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Chelsea FC said:
Think PM&R gets pain really well for shorter hours
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Eh, it’s not anything special. PM&R colleagues are getting paid 275k for 40 hours a week. It’s good but very comparable to any other specialty. Derm-moh surgery and optho-retina or high volume lasik on the other hand. Most are easily making 1.2M in the south. Decent hours too. 40-50.
 
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So assuming you don't care about patient population at all - and assuming you aren't looking to practice unscrupulous medicine - you're looking at four categories:

1) Private practice outpatient surgeons, particularly things like ortho or ophtho
2) Highly specialized outpatient subspecialties, like derm and medical oncology, can have pretty high salaries
3) Shift work inpatient jobs, like EM and hospitalists. The salaries don't look enormous but you're talking about people who work < 40 hours/week on average. I have friends out of residency walking into hospitalist/neurohospitalist jobs paying close to/over $300/hour.
4) Jobs where you deal with huge volumes of "challenging" patients. Non-procedural pain management, inpatient addiction medicine, etc.


premedtx123 said:
Sounds appealing. Not interested in derm but optho is cool. Is it competitive to match into a optho residency?
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You should see what interests you in med school, not what seems lucrative. I know a bunch of people who chased the work-life + high pay dream, matched EM or rad onc, and are now seriously regretting their decision. Find a specialty that you'd do for $100/hour because you love it, then be pleasantly surprised when you're offered way more, rather than pick a specialty only because you're expecting $X/hour and later realize no one is going to actually offer you even half that amount.
 
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painfuldoc said:
Eh, it’s not anything special. PM&R colleagues are getting paid 275k for 40 hours a week. It’s good but very comparable to any other specialty. Derm-moh surgery and optho-retina or high volume lasik on the other hand. Most are easily making 1.2M in the south. Decent hours too. 40-50.
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Is Retina really 40-50 AND making 1.2mil? I thought it was achievable but with 60+ hrs. Plus Retina has emergencies right compared to the other two
 
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Radiology - median salary (per AAMC.org) is 423,000 - thats 35250 per month, or 8812 per week before taxes. Average hours per week is 58 hours, so that is 151.94 dollars per hours.

Derm - 419000 median, 45.4 hours a week - 192.27 dollars per hour.

ophthalmology - 360,000, 51 hours - 147 per hours.
 
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so i do believe that money and work/life balance are important. But do choose from the stuff you like, - shadow ophthalmology, see how you feel. If you choose just because of money, - you will hate yourself at some point. Do what you love AND what brings you money. life is too short.

i would suggest asking yourself these questions, - do you like to socialize with people the whole day? Do you like "clinic"? (back to back patients?) - ophtho, dermatology/
Do you like being along a lot? Do back to back patients stress you out? - look into radiology. At least this is how i look at it.
 
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premedtx123 said:
It might be a stupid question but wouldn't radiology expose you to radiation thus increases the cancer risk?

Oncology is another specialty I am interested in and I am glad someone mentioned it get paid well... What's your opinion on medical vs surgical oncology? If I pursue the medical oncology route, do I need to do an IM residency and then fellowship, or is there a way to match into an oncology residency directly?
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No. Radiologists sit in a dark room reading studies. Could be at home or somewhere in the hospital. They are not close to Xray, CT machines.

There are night job rad out there that pay 500k/yr to do 1 week on and 2 wks off.
 
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premedtx123 said:
So bad I hate derm. It is just not my thing. Plus it is very difficult to match into derm isn’t it?

Is optho difficult to get in as well?
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Almost as difficult as derm. If derm is a 10 (scale 1-10), ophthalmology is arguably an 8-9.

You are talking about a specialty in which you can make 500k/yr working 45-50 hrs/wk without dealing much with the bean counters, so it won't be easy to get into.

Med students go for the $$$, prestige and lifestyle.
 
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premedtx123 said:
So bad I hate derm. It is just not my thing. Plus it is very difficult to match into derm isn’t it?

Is optho difficult to get in as well?
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well, average step 1 for ophthalmology is 244, which is pretty high. that is higher than radiology. But i cant speak to how "tight" that number is.
 
