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[sousa7]

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[KnightDoc]

Hi everyone, I was hoping to get some advice on a tricky situation I am in.

So I have been applying to research jobs for months, and I finally got accepted to one at my home university. I accepted the job, however, the Lab PI is taking a long time to get me the paperwork to officially accept the offer. The start date for the job also keeps getting pushed back (Now in October). This lab deals with mostly pre-clinical models with no patient interaction.

I received an interview today for another lab job, and this lab is a clinical lab. The chance of getting published is much higher in my opinion as well. The lab is in the speciality I want to go into in the future, however, the PI wants me to provide him contact information for references from my previous research experiences.

My problem is that my main research reference knows the PI for the lab I already accepted the job offer for. I am afraid that if I provide contact information for this new job interview, my research reference will tell my job that I am looking for other jobs and I will lose both opportunities.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Advice? How about acting ethically? You already accepted a job (after searching for months) that you haven't started yet. You shouldn't be interviewing, and should be outed if you do so.

What advice do you want? You want to use the pre-clinical job as an insurance policy? How fair is that to the PI? You don't like pre-clinical being pushed back and having no patient interaction? Tell the PI you've had second thoughts, withdraw, and pursue your preferred opportunity.

In case you really need someone to say it, here it is -- you can't have your cake and eat it too. Your concerns are justified, and the odds are decent you will f*** yourself if you screw around with these two PIs. It's a small world. If you act like this, it's going to catch up to you. You honestly should know better without having to post about this. How would you answer a CASPer question on the topic?

 

[lull]

my research reference will tell my job that I am looking for other jobs and I will lose both opportunities

Wait I'm confused.. why would you list your new job as a reference when you never even started it.

 

[KnightDoc]

Wait I'm confused.. why would you list your new job as a reference when you never even started it.

He won't. He's saying his reference is buddies with the new PI, and would certainly tell him that OP is using him as a reference for another lab job. He's hoping we'll tell him not to worry, because the reference would never tell.

Again, this isn't the issue. The issue is the whole thing is unethical, and will certainly come back to bite him, so he shouldn't be trying to strategize around it. He accepted a job. He should either stop looking, or release it. Not try to hold it in reserve, because it's not exactly what he wants, while he pursues other opportunities in the same small circle, using the same set of references. This is so obvious it really doesn't warrant a SDN thread!!!

 

[EpilepticRat]

Hi everyone, I was hoping to get some advice on a tricky situation I am in.

So I have been applying to research jobs for months, and I finally got accepted to one at my home university. I accepted the job, however, the Lab PI is taking a long time to get me the paperwork to officially accept the offer. The start date for the job also keeps getting pushed back (Now in October). This lab deals with mostly pre-clinical models with no patient interaction.

I received an interview today for another lab job, and this lab is a clinical lab. The chance of getting published is much higher in my opinion as well. The lab is in the speciality I want to go into in the future, however, the PI wants me to provide him contact information for references from my previous research experiences.

My problem is that my main research reference knows the PI for the lab I already accepted the job offer for. I am afraid that if I provide contact information for this new job interview, my research reference will tell my job that I am looking for other jobs and I will lose both opportunities.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The question here really lies more with you. Which research are you more interested in? Could you speak passionately about either research focus? Do you have previous experience that might make you productive in either lab? How is your relationship with the current PI? Things to consider.

Also, make sure your stats are good before worrying about publications. If you have a 3.3 and a 502, a publication isn't going to be what rescues that boat for MD schools. (I don't know your app of course, but something to consider). That being said, if you're aiming for research powerhouses it'll play greatly to your favor if you can show productivity alongside strong GPA and MCAT. Take all this with a grain of salt as I am only just applying this cycle, but these are the general sentiments I've seen on this forum.

Lastly, one in the hand and all that.

 

[sousa7]

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[lull]

Again, this isn't the issue. The issue is the whole thing is unethical, and will certainly come back to bite him, so he shouldn't be trying to strategize around it. He accepted a job. He should either stop looking, or release it. Not try to hold it in reserve, because it's not exactly what he wants, while he pursues other opportunities in the same small circle, using the same set of references. This is so obvious it really doesn't warrant a SDN thread!!!

