.

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
While I'm sure you might get some bashing about the ND and eastern medicine in general, I think its completely okay to be interested in the stuff, but please note the quality of education and knowledge base you receive in medical school is vastly superior to what you would receive elsewhere. I would also think that you would be better suited to treating and helping people with a proper residency.

If you're going for the shaman-y vibe. You could look into DO as well, which if you were to place on a spectrum is probably a hair more towards the Eastern side of the spectrum than MDs. The DO I shadowed reminded me of a medicine man, who utilized Western medicine and manipulations often, but would still also mention Eastern modalities (herbs and stuff) as potential options while being clear that this may not work for everyone, and that there is limited evidence.
 
I guess I also thought it was important to mention this, so you can at least get an understanding of the issues that exist within Naturopathy.

Britt Hermes is someone who graduated from a naturopathic program and has since left the field because of its flaws with respect to education (pseudoscience), patient care, and ability to produce a competent clinician.

She has spoken about it a lot, and you may find this blog post interesting.
 
Integrative medicine can be your buzzword. You'll find MDs interested in acupuncture, nutrition, and mindfulness, for starters. It is totally ok to express these interests as long as you couch it in the right terms. Just for an easy example, we had someone come in to do auricular acupuncture (the NADA protocol) on us in med school.
 
First, read this: Naturopathic Diaries

This blog is authored by a Bastyr ND grad. It gives a very interesting inside look into Bastyr and naturopathy. EDIT: I see someone else up thread has also referred you to Naturopathic Diaries. Seriously, please read through this blog.

Medicine is an evidence-based, scientific field, so you will need to demonstrate that you want to be part of an evidence-based, scientific field if you apply MD. Naturopathy is neither scientific nor evidence-based, so you should really downplay your interest in this type of practice if you want to be a physician.

I live in a pretty crunchy part of the country, and there’s a lot of acupuncturists, essential oil shops, NDs etc. In shadowing and volunteering, I’ve met a lot of patients who are really into “complementary healing modalities”. Their physicians, on the other hand, basically just tolerate it. Some are pretty hostile to alternative “medicine”, especially if their patients are doing things like drinking green juice and getting vitamin shots instead of undergoing chemotherapy for their cancer.

One doctor I shadowed told me about an “integrative” MD he knows who shills all the essential oils, massage therapy, acupuncture and so on. The integrative doctor knows it’s all bunk, openly admits it’s all bunk, but does it for the sweet $$$ it brings in. The doctor I shadowed views this (and all alternative medicine) as “ripping off sick people” - and that’s the prevailing view in the MD world, frankly.

TL;DR: Your interest in medicine and naturopathy are not very compatible, and you should tread very carefully if you’re set on applying MD.
 
Last edited:
This is a pretty easy choice. Do you want to be in a position to help people or would you like your career to ge centered around selling lies to those who are either desperate or too uneducated to know the difference? The choice is pretty clear to me but to each their own. After all the world has room for all kinds, even snakeoil salesmen.


Also I thought I might add that Im Somewhat concerned that you attribute your weight loss to “mind body connection” or whatever you called it. Last time I checked I can’t will my abdomen into forming a 6 pack but if you can, then please teach me..all of this cardio is starting to suck


Edit: you can believe all this bs if you want but you’d do well to keep it off of your app and not mention it in interviews if you apply md/do and for the love of god when asked why med, don’t say you were enticed by naturopathy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I recently shadowed a family medicine MD who was definitely more alternative compared to other folks I’ve worked with. I was somewhat put off by it, largely due to the above criticisms, but this woman’s patients LOVE HER. Her philosophy is to meet her patients where they are at in terms of their beliefs, and give both Western and alternative options. She said that she focused mostly on Western medicine during training, but has gradually integrated other options into her practice over 20 years. Obviously the concerns raised by others are legitimate, but there’s certainly a market for integrative medicine. Good luck.
 
NatureMed17 said:
Read "The Gabriel Method." I did his methodology of visualization and lost 40lbs without any change in my diet.
Click to expand...