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premedtx123 said:
So bad I hate derm. It is just not my thing. Plus it is very difficult to match into derm isn’t it?

Is optho difficult to get in as well?
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Yes. Big research and networking requirements for both fields.

Don’t scoff at the step score stuff. Everyone’s a “good test taker now.”
 
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Splenda88 said:
Almost as difficult as derm. If derm is a 10 (scale 1-10), ophthalmology is arguably an 8-9.

You are talking about a specialty in which you can make 500k/yr working 45-50 hrs/wk without dealing much with the bean counters, so it won't be easy to get into.

Med students go for the $$$, prestige and lifestyle.
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Only the procedural subspecialties in ophtho have the potential to make 500k+ without working insane hours, and those require additional 1-2 yrs of fellowship training after ophtho residency. And you probably won't get the big bucks right out of fellowship either. More likely to get taken advantage of as a new grad by the senior partners in a group for the first few years, and IF you become a partner and build up a large patient volume can you make the much. Also insurance reimbursements for ophtho procedures has dropped significantly over the past few decades (for example cataract surgery used to pay thousands of dollars per procedure but nowadays it's so little that the profit margins are tiny) so you'll have to rely on elective cash-based procedures.

In contrast, general ophtho (which involves mostly medical management and no procedures but also doesn't require additional fellowship training) makes way less, median closer to around $300k per year which is only slightly higher than primary care.
 
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premedtx123 said:
244 is like 75 percentile right? That isn't too bad I guess? I am a pretty good test taker and 75 percentile seems pretty doable. But with step 1 being p/f I don't know how much my test taking score could help me. I guess I can do well in step 2 and hope that a high step 2 will help me then.
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244 is hard. Dont forget, this is 75 percentile not from people who were in your undergrad. People in medical school are very smart. Is 244 doable? maybe. depends on the person . but it is NOT easy at all. You'll see.
 
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collegestud2013 said:
Only the procedural subspecialties in ophtho have the potential to make 500k+ without working insane hours, and those require additional 1-2 yrs of fellowship training after ophtho residency. And you probably won't get the big bucks right out of fellowship either. More likely to get taken advantage of as a new grad by the senior partners in a group for the first few years, and IF you become a partner and build up a large patient volume can you make the much. Also insurance reimbursements for ophtho procedures has dropped significantly over the past few decades (for example cataract surgery used to pay thousands of dollars per procedure but nowadays it's so little that the profit margins are tiny) so you'll have to rely on elective cash-based procedures.

In contrast, general ophtho (which involves mostly medical management and no procedures but also doesn't require additional fellowship training) makes way less, median closer to around $300k per year which is only slightly higher than primary care.
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I do not trust these MGMA salary surveys. I got 330k where I am now as a hospitalist and if you look into MGMA, they say average should be ~260k. They can't even recruit hospitalists there since the nearest metro is close to 2 hrs away.


forums.studentdoctor.net

How much does a comprehensive ophthalmologist make?

I know this is highly variable but just wanted to see some actual numbers if possible so that I know what to expect once I graduate! Seems like a taboo in our specialty
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
 
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Splenda88 said:
I do not trust these MGMA salary surveys. I got 330k where I am now as a hospitalist and if you look into MGMA, they say average should be ~260k. They can't even recruit hospitalists there since the nearest metro is close to 2 hrs away.


forums.studentdoctor.net

How much does a comprehensive ophthalmologist make?

I know this is highly variable but just wanted to see some actual numbers if possible so that I know what to expect once I graduate! Seems like a taboo in our specialty
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
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Mgma is actually just a tool to bring down salaries by hospitals. It's been talked about by attendings in several different specialties on here.

Ophtho is the answer, OP. The key is vertical integration of business. Or child psych in a rich/affluent area.
 
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premedtx123 said:
If optho doesn't make a lot of money why is it so difficult to match into then? A 244 step 1 is just a few points shy from the average of matched neurosurgeons.
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yeah and neurosurgery is one of the most competitive specialties out there. Look, you really have no idea how hard step 1 and 2 is, so when you make statements like this now, before you even get to medical school it seems a bit arrogant. Just wait and see for yourself. they are very hard.
 
