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frenchyn

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...I'm realizing that clinical medicine is essentially regurgitating memorized guidelines to your patients. There's not much critical thinking and innovation clinically...ah where did you get this...? Lol...‍♀️ We are talking about treating humans...not a machine.
 
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deleted1038938

If youre not in it to help future patients, give your seat to someone else.
Except this person isn't giving up a seat...they're regretting their decision because of how the first two years of medical education are.
I had an engineering background, and it seemed like the easier route and it seemed like I had made an awful mistake.
Yes, the first two years are regurgitation. The third year not so much. Except for the exam/shelf stress, the clinical portion was pretty enjoyable.
Get that MD!
And yes, I did have a friend who took a year off to work in biotech b/w third and fourth year. Now she's a derm.
 
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MiamiBoyy

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Except this person isn't giving up a seat...they're regretting their decision because of how the first two years of medical education are.
I had an engineering background, and it seemed like the easier route and it seemed like I had made an awful mistake.
Yes, the first two years are regurgitation. The third year not so much. Except for the exam/shelf stress, the clinical portion was pretty enjoyable.
Get that MD!
And yes, I did have a friend who took a year off to work in biotech b/w third and fourth year. Now she's a derm.

Ok, seat's taken, let's say a spot in a residency program.

An easier route to what exactly? To go into biotech? That makes no sense.
 

frenchyn

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I do want to help patients. That's my primary goal, but I also want to be intellectually stimulated and use my strength which is quantitative problem solving. I'm just realizing there're other ways to do it. Are you saying the people who created the davinci surgical robot and brought it to
...That's my primary goal, but I also want to be intellectually stimulated and use my strength which is quantitative problem solving...dude/girl...just curious r u saying doctors are not intellectually stimulated?
 
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ArteryStudyPainting

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So you want research?

My peer said that while at Hopkins, we learned that research is awesome. His PI said the following: the PI was upset that his pts would go blind and all he could do is a surgery that doesn't matter, or change anything. So, all he could do was effectively nothing. So that doctor moved into research to find solutions to the problems that killed him in practice. Maybe that's ideal for you.

Also, guidelines yes. Regurgitate yes. But, it's the way you get to treat someone. Kindness. Compassion. Even with regurgitating guidelines, etc., you get to matter in both that way and in personal ways.
 
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ArteryStudyPainting

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Solving a math problem is as simple as, regurgitate the formula in the correct order in order to find x? Just like medicine, isn't it just a quest for to solve for x? Unless we're talking unsolved, untested materials. In which case, that's research bb!
 
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_doctor_

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Solving a math problem is as simple as, regurgitate the formula in the correct order in order to find x? Just like medicine, isn't it just a quest for to solve for x? Unless we're talking unsolved, untested materials. In which case, that's research bb!

My issue with research in medicine is that it's mostly creating knowledge ... knowledge that can be used to create solutions later on, and this is really slow paced. I'm not discounting the importance; it's just not as fun as solution building. I want to create the solutions if that makes sense. For instance, take this problem. A hospital has this many beds, this much funding, and we need to re-allocate for some new restraint. How do we do this? Or this one. We're a biotech startup with 4 drugs in development. We have limited resources, so let's analyze the early-stage clinical results to see which of our drugs is going to have the biggest impact, and let's work to bring that to market as quickly as possible. These types of problems seem to interest me a lot. They boil down to applied math problems, and the impact of the solutions can save several lives.
 
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ArteryStudyPainting

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I know of an MD who is a JD, and runs the hospital (and isn't just a talking head and is actually good at their job). And then here and there goes to be a good leader and takes shifts in their department.

I personally would "finish" everything, go to residency, etc. And then decide to move to admin. Now, you're in a position where you get to bug-out with minimal debt though.

That's the big boy. So, bug out, save money, start again (which is possible!) or stay in, move up, and gain debt for a while, all to maybe do what we were sayin'.
 

frenchyn

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I'm just saying I don't find clinical medicine as intellectually stimulating as solving a math problem. You run tests, assess symptoms, create a differential, confirm a diagnosis, then give drugs based on what the NEJM tells you to give for that diagnosis. Evidence-based medicine just seems like a massive flowchart you follow.
Omg you are either full of yourself or don’t really understand the real medicine. Sure you can be a mediocre doctor and regurgitate the guidelines on every single patient treating them the same. But to be a good or best doctor you really need to critically think and at times, deviate from the guideline...guideline may not always the best thing.

From your posts I saw at least two statements that alerted me you don’t seem to understand how a “good” medicine works or you are really full of yourself to think you are smarter than a lot of doctors. Anyway, different directions mentioned are all intellectually stimulated. It depends on which areas you want to be intellectually stimulated lol. You are the one who have to make this decision.
 
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deleted1038938

Doing a real engineering PhD is much more difficult than MD + residency, and the post degree job prospects aren't significantly different once you get to the management level. Also I see significant value in the MD, because it's so patient focused. If you're developing a solution and it isn't patient focused, it's not a worthwhile solution imo.
Disagree with this statement. Have friends and family who are engineering phds and professors.
 