Well, I had this drafted before it got locked:
Yeah, it's very bad judgment, but you can't be surprised seeing this kind of question on here with the obsession with publications. In the lab that I worked at, one of the researchers who had been there for many years and was basically the coordinator of the lab, he knew how to run everything, he was managing several projects and was the primary contact for the lab...up and left for a better research position a couple buildings down lol, didn't even finish his experiments or anything. If OP asked a question like this, he's clearly not going to care about screwing PIs over so I'm not going to talk him out of digging a hole for himself.

 

[KnightDoc]

I understand where you are coming from, but I do not believe this to be as unethical as you make it seem. I was supposed to start this job weeks ago, and it has now been pushed back even further. I also have not been given any paperwork for accepting the job even though I was supposed to have this already. I would rather keep my options open and not waste my gap year than sit around waiting for a job that might not ever happen.

I would argue that lying about a time committment to a gap year employer is more unethical than my situation, and that is a common practice among pre-meds and even encouraged on this forum.

And, to be honest, I don't think it's AS unethical as I made it seem either! But, do degrees of unethical really matter? It's your career, you need to be able to live with yourself, and you also need to remember what goes around comes around.

Of course you would like to keep your options open, and of course it sucks that the PI is jerking you around. Guess what? Med schools are also going to jerk you around, not give you answers when you want them, not allow you to hold WL spots when you want to, etc., etc. They have the power, and you don't.

For months you were desperate, and were thrilled when someone gave you an opportunity. Now you're annoyed that it hasn't started yet and isn't exactly what you want. And, a better opportunity has presented itself. But, it's a small world, and you have to risk both opportunities to maybe be able to grab the one you want! What to do???

If doing the right thing for the sake of doing the right isn't enough for you, your choices are obvious. Choice #1 -- Roll the dice, apply for the other job, and see what happens. Choice #2 -- Quit the first job because it isn't really what you want, it hasn't started yet, and you have another opportunity you want to pursue. Choice #3 -- Forget the second job because you just accepted another one, and what goes around comes around.

If you are hoping someone will tell you not to worry because your reference will never dime you out, we can't know that because we don't know him, but, of course, it's possible. The choice is entirely yours. The situation, as you describe it, is "messy" because you don't want to lie in the bed you have made, but, no, nothing you do here will be a capital offense. Best case, you get the second job, whether or not you quit the first one. Worst case, you piss everyone off, end up with nothing, and leave a bad taste in some people's mouths that you will hopefully never have to deal with again.

Yes, people lie to gap year employers all the time. It is also unethical. People justify it because it's a dog eat dog world, and life is not a CASPer exam, not because it's the right thing to do. They get away with because the lie is exposed on the back end of the experience, as they are about to enter med school, so the consequences, if any, are far in the future. You are screwing around with PIs on the front end of a gap year. Very different timing, with very different potential consequences. Good luck!!

 

[Rogue42]

Advice? How about acting ethically? You already accepted a job (after searching for months) that you haven't started yet. You shouldn't be interviewing, and should be outed if you do so.

What advice do you want? You want to use the pre-clinical job as an insurance policy? How fair is that to the PI? You don't like pre-clinical being pushed back and having no patient interaction? Tell the PI you've had second thoughts, withdraw, and pursue your preferred opportunity.

In case you really need someone to say it, here it is -- you can't have your cake and eat it too. Your concerns are justified, and the odds are decent you will f*** yourself if you screw around with these two PIs. It's a small world. If you act like this, it's going to catch up to you. You honestly should know better without having to post about this. How would you answer a CASPer question on the topic?

I usually agree with you on topics, but I am going to disagree here.

You're not hired for any job until all the paperwork is done and completed. So, I do not think it is unethical for him to interview for the position. It sounds like he applied to multiple jobs, and one just interviewed him faster than the other. People looking for jobs have the right to interview at all of them, and pick the best one. Just like employers have the right to interview all applicants and select the best one. I, personally, have had jobs tell me that I was "hired," and would call me later to do the paperwork, just for them to call me and apologize as they already filled the position or the position was being "exterminated." Nothing is official until it IS official.

His only issue is the reference, right? But the thing is, he could have listed that reference contact months ago - and just now being interviewed for it. If that was the case, would it be ethical for the PI of his "new" job to drop him? No, I don't think so. When you use someone as a reference, they usually agree to it, and understand that they may be contacted by all the people that you applied to jobs for. So, his reference shouldn't be out trying to undermine him when he gets a call anyways.