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premedtx123 said:
If optho doesn't make a lot of money why is it so difficult to match into then? A 244 step 1 is just a few points shy from the average of matched neurosurgeons.
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They do make a lot of money. The salaries you see are generally not partner salaries and everyone making great money in medicine knows not to fill those surveys out. Ophtho makes a lot of money in private practice due to vertical integration of business in practice which is not possible in most other specialties. It is unique in this aspect so when you see 300k listed salary that doesn't take in to account so many aspects of their practice setups.
 
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collegestud2013 said:
Only the procedural subspecialties in ophtho have the potential to make 500k+ without working insane hours, and those require additional 1-2 yrs of fellowship training after ophtho residency. And you probably won't get the big bucks right out of fellowship either. More likely to get taken advantage of as a new grad by the senior partners in a group for the first few years, and IF you become a partner and build up a large patient volume can you make the much. Also insurance reimbursements for ophtho procedures has dropped significantly over the past few decades (for example cataract surgery used to pay thousands of dollars per procedure but nowadays it's so little that the profit margins are tiny) so you'll have to rely on elective cash-based procedures.

In contrast, general ophtho (which involves mostly medical management and no procedures but also doesn't require additional fellowship training) makes way less, median closer to around $300k per year which is only slightly higher than primary care.
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From what I am told cataract surgery used to take like an hour decades ago but now can be done in 8 mins, so the compensation drop is expected. It might be more than what was deserved, but it hasn't completely crushed ophthos income potential. Plenty of cataract work horses clear 7 figures from what I am told. Obviously you won't make 7 figs working 40-50 hours a week though.

Also ophtho seems very innovative and as soon as new procedures come out, they will be compensated highly and then drop as that is how the cycle goes.
 
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M&L said:
yeah and neurosurgery is one of the most competitive specialties out there. Look, you really have no idea how hard step 1 and 2 is, so when you make statements like this now, before you even get to medical school it seems a bit arrogant. Just wait and see for yourself. they are very hard.
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I think you misinterpreted what they were saying. They were confused why it would be so close to competitiveness to neurosurgery when neurosurgeons make bank and ophtho allegedly doesn't. I don't think they were insulting the competitiveness of either field.
 
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Neopolymath said:
Mgma is actually just a tool to bring down salaries by hospitals. It's been talked about by attendings in several different specialties on here.

Ophtho is the answer, OP. The key is vertical integration of business. Or child psych in a rich/affluent area.
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You confirm what I suspected.
 
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Prehealth1011 said:
EM has one of the highest hourly rates
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That's rapidly changing from the oversupply of EM physicians (mostly from a combination of insane residency expansion and increased reliance of midlevels to staff EDs). The high RVUs they produce still justify a $200+/hr salary but when there's a oversupply that's probably not most employed ED docs will be getting and will be working more for less pay.
 
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premedtx123 said:
I wonder if there is data /study that predicts one's step percentile to mcat percentile? I have very high mcat. But I am in a mid-tier med school and I am worried that will limit my research/networking. Not a lot of people matched into competitive residencies in my school each year 🙁
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Very little correlation. Forget your MCAT score, once you are in school it doesn't matter anymore. Some classmates beat my MCAT score by 4+ points, and I beat their Step by 9+ points.
 
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Student189045 said:
I think you misinterpreted what they were saying. They were confused why it would be so close to competitiveness to neurosurgery when neurosurgeons make bank and ophtho allegedly doesn't. I don't think they were insulting the competitiveness of either field.
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oh i see. could be. I was misguided by the earlier posts where OP said that 244 doesnt sound hard because it is only 75th percentile... made my blood boil a bit. hahahha
 
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Captain_Falcon said:
Very little correlation. Forget your MCAT score, once you are in school it doesn't matter anymore. Some classmates beat my MCAT score by 4+ points, and I beat their Step by 9+ points.
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There's actually a decently strong positive correlation. On the old MCAT scale (out of 36), every 1 point increase in MCAT translates to on average a 2 point increase in Step 1 score. Obviously there are outliers But MCAT is a much stronger predictor of Step 1 scores than undergrad GPA (which obviously varies widely based on your undergrad school and major).
 