All the visualization in the world cannot defy the laws of thermodynamics. You lost weight because you were eating fewer calories than you were expending. Full stop.

This is a perfect example of the kind of things you should NOT be talking about if you’re serious about pursuing medicine.
 
NatureMed17 said:
Read "The Gabriel Method." I did his methodology of visualization and lost 40lbs without any change in my diet.
Click to expand...

wow. :smack:

contrary to what others have suggested like “downplay the homeopathic med etc” in your application, I think for the sake of your potential future patients, you should stay true to yourself and make sure your application reflects your actual views in their entirety.. I’m befuddled at some of your logic.. or “logic.” Wow
 
@NatureMed17 This is a really enlightening thread into how alternative posting styles can sometimes open one's mind to how Pavlovian other users get when they see an account from 2016 posting for the first time in 2019 about how they gained inner dharma at the age of 12 by merging together the complexities of east and west. White rice and angel hair pasta. Crips and Bloods. Batman v Superman.
 
Thank you all who put in the time to reply to this thread so far.
I have read the Naturopathic Diaries, and I would like to add that she left the field because of a non-FDA approved medication that was being used in practice. She filed a lawsuit against naturopaths and naturopathic schooling, not the actual paradigm of alternative medicine. If you look in her "contact me," she even states, "message me for alternative medicine counseling." Though, yes, I agree with the fact that ND schools do not offer adequate training relative to MD programs, I do not think that she was utterly refuting all of botanical medicine and alternative therapies. I honestly think it would be ignorant to do so. Put in words of analogy, it's like the subject of chemistry... someone may not like a professor or how chemistry is being taught or used, but that doesn't mean that chemistry is false or "bunk." Also, look at Georgetown, a top medical school; they have recently added mind-body medicine into their curriculum (Mind Body Medicine Program - School of Medicine), and I think this is noteworthy. Perhaps if naturopathic schools were taught with the same rigor as medical schools, we would see a difference in the field of naturopathy.
Even in pharmacology classes, you learn how there are parallelisms between nature and medicine. For example, Salicin found in willow bark is structurally similar to acetylsalicylic acid and, in the 1800s, willow was used in the same way that Aspirin is used today; in fact, research of willow is often credited as inaugurating the development of aspirin (Medicinal potential of willow: A chemical perspective of aspirin discovery). So, while synthetic drug synthesis may create more potent medication, it is an uneducated practice to state that plants -- which have been used for years and years and years -- lack any medical capability.
So, my question was never Naturopathy OR Allopathy but instead, was it okay to fuse the two in an application and future medical practice. Planning on going through medical school, I would still be choosing "medicine," obviously. However, I again do not think it is "logical" (as I was coined as not being) to completely segregate modern medicine and traditional therapy. Just look at how other countries, like China, are merging to two and how it has become successful (like with the use of acupuncture in cardiology).
 
It's important for physicians to be somewhat knowledgeable about these alternative practices (note that I don't use the term "alternative medicine") as some of our patients will pursue these regardless of the available evidence. Being knowledgeable allows for evidence-based counseling, better patient care (understanding potential interactions with their prescribed medications, for example), potentially better patient rapport and adherence to therapies that have actually been shown to be efficacious. In my opinion, it's okay to express a skeptical interest in studying these alternative practices (you know, for science), but I would have serious reservations against anyone who would attempt to equate these alternative practices to actual diagnostic or therapeutic modalities.
 
@Moko I think that there is an extreme Western bias within Western medicine to side with Western medications because we feel like we are "very cutting edge" just because we package our medications into round consumable pills and tablets. For instance, medications like Lipitor are known to contribute to countless cases of rhabdomyolysis in individuals who require statin management. However, in ancient China in 300 BC when they were required to forage off the land, there were no reported lab values indicative for hyperlipidemia or cholesterol. What we do know is that they consumed healthy amounts of 紅麴米 that they grew off the land with their own sweat instead of running into a McDonald's and buying off the dollar menu. Did you ever review a clinical case from 300 B.C. of a Confucian with elevated Cr/diminished GFR due to ATN secondary to rhabdo? I haven't. Obviously there is much to gain from the East that we have yet to incorporate from the West. Perhaps when we stop inducing our patients into V. Fib with very synthetic medications like digoxin then we can realize that the beauties of the East can work within a Western medical model.
 