So, I say all that to say this; if your reference that you used is the direct reason that you were 'hired' for this new job, then it would look bad on your reference. But it doesn't seem like that is the case, exactly. Usually, you use references from people you know and trust, and OP, if that is the case, then if I were you, I would take this concern to your reference. Simply say, "Hey, I applied to x,y,z jobs. I was given an interview at y which I know you know that PI, and I was much more recently given an interview at z. I would like to go on the z interview, just to see what that job entails and if it would work better for me. But I don't want to put you in a bad place with your colleague."

Again, if it is someone you know and trust, then you should be able to have that conversation.

 

[KnightDoc]

I usually agree with you on topics, but I am going to disagree here.

You're not hired for any job until all the paperwork is done and completed. So, I do not think it is unethical for him to interview for the position. It sounds like he applied to multiple jobs, and one just interviewed him faster than the other. People looking for jobs have the right to interview at all of them, and pick the best one. Just like employers have the right to interview all applicants and select the best one. I, personally, have had jobs tell me that I was "hired," and would call me later to do the paperwork, just for them to call me and apologize as they already filled the position or the position was being "exterminated." Nothing is official until it IS official.

His only issue is the reference, right? But the thing is, he could have listed that reference contact months ago - and just now being interviewed for it. If that was the case, would it be ethical for the PI of his "new" job to drop him? No, I don't think so. When you use someone as a reference, they usually agree to it, and understand that they may be contacted by all the people that you applied to jobs for. So, his reference shouldn't be out trying to undermine him when he gets a call anyways.

So, I say all that to say this; if your reference that you used is the direct reason that you were 'hired' for this new job, then it would look bad on your reference. But it doesn't seem like that is the case, exactly. Usually, you use references from people you know and trust, and OP, if that is the case, then if I were you, I would take this concern to your reference. Simply say, "Hey, I applied to x,y,z jobs. I was given an interview at y which I know you know that PI, and I was much more recently given an interview at z. I would like to go on the z interview, just to see what that job entails and if it would work better for me. But I don't want to put you in a bad place with your colleague."

Again, if it is someone you know and trust, then you should be able to have that conversation.

I don't disagree with you. You are right about employers screwing over employees all the time. That is also unethical. But, the reality is, we do not all have equal power, and two wrongs don't make a right. OP accepted a job. Not "official" because paperwork wasn't completed? Okay, if you and he say so. Do you think that means the PI doesn't think his search for an assistant is over? So, fine, screw him over because he might do the same to you. Except, you want to go to med school, and you need a job, and he doesn't!

Yes, everyone has the right to act unethically. That doesn't make it right!!! The obvious point you are either missing or glossing over is this -- the reference he needs is apparently friends with the PI he wants to screw over. Exactly how do you propose the conversation with that reference go? Does this change your analysis or advice? I laid out the three choices OP has. The safest one is to go with the bird in the hand. The others involve risk, that might or might not work out.

Regardless, while you are correct about things being "official" and how the real world works, I'd love to see the day anyone giving advice like this would write an honest essay on this topic as part of a med school application and expect to receive an acceptance. That's the difference between a CASPer exam and what schools are trying to learn about us before giving us the keys to the kingdom.

We all know what the correct answer is, yet we all justify deviating from it when the correct answer is going to carry a cost in the real world. Screw over the PI because I come first, and he would do the same to me. That might be true, but it is, by definition, unethical. In a situation where you lack power and leverage, it could carry unexpected costs. When you do have power and leverage, it just reveals what kind of person you are. OP needs to weigh them against the benefits, and then make a decision. Not life or death, but very well could impact the next year of his life plus his med school applications.

 

[Rogue42]

I don't disagree with you. You are right about employers screwing over employees all the time. That is also unethical. But, the reality is, we do not all have equal power, and two wrongs don't make a right. OP accepted a job. Not "official" because paperwork wasn't completed? Okay, if you and he say so. Do you think that means the PI doesn't think his search for an assistant is over? So, fine, screw him over because he might do the same to you. Except, you want to go to med school, and you need a job, and he doesn't!

Yes, everyone has the right to act unethically. That doesn't make it right!!! The obvious point you are either missing or glossing over is this -- the reference he needs is apparently friends with the PI he wants to screw over. Exactly how do you propose the conversation with that reference go? Does this change your analysis or advice? I laid out the three choices OP has. The safest one is to go with the bird in the hand. The others involve risk, that might or might not work out.

Regardless, while you are correct about things being "official" and how the real world works, I'd love to see the day anyone giving advice like this would write an honest essay on this topic as part of a med school application and expect to receive an acceptance. That's the difference between a CASPer exam and what schools are trying to learn about us before giving us the keys to the kingdom.