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premedtx123 said:
Apologies if I sounded arrogant. I do understand it is hard and competitive to match into those specialities. I was just confused why the percentile doesn't sound crazy like a 90+ percentile or something. But I got your point.
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these are AVERAGES, so you will have a range. The more modest your school is, the worse your clinical grades, the less research you have, the better your step might have to be. There are people out there who might have 5-6 publications in ophthalmology or neurosurgery, including first author ones, and 5-6-7 second author, who took a research year in prestigious residencies in corresponding fields, and had away rotations in those residencies later. They might "get away" with lower score, and get in way better academic residencies than those guys with 90s percentiles, you know? So dont think of it as an absolute number. It is a range. And step is just one of the factors. But it does give you an idea of how to compare these specialties between each other.

Neurosurgery has a very long tough residency. VERY long. VERY tough. A lot of people do not consider it for that reason alone. I think if hours in neurosurgery residency were reduced to more easily manageable, the average step would probably go up.
 
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premedtx123 said:
Appreciate your insight. Kind of regretting choosing my current school now. Only ~1 person/yr from my school matched into optho in programs I never heard about. The chance seems so slim. How do someone manages to have 5-6 publications in 3 years of med school? I am not a big research person. Will a competitive step score make up for weak research
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looks, the reasons they dont match might be because they simply do not consider it. It is possible that it is underrepresented in your school. So, do research in ophthalmology, take research year in a nice residency if you have to, then do away rotations in a nice place, kill step 2, and you will match! just because others do not do it, doesnt mean you wont.

Edit - i dont know about research. find ophthalmology PD here and ask them a question. Go to ophthalmology forum
 
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premedtx123 said:
Appreciate your insight. Kind of regretting choosing my current school now. Only ~1 person/yr from my school matched into optho in programs I never heard about. The chance seems so slim. How do someone manages to have 5-6 publications in 3 years of med school? I am not a big research person. Will a competitive step score make up for weak research
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A premed or m1 has no idea what a good program is in most specialties. So, frankly, it means absolutely nothing that you have never heard of them. Trust me, it's completely unimportant for you to recognize the program and pretty much impossible for you to gauge anyways even if you did randomly know the name from some other thing like the program's undergrad.
 
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Captain_Falcon said:
Very little correlation. Forget your MCAT score, once you are in school it doesn't matter anymore. Some classmates beat my MCAT score by 4+ points, and I beat their Step by 9+ points.
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The only score in the MCAT that has any correlation to how you will do on the Steps is BB. If you have a 132 on BB, you shouldn't have too much of a trouble getting 240 on Step 1.
 
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premedtx123 said:
Yes you are right that I don't know how to gauge a residency program's reputation (how did I find out this information btw?) My bigger concern is that those programs are in states or cities I never heard of...
I am worried that for competitive specialities like ophtho, even if I did match, I will have to be really flexible about the locations of the program, which means I might not be able to match into a program close to home and will have to move to a city or state far far away from home in a undesirable location. But I guess beggars can't be choosy?
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you wanna be close to new york, right? (looked at post history, correct me if i am wrong). yeah..... to match ophthalmology in new york, if this is what you want, youll have to work VERY hard for. Go to ophthalmology forum and start asking questions. FInd PD there who answers questions ("ask me anything" threads). I dont think we can really help you in career advising in ophthalmology.

Word of the wise though, - i completely understand where you are coming from (i am an empathetic person when i want to be), but dont say things like this at school: "easy to get 244", "undesired location", "ive never heard of that city", "i did very well on MCAT", also, to add to that list (stuff you havent said) - "that exam was easy", etc. This will piss a lot of people off REALLY quick. i am already rolling my eyes here, but trying to do my best to help you and to be nice anyway (mostly because i think you are probably just really young and do not know any better).

