;

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
One of the suggestions I have seen here is to start preparing for gap year activities and to strengthen your app for the next cycle. If you happen to get an A this cycle - great. If not, you at least will have a Plan B
 
You should always be doing what you can to improve your app for reapplication until you get that acceptance. Waiting until thanksgiving or whatever to keep preparing yourself is just wasted time.

The general rule is no II by thanksgiving means you should start to assume you’re going to have to reapply, but I think it’s just safer and better expectation management to act as though you’re going to have to reapply from the get go so that you’re not rushing to do something to make your app better.
 
That's good stuff. Keep doing that. But also, what was your school list like? Did you apply too top heavy/reach schools? Did you apply to schools that have low yield for OOS? There are a lot of factors that could be contributing to not having any IIs right now. Your GPA and MCAT are certainly not too low for MD, so I'm thinking something else might be going on (not a good school list, poor secondaries, some kind of red flag).

In a normal year, you can apply pretty late to DO schools and still get some love. Your stats are certainly fine for DO.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like you have the right idea. Your scores are fine. GPA on the lower side, but a solid MCAT.

Im not sure about the DO timeline, but your grades are extremely competitive for DO. Maybe @Goro can provide some intel on if it is too late to apply.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't think you should beat yourself up too much over this. The W didn't kill you. The one thing you haven't disclosed is your ECs. I'll bet they were okay, but less than spectacular, no? Other than that, you might just be in the wrong place at the wrong time from the wrong ethnic group.

As you probably know, apps are way up this year. What you might not know is that FL has one of the lowest matriculation rates in the country. And, of course, ORMs have the highest median stats. Put all of this together, and you have an applicant with at or slightly below median stats from a hyper competitive state in a hyper competitive year. It's not over yet, but if you are a reapplicant, the problem is the intense competition, and the easiest fixes are ECs and essays.

Your school list isn't terrible as long as you hit all the FL schools. The problem is you are OOS everywhere else, and that puts you at an inherent disadvantage. You might have to look at DO next cycle, unless it's not to late for that this year and it's something you want to pursue now, before this cycle has had a chance to fully play out. Just keep in mind that many schools as far behind due to the surge in applications, so this cycle is still far from over. Good luck!!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Academic scores-- LizzyM score Right at the 50th percentile for ORM matriculants

Extracurriculars --- How good are these ?

Letters of reference --- Any red flags from any of your reference letter writers ?

School list--- Looks very appropriate for MD applications with your metrics. Definitely add DO. you could apply to a few DO schools this year, there is no bias against DO reapplicants when you do so next year. You have nothing to lose, except the application time and money.

Improving your application : ? Essay writing skills. Run your personal statement by a few people you trust, and see if you can improvise. Definitely continue volunteering and the clinical research assistant job.

I am quite surprised you didn't get an interview for any of the Florida state public schools. Have you checked all the school portals to make sure there is nothing missing in your application?

Dont give up heart. You just have been unlucky so far, end of the day it is a crap shoot, and good applicants can get sidelined. You still have time to get Interview invitations this year.
 
Essay writing is such a huge part of medical school admissions. I would suggest if you do not receive any II that you rewrite everything! (I would anyway). Frankly, I had worse stats than you and got 6 MD II because I put blood sweat and tears into those damn essays.

At my school, for example, many readers will look at the stats at the END after reading through the primary and secondary. I would imagine this is true for many mission fit schools.
 
Talldoctor96 said:
Essay writing is such a huge part of medical school admissions. I would suggest if you do not receive any II that you rewrite everything! (I would anyway). Frankly, I had worse stats than you and got 6 MD II because I put blood sweat and tears into those damn essays.

At my school, for example, many readers will look at the stats at the END after reading through the primary and secondary. I would imagine this is true for many mission fit schools.
Click to expand...
Hmm, I wonder if other schools read secondaries before looking at your stats? It seems hard to believe. With thousands and thousands of apps, and the MCAT being such an easy metric to sort on and serving as an equalizer for applicants from different schools, would most really spend all that labor reading secondary essays first ?
 
Putkernerinthehall said:
Hmm, I wonder if other schools read secondaries before looking at your stats? It seems hard to believe. With thousands and thousands of apps, and the MCAT being such an easy metric to sort on and serving as an equalizer for applicants from different schools, would most really spend all that labor reading secondary essays first ?
Click to expand...
This^^^^. Maybe a better question for @Talldoctor96 would be whether he knows whether or not apps are subject to a stat screen before apps even get to a reader? If so, then it is already established that an application clears a minimum bar necessary for admission, and maybe it makes sense for readers to look at stats at the end so as not to be influenced by them when forming an opinion based on the rest of the application.
 