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cookiegrub

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you seem smart, maybe look up Radiation Oncology. These people are so interested in stats/math/physics that you might just love it. No one said that you have to love every specialty in medicine, you might just be the type to like only one specialty and otherwise not do medicine at all.
 
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EmilKraepelin55

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You could always do an IM or FM residency and go into a fellowship to study Medical Informatics. Here is a little column from the AMA about this field: Clinical informatics: What medical students, residents should know

Honestly, if you are interested in numbers and deriving solutions from clinical data then this might be your thing. I say FM/IM because it sounds like you wouldn’t want to work in clinical medicine for too long.
 
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eteshoe

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I think it makes sense for you to see if you could take a 1-yr leave of absence and try out pharma or biotech (internship or co-op sort of thing). Maybe you'll really enjoy it and leave med school (w/ minimal debt) or you may find it's not what you thought and then you have a safety net. Unfortunately the disadvantage of not taking a gap year is that it's all theoretical to you so far.

- I say all this as a former engineer who worked in industry before coming back to school.
 
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_doctor_

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I think it makes sense for you to see if you could take a 1-yr leave of absence and try out pharma or biotech (internship or co-op sort of thing). Maybe you'll really enjoy it and leave med school (w/ minimal debt) or you may find it's not what you thought and then you have a safety net. Unfortunately the disadvantage of not taking a gap year is that it's all theoretical to you so far.

- I say all this as a former engineer who worked in industry before coming back to school.
Why'd you decide to leave industry for med school?
 
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If I bug out, there's a huge risk of not being able to move up right? And I doubt med schools will accept me again if I quit once.
If you drop you out, your medical career is over.

You have as much understanding of what clinical medicine is like as a high schooler. Did you learn nothing when you shadowed?????

You want to be challenged? Go into Heme/Onc or Rheumatology.
 
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ACSurgeon

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I'm just saying I don't find clinical medicine as intellectually stimulating as solving a math problem. You run tests, assess symptoms, create a differential, confirm a diagnosis, then give drugs based on what the NEJM tells you to give for that diagnosis. Evidence-based medicine just seems like a massive flowchart you follow.

multiple choice exams are like a massive flowchart you follow.

Real patients usually don’t read the book. Diagnoses are often unclear and confounded by things that don’t fit. In 2020, most patients will have multiple medical problems. Hardly straight forward to reach the diagnosis or develop a treatment plan.

you’re asking if you should finish Med school or not but then complain when people make the case for finishing Med school. What is it exactly you want from us?

finishing medical training opens door. Career wise and money wise. Dropping out of med school spares you the trauma of medical education/training but offers a much less guaranteed path. Obviously the fanciest engineers/tech/administrators are not physicians. So if you’re so confident you can be one of the best in whatever tech field you leave medicine for, then power to you. Otherwise, you have a winning lottery ticket now, but it pays in installments starting 7+ years from now.
 
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HKSZYU

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I have a math background and worked in industry before going back to school, so I totally get where you're coming from. They both involve complex thinking, but the type of thinking is different.

I've seen people take various routes to address this. I have a colleague who worked in industry prior to school, went to med school, realized industry suit him better, then dropped out after M1. He got an engineering masters, and is now working on cool healthcare data science projects with a renowned company. He seems very happy.

Another friend worked in consulting prior to med school, did a biotech consulting internship after M1 year, stayed in touch with the company and ended up taking an LOA to work for them for a year. He ended up completing his MD, and is currently in residency, but probably won't do much patient care afterwards.

I think it comes down to if you want patient care to be part of your career moving forward. If you do, even in small part, then I'd stay in your MD program. Once you've completed residency, an MD degree is quite flexible, and you can likely craft a career that includes biotech, engineering, and patient care. I'd probably recommend this route because, since you didn't take gap years and don't have real work experience in the areas that you've stated you're interested in. It's quite probably that you don't really know for certain if you'd prefer industry.

That said, maybe you do know. And if that's the case, leaving as an MS1, before you have mountains of debt, is helpful. If you know you're planning on going into biotech, healthcare admin, or even consulting, those doors will be open to you as an MD, but most of them are also open to you without it. It doesn't make sense to go through 7+ years of school and training to do a job that you could do with your undergrad degree or a 2-year MS or MBA.
 
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mcatstudent1

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I kind of felt like that. Hated all of medical school. Just matched radiology with lots of potential for AI/machine learning. Also I tell all students to wait until the clinical years before deciding and try the electives that complement your background-rad onc, radiology, CT surgery, ortho,etc.
 
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mcatstudent1

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I kind of felt like that. Hated all of medical school. Just matched radiology with lots of potential for AI/machine learning. Also I tell all students to wait until the clinical years before deciding and try the electives that complement your background-rad onc, radiology, CT surgery, ortho,etc.