A lot of people who grew up near big cities, especially on the coast, and who havent travelled much in the US have the same thoughts when they start medical school. But then, as they get exposed to more things, they realize that the world is a much bigger place. For example, Mayo Clinic, which is one of the best hospitals in the country is in Rochester, MN for example. Some of the best residencies in the country are in OH, MI, and other non-coastal states. And when you start getting exposed to that knowledge, and see the level of attendings and faculty in those places, and realize how prestigious those programs are, and realize how much you can learn from them, you dont care if you have to go to the MOON for residency for those few years, if it means that you will invest in your future.

Also, a lot of "undesirable" locations are also some of the cheapest to live in...... so you can actually rent a townhouse vs a room in new york for example on the resident salary. You can start a family during residency (financially), etc.
 
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premedtx123 said:
Yes you are right that I don't know how to gauge a residency program's reputation (how did I find out this information btw?) My bigger concern is that those programs are in states or cities I never heard of...
I am worried that for competitive specialities like ophtho, even if I did match, I will have to be really flexible about the locations of the program, which means I might not be able to match into a program close to home and will have to move to a city or state far far away from home in a undesirable location. But I guess beggars can't be choosy?
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No one can be picky about the location when considering ophtho. I am at a T5 and people don't match easily into ophtho. In order to publish in ophtho, you really have to be at one of those powerhouses. It's a very tough specialty to publish in.
 
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look, the only reason you are asking these questions about ophthalmology now is because we told you earlier it is one of the highest paying ones. This is a horrible reason to choose a specialty. Give yourself a chance to get to know different things and fall in love with something. Find your calling. You owe yourself that much, after working hard to get into medical school. You can make decent money in any specialty. But if you dont love it, you are signing up for pretty miserable 30-40 years of your life.
 
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M&L said:
look, the only reason you are asking these questions about ophthalmology now is because we told you earlier it is one of the highest paying ones. This is a horrible reason to choose a specialty. Give yourself a chance to get to know different things and fall in love with something. Find your calling. You owe yourself that much, after working hard to get into medical school. You can make decent money in any specialty. But if you dont love it, you are signing up for pretty miserable 30-40 years of your life.
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Except ID, there will never be any money in ID🤣
 
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premedtx123 said:
If optho doesn't make a lot of money why is it so difficult to match into then? A 244 step 1 is just a few points shy from the average of matched neurosurgeons.
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Very low hours compared to other specialities, good mix of clinical and surgery, good compensation, the procedures and surgeries you do make an immediate difference so patients are typically very happy with you (expect dry eye patients. They hate you). My dad is an ophtho and I was a certified ophthalmic technician before med school so I’ve been around the field a ton. My dad has worked 35 hours a week with no call for the last 25 years. It’s a good field for sure, which is why it is competitive
 
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Cornfed101 said:
Very low hours compared to other specialities, good mix of clinical and surgery, good compensation, the procedures and surgeries you do make an immediate difference so patients are typically very happy with you (expect dry eye patients. They hate you). My dad is an ophtho and I was a certified ophthalmic technician before med school so I’ve been around the field a ton. My dad has worked 35 hours a week with no call for the last 25 years. It’s a good field for sure, which is why it is competitive
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as a dry eye patient myself (post surgery) - yeah. I hate you 🙂)) hahahaha kidding. I knew what i was getting into. But yeah hahahah
 
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Lawpy said:
I'm lost as to what we're talking about and why is this thread 2 pages already
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summary - M1 who just matriculated, grew up in a big city, asked which specialty has big pay check, and little hours. Ppl suggested radiology, derm, ophthalmology. OP doesnt like skin, radiology. Now they are asking questions about ophthalmology. Doesnt want to do research, and wants to stay close to home (i think new york area? might be wrong).
1. I am trying to explain that choosing specialty because of money alone is wrong.
2. THat 244 on step 1 is not easy to get (OP is under the impression that since it is "only" 75th percentile, its easy, because they did well on MCAT, - i am explaining to them that everyone in med school is smart, and 75th percentile in med school is NOT the same as in undergrad).
3. That US is a very big place and there are a lot of great residencies outside of big coastal cities (OP used words like "undesired locations", " cities ive never even heard of", and a few other things that made my eyes roll).

yeah, thats pretty much it.
 