Putkernerinthehall said:
Hmm, I wonder if other schools read secondaries before looking at your stats? It seems hard to believe. With thousands and thousands of apps, and the MCAT being such an easy metric to sort on and serving as an equalizer for applicants from different schools, would most really spend all that labor reading secondary essays first ?
Click to expand...
Every screener and Adcom member will have their own priority as to what to look at. There is no master schema or template.

I look at age first. Then major, degree, schools attended, stats, courses taken and grades, ECs, LORs and essays last.
 
Goro said:
I base an interview question on it. No, I'm not sharing.
Click to expand...

Goro said:
Every screener and Adcom member will have their own priority as to what to look at. There is no master schema or template.

I look at age first. Then major, degree, schools attended, stats, courses taken and grades, ECs, LORs and essays last.
Click to expand...

can you elaborate ? Is this in the order of importance of the important metrics, age>major>degree or just a general statement ?

Have not seen age and UG major, be a prominent decision making tool for any of the published surveys of ADCOM preferences.
 
Last edited:
Goro said:
Every screener and Adcom member will have their own priority as to what to look at. There is no master schema or template.

I look at age first. Then major, degree, schools attended, stats, courses taken and grades, ECs, LORs and essays last.
Click to expand...
Isn't it discriminatory to look at age first? No wonder you push for gap years despite high stats and good ECs.
 
LaughingGas10 said:
can you elaborate ? Is this in the order of importance of the important metrics, age>major>degree>schools attended>stats or just a general statement ?

The only time I look at the age on the application is when it is the extremes : 19 year old kid, or a 40 year old applicant. Otherwise, quite honestly i dont differentiate between a 23 and 26 year old applicant, outside of the realm of considering one as a traditional applicant with limited life experiences and expecting a non traditional to have more extensive life experiences.
Click to expand...
The youngest applicants sometimes have.....well, deficits in maturity.

The order I look at these items isn't in importance, as all things in the app are important.
 
dirtcobain said:
it might just be questions about their age, not necessarily discriminatory. maybe something that would reveal if they're mature enough, or what they learned from their gap years
Click to expand...
So Goro assumes age and maturity are synonymous and that's OK? Lot of candidates take gap years to address the GPA or EC deficiency not to gain additional experiences or maturity.
 
Last edited:
When were you complete with most secondaries? If you were complete September or later, I would say it’s likely your app just hasn’t thoroughly been reviewed yet.

I also had a W on my transcript and ended up fine so I wouldn’t worry about that. Adcoms are forgiving of a few academic mishaps so don’t beat yourself up over it

ive seen several posts of people getting IIs in January and February and getting accepted. Best of luck to us both
 
Goro said:
The youngest applicants sometimes have.....well, deficits in maturity.

The order I look at these items isn't in importance, as all things in the app are important.
Click to expand...
I am sure sometimes older applicants have deficits in maturity as well.

Overall, looks like we the applicants are at the mercy of the reader. Are they in a good mood? Do they like your height and weight or eye color, Do you a full windsor or half windsor tie😛, Are having a good day at home etc.
 
r2med said:
I am sure sometimes older applicants have deficits in maturity as well.

Overall, looks like we the applicants are at the mercy of the reader. Are they in a good mood? Do they like your height and weight or eye color, Do you a full windsor or half windsor tie😛, Are having a good day at home etc.
Click to expand...
You should give a little credit to the reviewers. They are rational people too. And most people who lack in maturity are very unaware or think they are mature for their age.

This whole process is easy to critique when you're not responsible for sifting through thousands of applicants.
 
athorcommens said:
You should give a little credit to the reviewers. They are rational people too. And most people who lack in maturity are very unaware or think they are mature for their age.

This whole process is easy to critique when you're not responsible for sifting through thousands of applicants.
Click to expand...
Agree 100% that it is hard to sift through thousands of applications, especially when they are all stereotypical. Hard to look at it as "Oh Well" when you are an applicant who has worked your whatever off, but your future is determined by someone's mood, right? Anyway, guess it is difficult from the reviewer side as well as the applicant side.
 