If dead set in getting out see if you can land job from med school and make your loans work. I feel like residency wastes years of life so why choose a long one if you are not going to use it. Research is hard due to ever shrinking budgets, some fields have more industry funding but even now that’s going to decrease for the next few years.
 

cookiegrub

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I wouldn't recommend leaving medical school now that you worked so hard to get in. Try to learn how to complete your journey but also find your mold. Another resource if you aren't interested in Radiation Oncology is to try Mckinsey business fellowship for medical students. It is a great excuse to take a detour after your 2nd or 3rd year (I recommend to do it after 3rd year unless they have a preference which I don't remember). As a physician you will be a commodity and the economy isn't looking so hot so jumping the ship may not necessarily land you the ideal career right away. I hope that you can decipher between the rash anecdotal postings over the more realistic and least harmful methods to making the misery that is medical school be limiting.
 
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Fatalis

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I do want to help patients. That's my primary goal, but I also want to be intellectually stimulated and use my strength which is quantitative problem solving. I'm just realizing there're other ways to do it. Are you saying the people who created the davinci surgical robot and brought it to market isn't helping patients?
You don’t need to justify yourself; you don’t like clinical medicine, hey that is your choice but stick with it, you will have a ton of doors open for you when you get your MD.
At every point of medical school everyone thinks “should I quit” for various reasons but we all slug it out for the promise we make to ourself; if it’s to help future patients or get my MD to work for a company, we stay.
If it makes you feel any better i hated Ms3 the most; the feeling of paying to work only to shadow/ be an able body with essentially no real purpose (has to show up but if I was willing and able to work made no difference) killed me each day. I am a work horse type of person; put me to work or send me home. But I stuck with it because I knew in residency I’d be working with a purpose and that was motivation. Case and point OP, stay, get your MD and doors will open.
 
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altblue

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Thank you all for your input. Given all these suggestions, I think I'll ride out medical school, and decide about residency when I have a few more years of experience. At the very least, I get an MD, get the opportunity to experience an amazing profession that so many people dream of being a part of, and realize it just isn't for me. Best case scenario, I find that there is someplace within medicine that I truly love, and I go down that path. I'll likely end somewhere in the middle where I can use my medical expertise for some positive purpose, just don't know where that is yet. There's obviously the cost of staying in med school, but based on how many people said they didn't like preclinical, it would not be smart to jump ship just yet.
I'm glad to hear this!

I feel you about the initial difficulty/adjustment period, however. Calc/chemistry/physics had come easily to me in undergrad while bio and biochem were more of a struggle, so med school was unsurprisingly an adjustment. I'm also more extroverted than not, so grinding out obtuse lectures and making flashcards by myself hasn't been my thing. But it's what I do to make to the next level and actually begin communicating with patients and learning about clinical problems. It won't always be like this, and it'll get better.
 

ExcitatorySynapse

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Honestly, I feel you OP. MS1 has been an incessant grind where I realized that the best way to do well was just to memorize every single thing. There's no time to sit and deeply think about things. Moreover, the whole culture of medicine is hierarchical and conservative (in the sense of resistance to improvement) to a fault where if you dare speak up about anything while still a trainee, you'll get bashed. I am not excited about it. My undergrad classes required far more critical thinking and I like the purity of mathematics. But I'm here, and so I'll keep going.

I also attended a target UG and I know people from my alma mater's med school that have gone into consulting. I think it's good to network with alumni; while the recruiting process will differ, they may have insight. Venture capital is another place I know med grads can find a place in.
 
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longhaul3

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It sounds like you have an idealistic view of the healthcare industry. Problem solving and resource allocation is one thing, but it will all be worshipping at the altar of the almighty dollar. You are not going to be solving practical problems regarding delivery of care, etc. You are going to be finding places to cut costs, cut corners, and cut jobs, busting out hospitals and practices for profit like Tony Soprano and making the people who do the actual work waste time with online training modules.

I say stay the course. If you're truly unfulfilled, go into a lifestyle specialty and scratch your problem-solving itch by playing chess on the beach.

P.S. What is a target school? Is it not a target relative to one's academic credentials, like we used to talk about "reach" and "safety" schools? Don't think I've heard that term before but from reading this thread I gather it's widely used.
 
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slowthai

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P.S. What is a target school? Is it not a target relative to one's academic credentials, like we used to talk about "reach" and "safety" schools? Don't think I've heard that term before but from reading this thread I gather it's widely used.

It's the schools where MBB (McKinsey, Bain, BCG) go to recruit. You have a significantly higher chance of getting into these firms if you go to a target school. Most of them are top schools if I recall correctly.
 
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slowthai

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You are not going to be solving practical problems regarding delivery of care, etc. You are going to be finding places to cut costs, cut corners, and cut jobs, busting out hospitals and practices for profit like Tony Soprano and making the people who do the actual work waste time with online training modules.

So OPs basically going to become the enemy: admin. Don't do it OP
 
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