We all know what the correct answer is, yet we all justify deviating from it when the correct answer is going to carry a cost in the real world. Screw over the PI because I come first, and he would do the same to me. That might be true, but it is, by definition, unethical. In a situation where you lack power and leverage, it could carry unexpected costs. When you do have power and leverage, it just reveals what kind of person you are. OP needs to weigh them against the benefits, and then make a decision. Not life or death, but very well could impact the next year of his life plus his med school applications.

If you think interviewing for jobs is unethical, then there is nothing left here for us to discuss. Even if I have I job, and I want ANOTHER job, I can interview for it. That doesn’t make me unethical in any means.

Again, I don’t see this situation as “screwing” anyone over. Sometimes, things just don’t work out. Like said, you usually ask for a reference from someone you know and trust - who agrees to be a reference knowing that multitudes of people will contact them. I honestly don’t think his reference would even know he has “accepted” this job unless his reference is the direct reason for the job, because references usually aren’t involved in the hiring process other than answering the question “hey, good dude?” “Yeah, solid I recommend him.”

Again, he is in the professional world - not medical school. Like stated, I think if he wants to interview, that’s acceptable. But I think if he’s concerned about the other PI, he should simply have that adult-world conversation with his reference. I don’t think that makes one morally or ethically incorrect.

I also don’t think his new job would”fire” him for interviewing somewhere else - that would be equally as unethical as what you’re saying the OP would be doing. In which, I personally wouldn’t want to work for.

But, keeping a guaranteed job is always better than chasing a job (but interviewing doesn’t mean he has to “quit” his unofficial job).

 

[KnightDoc]

If you think interviewing for jobs is unethical, then there is nothing left here for us to discuss. Even if I have I job, and I want ANOTHER job, I can interview for it. That doesn’t make me unethical in any means.

Again, I don’t see this situation as “screwing” anyone over. Sometimes, things just don’t work out. Like said, you usually ask for a reference from someone you know and trust - who agrees to be a reference knowing that multitudes of people will contact them. I honestly don’t think his reference would even know he has “accepted” this job unless his reference is the direct reason for the job, because references usually aren’t involved in the hiring process other than answering the question “hey, good dude?” “Yeah, solid I recommend him.”

Again, he is in the professional world - not medical school. Like stated, I think if he wants to interview, that’s acceptable. But I think if he’s concerned about the other PI, he should simply have that adult-world conversation with his reference. I don’t think that makes one morally or ethically incorrect.

I also don’t think his new job would”fire” him for interviewing somewhere else - that would be equally as unethical as what you’re saying the OP would be doing. In which, I personally wouldn’t want to work for.

But, keeping a guaranteed job is always better than chasing a job (but interviewing doesn’t mean he has to “quit” his unofficial job).

Fair enough!! I think accepting a job and still interview is what is unethical. You don't, and reasonable people can disagree. If you are correct, OP would be doing nothing wrong and has nothing to worry about. If not, maybe he interviews himself right out of the job he already has. His call, his risk.

I think if the doesn't like the wait, and doesn't like the pre-clinical aspect of the job, he should level with the PI and go from there. So, OP is doing nothing wrong by interviewing, and the reference is doing nothing wrong by having his friends' back. Everybody is acting in their own self-interest, and now OP is out on the street. Great!!

The thing you're missing about the reference (unless I am reading too much into the OP), is that he is friends with the PI. He'll know he hired the OP, and he's know that OP is interviewing, and it's a near certainty he'll ask his friend what happened with OP. And, OP can't exactly approach him and ask him not to do that.

 

[la flame]

I honestly don't think it's that unethical. You need a job to help pay bills, get food, etc ( I don't even know if you have other people to provide for). Fortunately, real world life is not a CASPER exam. I have dealt with something similar this year. My employer that I recently got hired into requires a 2 year minimum commitment but little do they know I have applied to medical school and if accepted, I don't think I will be able to finish that commitment.

But hey, I got bills to pay and need a roof over my head. You need to focus on what is best for you.

 

[lumya]

Yeah, I gotta agree that it's fine to interview for another position even if you have a job offer. It looks like you were supposed to start weeks ago, but people can't just sit around twiddling their thumbs if they're not getting paid. You should probably have a conversation with your current employer though. If the position just can't seem to start up or is going to be delayed longer, it's not unethical for you to pursue other options.