Age has a LOT to do with where someone should be in life, especially for med school applicants. If you think otherwise, you’re wrong. An older student applying had better be able to show success in another career while demonstrating a conscience and determined decision to make a career change. A young applicant better show experience and maturity. I am not an adcom, but if I saw the application from a 21 y/o, I would want to know that they have a life and interest outside of medicine, that they have time to get to know themselves and their community outside of the college library. If they have never had a job, how in the world could they know that medicine is the only place they could ever find happiness/satisfaction? I would call it an immature mindset to assume that age does NOT play a role in understanding an applicant. You can’t offer/deny a spot because of age but you can use age to determine what can be expected of an applicant with that much life experience.
 
acstylin said:
Age has a LOT to do with where someone should be in life, especially for med school applicants. If you think otherwise, you’re wrong. An older student applying had better be able to show success in another career while demonstrating a conscience and determined decision to make a career change. A young applicant better show experience and maturity. I am not an adcom, but if I saw the application from a 21 y/o, I would want to know that they have a life and interest outside of medicine, that they have time to get to know themselves and their community outside of the college library. If they have never had a job, how in the world could they know that medicine is the only place they could ever find happiness/satisfaction? I would call it an immature mindset to assume that age does NOT play a role in understanding an applicant. You can’t offer/deny a spot because of age but you can use age to determine what can be expected of an applicant with that much life experience.
Click to expand...
So, if one were to choose computer science career, they are ok with <21 y-o, but its not for medicine?
And if certain med schools wanted only older people, why even take the fees from younger applicants?
 
acstylin said:
Age has a LOT to do with where someone should be in life, especially for med school applicants. If you think otherwise, you’re wrong. An older student applying had better be able to show success in another career while demonstrating a conscience and determined decision to make a career change. A young applicant better show experience and maturity. I am not an adcom, but if I saw the application from a 21 y/o, I would want to know that they have a life and interest outside of medicine, that they have time to get to know themselves and their community outside of the college library. If they have never had a job, how in the world could they know that medicine is the only place they could ever find happiness/satisfaction? I would call it an immature mindset to assume that age does NOT play a role in understanding an applicant. You can’t offer/deny a spot because of age but you can use age to determine what can be expected of an applicant with that much life experience.
Click to expand...
Definitely. Many students have never had a job and boy does it show.
 
r2med said:
So, if one were to choose computer science career, they are ok with <21 y-o, but its not for medicine?
And if certain med schools wanted only older people, why even take the fees from younger applicants?
Click to expand...
What does computer science have to do with medicine? Apples and oranges.

It's not a hard rule that 21 y.o.s are too young or immature.

This isn't a black/white issue. Don't view it like one
 
athorcommens said:
What does computer science have to do with medicine? Apples and oranges.

It's not a hard rule that 21 y.o.s are too young or immature.

This isn't a black/white issue. Don't view it like one
Click to expand...
Age can be one of the factors. Not the only nor the main.
 
KnightDoc said:
This^^^^. Maybe a better question for @Talldoctor96 would be whether he knows whether or not apps are subject to a stat screen before apps even get to a reader? If so, then it is already established that an application clears a minimum bar necessary for admission, and maybe it makes sense for readers to look at stats at the end so as not to be influenced by them when forming an opinion based on the rest of the application.
Click to expand...
This is exactly it. The reader is aware that they meet a certain priority/ threshold.
 
r2med said:
So, if one were to choose computer science career, they are ok with <21 y-o, but its not for medicine?
And if certain med schools wanted only older people, why even take the fees from younger applicants?
Click to expand...
Clearly you didn’t understand my post. I don’t want to hijack this poor applicant’s thread that has found it going down a strange road so I won’t bother responding. Good luck fiestchika!
 
r2med said:
I am sure sometimes older applicants have deficits in maturity as well.

Overall, looks like we the applicants are at the mercy of the reader. Are they in a good mood? Do they like your height and weight or eye color, Do you a full windsor or half windsor tie😛, Are having a good day at home etc.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, someone has been triggered.

You've also never done Admissions, I see.