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premedtx123 said:
Please no judgment here please. Current M1 considering what specialty to pursue in the future. I know lots of specialties pay you well but the hours are long. I value work-life balance so the total compensation is not as important as hourly rate to me.

so my question is, which specialty in your opinion has the highest hourly rate? I am not interested in skin so no dermatology please.

TIA for your input!
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Splenda88 said:
Did not realize that OP was a premed.
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?
 
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M&L said:
summary - M1 who just matriculated, grew up in a big city, asked which specialty has big pay check, and little hours. Ppl suggested radiology, derm, ophthalmology. OP doesnt like skin, radiology. Now they are asking questions about ophthalmology. Doesnt want to do research, and wants to stay close to home (i think new york area? might be wrong).
1. I am trying to explain that choosing specialty because of money alone is wrong.
2. THat 244 on step 1 is not easy to get (OP is under the impression that since it is "only" 75th percentile, its easy, because they did well on MCAT, - i am explaining to them that everyone in med school is smart, and 75th percentile in med school is NOT the same as in undergrad).
3. That US is a very big place and there are a lot of great residencies outside of big coastal cities (OP used words like "undesired locations", " cities ive never even heard of", and a few other things that made my eyes roll).

yeah, thats pretty much it.
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Ah thanks, derm/ophtho came to my mind too, though i was also thinking surgical subs. The Steps/MCAT discussion completely confused me and i got lost at that point onwards, so appreciate the summary
 
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radiology is actually a great specialty. amazing hours, even during residency. Can even work from home if you want. Good pay.

but regardless, - i think picking specialty just because of money is a HORRIBLE idea. now if you love several somewhat equally, comparing money is totally fine in my book. Even smart. But going for something just because of money - sounds like a very long depressing life. but maybe i am wrong. Maybe for some people it doesnt matter if they like what they do or not, and financial motivation is enough. i dont know. I couldnt do it.

the reason i think love for specialty is important, - you will be treating patients who need your help, who rely on you. to help them well you need to know what you are doing, sometimes dig far to find whats going on. If you dont care about specialty, how can you really do that well? i dont know
 
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M&L said:
radiology is actually a great specialty. amazing hours, even during residency. Can even work from home if you want. Good pay.

but regardless, - i think picking specialty just because of money is a HORRIBLE idea. now if you love several somewhat equally, comparing money is totally fine in my book. Even smart. But going for something just because of money - sounds like a very long depressing life. but maybe i am wrong. Maybe for some people it doesnt matter if they like what they do or not, and financial motivation is enough. i dont know. I couldnt do it.

they reason i think love for specialty is important, - you will be treating patients who need your help, who rely on you. to help them well you need to know what you are doing, sometimes dig far to find whats going on. If you dont care about specialty, how can you really do that well? i dont know
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It's horrible if you can't tolerate at all that specialty, but is not a bad idea to use money as your number #1 criterion.
 
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Splenda88 said:
It's horrible if you can't tolerate at all that specialty, but is not a bad idea to use money as your number #1 criterion.
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i mean, i hear you. There is a reason i am not going into peds, for example. I do want the money. But i am saying, - in my personal opinion, - that OP needs to at least try to fall in love with something, you know?
 
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Can't comment on private practice ophtho, but if you want strictly 9-5 and anything else is a dealbreaker, I see ophtho residents at the hospital at 3 am all the time.

The true bottom line is that it's less what you do than where you work. If you're OK with working in rural MS (nothing wrong with MS, but I get recruitment stuff from there all the time) expect to make three-four times what you'd make in a major East Coast city. OK with working in a smaller town in the Midwest? I know family medicine docs out there who make $250/hour+ out there. There are nocturnist gigs where you'll spent 70% of your shift asleep and still make bank. Etc.

Any field has the potential to make you quite wealthy. But many medical students have never had a real job before. You might be surprised how far $60,000 a year as a resident goes, let alone several times that as an attending. But it's not worth it if you dread going to work every day.
 
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