NatureMed17 said:
Thank you all who put in the time to reply to this thread so far.
I have read the Naturopathic Diaries, and I would like to add that she left the field because of a non-FDA approved medication that was being used in practice. She filed a lawsuit against naturopaths and naturopathic schooling, not the actual paradigm of alternative medicine. If you look in her "contact me," she even states, "message me for alternative medicine counseling." Though, yes, I agree with the fact that ND schools do not offer adequate training relative to MD programs, I do not think that she was utterly refuting all of botanical medicine and alternative therapies. I honestly think it would be ignorant to do so. Put in words of analogy, it's like the subject of chemistry... someone may not like a professor or how chemistry is being taught or used, but that doesn't mean that chemistry is false or "bunk." Also, look at Georgetown, a top medical school; they have recently added mind-body medicine into their curriculum (Mind Body Medicine Program - School of Medicine), and I think this is noteworthy. Perhaps if naturopathic schools were taught with the same rigor as medical schools, we would see a difference in the field of naturopathy.
Even in pharmacology classes, you learn how there are parallelisms between nature and medicine. For example, Salicin found in willow bark is structurally similar to acetylsalicylic acid and, in the 1800s, willow was used in the same way that Aspirin is used today; in fact, research of willow is often credited as inaugurating the development of aspirin (Medicinal potential of willow: A chemical perspective of aspirin discovery). So, while synthetic drug synthesis may create more potent medication, it is an uneducated practice to state that plants -- which have been used for years and years and years -- lack any medical capability.
So, my question was never Naturopathy OR Allopathy but instead, was it okay to fuse the two in an application and future medical practice. Planning on going through medical school, I would still be choosing "medicine," obviously. However, I again do not think it is "logical" (as I was coined as not being) to completely segregate modern medicine and traditional therapy. Just look at how other countries, like China, are merging to two and how it has become successful (like with the use of acupuncture in cardiology).
Click to expand...

Britt Hermes’ contact page on Naturopathic Diaries states the following:

Please email me at [email protected].

I welcome all correspondences, but please try to be concise. I receive many emails from naturopathic students and practitioners asking for advice or seeking answers to questions on topics about which I have already written. I cannot respond to all emails. I cannot, and will not, provide medical advice. Readers are encouraged to consult their physicians (MD or DO) regarding specific health problems.

I am happy to aid political efforts against naturopathic licensing and expanded scope of practice legislation.

I have a unique perspective that can be valuable to a variety of media audiences.

Where did you read that Britt Hermes still provides naturopathic counseling?

Anyway, I don’t agree with your assessment that Britt Hermes is still amenable to herbal healing practices. She has pretty thoroughly disavowed almost every aspect of her former occupation. If you can link to where she’s stated otherwise, I’d be happy to be proven wrong.

To address your final question, do not talk about naturopathy on an MD application. If you wish to integrate alternative approaches into your future practice, then you do you I guess, but remember that you’ve also committed an oath to do no harm (so for the love of God, please don’t get involved in any cancer quackery).
 
My question, though: is it smart to focus my clinical/research/shadowing experiences on Eastern medicine? For example, I am currently shadowing a clinical acupuncturist, and I am considering pursuing a summer internship in herbalism (Read more about the Herbaculture Internship Program at Herb Pharm). Furthermore, I have eyes on a Master's Degree in Physiology, concentrating on Alternative and Complementary Medicine(https://cam.georgetown.edu/academics) for my gap year.