Maturity has never been raised in any older candidate we've interviewed.
 
acstylin said:
Clearly you didn’t understand my post. I don’t want to hijack this poor applicant’s thread that has found it going down a strange road so I won’t bother responding. Good luck fiestchika!
Click to expand...
Agree about not wanting to hijack any further and about wishing luck to OP.
 
acstylin said:
Age has a LOT to do with where someone should be in life, especially for med school applicants. If you think otherwise, you’re wrong. An older student applying had better be able to show success in another career while demonstrating a conscience and determined decision to make a career change. A young applicant better show experience and maturity. I am not an adcom, but if I saw the application from a 21 y/o, I would want to know that they have a life and interest outside of medicine, that they have time to get to know themselves and their community outside of the college library. If they have never had a job, how in the world could they know that medicine is the only place they could ever find happiness/satisfaction? I would call it an immature mindset to assume that age does NOT play a role in understanding an applicant. You can’t offer/deny a spot because of age but you can use age to determine what can be expected of an applicant with that much life experience.
Click to expand...
Great points in general, but when the hell did the sentence in bold become a requirement for admission to the profession?

I have wanted to be a doctor since I was a little kid, and I have been working my ass off ever since to try to make it a reality. I have never had a real, full time job, and I have no idea whether or not medicine is the only place in the world I could ever find happiness. Does this make me ineligible for entry into the profession, regardless of my achievements and desire, because there are probably other things I can do that would also give me satisfaction?????
 
KnightDoc said:
Great points in general, but when the hell did the sentence in bold become a requirement for admission to the profession?

I have wanted to be a doctor since I was a little kid, and I have been working my ass off ever since to try to make it a reality. I have never had a real, full time job, and I have no idea whether or not medicine is the only place in the world I could ever find happiness. Does this make me ineligible for entry into the profession, regardless of my achievements and desire, because there are probably other things I can do that would also give me satisfaction?????
Click to expand...

I agree in general with you.

80% of the doctors in our times, never held a long term job prior to joining medical school and are doing fine. I used to train BS-MD students (majority of whom have never held a job, and have been career students straight out of high school) at one of my former medical schools, which is in the T30 category, and they had no issues adjusting or being mature enough, and did as well as the traditional MD students.

In the United Kingdom and other developed countries, medical students enter medical school and the profession at a much younger age, without having had a full time job, and haven't had major issues.

I think, due to the demand of getting into medical school, and limited positions with a 40% acceptance, the gap year became a trend, and now there are certain people (mostly adcom members who are not practising physicians) who are pushing this trend of making it longer to get into medical school. This trend of gap years and having a full year job before going into medical school, is definitely being talked up more in SDN than in real life. If you talk to most physicians/surgeons, or medical school deans , there is not much belief that an extra year of working , does something magical to improve the decision making of becoming a physician, or make us any better as a doctor. I think if a student is productive, he can certainly fit in enough extracurriculars, and somebody like you who has always wanted to be a doctor, can certainly get it done in your undergraduate years, without having to take a mandatory gap year.

Gap year is definitely not detrimental, and probably helpful for some people. If youthdom was infinite, and economic issues of education were not real, then there are no issues with doing one or maybe several gap years. The other issue, from a purely society standpoint, MOST (not all) students who take a gap year, land up procrastinating about retaking the MCAT, being tense about the admission process, and doing things to merely checkoff boxes for medical college admissions. Does this really benefit society to have these extremely high performing, highly skilled individuals spend a year of their career doing these activities ?

This uncertainty of getting into medical school has created a ripple effect among high school students who are tearing their hair apart to get into BS-MD programs (partly could be from pressure from parents/ peers). I do advise these students to take the more traditional route, do their UG at a good school, take the time to mature and then get into medical school, if they think they like it. The more concerning trend , that bothers me is the blossoming of BS-DO programs, the students are being enticed into it again because of the uncertainties. These are high caliber students who then have to do their Undergraduate education at a sub-par UG college and then go to a DO program (i do not have issues with the DO program, it is the subpar UG experience that bothers me). I suspect, the majority of them could have done so much better in their UG education, with a more fulfilling experience, and maybe some of them would not even go into medicine based on their experiences.
 
Last edited:
From someone in their second cycle,

1. The advice given here is good. There's no date when you should start improving your app. With your stats I would say the biggest thing you can do is get more clinical work/volunteer experience. Although I don't know how much you already have, I think it will do the most for your application given that the ship to improve your GPA has sailed and experience is very important to adcoms. (I EMT'd and volunteered at a hospital, I know these options are limited right now due to covid, so your just going to have to fight for some position)

2. Don't be too discouraged by no II's at this point. You (and I) are not in the same pool of applicants that are getting picked for interviews right from the get-go. I received 2 interviews last cycle in January, and many schools interview passed that.

