro: is the OP dead on arrival here, is his medical career torched beyond all hope of repair?

I'm getting a bad vibe from this and it will all depend upon the answers to the military service questions. BUt if it comes out that the OP lied about getting into the service, then that's probably an app killer.

And before some of you start crowing about "Just lie..who will know?" please restrain your ignorance about the Admissions process.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Yeah. OP: IF you indeed lied about seeing a psychologist in order to get into the military, that's a pretty large black mark against you. You want this pretty bad, though, so it is probably worth at least one shot at this. You will need to be stellar otherwise; you'll need to show that the you of five or ten years from now is not the you of then. You should have several years in some virtuous position of responsibility before applying. Maybe take on a leadership role in your town's fire department. Become a flight medic. Continue the autism volunteering and mentoring. If you are both a stellar applicant and very lucky, you might gain admission to medical school. I've heard tales of convicted felons (!) being given serious consideration by adcoms, though there were extenuating circumstances and he was ultimately rejected. Your goose is, if not cooked, at least severely burned; with great luck, you might manage to pull a Lazarus and resurrect your app. Best wishes to you.

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

I'm getting a bad vibe from this and it will all depend upon the answers to the military service questions. BUt if it comes out that the OP lied about getting into the service, then that's probably an app killer.

And before some of you start crowing about "Just lie..who will know?" please restrain your ignorance about the Admissions process.

Just curious why it would be an app killer. I'd say almost 25% of the people I worked with in the military lied about something when enlisting . Whether it was having depression, previous injuries, or tinnitus. It's also pretty generally recommended on here to never bring up mental health so there is already some acceptable level of concealing the truth.

If he lied about having crohn's then I'd be worried about him thinking that could actually work.

Granted it may have been the type of unit I was at that made this common

 

[Goro]

Just curious why it would be an app killer. I'd say almost 25% of the people I worked with in the military lied about something when enlisting . Whether it was having depression, previous injuries, or tinnitus. It's also pretty generally recommended on here to never bring up mental health so there is already some acceptable level of concealing the truth.

If he lied about having crohn's then I'd be worried about him thinking that could actually work.

Granted it may have been the type of unit I was at that made this common

Medicine is a profession that values honesty.

 

[Blueprint Med School]

Hey, I was diagnosed at 4 by a CHOP Neurologist. I was planning on writing about my experiences as apart of the secondary essays regarding adversity.

Question is, does it matter? Is it URM? I know some people think of rain man, while others think of good doctor, but what do ADCOMs think?

Aspergers ER MD here, I did not mention it in my interview. My best advice is to 'not' mention it unless it fills in other portions of your resume or application. If you mentor or volunteer or research in ASD, then by golly you have yourself a prize-winning story of giving back that you can talk about. Otherwise, talking about it to talk about it is a higher-risk maneuver. Just one persons opinion.

Hope this helps,

David D, MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

 

[Moko]

Just curious why it would be an app killer. I'd say almost 25% of the people I worked with in the military lied about something when enlisting . Whether it was having depression, previous injuries, or tinnitus. It's also pretty generally recommended on here to never bring up mental health so there is already some acceptable level of concealing the truth.

If he lied about having crohn's then I'd be worried about him thinking that could actually work.

Granted it may have been the type of unit I was at that made this common

Just because something is done frequently doesn't make it acceptable. Lying and/or cheating in any setting are considered serious offenses

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

Just because something is done frequently doesn't make it acceptable. Lying and/or cheating in any setting are considered serious offenses

Agreed it isnt necessarily acceptable.. Though you could argue that if mental health issues would cause an application to be rejected, then everyone should disclose any they have because it obviously is an issue from an admissions committee's perspective (so it is an issue with someone's ability to become a doctor). Yet multiple adcoms on here will tell a person to not do so. A medical school may not directly ask if you have any but is it fine to purposely conceal things you know would sink your application. There just seems to be some fuzzy line as far as counts as lying that ultimately relies on a paper trail.

 

[Moko]

Agreed it isnt necessarily acceptable.. Though you could argue that if mental health issues would cause an application to be rejected, then everyone should disclose any they have because it obviously is an issue from an admissions committee's perspective (so it is an issue with someone's ability to become a doctor). Yet multiple adcoms on here will tell a person to not do so. A medical school may not directly ask if you have any but is it fine to purposely conceal things you know would sink your application. There just seems to be some fuzzy line as far as counts as lying that ultimately relies on a paper trail.

The difference here is that information appears to have been falsified to the military (whether intentional or not). Disclosure of any medical or mental health issues are not required for the application to medical school, so not volunteering out that information is not considered lying.

Having a mental health disorder is also not considered automatically disqualifying for admissions (though it does raise extra scrutiny), so ultimately these issues need to be handled very thoughtfully and tactfully. For most applicants, the potential benefits are not worth the risks, hence the advice that is commonly given here.

Had the application asked these "have you ever" questions and someone was caught falsifying the information, then they would similarly be seen in a very negative light. In many states, licensure applications will ask "have you ever" questions for mental health disorders. If the board ever found out that someone lied on that application, there would likely be repercussions.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Best of luck with everything. @Goro, unfortunately the OP's medical career appears to be in deep stasis. Although you haven't made the official pronouncement of death: "OP, I cannot sugarcoat this. Your medical career is over. Time for Plan B."

 

[SalmonFisher]

Again OP talk to an attorney and determine the exact questions being asked of you. If you can avoid disclosing then you might be fine. If you do disclose it probably will cause big issues, but its not like you were lying for purely personal gain (financial, better grades etc), but to serve your country which may be viewed in a better light if portrayed in a certain narrative.

 

[gyngyn]

Again OP talk to an attorney and determine the exact questions being asked of you. If you can avoid disclosing then you might be fine. If you do disclose it probably will cause big issues, but its not like you were lying for purely personal gain (financial, better grades etc), but to serve your country which may be viewed in a better light if portrayed in a certain narrative.

The AMCAS application has questions specifically related to military enlistment (and discharge) that must be answered.