- I am skeptical that an admissions committee would be impressed by the research experiences in this internship if its goals are not to produce an academic paper. I would highly recommend getting involved in research at a major academic institution or research hospital to demonstrate an understanding of rigorous academic research.
- Shadowing an acupuncturist is fine, but that wouldn't contribute much to an application for medical school. You shouldn't count shadowing an acupuncturist as physician shadowing but learning about alternative practices in the medical field that patients may seek.
- I'm not sure how a Master's degree would support your application to medical school. If you are interested in pursuing medicine, I would recommend completing the MD or DO before pursuing this masters program.
 
JanetSnakehole said:
If you can link to where she’s stated otherwise
Click to expand...
It is stated in her personal website (BrittMarieHermes.org), "Contact me via the links below for interviews, speaking engagements, or consulting about alternative medicine or my research."

And on that same page, she does admit that there are issues in the rising field of naturopathy. And I do agree (in terms of education and Naturopaths not receiving enough training to be responsible for patient care); however, there are flaws in every system and, again, I do not think that she thinks ALL natural medicine is a hoax. Homeopathic medicine? Yes, I can see how dilution and the use of the "essence" of a botanical can be fallacious. But to completely refute the medicinal properties of chemicals found in plants, as well as the power of the mind, is not what I think she is doing.
 
NatureMed17 said:
It is stated in her personal website (BrittMarieHermes.org), "Contact me via the links below for interviews, speaking engagements, or consulting about alternative medicine or my research."

And on that same page, she does admit that there are issues in the rising field of naturopathy. And I do agree (in terms of education and Naturopaths not receiving enough training to be responsible for patient care); however, there are flaws in every system and, again, I do not think that she thinks ALL natural medicine is a hoax. Homeopathic medicine? Yes, I can see how dilution and the use of the "essence" of a botanical can be fallacious. But to completely refute the medicinal properties of chemicals found in plants, as well as the power of the mind, is not what I think she is doing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my read on that is not “give me a ring so we can chat about the great things we both love about naturopathy!” or “contact me on Facebook for a consultation from a naturopathic approach!” It’s more “I’m happy to provide a quote for an article you’re writing about malpractice in naturopathy.”

Do you have links to anywhere in her blog where she has shown positivity toward alternative medicine? Because I haven’t seen anything of the sort.

And sure, some plants contain chemical compounds also found in medicine - any organic chemistry student writing up their aspirin synthesis lab report can tell you that. I just disagree that there’s any utility in using plants in lieu of, or even in addition to, medicine. But that’s just me (and most MDs).
 
OP, you've already got your answer. If you were going to argue about the answers you got, then why did you bother asking the question? It seems like you came here with the intention of hopefully getting some kind of validation, and when it wasn't forthcoming, you decided to try to force it.

This thread has long since run its course, and the only person who could get any possible value out of it (OP) isn't open to doing so. I don't really see a point in continuing it.
 
JanetSnakehole said:
I just disagree that there’s any utility in using plants in lieu of, or even in addition to, medicine. But that’s just me (and most MDs).
Click to expand...
I'm nitpicking here, but this depends on the situation, dietary interventions may be sufficient (or should be used as an adjunct to medications) for some conditions (e g high fiber / meditarrean diets for hyperlipidemia, hypertension, diabetes etc). Of course this is not what's being discussed though when one brings up naturopathic practices.
 
Moko said:
I'm nitpicking here, but this depends on the situation, dietary interventions may be sufficient (or should be used as an adjunct to medications) for some conditions (e g high fiber / meditarrean diets for some with hyperlipidemia, hypertension, diabetes etc). Of course this is not what's being discussed though when one brings up naturopathic practices.
Click to expand...

Oh, I am in absolute agreement about diet (in fact, I think dietary adjustments should be the first approach considered for many conditions - but I understand that patient compliance with dietary adjustments is a thornier issue). But plants? Nah (unless it’s “eat more of them.”)

I will say that I once worked with a nutritionist who got her degree (in nutrition, not homeopathy or whatever) at Bastyr and she was fantastic at her job.