3. You should begin preparing for reapplication, yes, but don't stress over it. It was MUCH easier to reapply than I initially thought, and I know how hard it can be to motivate yourself to begin reapp with so much uncertainty remaining in your cycle. I completed my entire reapplication in May and I think it was loads better than my first application. You will need to re-write your PS, but that's about it unless you think your work/activities were poorly written. (I added two more and just improved all the others a lil bit). I wouldn't even contact your letter writers quite yet IMO, and what is nice is you can literally just have them resend their old letters, it isn't frowned upon.

So TLDR, get some more clinical experience and give it a lil more time before you seriously begin working on your reapplication. Feel free to hit me up with any questions about reapplication. I currently have 2 II's this cycle already (one today actually lol) and I expect I'll get a few more in December and January.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Worrying won't do you any good and isn't yet warranted. IIs will continue to go out and at many programs they will be extended through January.

At the same time, now is great time to begin planning for a reapplication -- if it's necessary. Evaluate areas of your application -- both your qualification and your presentation of those qualifications -- to find areas of improvement. Then start improving them so that you will be ready to apply early next cycle. OR if you feel you want to wait a year (or more) to reapply, figure out what you want to do with this time. And do it.

And if you start now to think about reapplying and don't get the IIs, you will be so much ahead of the game that you won't need to worry even then.

Best,
Linda
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Goro said:
Hmmm, someone has been triggered.

You've also never done Admissions, I see.

Maturity has never been raised in any older candidate we've interviewed.
Click to expand...
Please don't use "triggered" in such a way. That's ableist and it's not appropriate.
themighty.com

We Need to Stop Misusing the Word 'Triggered'

"We shouldn’t mock it, we shouldn’t use it as an insult and we shouldn’t pretend it isn’t serious."
themighty.com themighty.com
 
Sounds like they'd love to hear that. You understood this was a vital time period in which spending quality time with loved ones and ensuring mental well-being mattered more then improving your application (marignally). At least, this is what I've gathered from reading about it, that they want a well rounded person with solid decision making skills, and high mental well being.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Interview season goes through Feb and March. There is always someone that drops that last interview day, and there is someone who always gets that last invite a day or two the last interview. We are still 3-4 months away from that, so you have a shot until the last possible interview day. Remember that.
 
fiestchicka said:
and is it too late to apply DO?
Click to expand...

It is not too late to apply DO if that is what you want to do, especially if you have a state DO school or significant ties to a state with a public DO school. I applied last November and I'm just finishing my first semester now. Many DO schools accept applications until March or so.
 
It would be better if there wasn't that gap, but the medical schools are very aware of the pandemic and its impact. They know that applicants had more trouble finding jobs and volunteer positions. Make the most of what you do from December forward. Plus volunteering 2x per week and "exploring your hobbies" could be of interest also. It depends on what you actually did to explore those hobbies and while volunteering.

In a nutshell, make the most of what you have done, change what you can change, and don't worry about what you can't.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
blueberryscone said:
all i read was "privilege" "privilege" "privilegeeeeeee"

lmao no, this does not make you ineligible for entry into medicine, but it does make you come off as immature and ignorant

maturity and age are not necessarily hand in hand, but typically older applicants know that medicine is not their entire life. you need to incorporate other hobbies and activities in your life that can bring you enduring fulfillment, because medicine is incredibly rewarding but its also stressful and taxing and there are harsh inequities about the profession that can take a toll on you, which you don't even realize
Click to expand...

This 100%.

Personally, I sought out programs with higher proportions of non-traditional students. RA’s, RN’s, PhD’s, teachers, bankers, etc. all have rich, exciting perspectives and make curriculum components like team-based learning exercises so much more fun. Fresh college grads generally lack a sense of nuance.

Worldly experience isn’t a requirement per se but it will make you a better doctor and a more exciting peer to have in med school.
 
borrawin95 said:
This 100%.

Personally, I sought out programs with higher proportions of non-traditional students. RA’s, RN’s, PhD’s, teachers, bankers, etc. all have rich, exciting perspectives and make curriculum components like team-based learning exercises so much more fun. Fresh college grads generally lack a sense of nuance.

Worldly experience isn’t a requirement per se but it will make you a better doctor and a more exciting peer to have in med school.
Click to expand...

how do you find out the proportion of non-traditional students in a program ? msar, usnwr, individually from the medical schools inside data or just talking to people and getting an idea subjectively of the proportion ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top