I think that’s kind of the insidious thing about alternate medicine: the “a broken clock is still right twice a day” phenomenon. Alternative medicine has its elements that are also utilized, with success, in medicine (diet, meditation/mindfulness, exercise, etc.) To the unsophisticated patient, it gives naturopathy a sheen of credibility, because they’ve also heard similar advice from their PCP. But then they get hooked on the feel good sunshine from their ND, and that’s when really scary things can happen down the line (treating cancer with baking soda and Vitamin C injections, for example).
 
NatureMed17 said:
For someone who is also "pre-medical," I think humility would go a long way. We are both trying to achieve our dreams here, and to undermine my capability of being a physician just because of one of my interests is what is truly "befuddling."
As for you, I really do hope you achieve all you are wanting and I am sure you will become an amazing doctor one day. But just for the record, I do not just willy-nilly accept anything I hear as fact. I understand the importance of evidence and logic. For example, before advising that someone take or apply cayenne pepper for their joint pain, I would first have a thorough understanding as to how capsaicin (a secondary compound of cayenne pepper) causes the "local stores of substance P (and possibly other chemical pain messengers) [to] become depleted, and the nerve fibers in that area transmit fewer pain signals"(Ask the doctor: How does hot pepper cream work to relieve pain? - Harvard Health). And I would look further in the notion that "Several studies have reported that capsaicin is effective in relief and prevention of migraine headaches, improves digestion, helps to prevent heart disease, and lowers blood cholesterol and blood pressure levels. The findings reported in these studies may have implications for the pathophysiology and possible therapy of neuroinflammatory disorders" (SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals).

I wouldn't convulse in a shamanistic vision and say... "oh, the wind told me you should take this," despite what some would think.
Click to expand...
If you push the naturopathic bunk without evidence you are a bad physician. Full stop

If you push some natural stuff that has real western grade evidence behind it, you aren’t actually pushing naturopathic or “alternative” stuff anymore, that’s just medicine.

If you mention the former on your app you will almost definitely not be a doctor
 
As another has mentioned, there's a lot of bunk practices which are taught in naturopathic institutions, and those which are not can be considered a part of mainstream medicine. If a therapy/intervention shows that it works, it works and would be considered/reccomended in the Western model. Selling some hocus pocus magical cures using technobabble is not only selfish but also negligent and harmful to patients. The latter is what comprises a large part of naturopathic education.

While many may be arguing that there may be issues arising from limited/low quality research on Eastern methodologies, much of what has been studied hasn't necessarily been the most impressive, yet is still promoted by the quacks. However, some ancient knowledge or cultural ideas may very well provide promising research avenues for future therapies.
 
NatureMed17 said:
I am aspiring for a career in holistic dermatology
Click to expand...

Me too! Holi$stic dermatology ftw.

Naturopathy is a joke. All of it. Full stop. If data comes out on anything that proves it's efficacious it ceases to be "alternative medicine" and just becomes "medicine." It's the same as chapman's points and cranial.

I'm not even going to get into you thinking you mind powered your weight away.
 
im a US trained MD practicing as a internal med hospitalist, i'm also fairly familiar with traditional chinese medicine, being that i grew up there.
While i obviously believe in, and practice western medicine, i also believe there are many things in alternative medicine that can work.

if you have the academic capability to get into and complete a MD education in US. do it.
afterwards, you can still choose to learn things about alternative medicine on the side should u continue to have the interest.

points to consider:

1. MD's in US make alot more money than alternative medicine.
-this isn't the reason people give to adcoms, and maybe some wide eyed premeds don't even think they care or want to admit. but when you are in ur 30's and 40's and u need to pay off that grad school debt, mortgage, and feed your family, and buy 200$ disneyland tickets for ur kids... u better be glad about that MD salary.

2. MD education is scientific evidence based. this is not perfect - as good scientific evidence take time to obtain. i.e. we are constantly discovering new things about medicine that change our practice, some of the things we believe in today that are standard of care may be proven to be harmful practices in the future. However, scientific evidence based medicine is the best thing we have at the moment.

3. While i believe there are many things from alternative medicine that work, but there is no unified science as much of it is experience based. there is also hardly a standardized education, as such quality of practitioners vary greatly.

so in conclusion: no really, just see #1
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top